Did Final Fantasy 16 Leave Old Fans Behind?

In the run up to and release of Final Fantasy 16 I noticed a small but growing part of the internet claim Square Enix's newest take on the famous RPG franchise was not Final Fantasy anymore. This is my response.
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#finalfantasy16 #finalfantasy #squareenix

[@ThatOneVideoGamer]

This video was fucking awesome Jesse.

[@Phoizza]

Please

[@jessecox]

Thanks my dude 😊

[@mgr713]

@@jessecox Just the right amount of spice 🤌

[@Dracobyte]

​@@mgr713the spice must flow!

[@paytonestrada7746]

This video was utter trash. You just want to shill your channel with a comment the guy will highlight.

[@CinnamonToastKen]

FF16 is the first instalment I've really sat down and enjoyed since 10

[@Acesinz]

Same here! ❤

[@orwin5445]

I was going to say. There is a clear division between XI and what came before it. This one feels like it tried not just with the visual insanity but also the story, even if some of it still feels more teenager oriented than I'd prefer for a more mature entry. This is, to me, the most FF it has been for a very long time.

[@Plasmacat1]

It's because it has a clear vision and wasn't in development hell like all the games between 10 and 16. Even the spin offs.

[@ML-yn9yu]

same, I haven't played FF14 so I cant go that. But damn if this wasnt the 1st game I've enjoyed since 10

[@pixielst]

This. So much. 15 eventually grew on me and I've come to love 12. 14 is something of a lifestyle for me now than a game. But I totally did not sit down playing them fresh with a full grin on my face the entire time. (Well, except for Shadowbringer and Endwalker but they're expansions so still different.)

[@GFS695]

I started with the first FF, 45 years old now and still loving the series.

[@heartlessdonut2920]

I salute you for a long life of gaming.

[@Jordanbiggs1473]

I’m 30. As if your 15 years older then me, that’s crazy

[@falconeshield]

​@jordanlalonde2507 33, started with 8 till 12, 10 is still the best one for me. 16 finally feels like a return to form, as I never bonded with the 13 astatic side of FF. 16 feels like a game that grew up with us. It's for us. Let's enjoy it while we're still around.

[@ruggedlemmings9163]

I may be 7 years behind you, but I'm in the same boat. Granted, for me it was watching my brother play the original FF since I was too young to really do more than make a party of Black Mages because I thought they looked cool, wander around in the world a bit, get my ass handed to me because I've got a party of Black Mages, and then pop in Mario 3 or something. STILL! I loved watching my brother play it, and when FF2 (FF4) came out on the SNES I was finally old enough to actually have a concept of how to play an RPG so that was the first one I actually played, and that only solidified my enjoyment of the game (and RPG genre in general). When FF3 (FF6) came out, I was officially hooked on the franchise and indeed, to this day, I'm still loving the series.

[@chesteradams7423]

Yeah, some more than others, but still. My favorite is FFVIII and it's one of the most hated games in the series, mostly because it is different from what came before it. If they did not change and evolve, then they wouldn't be on the 16th mainline Final Fantasy game, had many spinoffs, and a few sequels. Not many game franchises get to be around that long.

[@Adlehyde.]

Ironically, or maybe not at all, 16 feels the most "Final Fantasy" I've felt a stand alone final fantasy game feel since maybe 10 or 12. WHICH WAS 20 YEARS AGO!

[@batataComPolvo]

i think everyone agrees that 13 and 15 are not that good, but they said the production went really well this time just to have... fetch sand from the beach?

[@wizirbyman]

agree - the best parts of final fantasy were very much captured story and aesthetically imo

[@kyrias9391]

Well said!

[@WD_Gaster66]

@@batataComPolvo I personally like the 13 trilogy, 13-2 more so than any other (love that game to death)

[@Isnogood12]

It's not an RPG, but it's an amazing FF game with amazing writing. But aren't FF games RPGs?

[@alaskanfreezer]

Man, whoever was the editor on this episode fucking KILLED it. Especially the ending, with the swelling music. Well done!

[@ExorcistX999]

Especially with the good (VI), bad (XIII), and everything in between (XII)

[@drigger225]

I loved the part where he said "the dark souls of" and there was a clip of Jedi: Survivor in the background 😂

[@0Fyrebrand0]

I actually found that a little awkward, the way the whole video got louder, and the voiceover volume suddenly increased to compensate for it. It felt like an editing mistake or something.

[@IvanIvanov-qx5oz]

​@@0Fyrebrand0agreed. It didn't feel very smooth. I don't care too much about it, but the volume level changes were noticable and a bit distracting

[@Dracobyte]

FF 16 is indeed... a Final Fantasy 16!

[@christinezwergle1613]

The TB footage is always gonna hit hard, but seeing those amazing days will always leave me with a wistful smile. Incredibly insightful video!

[@AleixASV]

I don't know if anyone will read this but I've been watching Jesse play FF since way back when, and I discovered the many worlds of the series through that, such as the crazy FF6 marathon (holy shit it was fantastic in many ways), and it made me aware of the many ways this series expresses itself. I can only say thank you for bringing me these moments.

[@Gamespud94]

That stream was the first time I actually interested in FF. Never gave it a chance before then, but like.. how can you not like a game as epic as that AND it lets you suplex a train!

[@rarguy3683]

wait he did a FF6 marathon and I missed it!?

[@Gamash]

@@rarguy3683 It was many, MANY years ago. I can also say that the hype over suplexing the train in that stream was what got me into the Final Fantasy series.

[@Hoztyle619]

@@Gamash Oh right! With Jirard, Alex, Dodger and a lot of other office friends! Maaaaan that was a great stream

[@jessecox]

Thank you for being part of my journey

[@arellajardin8188]

I dunno, trying to pin it down to any one thing as the reason, feels like trying to hide the forest with trees. For those saying that (clarifying, not me, I haven't played it), it's more a sense of everything being different, that they can't see any DNA of what led to this evolution. Yeah, the series constantly adapted, but most people aren't sitting down and making a chart to determine that each connects to 16. They "feel" like it's not. Having a guy named Cid and chocobos isn't enough to say, "Final Fantasy". Maybe for those people, enough planks have been replaced on the Ship of Theseus, that it no longer feels like the Ship of Theseus. And, yeah. Sometimes when you appeal to a new audience, you shed the old one. That's inevitable. If a series is always changing, there's always going to be a threshold where many old fans feel like it's no longer what they fell in love with in the first place. And if people "feel" left behind, you can't logic away their feeling.

[@Travel-Adv]

Been a fan since 1987 and FFXVI hasn’t dampen my love of the series. The new take and mature storyline really felt appropriate for me.

[@OhNoTheFace]

Swearing like children is apparently mature nowadays

[@KoNekoNoUta]

@@OhNoTheFace shallow as a children really is everywhere nowdays.

[@snipingway]

@@OhNoTheFace Are you actually upset because they say 'fuck' a few times in the game?

[@JohnSmith-rr3jt]

Mature is an interesting take given the fact the plot is just poorly paced, and the first half of the story is absolute crap.

[@IronCrone]

Me too. I’ve been a long time fan and have played every installment since FF4. I don’t like all of them, but the series is a beloved of mine so I give them all a chance. I love 16 and I think story wise is very Final Fantasy.

[@M0torsagmannen]

i think the point about Final Fantasy always evolving is so true, and i think your love and knowledge of the series shines through in your analysis.

[@forestgirlasha]

Totally agree this comment I was looking for.

[@sheaffer117]

True and it's great for an evolution of the mechanics, but that doesn't mean you are completely abandon the old mechanics. Like when they went from turn-based to real-time action, that was great because you still recognized the pieces from the turn base in the real time action. This game there is very little final fantasy in it. It feels like if Disney did final fantasy

[@grass23]

Disagree hard. If the mechanics are what make the game to you then as Jesse said, you're pointing to something that doesn't exist.

[@sheaffer117]

@@grass23 how so. If you're playing say call of duty and then all of a sudden they come out with a sequel that plays like this Sims , You would say what the hell. Same thing here. Well there is tiny final fantasy moment sprinkled in all honesty that's it. This isn't final fantasy. It's a generic corridor lead action adventure game with a few final fantasy references. If you took out the crystals and the summons. Would you know this is a final fantasy game about the title? No no, you would not. That doesn't make this game a bad game because it's not but it is a bad final fantasy game

[@CoalCoalJames]

It always evolved but stayed true to it's roots till recently. The two are not mutually exclusive~

[@kpacf]

Fun combat and a great voice acting with a good emotional story. i think people forget that with all the cutscenes, that much dialogue in the old installments would have been cutscenes if they had the tech back then.

[@Theb0YWh0lived1]

Old installments also had cast of playable characters 14 deep, most games had 10 plus towns where memorable moments took place. Hidden side quests that didn’t hold your hand and put a icon over everything. They had items list a mile long. Balamb garden, Triple Triad, the Gold Saucer, mognet central. The coliseum, traveling to the moon! Doomtrain!, the Figaro brothers. Blitz Ball, chocobo hot cold, Midgar!! You know the town so cool square decided they could make a entire game out it.. I think FF16 is good… but I honestly think you get the FF16 experience 3-5 times a year as far as the games formula goes. This year we have had Hogwarts, Star-wars and Bayonetta. To where if you want a AAA Final Fantasy type game that’s more like 4-10. Then you have gotten DQ11, P5, and Xenoblade in the last 15 years.

