Did Garak Blow Up Vreenak's Shuttle? (Trek, Actually Comment Responses)

[@KayleighBourquin]

Being called both a bastard and an asshole is how I know I'm loved. Thanks Steve 💖

[@gabrielmichelson9830]

"Keep firing, assholes!"

[@AshenSeraph]

If it works for Phillip DeFranco's audience, why not here?

[@StarkRG]

I was expecting "dickwads" next, but Steve wussed out.

[@DarhathOfNaz]

@@AshenSeraph As a PhillyD fan, I feel this.

[@Tony-dh7mz]

@@gabrielmichelson9830 That reminds me... You know what you get when you have "Magic Beans"?.... Beanstalk? No, "Magic Farts"

[@RobertJazo]

If you really want to see how far the rabbit hole goes with Garak “In the Pale Moonlight”, ask yourself this- Did he even reach out to his former contacts on Cardassia? It’s certainly possible he did, but I feel it’s equally possible that he hatched the forgery plan after Sisko reached out to him the first time and merely lied to Sisko about his contacts being killed off.

[@michaelallen1432]

Sisko didn't need to know they had been killed years ago. It made it easier that way.

[@scaper8]

And remember that what Garak suggests Sisko say about the fake plan, that a whole bunch of people died to get it, is more or less exactly what Garak just told Sisko had happened.

[@Dispaminite]

@@scaper8 The Bio-memetic Gel that he needed as payment for the Isolinear Rod could be used as an explosive, which begs the question is did he already have one and just needed the gel to make the explosion to blow up Vreenak's ship.

[@JessieGender1]

Shit, Steve has figured out my tactic of just singing a song when you can’t think of anything

[@gozerthegozarian9500]

Good for him! More youtubers should do that, it's very charming!

[@trekjudas]

BURN!!!

[@trekjudas]

We know the real origin of the Burn, it was Jessie!!

[@chrismarshall7131]

Hey, if it works. I'll randomly shuffle dance when I'm on the spot, and it distracts my bosses nearly every time.

[@StarkRG]

"Why are you singing?" "I panicked!"

[@johnsohn653]

Of course not he was hemming pants at the time. After all he's just a simple tailor.

[@kathrynck]

The sad part is, that he's a very good tailor.

[@weldonwin]

He's just plain, ordinary Garak

[@roxyseilbrett3122]

*gardener

[@GoodAvatar]

Something he's never shy about informing everyone about.

[@jamesdaly83]

If you watch In the Pale Moonlight again, you can see that Jadzia not only would have known full well what Sisko did after their conversations... she actually kinda incepts the broad plan into Sisko's mind in the first place, and keeps gently pushing Sisko in the 'right' direction throughout the episode. People think Garak is sneaky, but she's totally the shadowy mastermind behind the whole thing.

[@bae_ofpigz]

she's playing the generations-long-game to rule the entire galaxy

[@shamsham1229]

@@bae_ofpigz The true master behind The Burn

[@focusedonfuture3255]

And Terry Farrel plays her beautifully. Dax is stunning but deadly, like a cobra.

[@locutus9956]

Im not so sure on this one, I kind of always assumed Organic explosives were along the lines of the terrorists that took over enterprise (ie you can make an explosive that can be injected into someone etc.... then again I guess Garak could have used that kind of thing on Vreenak or one of his bodyguards.... ooooh there might be something to this I never even considered...

[@Everilid]

@@shamsham1229 god if only.

[@nathansnerdynook]

I can't believe I never caught that biomimetic gel thing. I just went back to watch the scene to check, and sure enough, the dangerous uses Bashir mentions are (1) biogenic weapons, (2) illegal replication experiments, (3) ORGANIC EXPLOSIVES. Sisko even cuts him off *just* as he gets that last one out, which is a classic "nothing to see here" writer's trick.

[@iwilsonjr]

Not to mention, one good way of cleaning up any loose ends. Garak knows how to clean up well ;-)

[@TheFinePool]

@Liver Success I'm believing that he had the rod needed all along since he had been in the Obsidian Order, and was also someone higher up to boot. I think He wanted the gel as a back up and possibly for some other shady thing, he did pause the turbo lift to mention the price could be haggled down, and mentioned that there would be nowhere else to get one.

[@RadioJosiah]

Garak mentions this trick to manufacturing credulity: "You will tell the Senator that this information was obtained through various covert means at great cost to the Federation. At least ten good men lost their lives bringing it across the line, that sort of thing." Earlier in the same episode, he employs THAT SAME TACTIC on Sisko: "It would mean calling in all my favors, Captain. To do what you're asking would use up every resource I have left on Cardassia." Suppose he already had the rod... and the deception becomes transparent. He needed to convince Sisko the rod would be hard to get, so that he could dangle it as leverage for an item that actually would be hard to get: the bio-mimetic gel. And of COURSE he would need something unconventional to use for his bomb-- he could not risk the security systems for either the station or the Romulan shuttle picking it up! And where else would he have come up with a bomb? Think Odo wouldn't notice him getting one some other way? It would have been sloppy of him not to utilize his best resource for procurement: direct access to the station commander.

