Did Joseph Smith Really Use A Seer Stone?

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How many sets of plates were there?
Was the large repository of records at Cumorah in New York?
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Did the Book of Moses come from Nephite records in the repository?
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[@kimberlyolsen9416]

I trust what Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery said. Either they are truthful in the translation story or they lied about everything else. I have studied Joseph Smith's life for over 30 years and I have an unshakable testimony that he was and IS a true Prophet. I have Brother Neville's books on this subject. Can't wait to get the next one! Thanks Greg!

[@angielocks]

Amen 🙏

[@The_K-Dude]

Yep. Joseph and Oliver had no reason to lie so ofc they told the truth

[@jerry_phillips]

Do you allow room for the possibility that they could have simply been mistaken and were speaking as to their understanding at the time? I think sometimes we think God was involved in everything that came out of JS’s mouth and I just don’t think that’s accurate.

[@kimberlyolsen9416]

@Jerry Phillips Joseph Smith was not a liar, of course not everything he said was from God but when he was speaking of spiritual things or about the process of translation or anything of that sort he was speaking as the Lord's Prophet of the Restoration. I have faith in that and trust his words.

[@UtahKent]

And that's the dichotomy the Heartlanders and the thummer-only proponents always play, "Take it our way or you really don't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet."

[@mrmod123]

I love Neville!! Thanks for having him on. I agree with what he has to say. It’s frustrating all the infighting that goes on. Even more frustrating that the Church seems to use the “intellectual progressives” POV rather than including the ones of the likes of Neville and the Stoddards which is the traditional narrative in my opinion.

[@myeyepie]

The church defended the correct and traditional history until the members rejected it and demanded a more secular history in the majority. Then they switched to that. The elevation of anti Mormons word above the prophets own testimony.

[@stevebonner3402]

​@@myeyepie0

[@janbowcut7980]

Once again you hooked my interest. I grew up in Provo with Joseph Smith authorities such as Madsen, Anderson, and Andrus in my ward. Later I went to BYU where at the time academia was teaching the B of M was translated by the power of God and the Urim and Thummin. Where did we get so off the track? Thanks to both of you for this enlightening explanation of truth. I look forward to more❣️

[@bobwilkinson1217]

Thank you, Jonathan! You are a credit to truth and common sense. Common sense being not too common these days.

[@levi5459]

Any blessing that we don’t appreciate and take for granted we run the risk of losing. Despite the struggles and problems we each face individually, those of us raised in this country have been so prosperous and have been afforded so much ease that we thought good sense was common and trivial really. Now having so much ease and prosperity ironically enough has brought about its own kind of impoverishment. We starve for the wisdom and sense we thought was common

[@JonathanWillistheAmazing]

I’m sold on the demonstration hyposthesis… seems so logical and rational to everything else I’ve heard

[@markstimson983]

This was a very thought provoking discussion. I love it when evidences are presented where we can go and research for ourselves. I heard information that I have never heard before anywhere.

[@JosephMichaelLima]

Who cares about details we look for something in hope to find fault not to find truth but truth is what comes through! Joseph Smith is a Prophet and burdened with the restoration of The Gospel he is a great man and a blessing to all of us!

[@caguas97]

I love that picture of the Urim and Thumim set in spectacles. The first time I saw that picture, I was struck at how the two triangles, set differently in the spectacles, would come together through both eyes to appear as a Star of David.

[@l7846]

Agreed. The Hebrew/Jewish understanding of "light" h"dark" as pertaining g to the OT sweeten & enrich our understanding of the U & T!

[@UtahKent]

As above, so below?

[@TheSandyStone]

Where did this picture come from? Who made it and what are the sources used to create it?

[@athenabowler3788]

Fascinating and answers so many questions. As a youth I was taught differently than what the scholars are saying now. It’s confusing, but I tend to lean towards how I was taught years ago. Bro.Neville seems to agree with that too.

[@kevingarner1558]

Thank you Greg for having Jonathon on again and letting him give this information. I agree with your confusion as to why this information has basically been hidden from the general church membership. If it was taught and explained it would remove many of the stumbling blocks that are causing many to have crises of faith. Thank you Jonathon for your work and being willing to take the arrows of those who do not want these things told. Joseph was a choice Prophet and Seer, not a deceiving "rough stone rolling".

[@patrickluchycky1172]

Be vigilant and discerning as there is now more than ever the deceived and deceivers in the church.

[@bryonsmith8494]

Great couple of episodes. I could listen to hours of this

[@lynaryoung7903]

me too. Very important topics with individuals that have done the research and know their stuff.

[@andrewdurfee3896]

With the record was found a curious instrument which the ancients called “Urim and Thummim” which consisted of two transparent stones set in the rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate. Through the medium of the Urim and Thummim I translated the record by the gift, and power of God. Joseph Smith “church history “ Tmes and seasons 3, (March 1, 1842)

[@carlosjosejimenezbermudez9255]

Assuming that is the whole quote, it's disingenuous to assume such a short phrase is conclusive. The most likely answer is that he used both the spectacle zohar "Urim and Thumim" and the seer stone. Either way, it does not diminish the remarkable nature of the Book of Mormon.

[@dr33776]

​@jerrodwertman6979 D&C 10 and 17 currently mention the Urim and Thummim but the earliest versions of D&C 10 does not. The reference to the Urim and Thummim was added sometime between 1832 and 1835 (when the first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants was published.) The "spectacles" (if we go with the witnesses testimonies) were taken away when joseph lost the 116 pages and from that point on he used the stone in the hat. Oliver comes much later yet he testifies that joseph used the spectacles. That's a proven lie, he never saw the spectacles because joseph didn't have them. It's not different than retrofitting the priesthood restoration to solidify his position on the church as second elder. Oliver was willing to lie for joseph, bet you didn't know they were cousins either.