[@FriedCassowary]

No doubt. That's exactly how they would have been. We can look at FF7R and see that to be true. Think of all the dialogue we had in OG FF7 and how we got all that but in cutscenes with 7R. Also like FF7 and FF7R, we can see that true roots of FF isn't turned based either. Hell, according to the guys who started FF, it was never meant to be turned based. They just couldn't realize their full vision with the limited hardware and budgets at the time and settled for turned based. I love turn based combat (Persona Series is amazing) but I don't want to limit the creators by crying and screaming each time they make a change that better fits their creative vision.

[@munky342]

​@@FriedCassowaryI really enjoy turn based combat, but I also acknowledge that I'm in a minority of gamers when it comes to that.

[@uhskn9753]

@@munky342try octopath 2 if you haven’t then it’s pretty good

[@LiveErrors]

@@Theb0YWh0lived1 luckily can still get a number of non AAA turn based Rpgs. If you have a tolerance for unpolished edges then somethign like Dead End; ReQuest is one of the most interesting RPGs to come out in years

[@TheShandomer]

Watching this made me realise how much I would love Jesse delving into more of FF lore and what connects the games to make it FF experience

[@Msyk1290]

Oh man, you bringing up the terraria footage with TB sent me rocking back with nostalgia... I was there when those were airing on both of your channels. Also once again, excellent little essay video. You are absolutely right, FF6 is what captured me, and I've given them all a chance since them. They're not all my favorite, but I can totally respect the willingness to push the boundries of the franchise.

[@Prophes0r]

But he is also VERY wrong, in a way that keeps perpetuating things... ...because there is no such thing as a "Final Fantasy" game. And there never was. It is just a label the publishers stuck on that used to mean "The big SquareSoft RPG this time" It is not a series. It is not a franchise. It is literally the same thing as "Major Ubisoft Game 17".

[@ReverendLeRoux]

God, yeah. I miss TB. He was such a good voice on the internet.

[@CamronMH]

@@Prophes0r That's literally what he said

[@Prophes0r]

@@CamronMH No. He stated SOME of the body, but never came to the all important conclusion. All. Important. Conclusion. Final Fantasy is not, and has never been, a franchise or a series. If someone said "Not MY Ubisoft Game" you would be confused because, while their big-budget titles do tend to share some mechanics, "Ubisoft" is not a franchise. There is nothing to "fail" to identify with. People are failing to identify with FF16, because Final Fantasy IS NOT a series/franchise. It's not because they change things up to stay fresh. It is nothing like changing up PAX to attract a new audience. It is more like the same people who host PAX, hosting a new convention called PAX2, except at this one companies are showing off and demonstrating the latest Public Announcement products. It's still an industry convention. The same people are hosting it. They got the same artists to do the marketing material. There will be product demos. It's still CALLED "PAX". But that's it. No other connections.

[@miguelnewmexico8641]

@@Prophes0r you are a crazy person.

[@clarehidalgo]

I'm really enjoying watching Jesse play the story and the characters. Like I like Clive he's not a shounen hero or cold or angsty, he's just a pretty normal guy that just so happens can turn into a kaiju and I love that about him

[@broad_cat]

Let's be real, he's fairly angsty. But it's earned.

[@Oliver_Nexus]

I love that he acts like a reasonable guy and so far I have seen no "omg, why do you react like that, no." moments.

[@broad_cat]

@@Oliver_Nexus I agree with this. And I think that might be part of my problem with Jill is that she acts like a real person. And a real person isn't just going to dump all their thoughts on somebody while traveling or handling important tasks. But it also shuts us out of seeing the nuances of their relationship because we have no 'real' reason to see them. Well that and as a Dominant she gets relegated to the sidelines way too much.

[@clarehidalgo]

@@broad_cat I meant no angst for the sake of angst not like reasonable human emotions levels of angst

[@broad_cat]

@@clarehidalgo Yee, I hear you

[@ozfroggirl9221]

I was not prepared for this video. The footage from PAX with TB hit me hard. Then the way you brought it all around as a love letter to the whole series and the fans who love them had me sobbing at the end. Perfectly constructed and edited. Never stop making vids like this.

[@Dracobyte]

TB would be proud of him!

[@Dracobyte]

@@LukaTheWanderer what? Why?

[@sathrielsatanson]

Yeah, TB always brings memories of the old good times of Cooptional Podcast.

[@sathrielsatanson]

@@Dracobyte TitalBiscuit said some questionable things (which he apologized for) and he was tangentially connected to the Gamergate.

[@BlueJeiVA]

To me, Final Fantasy has always been about the overall experience: a collection of it's parts. It's about the story, the world, the characters, the music, etc. To me, the mechanics have never mattered. However, I respect everyone to have their own opinions.

[@SuperLekan12]

Okay then...final fantasy 17 is trailered. and it turns out it's a first-person looter shooter set in a futuristic sci fi world, it still has great characters and music...would that still feel like final fantasy or would you accept that perhaps there's a common theme and identity that runs through all final fantasy games which many fans resonate with. Nobody is saying change can't happen, but to dismiss the idea that all 15 games before 16 weren't party based had an element of command prompts, status ailment and strategy to fights is disingenuous.

[@HorusDeathtouch]

​@@SuperLekan12What a load of bs of a question. What if Halo was a power-washing simulator, and turtles drove around in toasters?

[@jonasmemborg4196]

@@HorusDeathtouch Well, it wouldn't be Halo. SuperLekan is asking a very simple question: How much can we change and how far can we take those changes and still retain that feeling of Final Fantasy? FF have had a formula and some common tropes that have become staples in the franchise. FFXVI isn't devoid of all of them, but it focuses more on a main character rather than a main cast. This also comes across in the gameplay, as there is no party. Despite the Eikons being elemental in nature, we don't have elemental weaknesses and any deeper strategy to bring into fights, and they become very samey over time. The equipment system is weirdly redundant, and since we're getting elemental based weapons with each Eikon defeated, they could've used that to have you bring certain equipment and Eikons into battle depending on the enemies you're facing. Despite the world being very beautifully realized, as of yet I haven't been presented with any real meaningful exploration or rewards - I haven't completed the game yet, though, so maybe that comes later? I like the game. The story, world, writing, voice acting and the characters are some of the best we've had, in my opinion. The game has some insane highs and some weird flaws. Overall, it's a great experience, but a lot of the things I look forward to in a Final Fantasy is lacking here, so I get the criticism, even if it's for different reasons than "no turn-based combat, bad game"

[@HorusDeathtouch]

@jonasmemborg4196 It has all of the feeling of a Final Fantasy to me, because there hasn't been much in the way of exploration or rpg mechanics in 25 years. FF is about the journey with your friends, and there is a lot of that. There is definitely a party. There just isn't much of a party system, but you can even choose which party members join you later in the game, after some side quests. You have companions for the vast majority of the game, even with up to 4 or more in some instances, and doggo keeps you company in the minor instances between. Most of what is being mentioned regarding combat mechanics comes off as redundant, because the combat is fully action based. I can't remember the last time I played an action game where there were elemental affinities, status ailments, or the gear upgrades weren't straightforward. Maybe it's because I'm not only a hardcore FF fan, but a well-traveled gamer in general that I don't really care much what genre identity a FF game adopts, so long as it's fun, the music is masterfully composed, and the story is well-written. Tbh even if it's not fun, if the story engages my emotions I'll consider it a win.

[@jonasmemborg4196]

@@HorusDeathtouch I'm a bit of an omnivore myself when it comes to games, so I'm not a big purist in terms of the combat system having to be turn-based. I'm glad to hear the party expands with more characters later, but I miss the bigger main cast. There is a clear focus on Clive and his journey. And yes, we haven't had a proper doggo mechanic. A bold new direction. 10/10. xD I don't agree that there have been no exploration. XIII wasn't much to write home about, although there were optional content to find, but XII had exploration, XV as well. I think what makes XVI more contentious with fans is that Yoshida have mentioned wanting it to be the game that brings Final Fantasy back into the limelight and set a new direction for the franchise.

[@9Jov]

Jesse Cox always has the best editorial-type videos man. Wish they did better in viewcounts so we can have more of them.

[@W_P_A]

Remembering that metacritic is deleting several negative scores and leaving the scores of 10, if it wasn't for that, the average score would be at 6.5 more or less.

[@WenderPottery]

I'll always love the old jesse and his let's plays, but I'm just grateful my favorite content creator has managed to keep his dream alive for as long as he has. Thank you Jesse ❤

[@Prophes0r]

I sort of agree. I appreciate that Jesse had to change the format. I like that he can still do something. But I also abhor the "Twitch aesthetic". Playing a game while pandering to a needy, attention whoring audience, is not a "Let's play". So again, I'm glad he didn't have to go bus tables. And I'm glad he is making some people happy with his streams. But I'm also sad because I don't get to watch Jesse play stuff anymore.