[@michaelallen1432]

​​​​@liversuccess1420There was never a guy who he was going to trade the gel to for the data rod. Whether or not the source of the rod wanted the gel or something else, Garak probably just killed him and took the rod, assuming that he hadn't already killed someone and taken the rod. Once again. Loose ends. He couldn't leave someone out there that can tell anyone that Garak ever got one.

[@michaelallen1432]

The real question is, was this even Siskos plan. Or was it Garaks. And if it was, how long had he been carefully manipulating Sisko and getting him ready for the point where he'd be ready to do what was necessary, and to think he came up with it himself. Presumably it would have been a backup plan. If the federation could defeat the dominion, then none of it would have been necessary. Was it after the Dominion took Cardssia. And if he didn't simply trade it to a contact for the gel, where did he get the data rod? Could he have taken it from Tain. Perhaps he had knowledge of Tain having some and took one or more before leaving the ship with Odo. Then presumably just held on to his previous little stash until a diabolical plan came to mind.

[@andromidius]

Fringe brilliance: the explosives were in the Romulan Ale that Vreenak drank. It explains why the 'aroma' isn't quite right. We're led to believe its because its replicated - but Garak likes to throw curve balls. The fact its replicated means Vreenak doesn't suspect its a bomb - if he was given real Romulan Ale he'd have immediately realised something wasn't right with it!

[@raven4k998]

Garek was always great at killing in intelligent ways

[@michaelallen1432]

I think your right. If you think about it, biomimetic gel is treated as if it were one of the most highly controlled substances in the federation. Biogenic weapons are certainly a big deal. Illegal replication experiments. That makes sense. But organic explosives? That's not even worth listing. It's like saying, no, you can't have 10kg of weapons grade plutonium. It can be used for making nuclear warheads, dirty bombs, radioisotope power generators, and it's highly toxic and could be used to poison people. Nuclear weapons are a big deal,as are dirty bombs. The radioisotope generator is not particularly harmful, but certainly a very legitimate application. But seriously, poisoning people with it? You COULD but why would you waste something so valuable when some cyanide would do the job. You kind of get the idea that organic explosives are something particularly nasty. More so that just being hard to detect, although that's a problem. And the descriptions of the other things that biomimetic gel can do sort of suggest that. Making a bomb that you can sneak through most any security is bad. But turning unsuspecting people INTO the bomb with a contaminated beverage is something horrifying enough to join the rest of the list.

[@alanpennie8013]

I've always understood that Will Riker owes his existence to fan annoyance at Kirk leading every away mission and neglecting his duties as Captain.

[@Onomast]

And he inherited the way with the ladys too.

[@satyrquaze]

Yeah, that's not the only reason he owes his existence to Kirk.

[@TenOfZero1]

That makes sense

[@thecartruthreport8451]

I always joke with my friend that somewhere in the Star Fleet Charter, there is a section where it says, "You get one treason or mutiny, but just the one, after that we might get angry"

[@raven4k998]

lets poison that planet and play the good guys afterwards🤣

[@romulino]

I read the jadzia line as: Yeah, she's a little crazy too, has always been, if sisko turned evil at some point I'm sure Dex would just go "Hell yeah, count me in!"

[@weldonwin]

Well, Dax was retconned as having one of their previous hosts be a serial killer. Tobin Dax got re-written from being a breathtakingly talented but deeply troubled musician, who killed a man in a desperate bid to prevent his symbiote from being taken away, to being the Trill version of Jack The Ripper

[@locutus9956]

Dax has always been a bit nuts anyway, hell she swore a blood oath of vengeance with her Klingon buddies and WENT THROUGH WITH IT. Shes not averse to walking a bit on the dark side when it suits her. Also as someone else pointed out above, unless shes the biggest idiot in the galaxy Im sure she must have figured out at least PART of the truth about 'In the Pale Moonlight' given she and Sisko were chatting at lenght about how to get the Romualns into to the war, then Sisko wanders off for a few days, acts very suspicious for a while and then a few days later oh look the Romulans Declare war..... (she of course doesnt even bat an eye at this)

[@falkenvir]

She eventually married a Klingon, so... yeah

[@davebathgate]

@@weldonwin Tobin was the engineer. Turias was the serial killer musician.

[@normanbuchwald]

Worf gets leniency for killing Duras and attempted ritual slaying of his brother (both via based on Klingon Honor) but reprimanded for saving his wife. Go figure. :P

[@andromidius]

Well it makes some kind of sense. There was no negative consequence to his previous actions, whereas saving Jadzia resulted in the loss of a valuable double agent who could have potentially saved thousands of lives. Plus he was on active duty at the time with a vital mission.

[@Kameth]

He should of claimed by saving his wife he was performing a sacred Klingon ritual of... whatever, its not like they're going to look it up.

