Did Early African Christians Accept Early African Religion? | The Bisrat Podcast w/ Dr. Vince Bantu

[@uvic4027]

Dr. Vince Bantu, I listened respectfully, and I’m all for recovering our African culture and form of Christianity, but not with syncretism, divination, and going against Scripture.

[@viviennebaptiste]

Little do people know, Christianity was in Africa and the Middle East before the Europeans received it. The fact that Christianity reached the Europeans shows that with or without colonization, Christianity was bound to spread

[@tfmtrueformmotivations6463]

I’m up to 38:02 and what I see from what is said is how people reacted to the coming of Christianity and not what was the true original Christianity. We know people are different, and we know people “react” differently (the 3 forms they discussed) but what needs to be decided (at least for some who think “truth” is black or white) is what is the true way of Jesus not how people reacted to it, because people “react all kinds of way differently), such as Rome, the Mid-East, Africa, and later diaspora. Just because SOME peoples locally syncretized their belief does not make it the right thing to do per se, nor does by default making creeds etc… this I think is where the waters get muddied. Great video, I will continue to watch the rest 😊

[@scottwatson8659]

I understand your sentiment but your construct of truth borders on idolatry. No one teaches, preaches, does apologetics, etc. as if they are a part of the Trinity. Real talk! We do all these as fallible, sinful human beings with cultural situadedness. To try to transcend that is what Satan wanted. God became flesh--that's God's way for us to become like him. Where does that leave us? We come together as the Body of Christ to decide how best to talk about Jesus of Nazareth in relation to the Father and the Holy Spirit, in a coherent manner that is in concert with the OT, Apostolic Tradition (NT), Tradition (Rule of Faith) and sound theological reflection. Hence, we have a broad sense of orthodoxy, with some divergences and tensions. This is different from the so-called Bible Only theology which only creates a mushrooming of theological views, and often heterodox views. In 1 Cor 12, Paul says we prophesy IN PART... To want the benefit of the Eschaton before it arrives, is not truth but error born of hubris or lack of understanding.

[@tfmtrueformmotivations6463]

@@scottwatson8659 thank you for taking the time to reply, but I’m actually not clear on your point, because I’m not advocating “Sola Scriptura” or abandons tradition etc… So we are on the Same page when we are talking and clear on terms we are using, I have to understand your point, terms, and even that you are understanding of what I originally wrote, because it seems like you missed my point and maybe are thinking I’m saying something I am not. Thanks again.

[@scottwatson8659]

@@tfmtrueformmotivations6463 Thank you for responding in such an irenic manner. After re-reading your post, I think I was triggered by your statement which you attributed to others with a black and white conception of truth. But, if I understand what you wrote, I'm still back at the same place essentially. Correct me if I'm wrong! Getting back to original Christianity? What does that mean? There is some truth in the assertion that, broadly, in praxis of worship (proto-Trinitarian), belief in Jesus as Messianic Son of God who is the Image/Word of God, etc. characterized the early Jesus movement. With this came diversity as part of its missional imperative, which caused tensions and eventual divisions, as we see even in the NT. St. Paul because of his vocation used his embeddedness in Jewish, Greco-Roman culture to his advantage in evangelizing. All religions, if they are successful, go through acculturation. I think sometimes people use syncretism when the proper term is the former. It's really a continuum. St. Paul in Athens built bridges by preaching about the Unknown God to his Greco-Roman listeners at the Aeropagus. St. Paul chose Timothy, the son of a pagan father and Jewish mother as one of his travelling companions/ evangelists, which was, in that day, a controversial move in the Church. St. Paul practices radical DEI because the gospel demands it, since its imperative is universal. As both Drs. Faraji and Bantu pointed out, this is historically what happens. If you read St. Paul in Galatians and Corinthians, he is dealing with interlopers tying to undermine his mission. He was a very controversial figure in the early Church, a source of much tension over the development of the Jesus movement as it dealt with its identity as a Jewish renewal movement as it spread to Gentiles. There was diversity from the very beginning, but not so much fundamental theological diversity but various emphases that tracked the Jew-Gentile tension in the Church. How did the Church mediate this? Just as the Church did in the 4th century. Christianity has always been a conciliar religion. From deciding who'd replace Judas in the 12, to the Jerusalem Council (Acts, Galatians). Many Christians are uncomfortable with the truth that Christianity is an historical religion, with its savior appearing in history and forming a community to manifest his ongoing presence in the world, by the Holy Spirit. It's messy and contentious at times. But that's God's way, since he sanctified the fullness of humanity and human life in the Incarnation. This is unlike Islam where you have Scripture that falls out of heaven. Christianity is inextricably bound up in the historical process. As co-workers with Christ, we are enjoined work out our salvation with fear and trembling. This is first and foremost a communal summons, as we are also enjoined to grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. so the Conciliar Creedal heritage is endemic to Christianity and the Body of Christ. What are they though? The so- called Ecumenical Creeds are to be understood as a kind of grammar, to show us rightly how to speak/teach about God, Jesus and the Spirit. And, of course, this is reflected in the Creedal/hymnic materials in the NT, the Rule of Faith (Regula Fidei) in the early Church to the Apostle's Creed. A creed-less Christianity is not orthodox or biblical. As long as the Church is tasked with proclaiming the Gospel, in every age, intellectual milieu, etc. it must address the question Jesus posed to his disciples: But you, who do say that I am? That's part of our vocation! We can't hide behind God; we have to take responsibility for our articulations, acknowledging those who took up this task in the Body of Christ before us, drawing on their wisdom.