[@CordovaMage]

The early days of any new movement before it becomes an "industry" are always looked back fondly by those that witnessed it. In those early wild west type situations it connects with the "everyman" as it feels as if anybody willing to try has a fairly equal shot at making it big before the movement solidifies and the gatekeeping starts (true or not). I do admit I miss those days of crappy mics and people just doing lets plays from their bedrooms. I think... I dunno. It is possible I just miss being younger.

[@broad_cat]

@@CordovaMage aware

[@Prophes0r]

@@CordovaMage You are using the word "gatekeeping" wrong and you need to stop. Not because your aren't "allowed" to. But because you are perpetuating the perversion of the term in a way that makes it impossible to use the term correctly. Gatekeeping is not necessarily a negative. Requiring a driver's license to drive a car is "gatekeeping". Not allowing people to call themselves an architect or electrician without the proper training/responsibility is "gatekeeping". It's hard to argue that people should be allowed to just "do whatever". About the rest of your statement? I was never arguing about any particular aesthetic. I don't yearn for a more "authentic" time. "Streaming" a game is not a "Let's Play". They are totally different format. "Let's Plays" didn't move to Twitch. They died (mostly), because people care more about the attention than the story. Not the PLAYERS necessarily, though there are plenty of attention whores among players. The audience drifted away in flits, toward a bright light that appealed more to their "I barely care about this" attention spans. And KZbin is a corporation, which never cared about the content, so it adjusted itself to maintain the highest profits. It is what it is. I, however, hate the streaming thing. It is a prime example of how other people's behavior stops me from having something I liked, because it isn't profitable enough to make any more. Even thought I SUPPORT the streamer making the change that is good for them, and the audience getting what they want. I don't have to LIKE something to support it. I still watch real Let's Plays. Telling a story through play. Their own, or simply roleplaying the game's characters. 45-60 minutes each. 150+ episodes for a series. (Sometimes 10+ seasons of the same game. Gopher just keeps cranking them out and I keep watching) There IS demand. It just isn't big enough to support all the gold-fish targeted channels anymore. I just don't get to watch Jesse do it anymore.

[@Aurrs]

@@Prophes0r u act like every single streamers audience is needy and attention whores when in reality thats just the the louder ones that make it seem that way at first glance, jesses streams are pretty chill, most chat ppl just kinda talk with eachother while enjoying watching jesse play games, sometimes he interact with us, same goes for ALOT, probably most streamers if anything, but ofc u have some streaners that interact more with there audiences but thats just wat they like, idk if u meant to try to downplay streaming in general but it seems u have a pretty huge misconstrued concept of wat a stream is, theres a community and streamer out there for literally everyone, theres plenty of lets play streamers who dont talk to there chat at all or very little

[@BoryslavF]

I am one of the people that miss older final fantasies, but I'm not really vocal about it and it's some things that are very specific that I miss: - I miss the summons above all else. In FF7 being able to do quad summon Knights of the Round Table, while lengthy always felt so awesome every time it played. I fully understand why this is not in modern versions since no one wants to sit through that each time. - I also miss playing and controlling multiple characters, I want to make the black mage, the healer, the fighter. I have played FF7 remake after beating the original multiple times, and the swapping of the characters and the implementation still feels janky. I want more control is really it, maybe something akin to FF12's(?) ability to give non-controlled characters parameters or situations when they cast / attack with certain things. Above everything I understand the changes and the reasons for them, which is why I don't really complain like some online about them. But I definitely do have that nostalgia for some of the old school mechanics.

[@PocketKanin]

i feel like you might enjoy some fire emblem games 👍 you control all your people on an open field and it can be very tactical, story depends on the game you play but overall it’s interesting

[@BoryslavF]

@@PocketKanin Never played them but I have definitely heard good things. It's definitely on my list of games to try at some point. Maybe after I beat FF16 :D

[@shadowace940]

The multiple characters aspect is the part I think really gets me. No other FF has been a story of how it's one persons responsibility to save the world. It's always a group of people. It's the WarriorS of Light. Or the WarriorS of Dark. This one is all about big daddy Clive. And to a lesser extent his puppy I guess.

[@Misakyz]

​@@shadowace940 In FF10 it was the responsibility of a summoner to save the world. Although there were multiple of them trying to do the "quest", it only required one of them to do it. FF13-3 was also a single person trying to save the world.

[@fernandozavaletabustos205]

Games from Square Enix that have turn-based combat for people that miss that system: - Octopath Traveler 2 - Bravely Default series - Live A Live - Tactics Ogre Reborn - The upcoming SUPER MARIO RPG remake - DQ 11 - FF Pixel Remaster And for those who are longing for an "FF party in the traditional sense", wait for FF 7 Rebirth or the rumored FF 9 remake.

[@jjkurtz03]

Very well done, Jesse. You've developed a really good knack for these kinds of breakdowns, just like the one you did for XIV. I know these videos are probably a shit ton of work, but these are definitely one of your strengths as a content creator. Keep it up!

[@Dracobyte]

TB would be proud of him!

[@sadramenbowl9556]

I’ve been a fan of yourself since 2015. Seeing your willingness to grow and change has always been something that I’ve admired about you.

[@Domdrok]

I started with FFX in eighth grade, a friend recommended it. I remember asking if I had to play the previous ones to understand the story lol. Still my favorite one, lots of nostalgia.

[@juggaz]

Let's agree to disagree. My FF is turn-based. If FFXVII is an FPS, it might still be a good game, and people that like FPS will perhaps like it, but I doubt core fans would appreciate it.

[@Raze1990]

total biscuit hype, man i wish he was still around :(

[@jpoortman]

What I'd give to watch a video on the upcoming PC port option menu...

[@kraeutrpolizei]

They turned a series known for single player turn based rpg experiences with a big budget (which are very rare nowadays) into a single player action game. I will play it probably but a bit part in me is sad that I can’t look forward to that experience anymore. This will never come back

[@ZephyrFate]

This is absolutely still an RPG experience.

[@kraeutrpolizei]

@@ZephyrFate So is Skyrim and Dark Souls. There are tons of games like this out there. Hardly any turn based content with such a budget.

[@nuxcreativeworks]

Thank you! This is how I've always viewed FF. I played 10, 12, 13 Trilogy, Type-0, 15, 7R and what I appreciated most was that they all tried something different. They all had pros and cons, but I enjoyed them all because it was a new experience each time, and I took them for what they were. FFXVI completely immersed me with the demo. It's right up my alley and I plan to pick it up soon.

[@MirandiLuna]

This. Even when there's overlap, there's still usually a lot of changes that keep each installment of the series fresh. If I want what basically amounts to carbon copies with updated graphics, there are dozens of other series that have that covered.

[@nuxcreativeworks]

@@MirandiLuna Yup! The differences is what gives each title it's own identity. It's why I can tell each game apart (including direct sequels) with zero confusion.

[@NameNotAChannel]

The series didn't REALLY start diverging until after 10-2. (they tried to make that claim in this video, but the core of the games was always turn-based (active time battle) controlling a whole party, and sci-fi/fantasy stories based around the crystals/elements/ancient tech and summoned monsters.) When SE wanted to experiment and change things up, prior to that point, they would just make spin-off series', such as FF Adventure becoming the Mana series, FF Saga becoming the SaGa series, FF Tactics, FF Dissidia, and Kingdom Hearts (even Type-0 fits into this mentality, since it wasn't considered a "mainline" numbered game.) In my own reply to this video I go into more detail.

[@Croyles]

@@NameNotAChannel Definitely not what I remember reading about FF6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 back in the day.

[@NameNotAChannel]

@@Croyles I've been playing since FF1, and I don't recall any objections made to FF6, 9 or 10, as far as "main line" numbered status goes. FF7 did diverge into a more modern setting along with 8... and "more realistic" graphics, rather than big-head-tiny-bodies... which some people thought wasn't right... but I never considered those serious arguments... since graphics, to me, have never been an issue, and I didn't see much difference theme-wise with those entries compared to prior entries. They had some pushback, since the settings took them far from the medieval fantasy mix, and stepped heavily into the sci-fi/modern side. I understand that disconnect (and gear was becoming far less important). However, what you did in the games was the same as before - combat-wise, anyway (aside from the Draw mechanic, which irked many people). There's a reason FF8 is probably my least liked FF game, aside from FF2j... HOWEVER, I don't question their "Mainline" statuses in the franchise.

[@arolux9770]

The only real issue i have with FF16 currently is it feels really lonely without the usual cast of interesting companions. Im around 15-20 hours in and i forget jill is with me half the time until i see a giant icicle in combat. To me the companions have always been the heart of a final fantasy game and while im still loving it, thats the one thing keeping it from 10/10 in my book.

[@sowercookie]

This is one of my few complaints tbh. I wish we could set up camp and hang out or something!

[@Isnogood12]

For me, I think there are far more well written NPC characters that bring the world alive. I can't really remember any NPC's from 15 (apart from Cid's boobs) or 13, but there are loads of memorable characters in 16. And it's not just because 16 is new, because there were good NPC's in 6-10 too.