[@miladyblue5077]

Let's not forget, he does not seem to get into ANY trouble for the death of Chancellor Gowron. Amongst the Klingons, it was a matter of honor - Gowron and Worf got into a fight over principle, which is normal/accepted in Klingon society. But wouldn't THAT be considered the assassination of a head of state, in the Federation's legal view?

[@hanskeller9777]

He actually did get reprimanded for killing Duras. Picard explicitly stated that it would be on his record right after sympathizing with him for losing K'Ehlyr.

[@skittles7306]

I chuck it down to the stress the war had on Sisko...

[@Tucsonwolfman]

Ah. We've reached the musical episode. Neat.

[@spoke2639]

I always took Dax’s line “I love it when the bad guys win” as her subtly criticizing and condemning his actions. Kind of a sarcastic, “congratulations Ben, you have officially become the villain of this episode”.

[@metalheadnick555]

The only thing is she kind of eggs him on earlier in the episode when Sisko seems to almost be looking for someone to tell him to back down.

[@amandaforrester7636]

Me, too. She's a very sarcastic character. It's kind of fitting for her?

[@eriks2962]

Didn't sisko and jadzia talk early in that episode about how sisko has to become the bad guy if they are in Les Miserables ?

[@tbeller80]

At the very end she asks him "You didn't get Starfleet's permission to do that, did you?" It's a very important question, but she was asking it to be funny.

[@justaloe]

"In the Pale Moonlight" is my favorite episode in the entire Star Trek canon and now thanks to this video. I'm going to watch it again with new eyes and pick up on all of the clues I missed. Thanks guys.

[@bolasdefraile]

I once begun explaining the "pale moonlight" to my wife and we ended watching the entire DS9 to give her context. As you said the best episode of ST.

[@danieltilson4053]

One thing about Sisko's actions in poisoning the planet, it only made it uninhabitable to humans. The Cardassians were able to move in and live there just fine. Just like the humans were able to move to the planet that the Maquis poisoned with their Biogenic weapon. So really, all Sisko did, was force the Maquis and Cardassians to go along with the original terms of the treaty.

[@euansmith3699]

I'd like to see a Star Trek series based around a dedicated Away Team, with the Bridge Crew acting as back-up characters. With a cast of more or less disposable characters, the jeopardy in missions could be far higher than usual.

[@whowantstono8881]

He!! yes. Finally! Someone gets it!

[@samschulman3663]

Lower decks comes remarkably close to that

[@bolasdefraile]

With George Martin as guest writer....

[@EdDale44135]

I’m in!

[@KGillis]

Garak knew from the beginning the fake wouldn't hold up, or at least there was a good chance. He planned to blow up the shuttle all along, but of course he knew Sisko would stop him if he mentioned it. Outright assassination is more than he could ask for from a decorated Starfleet officer.

[@raven4k998]

so he kept quiet about it planned it out and made it happen behind the scenes and Sisko got totally surprised by that one cause of how good Garak was at doing it behind the scenes

[@CmdrKing]

TNG separating Riker into a distinct First Officer post who lead away missions had another perk: when Picard *did* go on missions, it was almost always for diplomatic missions, something that would call for the highest ranked available officer. I mean they still routinely sent the first and second officers and chief engineer on the same mission, but hey, it makes some sort of sense.

[@chrisborland6787]

Garak also already had the optolythic data rod. The whole story was to create pressure to obtain the biomimetic gel. Think back to how Garak tells Sisko on how to tell a story to the Romulan sentor about the people who had to sacrifice themselves to get that optolythic data rod. Garak just used the same kind of storyline when he said all his contacts were killed off when he supposedly inquired about getting the optolythic data rod in the first place. Killing the Romulan sentor with the faked optolythic data rod was always the plan.

[@benjbk]

"That's probably just something the writers forgot about." Or it's something the writers hoped everybody else would forget about. ;-)

[@satyrquaze]

My thought was since dilithium doesn't actually power Starfleet ships, it just helps regulate the matter/anti-matter reaction, perhaps Romulans do use dilithium in a similar way for their singularity drives.

[@joshdaniels2363]

Re: the Romulans and the Burn, I'd just have assumed that Romulan society just never really recovered after their homeworld's destruction. They probably never regained their status as an Alpha Quadrant power, and it's reasonable to assume that reunification finally happened because it was the easiest way for surviving Romulan refugees to find a new home (which they would have to share with their Vulcan cousins). The Vulcans were using dilithium-based warp drives, and probably had no interest in the Romulans' quantum-singularity based tech; they might have even required them to abandon whatever remained of their fleet as a condition for reunification.

[@RadzPrower]

@@claytonberg721 Yeah, but you'd think they would dust off that old non-dilithium tech when it became scarce.

[@Trekfan04]

We're told they use the singularity drive, but that doesn't exclude the use of dilithium to somehow regulate everything as it does in a warp drive.

[@stevenjlovelace]

Thanks for reading my comment! Glad I could add another layer of intrigue to an already plot-packed episode.

[@damenwhelan3236]

I dunno if he used the gel. He did have the optilithic data rod already. He jokingly told Bashir one was behind a panel in his shop.