[@joechristiansen6016]

@@dr33776Whoa!..calling Oliver Cowdery a liar, huh?…now that’s sad. You say “that’s a proven lie” oh really, by whom? You? Present day scholars? You seem so quick to judge Oliver . If he really was a liar, don’t you think that would’ve been exposed by the Lord in any one of the revelations pertaining to Oliver Cowdery in the doctrine and covenants? What did the three witnesses testify of, the plates as well as the urim & thummim , nowhere in their testimony does it mention seer stones or a hat. Oliver mentioned spectacles because Joseph used the Urim & thummim throughout the translation. The Lord testifies of this, Joseph Smith testifies this as does Oliver Cowdery. Oh, and by the way, Oliver was Joseph‘s second cousin not first cousin.

[@CrackedCandy]

Never in 40 years as a member have I ever heard that he swapped out the book of Lehi for the book of Mormon and it was delivered by one of the three Nephites. Am I alone here?

[@psychlops924]

No this is the first I’ve heard of it. I’ve been a baptized member for 22 years

[@daviddrysdale8882]

Remember, Joseph stated on one occasion that it was not intended or meant to provide all the details as to the coming forth of The Book of Mormon! And right he was!

[@brentgeddes]

Great stuff! Why aren't we learning this in Sunday School? I wish Brother Neville would have talked about "Brother Nephi" (one of the Three Nephites) showing the Plates of Nephi to Mary Whitmer, when he was bringing them from the repository in the Hill Cumorah, before he gave them to the Prophet. She saw them before the Eight Witnesses. The only woman to do so. Peep stone, ridiculous. These academics are looking for the next shiny object to make a name for themselves. Many people have lost their testimonies because of these false "theories."

[@CrackedCandy]

@@jerrodwertman6979 please list your sources as I would like to read this too. I have never heard of brother Nephi. I do recall the Mary Whitmer story but don't recall the specifics. Tom Pettit on his D&C series "beyond come follow me" talked about it. That's not the name of his channel.

[@brentgeddes]

Just Google "Mary Whitmer sees the gold plates." You will be shocked at how much information is there. The accounts differ depending on the person relating this story. Some say of the messenger, old man, some say, stranger, others, Moroni. It was the same person that Joseph, Oliver and David Whitmer saw on their way from Harmony to Fayette. This man was carrying the gold plates that Joseph had given him earlier. He was going to the repository in the hill Cumorah to leave the gold plates he had with him and bring the plates of Nephi to Fayette so they could be translated...if the prophet translated with a peep stone, why all this running around!?

[@psychlops924]

@Z A because they align more with what Joseph and Oliver said happened, and less with what the current day conjecture is. Sticking to what the Brethren have taught instead of intellectual pet theories 🤷‍♂️

[@brentgeddes]

Did you watch the video!? I can't say anything more compelling than what brother Neville said. He that has ears, let him hear...

[@bradhardisty1652]

I'm glad he went thtough the timeline and it really exposes Aringtonites.

[@lynaryoung7903]

This is so awesome! I'm excited that your bringing Neville on your program. I would love to see Rod Meldrum on her also. Rod is not as polarizing as people think. I'm pretty sure he would come on if your invited him. Thanks for your giving a voice to the heartland logic. It really does put into action your said goal to discuss conflicting views with out contention. Keep it up!!

[@rst6996]

Great conversation, Greg. I thoroughly enjoyed this as I did the first part with Neville

[@timwrightfamily740]

I love the idea that the Interpreters gave Joseph a literal translation but then by the spirit of revelation he could put those words and ideas into 19th century post New Testament Christian vocabulary and context so we could understand it. A litteral translation would get ...well "lost in translation!

[@TravPlay]

Great video! It was nice to hear an argument for the Urim and Thumim that differs slightly from the Stoddard's.

[@matthewglosenger3180]

I really loved the conversation on this topic. Lots of things I hadn't known. Not surprising that there is contention within the ranks of the church regarding the legitimacy of it's own history. Even more disheartening is the idea that someone would hang their testimony upon the truthfulness of "facts" which change depending on the information and the perspective of the one presenting them. We have gone VERY far away from the commandment to "teach Nothing but repentance to this people" and to "Experiment upon the word". Studying the word is even the wrong thing. We are supposed to be FEASTING on the word. Joseph Smith once said that, if we could see into heaven for 5 minutes, we would have no more questions. All the studying and academics in the world will never equate to feasting on the word or experimenting on it. These questions of historicity, once one can truly see themselves in the scriptures, become irrelevant and a broad distraction to the cause of Heaven. All will be well.

[@magitekarms60]

Good stuff! Any plans to have Hannah Stoddard appear to add her witness to the Urim and Thummim account and why the seer stone account is bogus? She has some incredible info on how this has seeped into the church zeitgeist as revisionist church history.

[@lynaryoung7903]

I agree here. I think Hannah and the Joseph Smith Foundation has a lot to offer on these topics. If anyone can help direct the discussion and keep it on track it's Greg Madison. Bring 'em all!

[@jennydc8]

ents Thankyou for this podcast subject. I have been searching for this validation, and have been frustrated with the gospel topic/essay and version of history in Saints. I have always believed simply, in the use of the Urim and Thummin translating the actual plates, and never liked the other ideas about the seer stone etc. I choose to continue to accept Joseph's word, and the testimonies of the Book of Mormon prophets about all their labor performed in writing and preserving for our benefit in the last days.

[@gemelindacjp7976]

Good interview, Greg!

[@CwicShow]

Thank you!

[@rogerpreble440]

This is an amazing guest that you had on your show… It only saddens me that a few thousand people have seen this… This guy makes so much sense with both videos… I wish there was a way to get this out to more members of a church… I have shared it with several people I guess that's great job. Looking forward to hearing from you again.

[@rconger24]

Have been hearing Bro.Neville since 2016 but that was at in-person semi-annual conferences by Rod Meldrum. Glad to see word getting out more than it was back then.

[@dannyd7426]

Loved this!

[@PapaKryptoss]

Yes keep doing these

[@timwrightfamily740]

This is exactly what I needed to hear.