[@shyboy9805]

FF15 cooking with the gang under the stars

[@zuterwer1835]

I haven't been a FF fan for along, really only started ff14 a month ago in earnest. But less is more sometimes. You can get really attached to the few characters, and yes, a few more would be good, but I prefer a few very well written characters over 7 oens that are kinda forgetabble

[@brynphillips9957]

You find Cid boring? I love the cast this time round. I also really liked Jill this time round, though it took a while to really delve into what drives her and her issues.

[@Rsalynia]

actually made me tear up at the end. FF has meant so much to me over the past 25ish years. great vid, man. i'm also a lurker watcher from your lp days for many many years now; i remember watching those terraria vids as they aired. i'm really glad you're still making content.

[@AmyZonkers]

Final Fantasy has traditionally been an open world turn-based RPG series. There is a big difference between making some tweeks to the system or setting and completely changing the genre. FF16 isn't even an RPG, it's a linear spectacle fighter akin to Devil May Cry. To say that Final Fantasy can be "anything" is to say that Final Fantasy has no identity. Which means it is no longer a game series but rather just a brand label. If this is actually going to be the case then there is no reason to be excited or a fan of the series anymore because the series no longer exists.

[@TheDapperDragon]

Exactly. 'Every FF is different' is such a consoomer take. We have a place for FF action games. They're called spin-offs.

[@TH3R3DMAW]

I am definitely one of the left behind, and that's fine. Not every game will be for every person. Haven't finished one since 10 and this will possibly be the first FF I don't at least try and beat my head against trying to force the love.

[@alexleet7612]

And maybe there will be a FF in a style that you want. I hope for it. You can still enjoy all cutscenes and watch it like a movie. ( like 17h+ xD)

[@sathrielsatanson]

Yeah, I was expecting to not like it after the badness of XIII and mediocrity of XV. Hopefully the remakes will bring back that old Final Fantasy feeling.

[@Avaene]

This has been my exact sentiment, but the editing really makes this video. Beyond just the words, the imagery and the way you matched the music to the words just shows your deep love for the series

[@robthebitz]

I was just looking as my old space butterfly t-shirt from years ago and remembering so much of the love and joy from watching your content, TB and Dogger too. and this popped up, absolutely beautiful :) this is what FF is about and i cant wait to give it a try myself! Awesome job again mr Cox!

[@hiccupingboots1930]

Jesse I just want to say that yours and the teams passion for this franchise really shined through in this review. The footage, the editing, the script. Great job all of you.

[@Dracobyte]

Yeah!

[@jessecox]

Thank you!

[@heeeyyy2947]

if anything I've always felt like what makes Final Fantasy one of my favorite series is that it IS always changing things up from game to game- keeping familiar elements but constantly challenging what "being a Final Fantasy game" even means so that everything always feels new and exciting- I totally get where people are coming from but if there's something you don't like about one game then you can usually find something else in another (like FFXVI vs the Pixel Remasters)!

[@alenezi989a3]

Exactly, one of the reasons I don't like Tales of series is because I know that almost each one of them plays Exactly the same with minor differences even the story in these games is structured the same way. FF on the other hand always changes I didn't like 11, 13 and 15 but I had no worries that 16 in anyway will be similar to these games, and since I got hooked from the demo I new I will enjoy this one and have been. The fight with a certain Eikon is the most epic fight in video game history imo.

[@WavesWatershine]

@@alenezi989a3I like both Tales and FF. Tales is like my comfort food. My action based Rpg when I don’t feel like getting gibbed and turned into go in a Souls like. FF is my “Where could RPGs go if given a shot?”

[@fernandozavaletabustos205]

Games from Square Enix that have turn-based combat for people that miss that system: - Octopath Traveler 2 - Bravely Default series - Live A Live - Tactics Ogre Reborn - The upcoming SUPER MARIO RPG remake - DQ 11 - FF Pixel Remaster And for those who are longing for an "FF party in the traditional sense", wait for FF 7 Rebirth or the rumored FF 9 remake.

[@Prophes0r]

FF is not a series or a franchise. It is JUST a label. It used to mean "Major SquareSoft RPG #" but doesn't even mean that anymore. There is nothing to identify WITH.

[@alenezi989a3]

@@Prophes0r exactly, each entry is like a new IP.

[@davidlewis5312]

Nothing in this video changes the fact that having played and beat 15, and played 3 hours of this one, I am reminded why I never went back to 15 and won't finish this one. No party, no elemental effects, no buff debuff magic Sorry no. Not sitting through 60+ hours of 16 just to watch Clive stab himself 16 times

[@melaniebiberger2191]

But it has a great story and writing and that is a quintessential part of a classic FF, right?

[@davidlewis5312]

@@melaniebiberger2191 I despise 'the hero gets screwed over in the end' stories. Hated 15 for that when I beat it and after I gave up on this one, I checked the synopsis and YEP

[@greysnake2903]

Does Clive get screwed over to the end?

[@StriderZessei]

@@melaniebiberger2191 16 has one of the worst stories I've seen in gaming, and it has none of the series' trademark charm or humor.

[@Haruka_May]

It's still Final Fantasy, it's just not an RPG.

[@MercanuisYT]

I always remember one quite I think from Sakaguchi-San about how he felt that Final Fantasy is like a toy box; each game is it’s own little toy that a player can come back to again and again. As someone who has been a fan of this series forever, the conversation around 16 doesn’t feel new, but rather a rehash of when 11 came out, or when 13 came out. Change is scary but FF has always been about finding new ways to express a great story

[@Dracobyte]

Indeed!

[@edwardwilson7459]

As someone whos played literally every final fantasy ff16 feels so good. They took a familiar fantasy setting and flipped it upside down. They took 15's combat which already had a flow state that felt INCREDIBLE and cracked it to ♾️.

[@Jackal0321]

It feels like you're trying to defend the whole game by using one narrow strawman.

[@Jackal0321]

I just watched Skill Up's video. He pointed out several themes like being party based and rpg-style gear that are in all other FF games being absent in FF16. Here you're asking about other themes that have been intermittent in the FF series without address those mainstays.

[@SolitudeBliss18]

To me the series has been heading this way since 12, they’ve been adding action elements with each iteration and they finally doubled down and fully immersed themselves in the action game genre to make a true game of the genre.

[@CaptainBrawnson]

They've been adding action elements since the SNES days, when they went from pure turn based to the timer based ATB system.

[@pforgottonsoul]

@@CaptainBrawnson imo turn based combat was never the intention just something they decided due to technical limitations of the time.

[@xXAkirhaXx]

Ya, I've seen this an inevitability since 12 as well. This has been like 20 years in the making, or 15 . However long it's been since 12.

[@ataridc]

doesnt explain why it has to be so dull and humorless when past games could handle adult themes with frequent moments of levity

[@markb1170]

⁠​⁠@@pforgottonsoul all of it reminds me of the same argument RE purists make that the RE series should do a "return to form" i.e. fixed camera angles, never realizing that devs back then would‘ve made the same design decisions done today had the past‘s technology allowed for it. I myself LOVED the fixed camera angles, but I remember kid me wanting badly to see the RPD rendered in 3D. Same thing in FF, I remember imagining as a kid seeing monsters on the field and seamlessly transitioning into battle.

[@Raguball]

Been a fan of yours since old Cata Beta days, watched the hell out of your lets plays over the years but you're on the money that the ecosystem changed and I'm glad you evolved with it because I'm loving this new chapter for the channel - the video was phenomenal and you touched on innovation that can apply to things far beyond just FF. Thanks for all you do and never stop being the one and only Shaboozey!

[@jessecox]

Thank you for your support through the years!

[@sirflimflam]

The only thing I feel like I genuinely miss is..my party. Aside from npc's auto battling on their own, it feels a bit of a lonely experience. Not being able to control these side characters, gear them, etc felt like a bit of a miss for me. But that's really me trying to find something--anything, to complain about.

[@Ashtarte3D]

This is perfectly fair opinion but also not unique to FF16 either. FF13 robbed of us character control and hilariously said "it would be too complicated" after we just had the Gambit system in FF12 which worked great to assign AI routines.

[@koifish835]

Yeah I would have loved a system similar to FF7R where we could switch between characters mid combat it was one of my favorite things about that game. But at least we have FF7 Rebirth coming soon so its not like that gameplay isn't coming back at all. I get they wanted 16 to be more straightforward characters action and I think that's fair enough.

[@SH1NK1R01]

Yeah I’m in the second half of the game and I agree that literally any party mechanics would have been better then the no party we got. And I love the characters kind you, side ones included. But if we had even the ability to do assists for combos, and gear them out it would have made the attachment stronger. It hasn’t been a deal breaker but it’s definitely something I’ve felt as I press on to the end of the game.

[@ihatevnecks7015]

@@Ashtarte3D But even in FF13 we at least got a story about a party of characters (even if I hated nearly every character in that game). You don't even get that much here. That ensemble story has been the core of FF to me since at least the SNES days, but that's gone with 16. Far more so than the combat change, that was the thing that killed my interest.

[@TheShuuman]

@@koifish835 I feel FF7R hit that sweet spot with action and turn based (and fixed a lot of problems I had with 7 in general) I do hope that this system spreads out to other FF games and or the genre in general.