[@JanetStarChild]

I think Steve might be a little intoxicated. I've never witnessed so much singing in a single Steve video. It's alright; between Xmas and New Year's, the wine will flow.

[@mindyp51d]

A little too much egg nog, Steve? LOL!

[@nucleargandhi2709]

Io Saturnalia!

[@Mnogojazyk]

"Steve just wants to have fun."

[@laker4life36]

“IT’S A FAAAAAAAKE” - one of the most iconic DS9 quotes ever!!

[@schnaffoo8557]

I’m happy you mentioned Edith Keeler. When I watch “Man In The High Castle”, I like to think the show is about the “Keeler”universe where Kirk was able to save her. I actually like that show a little more with my imaginary Star Trek connection. Sticklers for cannon be damned, because Discovery made alternative timelines and realities cannon when the existence of the “Kelvin” universe was recently confirmed, so why not?

[@TheTimeRotor]

“You know about the chain of command? It’s the chain I’m gonna ruttin’ beat you with...!” -Jayne Cobb, Hero of Canton

[@samschulman3663]

“It’s the chain I’m gonna beat you with till you understand who’s in ruttin command here.”

[@philstokes3507]

"Eating shit is a good move for you" is the best reply, ever! 😂

[@teemujokelainen]

About Romulan ale. I find it funny that most well known running gag of Star Trek is about officers using illegal substance fairly openly and joking about it.

[@Bastion90]

Another example of a main character being punished for disregarding orders was in Voyager's '30 Days', where Tom Paris is put in the brig for a month and demoted to an Ensign.

[@tonyajot]

Exactly this!

[@DaveGSound]

The Garak organic explos. thing makes sense! It's exactly what he would do all himself, and then convolute the explanation. Never thought of it! Well done.

[@scorinth]

It's great how discussing a good work with other fans can make everybody appreciate it more.

[@JamesSerapio]

In response to the title, Garak is just a simple tailor. I don't understand why anyone would accuse him of such things.

[@Tony-dh7mz]

I miss being called a Bastard, my mother always use to call me that (even tho my parents were married before i was born) Sigh.....

[@sarahmadery3601]

same, my mom always refers to kids in parking lots as "little bastards"

[@johnfoss500]

Did you forget to flash an image of Tuvix into the video when bringing up Captains getting away with murder?

[@bolasdefraile]

Justice for Tuvix!

[@MrAtncc1701]

Thank you, Steve! I LOVE anything to do with "In the Pale Moonlight!"

[@dangerkeith3000]

Worf and Jadzia shouldn't have been allowed to go on that dangerous mission together in the first place, since being in charge of a loved one in that situation could (and did) lead to a serious conflict of interest and Starfleet should have known better.

[@dukeofurl01]

The talk of how senior officers never go on away missions didn't mention how several times in TNG, Riker doesn't allow Picard to lead the away mission, and then also in The Best of Both Worlds pII, Troi mentions the same thing, to the now Captain Riker, how he's in command now and it's inappropriate of him to go (get Picard back), so he sends Shelby instead.

[@darkseid1975]

Steve, My theory with Word being told he'll never have a command is that it shows a patten of behavior. In "Sons of Mogh", he put his personal/family honor and values ahead of Federation values by being willing to kill Kurn. In "Reunion" he does the same by interfering in Klingon politics with killing Duras. I think sacrificing the mission for Jadzia was just the proverbial final straw. It shows that he is regularly willing to sacrifice Federation values for his own.

[@mxplixic]

He won't get command of his own ship, but he has a good shot of becoming a Starfleet Admiral. :)

[@erikklein7618]

Thank you for pointing out the explosive that Garak used

[@JohnnyPappas]

I just recently did a rewatch of the Dirty Harry movies. Marc Alaimo is a mob bodyguard in the last one.

[@rhkinney11]

It makes sense that the bridge crew would constantly be on away missions, if you think about not as a military but as 18th century explorers. So many Captains , Cook comes to mind, miss read the danger of an away mission and ended up dead.

[@acerumble]

Never has Low Effort Content felt so effortlessly contented than Steve's NATA Comment Response videos

[@BrowncoatFairy]

if i remember right, Data was going to resign his commission - he wasn't about to hand Lal over.

[@bucktoothmagoo1783]

incorrect. Data tried to reason with the admiral but when the admiral ordered data to hand Lal over, he rose to his feet without any further verbal objection and only stopped when Picard told him to stand his ground :)

[@Bastion90]

That was in 'Measure of a Man' over handing himself over.

[@benlime1235]

In the Pale Moonlight is my favourite Star Trek episode and it had never occurred to me that Garak used the biomimetic gel to blow up Vreenak's ship either. Wow, mind blown.

[@WitWP359]

Spider-Man was a bad example seeing that Spidey managed to save both Mary Jane and the 'bus' full of kids

[@kujasan]

when i stumbled over 300 i enjoyed it tremendously - as a satire. And i was shocked when i realized it is not known or viewed or meant as that.