[@spencerkimball9725]

I watched the beginning of this and appreciate the point that Joseph and Oliver at no time corroborated the tale that there was a seer stone used in the translation. It's tragic what liberties have been taken with the origin story of the Book ofMormon. Any revised history that is not clearly traceable to Joseph Smith should raise a red flag and be treated with mistrust.

[@Art65483]

Good stuff. Thank you.

[@CwicShow]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@badesign9519]

Love it!

[@Greg-McIver]

Jonathan's logical legal training is very good. The weight of and preponderance of the evidence indicates Jonathan is correct.

[@lynaryoung7903]

totally agree

[@rconger24]

Training AND Experience.

[@madvinmryk]

Great presentation. F=facts A=assumptions I=inferences T=theory H=hypothesis Hypothesis always comes before one forms a theory...so that acronym almost works but not quite... Anyway, great presentation.

[@jordan-xe2yb]

Thank you Brother Neville!

[@shoup_group]

Are people really, REALLY leaving the church over the method of BoM translation (transliteration). I don’t get all the hoopla. Joseph could have translated in a chicken suit and it wouldn’t bother me at all. Reminds me of the couple who traveled to Kirtland to meet the prophet and went away offended when he started playing with kids on the floor. His conduct was unbecoming a prophet of God in their estimation. Interpreters or seer stone, it doesn’t diminish his prophetic calling and being the Lord’s instrument. By their fruits ye shall know them. The book is true - no doubt. The minor particulars have little relevancy to me. We would do well to not get bogged down in matters of little worth in the eternal perspective imo.

[@rodneyjamesmcguire]

I haven't met anyone who's left over the methodology (and I talk to hundreds of exmo's all the time...) What I have seen a lot is those who have in part left because the church pretty much hid the stone-in-a-hat narrative from the members throughout the years, while knowing that the text we now have was entirely produced, according to the contemporary witnesses, by the stone-in-a-hat. Secondarily to that is the fact that the stone was used to defraud others prior to the purported "translation".

[@patrickluchycky1172]

Well said Keith.

[@Tahimate]

33:20 is very entertaining, especially on a Friday evening. It's going to be a great weekend.

[@andrewdurfee3896]

Seer stone v. Uris & Thummim talks about this,and gives multiple sources and compares them.

[@shireecox122]

I was always taught the B o M was translated with he Urim and Thumim, and that’s what I taught on my mission. Where did this other stuff come from?

[@jordan-xe2yb]

“Smart” people. Academia.

[@confusedwhynot]

I think if you start questioning Joseph's translation; you question his call by God to be the Prophet of the Last Dispensation. The whole restoration is called into question when you start saying Joseph was wrong. I see so many issues presenting themselves in the church that will cause many to fall.

[@angielocks]

Makes a lot of sense!

[@bradhardisty1652]

I'm with Urim and Thummim. I think the Stoddard's have a poimt that was not the accounts.early on. Also the accounts are members on non members who were not in involved with translation. David Whitmer didn't push that till way later when he had his own seer stone after he had left the church.

[@dr33776]

What about Emma's account: "In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us… ."

[@brucegillingham2793]

@@dr33776 The church admits the only evidence for translation includes the seer stone.

[@bryanbaird4646]

No seer stone was used. Period.

[@bobwilkinson1217]

The second-hand accounts that said a peep stone was used came after Joseph's death, years later with David Whitmer, William Law, and Emma's abusive husband. They said the seer stone was found on the deceased Joseph's body.

[@athenabowler3788]

So interesting

[@janecollette9504]

It's always good to look at the facts.

[@donnakearse2503]

Thank you so very much on the issue. I will follow the Prophet and be safe!

[@BrendonKing]

This is a serious question: if Joseph Smith used a seer stone in a hat almost exclusively, why should I care about the gold plates? What value do the plates hold in the story of the origin of the Book of Mormon?

[@tazdelp1248]

Exactly. Great question. This is why I am a proponent of the thought that he DID use the plates and also used the U&T. Otherwise, why have Moroni go through all that trouble of obtaining, keeping, and subsequently burying them under the stone for Joseph to retrieve 1400 years later?

[@kimberlyolsen9416]

My thoughts exactly!

[@stevereedatx]

It’s not just what was on the plates, the plates themselves coming forth with their message is a sign that Jesus explained to the Nephites that would mark the time that he would set his hand a second time to recover his people.

[@toddbender3463]

I really think you need to understand what God thinks about record keeping. Records are essential to God's kingdom on earth, maybe even in the worlds beyond. Regardless of if they were physically present during the entire translation, the physical plates were in Joseph's possession and it had the record engraved on it. The same record will be produced by the Lord in the last days and he'll show the entire world that he indeed did command Joseph to translate it.

[@tylermartin6532]

If this did happen. And that’s IF The plates could be relevant as a witness of authenticity to his story. The three witnesses testified they saw the plates, saw the engravings on the plates, heard the voice of God and saw an angel. Then the eight witnesses testified Joseph showed them the plates, saw the engravings and held them in their hands. So we have assurance from the witnesses there was an ancient record and it was preserved by God for all the world. Why it might not matter if the plates were used directly is because Joseph didn’t know reformed Egyptian and he didn’t learn this language so he could translate it with his new education. No, the translation occurred by “the gift and power of God” by means of the interpreters. The urim and thummim or seer stone. We might imagine Joseph writing down the story on the plates line by line flipping the plates over likes he’s transcribing it. Or maybe we’ve envisioned him putting the urim and thummim over the plates like a decoder and read aloud as Oliver wrote down what was dictated. But we don’t have the exact process as he didn’t go into great depth. But it appears as he explains the process, it was a gift and only God could have helped him translate the record. So if that was the case I don’t see him using the plates at all times to write the book in English from an unknown language. If God had to give the English version to him via the interpreters than perhaps that’s how it was a gift to him and why he could pick up where he left off every day and then Moroni and God testify the English version they wrote out is what is contained on the plates. We know he copied the characters and probably did all he could to understand them. As we learned from Oliver’s experience some effort was needed from the one translating. D&C 9:7-9 Now I haven’t listened to the video yet but your comment caught my eye. So if I learn something more after listening I’ll revise my response lol 😂

[@JonathanWillistheAmazing]

I feel like buying everyone of this guys books

[@JonathanWillistheAmazing]

@@jerrodwertman6979 sounds like I’m buying that book

[@Freedom0rBust]

Get this guy back on. One of your best episodes.