[@crxsades]

I can't speak for old fans as this is my first ff playthrough, but so far i'm really enjoying this series as a whole, it's fantastic writing

[@pennyplaysgames919]

This was so good. Well done Jesse. I personally haven't enjoyed playing a FF game since they went away from the turn based combat but I still love and enjoy learning about each game I haven't played.

[@nantukoprime]

I think every mainline Final Fantasy has this kind of conversation. The topic of conversation changes for each game, but I definitely remember this kind of thing cropping up since I paid attention to games journalism. Which was around FFIX.

[@callsignfatbeard2637]

As an old fan, I feel like this one is bringing me back into the series. I haven’t bought a final fantasy since 12. 15 almost got me to come back in, but reviews convinced me not to. 16 reminded me why I loved final fantasy, and it wasn’t because it was turn based.

[@SergeDuka]

I absolutely loved 15! Even though I played it in the first months of 2020’s lockdown and it didn’t do any good to my depression. I spent hundreds of hours beating every piece of content there is, and the only disappointing thing was that the game was too short.

[@callsignfatbeard2637]

@@SergeDuka I’ve heard better things about the Royal edition, that it added content that fleshed out characters that otherwise didn’t have satisfying arcs. You feel that’s true? Did you play the Royal edition or just the base game?

[@KazaarTV]

@@callsignfatbeard2637 you really should take a look at 15 if you like being sad :D

[@SergeDuka]

@@callsignfatbeard2637 I’ve played the Royal edition. Can’t judge the base one, never played that.

[@sleepinxonxbed]

13, 14 before Naoki Yoshida-P and 15 have their own developmental hell stories that plagued the final result. It very much reflected SQEX's growing pains as they grew massive as a company and had trouble managing their key staff members and having too many people work on the same project that it became super messy. 16 is basically Naoki Yoshida coming in because he is extremely skilled in project management and why the game came out smooth as hell without troubles aside COVID circumstances

[@BlitzWho]

Damn, that was very.... I don't know what word to use here: inspiring, powerful, just straight up awesome? Whatever the word, Jesse you are the best.

[@burningflag3679]

Hi, A good place to start is actually Stranger of Paradise. What systems, mechanics & design elements did that game copy? What aesthetics, world building and lore did they lift? Fire, Fira, Firaga the new naming convention. In additional to many spells found throughout the series. Team Ninja is clearly made of people who grew up, or spent a lot of time playing Final Fantasy games. Jobs systems, characters, chocobo, airships. Even in Team Ninja's weird remake, reimaging they still tick typical boxes. Or Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within. A primary complaint of that movie and FF13. Is both lack many features, staples & traits of the series. For the sake of argument... To me a FF game is deep & or innovative character progression. Magicite, Materia, The Sphere Grid, License Boards are easily some of the best progression in rpgs. Worlds & stories of fantasy, magic, science & nature. An ever changing series of battle systems. The most forgettable main cast of characters to helm a series. Except for a handful of characters. With buckets & buckets of weirdness. Now that said. Yoshida doesn't like the deeper rpg mechanics. See his years of comments as to why systems aren't deeper in 14. And i'm fine with that. Don't have a PS5. But 16 has turned out to be exactly the game I expected. Like down to the letter. Its a single player version of Final Fantasy 14. Combining stylish action combat with skill trees & lite rpg elements. And i'm fine with that. Take care & have a good one

[@shuigor6648]

You referenced Ralph's (SkillUp's) video: he mentioned that while we can still call this a Final Fantasy installment, XVI isn't remotely a role-playing endeavour. In place of character action mechanics, any nuance of role-playing is either diminished or excised entirely (no party members, no semblance of elemental weakness/resistances, no buffs/debuffs, lack of itemization) - no RP in an RPG-centric property. Had XVI not been made a numbered installment and was named like other FF spin-offs such as Strangers of Paradise, Type-0, Crisis Core, Dirge of Cerberus and Crystal Chronicles, I don't think this would have been such an issue.

[@alexclaton]

exactly

[@NabsterHax]

I could also argue that ANY JRPG removes way too much RP compared to something like... Skyrim, or Divinity. Ironically, the thing that attracts me to JRPGs over western RPGs is the fact I often don't have to play a nameless protagonist and the stories usually focus on character development throughout the plot. But they're not role-playing games in the sense that I'm free to make my character a rogue, or a wizard, or w/e. And 16 feels way more like a JRPG with its side-quests and towns than something like 13 which DID have all the things you mentioned in your list of what makes an RPG. Essentially you're making the same argument as the "not my FF" people: "not my JRPG." And to be clear, I don't disagree with you that the game's customization and itemization is quite lacking, I just disagree with your definition of an RPG. Tabletop purists would cringe and recoil at almost any video-game RPG if they were expecting to be able to do whatever they wanted like they can with pen, paper and their imaginations.

[@ZephyrFate]

Well, he's wrong. This is absolutely an RPG.

[@Dracobyte]

If you want a party in the traditional sense, then I suggest to wait for FF 7 Rebirth and the rumored FF 9 remake.

[@Mordai]

Bro great video. Also that TB fragment got to me!!! ❤

[@XTGAMEZ009]

Seriously.. it's a video game.. what matters is you enjoying the game.. doesn't matter what others think, it's your experience not them.

[@TheUnknownDoc]

idk im see more divisive about this game then over game ever release . And about turn base persona 5 , octopath traveler 2 .Not to mention the basics of ff that have been thrown away for this, for example : -progression of the gear - exploration like in FF8 where you went around the world with your garden and discovered villages or even new GFs - Have a group with different equipment skills etc and backgrounds - A system of buffs and debuffs elements that contrast with each other - have impossible bosses as your ultima weapon or yojimbo - Have big daddy Odin coming to kill all in 1 hit And for all says i like the more mature tone , have you ever play an FF ? every FF story is fuckup.

[@Norbert_Sattler]

You brought up a whole host of issues... that nobody seems to really care about, but did not address the one thing that the majority of complaints are about: It is not an RPG. Anyway, here's my opinion on the matter: I think they should have given this game a spinn-off title, rather than a main-line FF title... They've done it with Crisis Core, Tactics, Lightning Returns, Dirge of Cerberus and more already, so why was there this pressing need to call it Final Fantasy 16? For me Final Fantasy means an RPG with a party, not an action game with a single character. I was not fond of how FF13 stretched this party issue and 15 essentially did away with it almost entirely. I love FF14 and have more than 1000 hours in it, but I still think it and 11 should not have been part of the main-line numbering, but given their own line. It's not like this is a matter they couldn't have seen coming either. The very same arguments came after FF13 and FF15 and to a lesser degree also Lightning Returns, but at least that had a different name and wasn't just called Final Fantasy XIII-3. And yet they leaned into the main-line title anyway, either because they didn't care, or because the marketing department expected the "controversy" to happen and work as free advertisment.

[@Gambenoful]

You kind of missed the point. No one is complaining about any of that. People like the turn base aspect of FF. Its part of its charm. The same people who don't like 16 don't like 12, 13 or 15. Some people are OK with 12 since you can technically make it turn base but another charm people like about FF is having a controlled party, which this one lacks. This game plays more like DMCV then FF.

[@AlexMoukalaMusic]

Nicely put, Jesse. Whenever I talk about this subject with fellow FF fans I consider myself freaking lucky, as there's no FF innovation that ever rubbed me the wrong way. The way this game innovates itself every single time is one of its most fascinating aspect for me!

[@Dracobyte]

Glad to see you here! I love your participation in the FF 16 presentation with Soken.

[@jameshickling2641]

Hi! Im an 45yr old long time FF gamer, played them all, far too much, invested 1000s? of hrs into FF franchise. I totally get what you mean about evolving, and Im happy with the amazing story! its a beautiful game and I get how combat can be more like action games like Devil May Cry, but it is missing some key "FF" elements for me. If I defeat a wind based boss and receive a weapon from that fight, why wouldnt it have any wind status effects? by leaving out all forms of status effects, any form of magic not tied to Eikons (eg where is Bio or poison?) when was the last time FF didnt have any revives no Phoenix downs etc? its these small elements that leave it a little flat for me. Maybe this is what old school gamer miss?

[@thakanyeeast]

i get it but i want to pick my actions and form my own strategies. that's why i fell in love with final fantasy. its not fun to just press the attack button to win for me. i beat every final fantasy game (except 14 that's always ongoing lol) but couldn't get through 15. Tried 16 and felt the same. And to me that's just sad because i used to love playing them. But i get it. im old and they have to appeal to the younger generation. at least i still have Persona 😭

[@VesiustheBoneCruncher]

I’ve been playing FF since the mid 90s. As single player goes, this is the best it’s been for me since either IX or XII. It’s very different mechanically, but, that is hardly news at this point. As a story goes, this feels much more like it, *to me*

[@Isnogood12]

9 and 12 are also two of the darkest games in the series, right after 16. Because hoo boy is it DARK.

[@VesiustheBoneCruncher]

@@Isnogood12 what I would say is that the series used to be overtly much darker. 6,7,8,9 and 12 all in separate ways are all very dark, although 6 and 7 also have many moments of comedic relief. In my head canon they all die in 8 at the end of disc 1 - the popular fan theory. I know it is not the actual plot but it makes so much more sense to me. I have increasingly struggled with the trite aspects of the series. I struggle less with absurdist comedy moments in the earlier games, I find it much more natural to switch back into the grim dark of the real situation from stuff for example like the Honey Bee Inn or the Opera, than deal with characters that simply are inadequate to their situation, (Tidus, Hope, Vaan), and don’t grow in ways that really hit home for me narratively.