[@arbjbornk]

The artificial singularity in Romulan ships is what generates the power, just as the matter/anti-matter reaction does for Federation & Klingon ships. They would still need a medium of focusing/regulating the power into warp plasma to energize the warp coils. That's what dilithium is needed for. That's why the Romulans had dilithium mines on Remus.

[@vesuvanprincess]

I used to love 300. I watched it again recently and was shocked. Have I changed so much from when I was a teenager as to now loathe things like this I used to adore? Apparently.

[@ThePorpoisepower]

Riker constantly argues with Picard about how the captain should never go on away missions.... while Picards was like... F you... you just love away missions (probably because that way you can meet new aliens to know carnally). I know, canonically Riker only wants to captain the Enterprise, and that's why he repeatedly declines his own ship... but really it's about going on away missions and getting lucky.

[@loner844]

as someone who enjoys the Garak/Bashir relationship, the indirect conversation that In The Pale Moonlight does between Garak and Bashir is quite fascinating. Garak is doing his usual dodgy spy schtick, and Bashir is being the responsible doctor. In other words, they're in complete opposition to each other. I just find it fascinating for a pair who are often shown as tied together, but also a pair who are drawn together by their opposition specifically. They have lunchtime debates, they argue. Their whole relationship is basically the union of opposing viewpoints. In fact, in Cardassian culture, that's what people are attracted to in each other -- opposition. so, although these two are on opposite sides in this episode, and have no direct interaction, I find this dynamic wonderful to watch. Even when they're not together, they're still arguing with each other. on another point in this episode, the example with the Romulan ale specifically is a pretty good analogy for catching details in the show. The ale is its own example about how you can not notice something, but then once you do notice it, you can't not see it. Just as you can tell an ale is fake by the details, you can't unmake connections within a story once you see it.

[@demyelinated_ditz]

Weird that no one remembers how BOBW started with Hanson and Shelby talking about how they're still years away from having some new tech to fight the Borg. Geordi and Shelby's idea of modulating the shield and phaser frequencies only held the Borg off for about 20 seconds, so without Picard it might have taken the Borg what, 5 more minutes to destroy the fleet? Picard was a scapegoat

[@siriusmined3709]

re: Away teams They COULD have made the "away team" (always hated that name) led by the head of security, the XO (Riker in this case), or even had a dedicated team, with specialists in different areas. The senior staff would only come down after initial contact cleared the LZ as safe. It could increase realism (at the expense of adding cast) and not been too over the top.

[@user-zh4vo1kw1z]

In the pilot of TNG the 'senior officer do not go on away missions' is explicitly adressed: Riker states that the captain no longer goes on away missions but that it falls to the first officer. This leads to the conversation where Picard states that he chose Will precisely because he is not afraid to stand up to the captain. Again that 'trust authority but not blindly'. To me this indicated two things: 1: Kirk was not supposed to be down there every time but just couldn't help himself. Perhaps thst anti-authoritarian streak? 2: Starfleet believes in frontline leadership. This was applied here, but mostly abbandoned in the trenches of WW1. Agree or disagree, there may be a reasoning there: the bridge officers are the elite of the ship, so offcourse they would deploy them where they are most valuable. This also shows a leadership through example mentality: the crew can trust they are never asked to do something or go somewhere that the senior officers won't. This breeds loyalty. It was abandoned roundabout WW1 cuz the massive troop numbers involved required the officers in a more managerial position. But with explorative missions, this burocracy is less conducive: these ships need to be units that are somewhat autonomous (I even remember remarks that the constitution class was meant to be that even moreso) meaning the captain needs to be the decision making type (which Kirk certainly was!), Something he is best able to do when lines of communication are short. Hence the advantage of having him with boots on land.

[@nealjroberts4050]

Good justification. Well done.

[@texasyojimbo]

I've never actually seen "In the Pale Moonlight" and while I'm not going to complain about spoilers (I mean, it's been, what 25 years?) I have a lot to think about. Unless everything you guys are saying about this episode is FAAAAAAKE.

[@djargus]

As far as I am aware, the dialog of the episode from Sisko and him makes it obvious that Garak blew up Vreenak's shuttle to make it look like the Dominion were attempting to hide evidence that they were planning to invade the Romulan Empire (evidence that Sisko manufactured).

[@AleksthePster]

"my wonderful viewers who I would never address in an unruly aggressive tone", except when Steve starts talking about conservatives.

[@kbrock9146]

The biggest joke on this channel, aside from the natural humor, the put downs, the flat out insults, the sarcasm, is that Steve actually forgets any of this. Steve doesn't forget, he just wants to make those soft ball, low effort videos from time to time, and as someone that hasn't moved much since quarantine, I can't blame him one bit. 😂 Love your stuff. Look forward to your videos! Here's to a 2021...... I hope that it's, a uh, year.

[@danielgertler5976]

You know what though? keeping Kirk as demoted and making him first officer and Spock the captain could have been an interesting way to really set the Kelvin timeline apart, kind of like how the ultimate universe in Marvel tried to make sure they weren't just giving you the same Iron Man and X-men etc.