[@gary1636]

One of the examples of the Urim and Thumum being used as a medium to converse with God is found in 1 Samuel 28:6 KJV " And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets" You don't really hear much about the gift of tongues in the Book of Mormon until after the Nephites encounter the Mulekites. Why, because they had to learn their language. Also, Coriantumr lived with them for 9 moons, and he wrote a brief history of his people on a large stone, which was interpreted by Mosiah. I've read the Book of Mormon 19 times, but I can't remember where I made the connection to Coriantumr and the Urim and Thumum, but it may have been the Mulekites. I think it was Coriantamer that had the breastplate with the urim and thumum, and that by wearing it he would die not. The bells on the garment of Aaron was that he die not when he went into the Holly of Hollies, but it can be associated with the entire garment including the breastplate with the urim and thumum. From listening to your conversation I am convinced you already know the two triangular stones, the Urim and Thumum, are the star of David on the Israelites flag

[@douglasdoyle1027]

Great discussion. I've heard of the comment of the wagonloads of records in Cumorah, but not about them being transferred for the safety of the records to another location west of Cumorah. That makes sense.

[@avoice423]

So are they on Church property? If not, then that is not good.

[@douglasdoyle1027]

@@avoice423 Good question. That wasn't revealed.

[@lori8922]

Interesting topic! I read somewhere about how Joseph began the translation of the Book of Mormon record using the Urim and Thummim and how he said it had so much light that it caused him headaches. It appears he was able to transition through these tools-Urim and Thummim and seer stone, until he could just look and see without a tool, like he did when receiving the vision of the three degrees of glory (D&C 76). It’s possible. I also am wondering if the use of the Urim and Thummim is tied to his gift of being a seer and his priesthood, and perhaps using a stone is a gift we each can possess. There is a white stone all who inherit a Celestial glory will have. Lots to study and consider. I love these kinds of subjects. There is a lot we do not understand about how God is, well, God.

[@joybischoff9558]

I wish I could remember the name of the Seventy who spoke years ago in Conference. He said what I had long believed from my research. The Seventy said Joseph Smith had progressed to the point where he became a urim and thummim. "Be ye clean ye that bear the vessels of the Lord". Those vessels are our heart and mind becoming sanctified and unified to become the white stone. This makes Joseph's statement true. He translated by the urim and thummim. First those that came with the plates, then those inside him à he became more sanctified. Nibley and my research show that ancient people's of the near and far east knew of various urims and thummims and they were used in a hat or with a cloth over the head. The light shines clearly in darkness.

[@avoice423]

Once you have learned a language, you don't need to consult a language dictionary for every word, only those you don't know. Why is it so hard to consider that Joseph learned the meaning of characters and then dictated the book to the scribe? This does not negate the use of the urim and thumim at all or using the gift of God.

[@bobwilkinson1217]

Joseph only used the Urim & Thumin. Would you take a gift from God and then use a tool of man/sorcery. You would fall under condemnation. Joseph studied the language on the plates and likely got some tutoring from Moroni. He spent a lot of time with Moroni and perhaps other Nephites. He worked hard to learn the language. Look at the contemporary sources (maybe sorcerers) who claimed he used a "seer" stone. Those who claimed that a peep stone was used ignore the truth. Remember the condemnation that was expressed by Joseph with Hiram Page's "revelations" through a peep stone.

[@patrickluchycky1172]

Yes, people forget that Joseph learned at the feet of prophets.

[@dr33776]

Emma confirmed he did: "In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us… .'”

[@bobwilkinson1217]

@@dr33776 Yes, and this is the testimony she gave just a few years before her death and with influence from David Whitmer. Also, Emma was married to a terrible stepfather to her son Joseph Smith III. I can't give her testimony the same credibility as the Lord's, and then Joseph's and Oliver Cowdery's responses to the book Mormonism Unveiled where the Stone In the Hat theory was propagated where both Joseph and Oliver were making it plain that the U&T were the tools used to translate. Remember, Oliver asked to translate, and using the U&T he failed at it because it takes much more preparation to translate.

[@IIIJT]

BYU Scholars and even LDS Church Orthodoxy are slowly moving away from the word translation and more so inferring and / or supplanting the word "translation" with revelation.

[@shoup_group]

Transliteration is a more accurate word.

[@IIIJT]

@shoup_group Narratively, traditionally, yes, I totally agree. Historically, it doesn't fit any significant models congruently.

[@joepiloto]

Here is a thought that I have. Two of the stones touched by the spiritual finger of the Lord for Mahonri became the Urim and Thummim. Which later arrived in Joseph’s possession. I don’t know about the stones that were of Judah and used by the HP from Aaron onward.

[@boydx4687]

As I see it, what we have are clear descriptions of the translation by Emma, David Whitmer, Martin Harris, and Oliver Cowdery's wife, vs. general, and to my mind intentionally vague descriptions by Joseph and Oliver. Joseph told a group of Elders (10/25/1831, I think) that God didn't intend for all the particulars of the translation to be known. The Gurley statement (39:00) that Joseph used the stone "to satisfy the awful curiosity of his followers" doesn't make sense. For me, Jonathan's arguments are interesting, but unconvincing. Thanks so much for the podcast.😀

[@dr33776]

If we believe the witnesses, the u&t was taken away when the 116 pages were lost. Long before Oliver supposedly comes into the picture. Yet he testified that joseph used the u&t. He was not beyond lying for joseph just to get more power in the church.