[@RobotMasterSplash]

​@@VesiustheBoneCruncherIt feels like people have very arbitrary and subjective ideas about what a "dark" tone actually is. Every time I see people talk about this, they seem to draw the lines in different places without even noticing.

[@FF-tp7qs]

FF10 didn't have ATB system, it was more old school turn based, because in ATB, if you do nothing, monsters will keep attacking, but in FF10, monsters do not attack until their turn

[@MaisieSqueak]

He'll spin a situation to support his narrative. The company has made what is majoratively popular... instead of what is true to the series. We will be ignored. Shouted down on social media. Hated. But they took this series away from us. There's no other way to cut it.

[@Lethos1000]

That´s true, FF10-2 on the other hand had ATB, so technically it was not a thing since 2003/2004.

[@Troilus98]

You left out my biggest not-a-final-fantasy criticism which is that it’s not team based. For me, one of the most fun parts of ff is you always adventure with a group of interesting characters.

[@shadowflame68]

You almost *always* have companions with you in 16. Cid, Jill, Torgal, and others. There are so many characters who are with you for the whole ride in your base. And when Final Fantasy 25 is coming out, if it's only got one playable character people will say "it's still a Final Fantasy, 16 did that". Just like FF13-3 already did that. As soon as the series does something, it becomes part of Final Fantasy.

[@davidlewis5312]

@@shadowflame68 just like how 15 and 16 have the same exact nihilistic ending!

[@MaisieSqueak]

They've taken the brand name and stick it on whatever random project they happen to be making. Had them slapped it on Forspoken and added Chocobos, Cid and Moogles everyone would have sung it's praises. The series died after X Now it's just a marketing brand. XVI is a great game... But it isn't Final Fantasy.

[@jman2856]

@@MaisieSqueak It’s Final Fantasy. Cope harder.

[@Radditz770]

Everything Jesse says here is how I feel about Darksiders. There's one more series where every game plays differently, but instead of acknowledging the overall celebration to all action games that that series is, people only like 1 game in the franchise and then they think the rest is ruined because it's not like their favourite. Great video Jesse!

[@MrHeiska01]

It did leave old fans behind about 20 years ago. This new era of Final Fantasy has been around longer than turn based has., depending how you count it.

[@uberculex]

Nah, even 13 was essentially turn based when it got down to it. The decisions you made were the same decisions, just in a different format.

[@yoyomama99]

@@uberculex Then what is the definition of turn based? Even ff 16 can be considered turn based if you look at the fact that you only attack when the enemy gives you the opening, and dodge when the enemy attacks. The pace is all that's different, and the freedom of movesets.

[@uberculex]

@@yoyomama99 That's bad faith, you make decisions based on typical character action games of stringing chains together instead of choosing the best time to switch to healing or focus on tanking. There is no player skill required for things like dodging and it's more up to your decision making during the fight and prep work on builds that determine success in hard fights rather than avoiding damage with well timed button presses. But if you pretend like things have turns, I guess anything can be turn based. ATB muddied the water but it is essentially turn based and 13 is an evolution of ATB where you automatically perform moves based on the roles you've selected.

[@yoyomama99]

@@uberculex yet 16 still retains the FF trope of showing you the name of big attacks before it happens, allowing you to better prepare and memorize it, or heal up before possibly taking a hit. I know my argument can be seen as bad faith, but literally every move can be countered and memorized in 16, the only difference being there is an execution check this time. You can equip titan to prepare for physical attackers, possibly phoenix if you know you're facing a big beast so you can reach the head, you have decisions regarding how your skill rotation is and how will your stagger rotation gonna be like. I concede that you don't have to do think about the game to this degree, it being in essence an "action RPG", but the same goes for old FF games. People like to harp on turn based FF being "strategic", but in reality most of the time what you were doing then is just spamming your strongest attack and healing when your hp is low (believe me, i know my old FF). Newer turn based games are doing it way better, with decisions mattering more (Octopath, Bravely default, Trails series, SMT) and turns being more tight. The new FF7R is WAY more strategic than the old FF 7, while not being turn based and faster paced. On 16 they decided on even more pace and less strategy, with more execution involved. But there's still strategy there, if you are a player who loves it. But i agree that the depth of the combat is a bit shallow for my liking. Nb : 13 is one of the better strategic games that they put out, along with 12 and 10. Most of the old FF games are like what i said, spam your strongest attack and heal. If you wanna categorize 12 and 13 as turn based, i would say it's not the same turn based as the classic FFs were. They were noticably more strategic while also being faster paced. So i don't know what your definition of turn based FF is, because the depth of combat, in say FF 12 with the gambit system, is WAY more than that of FF 4, 5, 6.

[@ZephyrFate]

@@uberculex The Hunts in the normal difficulty and the FF difficulty mode absolutely do require you to pay attention and strategize.

[@mstrzg]

"you most likely became a fan because of a risk or change" well done sir

[@DuhblinnZA]

4:54 I've been wracking my brain for days trying to figure out what makes this feel "not Final Fantasy" too me, but I think it comes down to lack of proper RPG mechanics (everything is so basic) and lack of really good party (so much of the game is solo, can't gear or spec party members, often forget they are there even). I get that this already changed with 15 but they fixed it later, and at least had much better combo opportunities. I've played every mainline Final Fantasy game, most of them multiple times, and they always have a moment, a point where I feel; yes, this is Final Fantasy. I haven't had that in 16 at all. This is Witcher May Cry: Chocobo Edition. And don't get me wrong. I think it's good. I'm quite enjoying, few chapters from finishing. I just feel this could have been new IP instead. And personally I have zero motivation to Platinum this. Weird thought, but I actually think by making this a mainline FF game, they are holding it back. It could've been so much more as a new game with it's own ideas and concepts, and dropping some mechanics I'm sure are only there because they didn't want to stray away from old FF entirely. 8:07 My thoughts here on the Game of Thrones thing. I just feel they took too much. Clive has too many Jon Snow inspirations, the presentation felt more like a movie than a game(even have cliffhanger fade to black transitions as if they were episodes), and the plot with Annabella and Olivier, c'mon, telling me that wasn't straight up GoT? Sure with a twist, but still...

[@sammoisture4876]

I’m a new fan whose only beaten ff7, ff6, ff7 remake, and this game. But I have to agree with you on the gameplay. There’s something missing from 16 that the 3 games I’ve played have. It’s not turn based combat because ff7 remake works I think and is my favorite combat system. For me, it’s lack of tactical rpg gameplay and playable party members. The tactical rpg gameplay is kinda there but very bland and no controllable members hurt me. My thoughts might change as I plan to play more FFs as FF9 is next on the list. I still liked the game tho. I gave it a 7.5. But yeah, it was lacking on the rpg content.

[@codyfandrich1890]

This guy gets it

[@TrinityRodas]

Well fucking done! As a FF7 fan, who remembers sitting on the floor as close as I could to the TV playing it for hours. Final Fantasy has always taken risks... and I am so proud to see them continue to take them, even if they sometimes fail when they succeed they exceed.

[@SuperLekan12]

It's always taken risk but still had a common theme. FF16 is not a rpg. All Final fantasy games were party based, rpg with an element of strategy in their combat, like command based, status ailments and elemental consideration. This one is just straight action, aside from the name and crystals it rejects all the themes present in the previous games. so naturally some will be skeptical. If taking risks is all that matters, genuine question how would you feel if ff17 was a first-person looter shooter based in modern texas...would it still be final fantasy as long as it has the classic final fantasy music, crystals and great cutscenes?

[@TrinityRodas]

@@SuperLekan12 It is not a first person shooter though. And we at least still have tactics. Games evolve, but we can always go back to the other ones.

[@TheGreatAmarant72]

@@TrinityRodasit’s literally Devil may cry, it has 3 enemies and it’s equipment and level up system is pointless.

[@wrathava]

​@TheGreatAmarant72 good I don't want to do pointless 'rpg' grind to reach next story quest. it being like devil may cry is a positive. I will take that over it being like a niche jrpg which looks outdated.

[@TheGreatAmarant72]

@@wrathava you are literally asking Final fantasy to become a different game….and you don’t see an issue with that?…

[@PsychoDroid]

The main gripe for me, is the cosmetic RPG system in this game. Levels are pointless and don't mean anything. I was hunting things 10 levels above me with no problem. The combat while good and flashy isn't very fleshed out for me. I feel like trying to do all these fancy combos doesn't equate to anything. Maybe if I was rewarded more experience based off my combos or something like a DMC, it's mainly just for arcade mode. I don't like the fact that there are no status effects anymore. Remember when Bad Breath did something? Now, all I do is fall down. Not being able to customize "party" members, be it abilities, equipment, or even the way AI controls is another thing. The sense of exploration is non-existent. I no longer feel the need to go out of my way in hopes of finding a chest with gear that would help buff my character. It's great more people are getting into it and are buying the game, that's the point, but it's just no longer a game for me and that's totally fine. There are a lot of games out there.