[@KatRobinsonArkansas]

Star Trek V is a Captain Kirk fever dream he experienced in the Nexus.

[@jessewilley531]

300 is emblematic of everything Frank Miller has done since 1992.

[@SavageGreywolf]

are you implying The Dark Knight Returns _isn't_ edgy fascist propaganda that has led to 100% of the bad takes on Batman in DC comics history? Imo Frank Miller has never been good.

[@travwrestle]

WOW the Boimemedic gel piece just SHOCKED ME. I'm with you Steve. I had never noticed that and it just adds another layer into the amazing writing of this episode.

[@simonmacomber7466]

On "Does Star Trek Believe in the Chain of Command" I have to counter with the phrase, "The Ends Justifies the Means." To be clear, Star Trek _doesn't_ believe that the ends justify the means, but they _do_ believe that if the ends turn out really good then you can use that as a defense for your actions when you are questioned about them later. Just because we don't see someone getting reprimanded for disobeying orders by a senior officer doesn't mean that the reprimand doesn't happen. But we have seen people argue about the outcome being better only because they disobeyed a direct order.

[@thelegasy]

In terms of away teams, this is why we have red shirts - to get the casualties while still being able to enjoy an episode filled with main characters. I think Uhura and Scotty are 2 of the few red shirts who never bit it.

[@theonlymatthew.l]

Y would Garak go to all the trouble to use biomimetic gel? When as a member of the Obsidian Order I am sure he knows dozens of ways to fashion an explosive device using much more mundane non traceable means..

[@grahamshaw9947]

With regards to away missions, I do agree it is a tool used to build drama and tell a story. With that being said, I think it makes all kinds of sense from an in-universe perspective as well. The core value of Starfleet has always been exploration- that pioneering spirit that convinces people to seal themselves in a tin can for 5 years at a time and not only travel into the unknown; but also beyond any potential help should trouble arise to the point where if you go missing Starfleet wouldn't even know exactly where to start looking. Taken objectively, its pure insanity- and yet its something that we all still yearn for. The Starfleet officers core is basically the embodiment of all of that- these are individuals who are so exceptional at what they do, and so energized by the spirit of exploration that they're given the responsibility to lead others into the unknown with them! You could make a thousand and one rules explicitly stating that no one in that position should be the first to explore a new world- but in the middle of a 5 year mission, beyond the borders of known space, having spent months on end cooped up in a tiny little spaceship eating the same food and doing the same things over and over and over and over again... who is going to stop them? The whole point of Starfleet, and what makes them so great, is that everyone on those ships not only accepts the risks, but embraces the opportunity to take them. They relish in the idea of being some of the first people to see each and every wonder of the universe up close. The potential of losing key ship personnel is a serious danger, but it is also unavoidable with that sort of driving philosophy. We've seen other officers assume the mantle of command in certain circumstances- Sulu, Checkov, Scotty, Spock, Riker, Data, Worf, Dr. Crusher, and Deanna Troi all took command at various points in their careers. As for a department head being replaced without noticeable loss in effectiveness, the only example that comes to mind was Dr McCoy taking command of the Enterprises medical department following their first encounter with Nero over Vulcan in Star Trek 2009. While an officer dying on an away mission is a serious risk and a potential neglect of his responsibility to their department, it is also the very best method to lead through example. It could be argued that Starfleet personnel are trained to a high enough standard to be able to compensate for the loss of a department head. Losing or ignoring that spirit of exploration on the other hand would be the cultural death of Starfleet as we know it. Which brings up the Commodores and Admirals. These people may have once held true to the Starfleet spirit of discovery and exploration, but have since set it aside to sit at a desk and delegate. No wonder there is so much divide between these officers and the rest! We see James Kirk stuffed into the position of admiral for the Motion Picture, and the Wrath of Khan. In both of those situations he struggles with it- losing the opportunity to actually be out there "making a difference" as he would put it. He basically uses his rank to lawfully commandeer the Enterprise on both of those occasions. As an Admiral, his first play is to make himself a Captain again. That should tell you something. :)

[@paulhitchcock2543]

Re:senior officers accompanying away teams, that was partially addressed in TNG with Picard , at least initially, rarely if ever being on an away team.

[@Kairamek]

And every time he does going on away mission that doesn't necessitate the captain someone gives him about it. Usually riker, since that is his job. But occasionally it's Worf citing security concerns.

[@salc8016]

I like it in the visitor that the older Brashear told Dax that how they ever got around with two dimensional control pads and then in Picard all they have 3d control systems

[@yensid4294]

Law & Order used that "other cops are incompetent, corrupt or lazy" trope to death IIRC. Wishing everyone a better year in 2021 🥂🎊

[@mandelbrot5]

I never thought about that, I just assumed that Garak had the rod and just wanted something to replace it in value. Very great idea, that my now go in my head cannon.

[@rodrigonatali3537]

Man, never surrender, never apologize. This duscussuion (for me) is so much fun,

[@jimwilson278]

That last one, Geek of Truth, was perfect. Sick burn, Steve. You da man.