[@outsideview9052]

I have never heard of a "repository" of records on the Hill Comorah that included record plates of a number of civilizations. The only thing we were taught is that the "gold plates" (are all the plates made of gold ?) were returned to the Angel Moroni. No wonder there is so much criticism of the history of the Church when even the scholars of the Church disagree so much about what Joseph Smith really did.

[@CrackedCandy]

I have heard of this. Edit, let me clarify, I have heard of the repository, but they were of the nephites.

[@martyandsusanzmolek5046]

All second hand reports, including one from Brigham Young a few months before he died. Not clear whether it was a visionary experience or reality. There's no factual basis for several of the ideas in this video.

[@mrjoshua2791]

Wow !, G Edward Griffin testimonial on the cardio miracle web site. I'd trust his word hand's down. As soon as I have a little extra" doe ray me " I'll have to take cardio miracle for a spin. See what's under the hood. As always GREAT VIDEO.

[@rodrigolopez9286]

Hello. From Colombia. Could you please activate Closed captions letters in English Language ? Thank You.

[@26feironworks79]

Hey Greg great stuff as usual here is some food for thought. I have a belief or an idea that our cell phones are a counterfeit version of a seer stone.

[@CwicShow]

Sure.

[@tylermartin6532]

I think a cell phone can be likened to a seer stone. A device that enables you to see out into the world and get information. I think the real counterfeit to a seer stone is the occult fortune tellers looking into crystal balls 🔮 to tell you things about yourself.

[@psychlops924]

I have heard reports that Joseph gave different accounts about handing over the plates. One account was that they were put back into the Hill Cumorah, and the other that we have in the Book of Mormon, where he gave them to Moroni once the translation was finished. The idea that there were two different sets of plates means that both of these accounts can be true. I’d never heard of the idea of two sets of plates before, but this partially blew my mind to hear it explained that way 🤯 Thank you for sharing, this conversation has made several things click for me.

[@davidhocking9085]

The characters Martin Harris took to New York were recorded from the plates of Mormon that was abridged by Mormon covering a 1,000 history. Those characters were reformed Egyptian. The Caractors document is in the handwriting of John Whitmer who acted s scribe to Joseph in Fayette, NY. They are Demotic Egyptian characters. That form of Egyptian writing was common in 600 BC and Nephi wrote his history on the small plates of Nephi 40 years after leaving Jerusalem. The small plates were shown and were handled by the 8 witnesses including John Whitmer. I think John Whitmer copied those characters while he was acting as scribe during the translation of 1 Nephi 2-3. The Plates of Mormon were never handled by the 3 Witnesses. They were given a spiritual witness and the 8 witnesses were provided a physical witness to the small plates of Nephi.

[@CwicShow]

I need to talk to you about this David. This is not my understanding.

[@CrackedCandy]

@@CwicShow agreed, not what I heard either

[@daviddrysdale8882]

Perhaps, over many years, the Church was hesitant to mention the urim and thumim and seer stone and simply say, "By the gift and power of God, stopping there because that was the ONE thing they were sure of! Whether it was a seer stone or the urim and thummim, one thing was certain, it required the gift and power of God!

[@kdeltatube]

But Joseph said from the beginning it was the U&T

[@dr33776]

​@@kdeltatubenot before 1833 when w.w. Phelps speculated that the spectacles were an urim and thummim. That narrative is a rewriting of history to disassociate joseph from magical stones that never found any treasure.

[@benhammond6393]

Alma 24:19...This verse always testifies to me that Joseph translated the plates. He translated Mormon's mistake in saying "weapons of peace".

[@tylermartin6532]

Interesting 🤔👍

[@dr33776]

Or maybe he was just making it up on the spot and had to correct those slip ups. Do you really think Mormon took the time to prepare the metal plates, compile them, engrave them only to have that mistake there? 😂😂😂 I have a bridge to sell you.

[@Heartsinmelody]

I love Jonathan Neville. Great guest.

[@mangyolmutt]

Hey Greg! Is there a good way to contact you? I have something I'd really like to share with you!

[@CwicShow]

www.cwicmedia.com/contact

[@azureskylivingborg]

There is so much to go over in these conversations that it’s hard for either side to get a complete and thorough point in my opinion if you ignore the year and Thummim, you ignore the great men that sacrifice their very lives to complete the plates to keep the record, going from generation to generation Ignore that the hand of the Lord was in the complete works that he prepare the way for the translation. also, to get caught up in these arguments, detract from the fact that it is another testimony of Jesus Christ to increase our faith in him, and his atonement therefore it is up to each of us to gain a testimony of the truthfulness of the book of Mormon, however, it be it came to be.

[@edwarddiviney5226]

As I understand it, the spectacles were too large to fit in a hat of that time. They were made for the brother of Jared, a much larger man than modern men. I agree that Joseph used the stone in hat as a demonstration and obfuscation of the process at the farmhouse. To satisfy the awful curiosity... makes total sense to me.

[@rconger24]

What source do you write about that the Urim and Thummim were so large?

[@redfightblue]

When you visit Egypt make sure to go to Lehi's River Camp. It's located on Elephantine Island. You can see the ruins of his "altar of stones". That's also where the Sariah pottery and papyrus was found.

[@CwicShow]

This is the wrong geography.

[@redfightblue]

@@CwicShow The "3 day journey" to a "continuously flowing river" can only be from the Red Sea to the Nile River. This was done on camel by Carsten Niebuhr in 1700's. He specifically said "Suez is 3 days distant from Cairo". Lehi's journey through the wilderness was up the Nile River. His "River Camp" was on Elephantine Island. The ruins of Jewish Temple are there. Lehi built the temple. The Book of Mormon tells us who built the temple on Elephantine, it was Lehi's "altar of stones". Evidence for Sariah is there as well. The pottery and papyrus found on Elephantine are used as proof Sariah is the name for a women. The Tree of Life Vision commands Lehi to leave Egypt and travel up the Nile to Ethiopia, the location of the Garden of Eden. The vision is a road map out of Israel, through Egypt, and up the Nile to Ethiopia. One strong tradition held by Ethiopians is that Ethiopia is the Garden of Eden. Genesis first mentions Ethiopia when discussing the rivers of Eden. The vision discusses "forbidden paths". These paths lead to Egypt. The Book of Abraham says Egypt is Forbidden. All of this is reference to the Pagan beliefs of Egypt as opposed to the Judaism of the Lehites. Jews that follow Lehi are at risk of falling into Paganism in Egypt unless they hold to the "Iron Rod" which is the Torah.