[@tfmtrueformmotivations6463]

@@scottwatson8659 I do not disagree with you comment, thank you for your input.

[@scottwatson8659]

Thank you, Dr. Faraji! Yes, the African religious heritage shines through African American Christianity. Even though most of our ancestors embraced Evangelical Christianity, it was mediated through the African culture, from shouting, to various ways we express our religiosity. We had some relatives who did "root work" and that was not seen as Christian but other practices we held onto as part of culture, as he said. I'm a 60+ year old AA Southern man who remembers my Grannie emphatically telling us children to be quiet during thunderstorms because that was God's work and my she was also the our community's midwife. I was born in the hospital and my late Mother said the Ob/Gyn instructed her how to care for me but my Grannie did just opposite as the traditional AA midwife who had their own tradition and ways. My Grannie also would tell me to get certain plants and she would make medicines/remedies from them when I was sick. She loved Jesus but, like Dr. Faraji it explained, she still operating out of that African socioreligious matrix.

[@philliplee1500]

Thank you for sharing these memories. Other than religious matrices, can I ask what were other common worldviews AA folks viewed the world through during that time in the South? Do you feel like the religious framework was more helpful or more harmful in the long term for the community as a whole? Thank you again for the wisdom and insight.

[@scottwatson8659]

@@philliplee1500 , thank you for your response. If I understand the question you are asking, please correct me if I'm wrong, it needs to be re-thought, IMO. As both Drs. Faraji and Bantu said one of the things that characterizes almost all traditional religion and the religion of Jesus and the early Church, is a non-dualist worldview. I would call it a "sacramental" worldview in which God/the gods interact in and with the natural order in the mundane spheres of life. The religious perspective is comprehensive in scope. The problem is that most Evangelicalism, in reality, is fully embedded in a Modernist intellectual construct which is fundamentally dualist. This creates all sorts of problems in which for God to act in creation, it is as a force working on something fundamentally extrinsic. There is the positing, intellectually, of a strong demarcation between natural and supernatural, etc. In this schema, traditional worldview are characterized as "superstitious", primitive, religious expressions are characterized often as folkways or "popular religion". You have to name this for what it is: harmfully ethnocentric at best and racist at worst. But most of all, it's ironic because it goes against the lived experience of humanity throughout history. It's not a reflection of the reality that God created, including the biblical one with YHWH, his divine council and emissaries at work in administering nations. In a Christian sense this is a Trinitarian reality with the work of spiritual hierarchy, angels, saints,etc. And, of course, the spiritual dislocation of rebellious spiritual beings. This doesn't go undermine the integrity of the natural world, it simply shows the complexity of creation. In this all cultures navigate how to operate. It is the largely Western mindset that is schizophrenic in this regards. My contention is that this wholistic worldview allowed the Africans in dehumanizing bondage in the American diaspora to survive psycho-spiritually. Black Christian religion has always been Jesus-centric, as Immanuel, not in an abstract theological sense but as one who is experienced as the powerful presence with the people in the totality of their lives, guiding them, comforting them, teaching them, "making a way out of no way," giving them the understanding of their humanity and countering the white supremacist Christianity foist upon them. This religiosity and worldview is completely African.