[@kahunab7400]

Steve doing star trek is definitely a wholesome thing. love it.

[@poppyshock]

The bridge crew on away teams things has always bothered me, as well. However, as Steve addressed this in the video, it suddenly occurred to me that this is very realistic if you think of the Enterprise as an ocean going vessel. It was *always" the Captain and his bridge crew (of noble birth) that greeted the native chieftains in diplomatic envoys. Captain James Cook and Ferdinand Magellan (and others, I'm sure) were killed on voyages of discovery, while away from their ships. Granted, they were acting far more aggressively toward the natives than any major Star Trek captain.

[@shaneg9081]

19:30 Lower Decks took your idea to heart, Steve. They really want you to like them.

[@SteveShives]

Then they should make their show funnier.

[@JamesThomas-kx5sj]

@@SteveShives I liked it. I went into it with a really negative attitude because I thought the idea of an animated comedy series was too childish for Trek but found it to be a very enjoyable "turn your brain off" show like Family Guy

[@lawndragon6485]

In the modern military senior staff wouldn’t go on an away mission but back in the age of sail having the first officer or some other officer lead the away mission would be totally normal. And we get told repeatedly that this is what Starfleet intends but Kirk breaks the rules by leading them himself.

[@tigerbread78]

The Federation knew full well that the Klingon High council had no problem with the Duras killing, hence no diplomatic incident to worry about, the ritual killing also had no outside repercussion, only Worf's career (at the discretion of Sisko) But Worf saving his wife meant the mission failure, and possibly millions more died as a result of his actions

[@itsdantaylor]

17:26 I always thought that would have been a more interesting way to approach star trek. Kind of like what Lower Decks is doing. Every show is focused on a "captain" or in DS9 a "commander" you can still have those characters but it would be interesting to have the focus be more central on those 'lower on the totem pole' and still have the captain there just not be as prominent in the action going on.

[@patrickwhite3912]

Plus in the Star Trek Picard companion books, Worf is promoted to Captain of the Enterprise

[@stephenpearson7423]

Into Darkness isn’t a bad film, the quality of the action and strength of performances in the first half of the film was captivating with Kirk’s dressing down by Pike being a real stand out moment in Trek. I put ‘Into Darkness’ into the problematic camp as the potential for a great Klingon story was set up at the start but I believe either Abrams or some Paramount executive chose to throw Khan in last minute for cheap fan service. That’s where the film starts to unravel narratively, the Khan plot clumsily hijacks what was up until his reveal a really interesting story about a rouge Starfleet officer defecting and giving the Dreadnaught secrets to the Klingons in a misguided attempt to create a ‘Mutually assured Destruction’ pact with Klingons. It could have been a good nod to the underrated TOS episode ‘The Enterprise Incident’ but it chose to poorly adapt ‘ Wrath of Khan’ beats to serve some corporate marketing fan service role using one of Treks most Iconic movies to add validity to the Kelvin timeline Trek. The movie is a good action flick nestled between the two better Kelvin timeline trilogy films. 👍🖖

[@adampm9998]

sometimes i like these comment response videos better than the videos the comments are referring to. it's like having a casual conversation

[@vrenak]

Though using the biomimetic gel is a possibility for Garak to use to blow up the ship, the gel itself isn't an explosive, and will definitely need some work to be fashioned into an explosive, this means Garak would need other materials, and precious time to do this. However to be sure that the federation can't be blamed he would definitely try to make it look like it was an "accident", because that's what the Tal Shiar would do, and thus what they would expect. If the Tal Shiar found traces of biomimetic gel the federation could be a suspect as one of the few powers to possess that.

[@IanZainea1990]

30:42 Stargate SG-1 also does this, and I find it so annoying. Not having a strong supporting cast seems like such a bad idea! But it was the style at the time. In later seasons 9-10 especially (and 8 a bit), they start to build out the supporting cast and it's such a relief.

[@pattimcb31]

I never thought about him using the gel to blow up the ship either😳 points the finger at Sisko if anything went wrong. Garak is such a rich character.

[@Restil]

Depending on how deep you want to dig into this one.... the purpose of using the gel to blow up the ship (as opposed to any other explosive which presumably Garak would have easily been able to obtain), was the gel could be used not only as an explosive, but also to leave an organic signature that implies dominion involvement. The Romulans presumably have many enemies, and even the apparently legitimate datarod alone wouldn't necessarily force them to assume the most likely suspect is the one they actually have a treaty with. Propaganda is a key component of Romulan military strategy, and they have a long history of provoking various powers into war with each other. This is not a trick they would easily fall for. Truth is, they probably would prefer to fight the Dominion anyway. Vreenak's death wasn't so much a rallying cry for war as it eliminated one crucial council vote that was strongly in favor of nonaggression, possibly all that was needed to tip the scales. Even Vreenak wasn't necessarily entirely on board with it. He DID agree to meet with Sisko, in secret, with limited personnel. He's not an idiot.. He knew what the purpose of that meeting was. I think he was hoping that Sisko would provide something substantive that would actually be useful in changing his opinion. He was probably hoping for actual evidence. Instead he got presented with an obvious fake..... that he took with him, but did not immediately disclose. Despite his intention to report the incident, he left the station with the same secrecy in which he arrived. He could have radioed a log of the event at any point after leaving... but didn't. I suspect he never intended to. He'd hold onto it, possibly for future political blackmail purposes.