[@user-yg8jt7qi6w]

Interesting interview.. Where did the theory or idea come in that the plates were not being observed while being translated.?

[@BrendonKing]

Joseph Smith’s own words.

[@dhr161]

​@Brendon King That's not my understanding. What's your citation?

[@lynaryoung7903]

@@BrendonKing I was thinking the opposite was true. He's on record in several accounts that he used the plates.

[@CrackedCandy]

I recall hearing him explain that a sheet was hung up because no one was to watch him. And the scribe would be on the other side, not like the painting shows

[@jaredshipp9207]

I think it was both, but regardless, it seems people get too sucked up in the details. Joseph said he translated the Book of Mormon "by the gift and power of God." If we were meant to have more specific info, he probably would have said more.

[@dr33776]

It is an important detail if he used the same stone he used to defraud people out of their money on his treasure digs, don't you think? Another question, if he was a seer and could locate treasure, why did he sell his services and not look for the treasure himself? Why did he not find any treasure if he was gifted?

[@RichardThePear]

I'll be honest. I'm a Graham Hancock fan, and I automatically want to side with any anti-academic positions because of how long I've been following his stuff. Super problem with my personal bias. Lol.

[@Tahimate]

When Joseph and Moroni communicate, was that in English? I do not see it at any other way.

[@mikebenson6154]

Appreciate the insight of your guest, but I think “translation” to Joseph might not be quite so concise as he believes. I would have liked to have heard his theories on the book of Abraham. He is typical of many that support the mesoamerica or the heartland theory in that they speak negatively of those that don’t see it their way. They seem to think that their position is established church doctrine. I appreciate all the time and effort that both groups devote to the topic, but don’t believe their bitterness towards each other helps the cause.

[@roburry]

I am not a proponent of conflating the Urim and Thumin vs. seer stone issue with the heartland vs. meso-America issue. I believe this conflation is a critical mistake. They are independent issues as well as they are issues of a different type. There are not droves of people leaving the church based on the geography of the BoM argument. Unfortunately the fruits of the Bushmanesque seer-stone rewriting of the origins of the BoM have been the source of numerous faith crises, and apostasy.

[@CwicShow]

Intellectually yes. But in practice people are aligning in camps.

[@roburry]

Yep, aligning in camps does seem to be the case. Somehow it bothers me to even implicitly make an equivalency comparison between let’s say Nibley and Arrington or Welch and Bushman. I have an immense amount of respect for the scholarship of Nibley and Welch. Not as much for the other two.

[@sherriedix5837]

I sometimes feel like I must be living under a rock. I didn’t know Any of this stuff was being debated.

[@rconger24]

I have been following this stuff since 2016. It's nice to see it "coming out of obscurity."

[@protochris]

I was only taught Urim and Thummim. Everything else is fanciful pop explanation.

[@MikeDrysdalePhD]

In the video one argument he makes against the idea of using the seer stone in the hat is that if the words just appear there and he reads them, then there is no translation. But toward the end of the interview he explains what he thinks was happening with the Urim and Thummim, which goes right along with that idea of words appearing and in some instances (Title Page) Joseph reads them verbatim, but in other instances he put them into his grammatical ideas and whatnot. Wouldn't that process be the same for the seer stone in the hat? Seems like arguing against yourself to say that it couldn't have been the hat because of the words appearing, but could be the Urim and Thummim because the words appeared. I guess I'm lost in trying to follow the thinking in that regard.

[@sampson1952]

Didn't Martin Harris replace the "seer stone" with a similar looking rock to test Joseph Smith? Isn't that experience substantiated? If so, doesn't that prove that Joseph Smith used the seer stone?

[@hollydudley9200]

I am curious to know how Jonathan explains the story of Martin Harris substituting Joseph’s stone with one he had found & Joseph was unable to translate.

[@UtahKent]

They simply dismiss what ever doesn't fit their theory. Remember, Lawyers are trained to be advocates, not investgators.

[@principlesoffreedomandlibe6133]

Loved this one. Funny, I always thought that the Urim and Thumim were the seer stones! 😅 Never knew that they were separate and distinct. Well, in my opinion, the scholars won't take Joseph and Oliver's words as truth because they feel they have to distance themselves from being religious zealots to seem more credible to their peers in the academic world. After all, Joe Smith was a crazy, womanizing con-man. 👅. To me, it comes down to wanting to satisfy the world, and the Meso-American ruins give more visible "proof" for the scholars to make a living off of. Simple as that.

[@tylermartin6532]

@@jerrodwertman6979 thoughts on Helaman 3:7-11 where they built houses and cities out of cement

[@brianbacon3106]

@@tylermartin6532look at the construction of buildings and walls used at Cohikia and Fort Ancient. They used Timbers and covered them with “cement” as you describe from the scripture.

[@tylermartin6532]

@@brianbacon3106 Helaman 3:9-10 seems to indicate they still wanted to build with timber but it was scarce. They planted trees but didn’t initially use timber. They lived in tents and cement structures. However they did ship in a lot timber so they probably did continue to use timber to build homes and their cities. Maybe the evolution was what you described and used timber and cement since they became expert in both

[@kadenb7258]

Many of the key points Neville tried to make were lost on me. It seemed he passed over the details too quickly or assumed I had some background knowledge to his arguments. I was also distracted by his laughter at not being able to understand other people's reasoning. In the last video he starts with not being contentious about these topics, yet he used some language that I thought was derogatory to his peers. Ultimately, I felt more confusion with Neville so far. Perhaps you can outline the competing theories in another video, Greg. All the same, thank you for the video. I appreciate your work.