[@user-gc1wj8tt2p]

I feel like exploration in final fantasy is whats the most missing here. imagine in other ffs you go out of your way and you see a moogle or chocobo forest, bringing that to this game would had been massive! Sidequest really brings lore but the items rewarded ain't really special, other than that the game is really good with great story and cool characters! Battle system is great but could be better but for sure the game is still great.

[@zano25]

All very well said. I'm a huge Final Fantasy fan, but there are still a few entries that really don't work for me, and that's fine. At this point, as an older fan, I just love seeing where the series has been and am just excited to see where it goes now.

[@ismejks]

Pushing the boundary? Since ff13 they cut HD cities cut Character's story cut Party members cut RPG elements Recent FF stopped pushing boundary since ff13 and taking step back. And influncers ignored those big issue and lying ppl

[@Tobber_Commenter]

This is the man I grew up watching. Let your voice be heard for it is spouting wisdom! Not every Final Fantasy is my cup of tea, but it's always exciting to see what the games have to offer. 16 is no exception when it comes to great and not-so-great elements, however, there is love put into the game, and all that love fuels the game experience.

[@ormoffat]

What a FANTASTIC video. I was never really hooked on Final Fantasy as a kid despite loving Chrono Trigger and RPGs like it. I was really wary and skeptical of FF14 as an MMO and for a long time I rolled my eyes at it. Watching your WoW vs. FF14 comparison video began to shift my view. One night I was feeling particularly down and Jesse was playing FF14 on Twitch and I just needed a distraction. I guess it was a new patch and watching that stream I GOT IT. And after warming up to your FF14 streams I decided to learn more. Recently I've been starting my journey in FF14 and loving it! I didn't know until close to the launch of FF16 that we were getting a new main line game. But seeing Jesse's coverage here of the demos and theories as well as trailers I knew it would be right up my alley. I get that it SUCKS to be the person a new entry doesn't click with. I have plenty of friends who started the MCU in phase 4 and love it where my love has been dwindling. But I'm glad they enjoy it. I hope some day soon there will be an entry we old and new fans BOTH adore for MCU fans AND Final Fantasy fans.

[@MistyKathrine]

1:08 4-9 (or even 10) were all pretty consistent and fairly conservative with their gameplay. They pushed the boundries graphics wise but all them delivered a pretty consistent and similar gameplay experience, which is not something that can be said with 11-16. When people talk about the "golden age" of Final Fantasy they usually mean 4-10.

[@ToshiroHitsu]

Wrong

[@MistyKathrine]

@@ToshiroHitsu No, I'm right. The vast majority of time spent in those games in combat, and how those games play in combat is all really similar and deliver a similar game-play experience. This is not something that can be said for 11-16 as they all deliver a vastly different gameplay experience from each other and it's predecessors.

[@uzumakikazu]

I'm def one of those that got hooked on a risk. 10-2 was one of the first I played and bought with my own money, even before 10, and I have since went back and played almost every main line FF.

[@TrvisXXIII]

Same!! X-2 was my first game, I was so confused but loved the combat, ironically every game’s story afterwards was so confusing to me that I assumed that’s how the franchise was until I went back and played X. I was so surprised by how easy to understand it was 😂

[@taliamirai970]

This was such an amazing video. So well produced and perfectly articulated. I can't say I'm at all enthused about trying FF16 any time soon, but part of the reason why I've come to love the FF series is because of how they continue to innovate and explore new approaches.

[@jessecox]

I'm glad you enjoyed the video!

[@thegentlemanfish7504]

FF16 isn't a traditional FF buts it's freaking good

[@queenmarsia]

i watched the video and it made me realise that you missed the point, but not completely. there is an idea of what final fantasy is suppose to be, FF16 is not it however. and no it isnt because its not turnbased gameplay. Wheres all the side content? Just fetch quests? wheres all the deep and enriched gameplay customization? wheres the rewarding exploration/airships? wheres the minigames? no chocobo racing/breeding/treasure hunting/raising systems or a new chocobo system? wheres the unique take on the genre its adopting? all it did was 1 for 1 copy DMC's? No stealing? no fishing? no white/black/blue/time magic? i could go on for an endless list here but Final fantasy isnt just these things, What we got instead is a Western RPG with Final fantasy aesthetics. its not just about fast, flashy gameplay and long-winded storytelling. It's that, plus much, much more. This is not final fantasy. but with all that being said, its still a fun game where it counts.

[@nv3003]

I've had a hard time getting my younger brother to play anything FF. Funny enough, Last Story got him interested, and then FF14 clinched it. I'm glad for this editorial, and I'm glad you're still around Jesse. But let's talk about spin-offs: I hope we get another Vagrant Story! Old fans love the world of Ivelice, so much that it no longer fits "final fantasy" because it's got legs, no way that world can die. Keep taking risks Squeenix!

[@SkribbleNL]

Yeah risks are so important for gaming as a whole, always annoys me when people don't want companies to take risk (although I understand it).

[@tarodeculture]

I enjoyed The Last Story a lot. Loved the characters. I just wished it got the popularity that Xenoblade did...

[@danielhutchings5602]

ill make it as simple and un-nuanced as possible for you. Every other mainline Final Fantasy game is an RPG. 16 is not an RPG.

[@BadrulAlom-goomblepop]

I just want a game where: - battles are more tactical than button mashing - you tend to grind to help overcome tougher bosses - you can control different characters, each of whom have different mix of abilities - there is a sense of freedom rather than feeling like you are on a conveyor belt Looked through that lens, theres a large bulk of FF games that fall in this category despite experimenting. That is what FF fans mean when they refer to classic FF games.

[@virrre]

FF16 is a Final Fantasy game, sure. But to be specific you should call it an action game without RPG mechanics. There is no party system, equipment choice, jobs, magic, materia, skill grid. Leveling and equipment is purely cosmetic and has no choices or customization tied to it. Your next weapon has +5 more damage than the last one. The only thing you select is which 3 extra skills and 6 cooldown abilities you're gonna rotate through. When you get hit by Malboro's bad breath attack you only take damage, because this game doesn't have any status effects like blind, poison, confuse or silence. If you attack the fire bomb with fire attacks it does the same damage as any other element because no elemental affinities/weaknesses exist. FF16 is like playing Bayonetta or DMC but you only have light attack and one weapon/stance for the 40 hours it takes to beat it.

[@iceman344]

Marvelous video, you guys did an awesome job! While I agree to all your arguments, when I make points about things I dont like like for example - the gear system is bad - magic is obsolete when there aren't elemental weaknesses - so is the Morbol when there're no status effects and the responses are "Clive is a hottie and Torgal is a good boy so gfy" it's really difficult to support the discussion 😅

[@idleeidolon]

better to criticize the game for what it is, than for what it wasn't or what you wished it to be. the misses in this game: - gear and loot is off. it gets better mid-game once you have a larger number of gear that interacts with the eikon abilities, but tha'ts 25 hours in. for 25 hours you just have straight up simplistic upgrades, and bad drops from chests in the world. simple gearing was fine when you had an entire party to gear. doesn't work so well when you're just gearing one character. there's so many things the gear can interact with other than the eikon abilities -- parry, dodges, air attacks, magic attacks, physical damage, will damage, etc. but instead, most of the time, the gear is just a straight up upgrade: bigger number, bigger damage. -side-quests not having branching outcomes is a missed opportunity. since they're mostly divorced from the MSQ, it could have been a perfect way to put more RPG in this ARPG. -party AI. the enemies in this game are balanced around just your primary damage output, and torgals, and the AI party members only act, when you act. just stand still, and you notice they'll do nothing. they'll follow your lead, so you're the star of the show. the drawback of this is that most of the time, it seems they're doing nothing. they should look back to the party AI mechanics of 12, and KH1 and 2, and rebalance mobs to consider AI damage output. that way they don't seem like superfluous decorations.

[@u13erfitz]

I mean the gearing system is the same trash in modern action RPG games. It's worse than Hogwarts's and that's a snooze fest.

[@Mr83nn0]

I haven't played it, but I'm slowly getting myself through your play through. And this story feels final fantasy as heck from what I've seen. That said, for me a part of playing the FF games has been overleveling and grinding stuff before going forward. And after 12 I haven't felt like you've gotten anything from doing that (or even couldn't). I do miss going in with the aim to reach max level. But I don't have the time that I used to so maybe it's a good evolution. And still have no idea how this pertains to 16. And having watched 10h of your play through I'm still kind of curious of trying it for myself.

[@raven12333]

Well, im at 66% story according to ps5 counter, im lvl 40, story enemies are lvl 33 and i slain s rank mark lvl 50 while i was 38 (humble brag cause i did it without timely rings XD) so level doesn't mean much because as i said i could defeat mark 12 lvl above me but a group of story enemies in a small space nearly decimated me because i messed up a dodge and got hit multiple times while i was hit-stunned.

[@madness1931]

As someone who loved the turn based combat, hated the half turn and half real time combat, I love the the complete real time combat. FF16's combat feels great. It's the best combat since FF10. I've been saying "not my Final Fantasy" since the PS2 era, so it feels good to finally play a FF game that I enjoy playing (not just watching). On that note, I'm also enjoying the story, and setting. They've done a really good job. As a fan of Final Fantasy, all I can say is: Give me more. It's some of the best it has been in over a decade.