[@philliplee1500]

@@scottwatson8659 Thanks for responding and sharing some very insightful thoughts. I definitely agree with your address on dualism in the West and how it enabled human atrocities as it was weaponized the Bible. Would you self identify as a Christian by chance?

[@scottwatson8659]

@@philliplee1500 It's weird you'd ask that question! What I write is not from a perspective of academic disinterest. I have skin in the game but I understand that I'm the beneficiary of a Tradition, both good and bad, as I struggle to be faithful to the Trinity. If I can be half the Christian as my Grandma, my paternal great uncle's and aunts, I'd be a saint. They were real Christians who knew and loved Jesus, because I saw the love of God incarnate in them, in a white supremacist and oppressive so- called Christian society.

[@philliplee1500]

@@scottwatson8659 It’s eye opening to see the difficulty of answering a question that so many white evangelicals so easily answer (often demand an answer for). Growing up in a traditionally Christian church, I also assumed a white normative translation of the question “are you a believer” or “are you a Christian” but I see now how that is really not such a simple question. Thank you again for sharing.

[@michaelcleveland3997]

Thank you Dr. Bantu.

[@saul2paulproject]

I’m not convinced that the disciples were seeking to venerate their ancestors on the mount of transfiguration (not in the sense of worship).But even if they were- God the Father made it plain by responding from heaven “This is my beloved Son- listen to HIM.” God wants us to follow Jesus as our only source of spiritual riches and wisdom. Following Messiah does not include venerating ancestors- whether ancient Hebrew or our African ancestors. We are to worship God only and look to Him as the consummation of all spiritual experience. I’m all for loving our blackness, our history, and our culture- but divination and ancestral worship is not of God. Even Abraham was called AWAY from that.

[@beatriceboansi2314]

SaultoPaul I love your comments. I was all for the teaching of Dr Vince until I heard him on this particular subject and couldn't believe what I was hearing it devastated me because I had recommended him for some of my family members to listen to him. So I agree with 100%.

[@saul2paulproject]

@@beatriceboansi2314 yes. I agree with you. I also want to go back and watch this again. I don’t think Dr. Bantu was necessarily agreeing with Dr. Faraji on everything, but he was trying to have an engaging and civil conversation. I may have missed something so I will watch again.

[@snoopster77]

@@saul2paulproject Dr. Bantu had a similar kind of discussion on the Unbelievable? podcast last year. Equally disappointing. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qpiVl4OVr8SKabs

[@marquescameron2459]

Thanks for sharing My grandmother was looking for her Dad or as she would call him, “the strong man”, to come and get her.

[@michaelcleveland3997]

There is no more need for any sacrifices. Remember.

[@vonettawilliams3754]

I'm glad the comments are open for this discussion. I really do appreciate the topics this channel brings because they address questions I've had but a couple of the vides have had the comments were turned off. There was a video of a woman who was raised Christian who has turned to African spirituality and she stated that she started seeing in the spirit after unintentionally fasting after the traumatic experience of losing her boyfriend. The church didn't give her answers and she found answers elsewhere in a form of African Spirituality. I really wanted to comment on that video and say that when Jesus fasted he encountered the devil, so we have to be careful that any and all things that we do is in the name of the Jesus and it is he who lives in us and uses us to carry out his will. The devil imitates everything that God does and if we don't go to God and hear from him we are easily deceived. The bible says there will be some that say Lord we cast out demons in your name but Jesus will say depart from me, I never knew you.