[@magitekarms60]

Look up Hannah Stoddard and the Joseph Smith Foundation. She's been on several LDS podcasts lately so she should be fairly easy to find. She has a great explanation for this topic and why the narrative has been garbled over time. I think Neville was laughing because he knows the backgrounds of these characters making these claims about the validity of the seer stone narrative (which Hannah handily explains). Long story short, their narrative is pretty laughable when considering the sources and ideology behind the narrative.

[@CwicShow]

I know Hannah

[@CrackedCandy]

@@CwicShow get her on to explain it Greg. Thanks for your help with the cause

[@jasonmears4393]

I'm a bit confused 😕 so, Joseph Smith translated the book of mormon with the urum and thummin as he was looking at the plates? The stone in a hat was never a true source of the book of mormon translation? Oliver cowdery and Joseph smith never talked about using stone in a hat for the translation, is that correct?

[@rconger24]

You can watch their video but yes.

[@dr33776]

They both lied.

[@jameswebster5405]

In their new book By Means Of The Urim & Thummim, Jonathan and James make a very cogent argument about Emma's last testimony. Joseph Smith III's account of the interview must be considered in context.

[@dr33776]

What about Martin Harris, David whitmer , Isaac hales? How do you waive those away?

[@The_K-Dude]

Was the Urim and Thummim not considered seer stones?

[@rconger24]

Spectacles are not stones.

[@lynphillips2109]

These interviews with Jonathan Neville (in Cwic, Ward Radio, Last Dispensation, etc) have put trouble in my heart. I did grow up learning that Joseph translated with Urim and Thummim only by power of God. So I believed Neville's research. But I didn't feel peace about it. I listened to Don Bradley's history on 116 Lost Pages on (again) Ward Radio and others, and I feel peaceful. He explains both seerstone and Urim and Thummim --they are all seerstones. Plus President Nelson himself spoke of Seerstone in a Hat. Why limit the Divine? Both methods were used. And the hat was made of animal skin (beaver)-- similar to ancient Israelite prophets and priests. Why stir up controversy? It gets these shows views, I suppose, but it can cause trouble and depression n people's hearts and takes away from the main Focus of the Gospel.

[@scottbrandon6244]

Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, Emma Smith all stated in written form that Smith used a top hat and seer stone. The Urim and Thummim may have been used initially but others did not see JS use it. Even our current prophet wrote about this in an issue of Ensign back in the 1990s.

[@l7846]

Ummm. Did you miss the explanation of those very accounts?

[@toddbender3463]

​​​@@l7846 he didnt watch the video

[@boydx4687]

@@toddbender3463 He (Scott Brandon) might have watched the video of President Nelson demonstrating how the seer stone and hat process looked like. But I could be wrong.

[@CrackedCandy]

@@boydx4687 I saw that video. Interesting.

[@avoice423]

Mormon says he added the account of Nefi to his book. Words of Mormon 1-7

[@brianbacon3106]

45:30- you ask the question why? It appears it really goes to Joseph Smith’s authority. Did he have it or didn’t he? Was this Gods prophet and this is the restored gospel or did Father once again err like he did in the Meridian of time? He allowed Jesus to be born but in reality sent His only begotten book. Martin Luther had to find authority in sola scriptura otherwise those selling indulgences (works) had the authority and he didn’t. In Joseph smiths day manifest destiny ruled the day. The Native American was deemed a legal term “savage” so that there was a pathway to expand. Early saints found this to be a great weakness in the argument for the Book of Mormon. The Lamanites couldn’t be an advanced civilization of Jews because the neighbors knew them as uncivilized savages. So they changed the narrative. It didn’t take hold until the expansion of missionary work in central and South America took off in the 50’s. Like all good missionary’s they returned home with a great love for the people of their mission. The current crop of historians all served missions in central and South America so it just must be accurate that these people we love are the real lamanites even though Nibley himself said their was no viable evidence to be found there on his one and only visit to the region. Today historians want to be mainstream. They want to fit in at conferences and not be dismissed as “ Mormon horse hair shirt wearers” so they can’t claim authority as Joseph Smith claimed. So we have adopted for Joseph Smith a “ Magic World View” based on forged documents that historians refused to accept as false at the time and now can reconcile through accepting Mormonism Unveiled. Joseph Smith had no real authority except that which he claimed came out of a hat like Rocky and Bulwinkle. Who doesn’t love a flying squirrel that at the end of the day is a cartoon. Your entire Cwic enterprise is based on defending the church from those who question its authority. The woke, the post modern, the progmo’s. This is where the rubber meets the road. Joseph Smith had authority to use the receptacles from God to translate, restore and prophesy and bring forth a guy wheaty like you, or he didn’t and the tares should be allowed to misrepresent him and comfortably teach that Christ was gay and fly the rainbow flag in bookstores and accept paychecks backed with tithing funds. It appears it comes down to authority. Joseph Smith has it or he doesn’t. People will come to the wedding feast with the garment on or they will refuse. But one thing may be sure, “You are free to choose what you would like to do, but you are not free to choose the consequences of your choices “ U.S. Secretary of Agriculture, Ezra T. Benson. Through both these shows you asked many times, “ Why does this even matter?” You have answered this often throughout the series - 82% of millennials are leaving the church - because they think the boomers and leadership are full of “cods wallow” as we no longer testify with unified evidence that Joseph Smith has authority from Jesus Christ Himself. It may not matter to a boomer how Joseph Translated but to a young mind pickled on woke culture it absolutely does. We have become a house divided, like Kirtland, clay county and Nauvoo. We still can’t bring ourselves to follow the prophet so we check are garments at the door and March into the feast with our stones and our hats. Hopefully eating drinking and being merry will work out for us with our hats, stones and multiple cumorahs. After all 18% percent retention of millennials is more than double what our elders quorum did in ministering this quarter. Great pair of shows. Lots of food for thought.