[@ultraginge1990]

I have been playing FF games for 25 years. They have not let me down. I’m happy they are getting more mainstream as that means they can put more effort into producing them. But I do miss the older style. I think they will likely come back to the turn based systems down the road and I am happy about that.

[@sathrielsatanson]

Oh damn, if FF has never let you down... oh boy.

[@lindsaygoode9197]

Thank you for making this. You put exactly my thoughts into words. Like I love the series because of how different each one is.

[@risingdawn6393]

Same. One of the reasons I almost didn't pick up 16 is because it did not have what felt like that "unique to FF only feeling" in it's appearance. But, in hindsight, 16 *is* the only FF in the mainline that has that truly western medieval look to it.

[@perkosean]

Each one's different but each one has similarities to where this one hardly has any similarities. Each one had party system there is no parties in this one. Each one of those games has status ailments and Elemental weaknesses where this one doesn't have any of them. Each of those games had mini games inside of the game this one does not. The combat is not the only reason that people are not liking this.

[@unrrear]

i mean isnt the biggest "fault" with the game, that ive heard at least, is the dumbing down of the rpg elements? its the main thing ive heard and well you didnt really address this in the video jesse you addressed everything else except that

[@virys.5887]

In case of adult themes: I remember FF14 Stormblood, where two soldiers are Shittalking about Fordola Sleeping herself up the ranks….

[@Marauding_Llama]

The risks absolutely got me into the series. FF8 was my first and still favourite, but I've enjoyed the rest just as much.

[@theowilliams100]

Lack of party dynamics, status effects and elemental affinities. Just 3 things that make an FF game an FF game. If you watched Skill Ups video you would understand this.

[@wildnexus1]

I've had the opposite thought. I've been waning on FF for years since I'm not much on the MMO side (too addictive) and was falling off the series since 13. Watching you play the Final Fantasy 16 demo made me super excited for the series again. It reminded me of what I loved about the series and am excited to see their interpretation of an action based system. Hell, it made me get a PS5 and I'm having a blast with the game.

[@marcusclark1339]

which is just a core problem of the series dropping off since it stopped doing what it used to do well not so much a series that needed to throw away its actual design just woe to a series losing identity

[@wildnexus1]

@@marcusclark1339 I fell off the series because I felt the story telling/gameplay wasn't as strong in the single player experiences they were putting out. I've sworn off MMO's and the multi media spread/open world for FFXV just wasn't it for me. Mind you I am a KH fan so having to go through multiple platforms/media isn't too much of an issue, the story and open world experience didn't appeal to me personally. I personally do not have a "this is what final fantasy is" mindset since it really hasn't been a consistent series and has tried something new. FF isn't a Dragon Quest. It's always been it's own thing that evolves and changes. Just because it stopped hooking me does not mean I think the series was bad by any means.

[@ZephyrFate]

@@marcusclark1339 XVI has a clear identity and most people are vibing with it. I hope the series continues this direction.

[@ChaseYojimbo]

I'm not able to afford FF16 yet, but I've watched the first 8 hours of the game up to the end of the Garuda fight. It is probably the most excited I have ever been to pay a game. I feel like a kid watching the story play out. I think people forget how insanely dark the story line of older games was. I actually don't understand why people are going #NotMyFF, when this is probably the most Final Fantasy Final Fantasy I have ever seen. Been playing since the beginning with FF1 on Nintendo playing with my brothers as a kid. FF16 is true to form, and is a true Final Fantasy by every metric.

[@alenezi989a3]

Dude the Garuda fight is nothing compared to how epic these fights get later on especially since the control over ifrit gets better and better until you reach a point where you're doing as many combos as Clive can.

[@christylbk]

I assume it is people that miss turn based mechanics. I don't know about this one but the monster fights started taking forever to kill and usually that was only an issue at the final level in previous games. I have finally given up on final fantasy and stopped even bothering to looking at it especially since I don't buy consoles anymore and only play on pc. I really don't want to spend a ton of money on sub par hardware because of this exclusive bs that should die already.

[@mugendono23]

Same here, been playing the Final Fantasy series since the Nintendo days and I am loving 16.

[@Prophes0r]

I'll explain it then, since no one else seems to get it... There is no such thing as a "Final Fantasy" game. Which is why people constantly seem to feel like the newest one doesn't vibe with them like a previous one did. They are not a series. They are not a franchise. They are a label that USED to mean "The big SquareSoft RPG". They will be an RPG. They will have multiple characters that will probably rotate. The story will be big in scale. ...aaaaand that's it. The "Franchaise" is imaginary. It is a forced thing. They share a title, a Yoshitaka Amano logo, and some staff.

[@miguelnewmexico8641]

@@Prophes0r you never played outside as a kid did ya?

[@yanggang7]

For me, the reason FF16 feels like it’s left behind the FF formula is simply that it’s not actually an RPG. We started to see the writing on the wall with 15 when you couldn’t control your party and combat was far more action and combo-based, but 16 is an even greater departure. I think it’s fair for fans of the franchise to have a problem with this. If the next Resident Evil was made a turn-based or tactical rpg in effort to “bring in a new audience”, we wouldn’t blame Resident Evil fans for feeling abandoned. The same is true for FF.

[@TheStormscast]

Amazing work Jessie! Couldn't agree more. My favourites in the series are Tactics Advance & the DS version of 4. I think Yoshi-P and the team have done a stellar job!

[@thatguy-dh1qh]

Man this is everything I was thinking about to myself yesterday. Great video. The series is about taking risks and pushing the envelope. It seems every game is divisive at launch then praised later on after its had time to settle in people's minds

[@hamez877]

how are people not realizing that FF stopped being a full blown turn based rpg 20 years ago when 10 came out and they cut equipment down to essentially 3 types.

[@paulj6805]

10 is the most objectively turn-based final fantasy since 4....

[@brock2443]

XIII was turns based.

[@HolyHadou]

I think Skillup was particularly frustrated with the lack of RPG customization/elemental infulence/weapon build type things that you'd find in most other RPGs. Still you raise a good point and this is inspiring. Also Fans never agree on anything so this is just par for the course.

[@ZephyrFate]

I think there are absolutely builds and customization, though, but it's in your Eikons (which also totally function as "jobs" from other FFs, if you break them down). Accessories also help augment and tweak these jobs to complete the build.

[@HolyHadou]

@@ZephyrFate It probably works for you but not for him. I will say that I'm a PS4 Pleb that hasn't played yet but wants to but one point of contention that I'm vexed by is that there doesn't seem to be any sort of element strong weak system in play. Like you can kill a bomb with fire attacks. At least according to Skillup's review. That just feels wrong IMO but I haven't played it so...

[@ZephyrFate]

@@HolyHadou There are no elemental affinities, but each elemental Eikon functions like its own FF job. I think it would make the combat annoying if weaknesses/resistances were also included. I also don't think these are fundamental to FF gameplay. Very rarely does the series ever force you to only tackle an objective through weaknesses/resistances.

[@HolyHadou]

@@ZephyrFate I get what you're saying but the fundamental complexities of an RPG when you exploit certain enemy elemental type matching was kind of a fun thing to work around. By no means solely an FF thing but not having it seems weird. And again, killing a bomb with fire attacks seems weird. But if you're having a good time... play on. I still want to give it a go but that requires money I'm not ready to spend.

[@braytastic]

This is one of the best videos ive seen this year. Not even a big Final Fantasy guy. The editing, writing, personality. Idk Jesse, you hit the nail on the head this one, happy to hear how happy you're feeling!

[@spideyknight]

Respect, but you are missing something here. There is one thing that was always true. Group based combat and a character based story. All FF's had these two things. FF16 does not. That is what skill up was talking about and how he was correct.

[@slapdatbutton8931]

I actually had very similar questions and arguments about how each game was different, especially in the old ones. Particularly the different battle systems which you talk about starting at 4:46! Great video!

[@bradford433]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I feel like the series left me behind with this one. It's a spectacle fighter now, and for people who want that, that's 100% okay. I don't just miss the ATB system, but turn-based Final Fantasy in general, where you have party members who you control, who each take specific actions you designate for them and aren't just on auto-pilot. This series isn't for me anymore, and I've accepted that. There's an almost infinite amount of turn-based RPGs out there for me to play.

[@Kairamek]

May I suggest Bravely Default? The first two are trapped on 3DS right now but Bravely Default 2 is on PC and modern consoles. All three feel like the evolution of FF5.

[@BlaBlaBla-76]

Agreed with op 100%. I will stick to gems like the Trails series, Octopath, Bravely, Dragon Quest etc etc. Enough good turn based games elsrwhere! 😊

[@bradford433]

​@@Kairamek I'll check it out. Have always heard good things about the series. How does Bravely Default 2 compare with the first two? Are they all separate stories?

[@Kairamek]

@bradford433 Bravely Second is a direct sequel. Bravely Default 2 is separate thing.

[@Dracobyte]

If you want that, then I suggest to wait for FF 7 Rebirth and the rumored FF 9 remake.