[@michaelwoish5962]

I forget which movie but Kirk going on away missions was called out in the Kelvin timeline. Spock said something like, “I would quote regulations on Captains not going on away missions, but you would disregard them anyways.”

[@thebowserful]

The last response is the best! Keep up the good work Steve

[@MatthewCobalt]

16:51 That nitpick can also apply to most other shows that shows people of high rank or importance going on first contact mission. Stargate basically used that card to the point of it being stuck on their hands. Lt. Commander Samantha Carter was the leading physicist that helped in the reinstating of the Stargate Program, and Daniel Jackson (aka Death Flag incarnate) who was the formost expert in Ancient languages and ancient mythology which even brough the Stargate Program off the ground in the first place.

[@gbisaga]

One comment about senior officers going on away missions. While I agree it's unrealistic, I think the main reason is that Gene based Kirk on Horatio Hornblower. IIRC, Hornblower would always lead the "away missions" himself. (The Hornblower connection also really helps me understand Kirk and Archer's character - bravado but also lots of internal self-doubt, just like Hornblower.)

[@PaulJWells-ud2eq]

Mind...blown! Thank you for the best Cool Ass Bar Talk one can have in a world without cool bars. Or bars at all.

[@r77madder]

Embarrassed to say I missed the biomemetic clue too. Good Find!

[@PhilipWilson-ww2xc]

I think in Picard they said Worf was made the captain of the Enterprise. Also I think Worf and Kirk are a little different in that Worf saving the Cardasian is speculative. No one knows for sure how many lives would be saved. Kirk knew the future would be really messed up if his squeeze lived. (I loved the Kelvin movies but Kirk going from cadet to captain - of the flagship - jumping over every officer in the fleet - is ridiculous. They could have fixed with a SpongeBob time skip -"a few years later."

[@TenchiJeff]

Thank you so much for this. A lot of us are hurting right now for a lot of different reasons, but it's nice to have something g positive like your wonderful videos. I know it's hard for you too, due to things, so even though I'm not a patron, I do value what you do and all the effort and dedication. Thank you for making my day a little better.

[@Maniac536]

Good news. Outsmarting supercomputers becomes required curriculum in post-TOS era Starfleet. According to the starfleet academy pc game there was a simulation that had a possible solution with outsmarting a supercomputer. Pretty sure since it was a Klingon simulation (a stolen copied Klingon version of the federation’s command unit) it was hosted by Kirk.

[@justaloe]

Star Trek pissed on Worf's sacrifice by killing off Jadzia just a few episodes later which in subsequent viewings does mess up your appreciation of his sacrifice. I guess they didn't want to recast the roll but still it hurt.

[@heedmywarning2792]

29:07 another time when a 'major' protagonist got punished in Star Trek was when Ensign/Lt Paris of Voyager went against the captain's orders and helped an alien from a water planet destroy a reactor/refinery. Voyager season 5 episode 9.

[@locutus9956]

Actual answer to the Romualn question if anyone wants: Dilliithium regulates power in federation ships generated by matter antimatter, its never really clarified in the show exactly how it does that or what its ACTUALLY doing to facilitate warp drive, so its entitely feasible the romulans still need them to allow them to use the power generated by their singulairty cores to form warp fields. Or as Steve says, since its all made up theres pretty much any number of equally plausible explanations for why Romulans still need Dilithium.

[@chrisgriffith1573]

You made a great observation about Picard going against orders more in the Movies than the TV show... why is that? The movies had bigger villains, bigger stakes, and thus the heroic exploits of Picard seem amplified by the addition "going against the man" as it were... but really? It does seem more like overkill and furling of the "fluff"...

[@clarissathompson]

Ok, in regards to senior officers going on the away missions...I often consider that Starfleet is supposed to primarily be concerned with exploration and diplomatic missions, not military. If you think of expeditions to Antarctica, ocean research and other missions of exploration, the leaders of the team are always in the thick of it. While Starfleet's organization is structured as para military, that isn't supposed to be their primary purpose so it would make sense that their away missions would include senior officers.

[@sheccabaw]

Alternative title- Not Actually Trek, Actually: The Musical Episode

[@ferlessleedr]

In addition to the realism vs drama debate with regard to bridge crew/senior officers going on away missions, it's also worth pointing out that the Federation is NOT a military organization, or at least that's how they think of themselves. They do peacekeeping missions, yes, but the Enterprise's primary mission is exploration and diplomacy as stated by Captains Kirk and Picard in the opening credits voice-overs. And of course, you're going to comment below with a Trek Actually video you've already done about how the Federation is absolutely a military organization that I haven't seen before because I just discovered your channel like...a week ago.