[@sandkeepersaint9112]

Joseph will release the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon in the future. He has the keys for that work. We will get new scripture when the 10 lost tribes return as well. People will have 2 problems.... Joseph Smith Jr will have to be resurrected to hold the plates...3 Nephi 21:10 he is "My Messenger" that will help redeem Zion ( The Sadducees didn't believe in resurrection and the Pharacies believed laws were more important than the results, like healing people because they didn't want to lose their power and standing. I can see this being dualism.) If Joseph continues to restore the law of consecration and the other celestial law CPM then people will lose their minds that he doesn't have the power of prophecy. Scriptures predict an apostasy before the second coming.

[@NancyBrown-xw8hg]

I think those who say it was with the seer stone have confused the translation of the Book of Mormon with the pure revelation of the Book of Moses.

[@bobwilkinson1217]

The Urim and Thumin are stones. It may make sense if you consider that the Jaradite spectacles were too big for Joseph to wear on his face. He could have taken one of the stones out of the Urim and Thumin frame and put it in a hat to translate. But the seer stone was not used to receive revelation.

[@rconger24]

What source do you write about that the Urim and Thummim were so large?

[@bobwilkinson1217]

@@rconger24 The Jaredites were large and mighty men. Adena skeletons have been unearthed in New York and Ohio, the skulls of which are twice the size of men's skulls today. Some of these skeletons measured 7-10 in length. The Urim and Thummim were given by the Lord to Jaredite prophets. Joseph used them to translate the entire Book of Mormon. One does not take a gift from God by assignment and then tell God that "I have a better way and better instrument to translate".

[@keithsmith5998]

Joseph Smith was over 6 feet. And large in stature.

[@bobwilkinson1217]

The Nephite/Jaredite Interpreters, as the Lord describes are a "gift from God". With that fact, I will make a logical assumption that they were "prepared" by God, and within the stones was put a mechanism, power, or energy that "enlightened the mind and made precise communication to the mind". Therefore, any language could be interpreted by an authorized user and any necessary knowledge could be obtained by the user. We all should remember that when we pass into the spirit world we don't communicate using any specific "constructed language" but communication is by spirit to spirit via clear thoughts or impressions. Therefore, as Joseph translated, the clear thoughts of what the characters meant, were given to him and he had to dictate to his scribe in his own words the meaning of the characters. It was not a "revelation" like those he received in various sections of the Doctrine and Covenants but was indeed a translation.

[@brendanwilsonvfx5705]

I thought he used the urrim and thummim first the glasses to translate the first 116 pages. Where he litterly was translating with the help of the spectacles looking at the book of Mormon plates himself. Which is why the curtain was needed so Joseph could look at the plates. And then once the 116 pages were lost the urim and thummim was taken away as prescribed by the Lord. But Joseph used the seer stone to translate the book of Mormon by the gift and power of God and it acted as the urrim and thummim but in a different manner, in the hat, doing it that way Joseph didn't need the plates to be out. If they wouldn't have lost the 116 pages he probably never would have used a seer stone and always looked at the plates himself through the spectacles. I believe eventually he was able to use the spectacles again at a future point but found the rock just as helpful. This is from my analysis after studying it for a long time. I could be wrong though.

[@BrianTerrill]

President Nelson even has explained how Joseph used the seer stone by putting it in a hat. So its an issue of if we follow our current priphets or the heartlanders. In this day and age when we can read the Book of Mormon either by opening the actual book or we can read it off our phone, 2ith or without the hard copy of the Book of Mormon present.

[@tezralazenby]

I knew that when I joined the church 52 years ago. My son has seen them at the history center of the church. I had no problem w/it. The Prophet didn’t use the stones long b/c he learned to read w/o them. We taught our kids rarely b/c we didn’t think about seer stones much using the whole “translated.” Our mistake & we should’ve added everything to our FHE lessons. (big books) 6 active children w/treats on their minds.

[@123mneil]

What does Neville think the seer stone that the church published pictures of used for?

[@123mneil]

Let me get this straight. Neville's hypothesis is that Joseph Smith misled a large group of people into thinking he translated using a stone in a hat when he really used the urim and thummim. 😮😬 I thought the point of your hypothesis was to show Joseph Smith with telling the truth to the public. This seems deceptive to me.

[@123mneil]

I feel like the more an apologist knows about history the more elaborate the explanation. Here's the thing. As he starts I feel like this would have satisfied my questioning self because it felt like a simple way to keep what I learned at church true. However his story gets very unique and very much personal (I doubt anybody else believes his theory in whole) as it goes on. So then my questioning self is left with either believing this guy's theory or the gospel topic essays (published by the church), or coming up with my own personal theory that works for me, but none of them are what I learned at church. Many members get on the case of those of us that have left and try to say that because we don't know exactly how Joseph Smith published the book of Mormon it must been by the power of god. Why? "The power of god" isn't much of a theory either. There isn't a clear narrative from the practicing side either.

[@rconger24]

So Mary Whitmer was shown the second set of plates, the small plates? I do not believe in the SITH (stone in the hat) theory. I believe what the Doctrine and Covenants sections 9 and 10.

[@holdruss6197]

He used the seer stone, but didn't need it. He dictated the BoM through practice, memory and "laying down the heads."

[@nathangreer8219]

Listen, it's OK to accept that the seer stone was used. In fact, the Urim and Thumim are by definition "seer stones", so what's the problem here? Is the "stone in a hat" narrative really harder to believe than the use of supernatural stones set in a metal bow? Also, seeing the BOM translation as a character-to-character "pure" translation doesn't work; we now have much larger problems to deal with, including King James language in the text, the so-called "Isaiah problem", and even that pesky "adieu" at the end of Jacob. The genuine use of the these seer stones was to present the content of the plates in a format that would have been familiar to Joseph Smith.

[@dr33776]

Maybe the troubling part is that he looked for treasure using the same stone in the hat and he never found anything, he still charged the people he conned though.

[@tx2jbh81]

Is that a PRS on your wall? She’s a beaut 😍