[@singerblinger2008]

39:18 The Ga Mantse case is not so unusual for two reasons; (1)Traditional religions are syncretic by nature. (2)The Roman Catholic Church is currently championing an ecumenical agenda with other religions and Islam is an important part of it. The Ga Mantse therefore cannot possibly have a problem with accomodating Muslim worship. He would have to be an orthodox protestant who upholds exclusivity as a key tenet of Christianity. This Yes and No idea might be dangerous. The western colorization of Christianity is unacceptable and must be discarded as soon as one becomes aware of it. There is no need for us to create our own version of the problem. Just a thought. I really do appreaciate the work you are doing Dr. Bantu.

[@Brother_Dre1900]

Just as long as believers don't begin to perform ancestor worship, or worship created things and other beings, and compromise their belief in Jesus' Divinity (i.e., being God), then I can get with some of this, from a cultural standpoint. I get it and do advocate some of it. But no matter how much you try to syncretize for the sake of cultural integrity, there will have to be a dividing line, or line of demarcation somewhere. Remember, in the end, a part of the gospel's M.O. is not to bring peace, but a sword. Simply put, there will be occasions for righteous offense, even if this entails abandoning certain ancestral spiritual practices, and beliefs, that can compromise your total spiritual walk with the God of the Bible. In the end, we can not serve two masters. The Holy Spirit is to be our sole guide, in the name of Jesus Christ. Be careful.

[@scottwatson8659]

Of course, Trinitarian worship is that line of demarcation but the acknowledgement/veneration of spiritual powers, saints, etc. is not worship, even though most Protestants don't differentiate. Remember that the divinity of Jesus alone is heresy. Orthodoxy is trust in full humanity and divinity of Jesus. Unpacking the theological implications of this may be uncomfortable for some Christians!

[@Brother_Dre1900]

@@scottwatson8659 I don't agree with the practice, but the veneration of saints isn't the same as ancestor worship. And the only higher power Christians ought to tap into is the Holy Spirit, not "other spiritual powers". What are you talking about? Lastly, I understand the humanity of Jesus, but are you saying that Jesus is not God?

[@scottwatson8659]

@@Brother_Dre1900 , Do you understand what Conciliar Christianity believed concerning orthodox Christology? The humanity of Jesus was seen as just as crucial as his divinity. Why? Because of their understanding of salvation. For most Evangelical Protestants, salvation centers on forgiveness of sins and getting your ticket to heaven, if you will. In the Great Church, salvation centered on deification, becoming god through adoption in and through Christ. Glorification using Pauline-type language. This interchange happens via Jesus' human nature, from Mary. The famous patristic dictum, 'that which has not been assumed (speaking of Jesus taking up completely our humanity) cannot be healed (through which the grace of the Holy Spirit heals and transforms us into the image of God in Christ). This this is an ecclesial and ascetical focus to this process via sacramentalist of baptism, Eucharist and the other means of grace. This embodied understanding of salvation and spirituality is very congruent to the wholistic understanding of all traditional spiritualities, not just African. Even with the largely dualistic spirituality of much Evangelical Protestant theology and spirituality, this wholistic focus still manifested in AA Christian religiosity, as Dr. Faraji testified and I saw in my elders, from my Grandma always making up be quiet in thunderstorms because that was "God's work". A lot of the stuff we attributed to our folkways were a part of the African spiritual worldview and heritage. That's not sycretism it's acculturating, which the Church has always done. Talk about sycretism, the biggest one in American Christianity is the ideology of white supremacy!

[@Brother_Dre1900]

@@scottwatson8659 look, dude, you are not dealing with a novice on this topic. I am very familiar with Eastern Orthodoxy and its belief when it comes to deification through Christ. If you have discernment, you will pick up on that going forward. And as far as the justification for the type of syncretism you're talking about, well-yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. Your beliefs and what you know on that subject matter are of no interest to me. But I do have just one question for you: IS JESUS GOD FROM ETERNITY? I understand your humanity/divinity argument, ad nauseum. And sometimes folks will go deep into the weeds explaining such concepts, while probably (operative word) masking a whole lot of heretical mumbo jumbo. So again, do you believe Jesus existed before his incarnation as God?

[@nickjones1314]

@@Brother_Dre1900 If Jesus was truly god there would be no need to have a council to discuss if he was god or not.. There will never be a council to discuss whether or not Lebron James is a basketball player. You have to understand that you are part of a belief system.. Not a knowing system.. You are called to have faith.. Not knowledge but faith. You have to have faith in Jesus being god.

[@yldabale]

I am quoting one of the shirts and the mask, "Black History Starts in the Bible"... That is a bit of a stretch but okay, LOL and I kinda like it. It could serve as a great conversation starter.

[@philliplee1500]

I am not sure if this was already mentioned but Ham the son of Noah established the Kingdom of Kush.

[@Tel934]

Curious to know why it is that you think this is far fetched. Please, share your thoughts when you have a moment. Thanks.

[@juancatolico4057]

What chapter and verse please?

[@philliplee1500]

@@juancatolico4057 1 Chronicles 1:1-10; see also Hebrew word for “Ethiopia” in Ezek. 29:10 (“Cush”).

[@juancatolico4057]

@@philliplee1500 And according to 1 Chronicles 1:1-10 and Ezekiel 29:10 black history started in the Bible?

[@michaelcleveland3997]

Remember though. This is my Son. Hear ye Him. No need to ever worship ancestors.

[@JordanLittlejohn-jl4lj]

Where is the middle north, south and west?

[@greggoff4040]

So listening to you. There seems to be no doctrinal boaders. Any and all types of a cultures traditional religious activities can be practiced. Anyone's theology can be accepted as chritian as long as Christ is in there somewhere? From gnosticism to New age practices are cool now. Anything that comes from the culture of a people is assimulated into the Christian faith!???

[@michaelcleveland3997]

My question is. Is your guest a follower of Jesus or is he more of a pluralist who adds some of Jesus with other deities?

[@scottwatson8659]

If you listened closely to Dr. Bantu's introduction of Dr. Faraji, your question might not have been necessary. Dr. Faraji did a great job explaining his pluralist stance in a nuanced manner.

[@thewisevirgins8030]

Shema O Yisrael! Yahweh our God is Yahweh One. We are not mangling God with no ancestry worship whether European or African. Gal. 1:8, 9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed (anathema).

[@beatriceboansi2314]

This Guy doesn't know his Bible that well it wasn't Steven that they cast lots on but, rather Matthias.

[@beatriceboansi2314]

Please I love your program but mixing the ancestry worship with Christianity is totally wrong!!!. I believe the Lord Jesus Christ and Him alone. I come from a family that has a God that they worship but I have moved away from it because it doesn't do anything but keep you in bandage.

[@beatriceboansi2314]

I'm not against wearing traditional attire nor am I against having a king in my nation. What I'm against is mixing worship of Babylon which in time past God winked at to mix it with what Christ has done on the cross for me and said it is finished. Christ has given us freedom. He has liberated us stop adding the traditions that doesn't save a soul from perishing. I'm shocked and agast of what I'm hearing from these men. Here I was trying to share Dr Vince to people who thinks the Bible and Christianity is from the white man and now what am I supposed to think. I'm so glad I know my Bible and grounded in the word of God and not in the word of men and their extensive studies. Good by I'm sorry to have listened.

[@beatriceboansi2314]

Ok

[@michaelcleveland3997]

I don't agree with your guest. Thank you for holding to your faith.

[@SEANUBIAN]

Heresy! No mixing the worship of YHWH with African Orishas!

[@beatriceboansi2314]

No!!no you have Lost me.

[@tudormiller887]

Before Christianity and Islam there was Judaism. So all Africans worldwide have to convert to their original religion of Judaism to get closer to the one true G-d of Abraham, Moses and Sarah. Hashem. Shalom.

[@gedionendalkachew12]

Before Judaism there was Buddhism so should we convert to that🤔

[@tudormiller887]

@@gedionendalkachew12 Well before that there was the indigenous Persian religion. So maybe convert to that too.

[@FLBJOJO]

@@gedionendalkachew12just cause something is older doesn’t mean we should pick it don’t listen to buddy logic 😂 & converting to Judaism would be detrimental when there is Jesus the messiah whom Jews & those who want to get in communion with the one true God have to follow

[@FLBJOJO]

You don’t convert to Judaism to get closer to The most high you hearken to the commandments of Christ the Son of God