Where Is Cumorah? Where Did The Book of Mormon Take Place? Geography (feat. Jonathan Neville)

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I have no horse in this race. But many do. Where did the Book of Mormon take place? What is the Book of Mormon Geography as per the text and statements of Joseph Smith and early saints? The academic model is the Meso-American model. But there is a growing belief in what has become known as the Heartland model which states that the Book of Mormon took place in the Eastern United States. According to scholar Jonathan Neville, one of the thought leaders of the Heartland Model, if we simply listen to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, we would have to take a closer look at this model.
Is there "gatekeeping" going on at Book of Mormon Central (Scripture Central)?
Key to the Heartland Model is the location of Cumorah. The Meso-American Model has the Hill Cumorah in Meso-America. The Heartland Model in New York. Obviously, the plates were found in New York, but the meta-narrative is that this hill was mistakenly called Cumorah or "traditionally" called Cumorah. Listen to this conversation and make your own judgment.
Part 2 - Urim and Thummim OR Seer Stone? - • Did Joseph Smith Reall...
Mesoamerican Model feat. Brant Gardner - • Where Is Cumorah? Meso...
Jonathan Neville Resources
Between These Hills - amzn.to/408FEXR
Jonathan's Books - www.digitalege...
On the M2C Model, Letter VII - www.lettervii....
Museum of the Book of Mormon - www.mobom.org/
Blog on Church history: www.ldshistoric...
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[@DJO_61]

This information is what I was told by my now-deceased father. My grandfather was so disliked by his mother that when his father (my great-grandfather) was away from home for 6 months of the year, his father left him (and one of his brothers) with a Navajo family on the reservation. Initially, he was bullied and abused by the Navajo boys, but as he grew into a teen, he eventually earned respect and ultimately became a "storyteller", which I understand was a prestigious position in the tribe. The stories he told were from the Book of Mormon. At some point, people at the neighboring Hopi reservation got wind of his stories and they were furious that my grandfather was telling their sacred ancestral stories to the Navajo. They were so angry that for many years my grandfather had to be very careful not to let his identity be known if there were any Hopi around. His name, and that of his brother, essentially became swear words in the Hopi language. Back in the '90s, when my parents were serving a mission, my father encountered a Hopi man who confirmed that those names are still swear words in Hopi, although he didn't know why. I suspect that they discerned similarities in the story of Christ in the Americas and Pahana, the Lost White Brother.

[@tracystoutbehunin9303]

Thank u for sharing your remarkable history.

[@ceebee5843]

I heard something similar, even that Hopi words in ceremonies and our words in the temple are the same. I was also told that Hopi believe they have the truth and someday they will share it with the world.

[@keithsmith5998]

There are many parallels in the Navajo Traditional Teachings that can be found in the Book of Mormon and the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. They immigrated from the east of modern day USA to the four corners region because the Holy people told them because of the wars going on 2,000 years ago.

[@bigtobacco1098]

Now if we could just get the dna evidence

[@antonolder5560]

One of the First books I brought after Joining the Church in 1986 was " In search of Cumorah" by David A. Palmer "New Evidence for the Book of Mormon from Ancient Mexico". I shared it with my friend, who is now a CES coordinator & teaches over the UK, Europe & parts of Africa for the Chuch. - As we discussed these two Cumorah's one day in our institute lesson, our institute teacher pulled out the Book of Mormon & recited scripture that the Hill was in the USA New york where Lehi & his family landed on the land of Liberty he also showed us some writings from Joseph Smith - saying in was here, in New York State - and he said the day would come when the earth would reveal the bones swords, breastplates used by the Jaridites, the Nephites & Lamanites - but first men have to exercise faith.

[@BrianTerrill]

It would be interesting if those sources were properly pointed to. The Heartland model relies a whole lot on hearsay evidence. The Book of Mormon itself tells us that Zarahemla and Nephi were nearly surrounded by water, that Bountiful was north of Zarahemla and south of the narrow neck of land. Above that was the land of desolation where the Jaredites wiped themselves out. Note that most heartlanders place the narrow neck north west of cumorah

[@commoncents5191]

BofM also says that there were massive changes to the landscape at the coming of Christ. We don’t have any geography descriptions after that time.

[@LovesTrains440]

The Hopewell people lived there and in many places of the heartland. They had metal breastplates, headplates and swords. Not wooden pattals with volcanic glass tied to them. Its very interesting. I'll post a link to some great videos or a channel dedicated to this topic in a second reply.

[@BrianTerrill]

@Mason Ponton even if you find metal breastplates and swords in the heartland, that doesn't prove book of Mormon events rook place there. The Book of Mormon makes it clear that after the battles that Captain Moroni fought in, there were massive migrations northward The Book of Mormon is clear based off the verses I already quoted that the land of Nephi and Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water which disqualifies the heartland model. Pointing these facts out to heartlanders is a lot like pointing out the facts from the Bible to Evangelicals that the church fell into an apostasy and there was a need for a restoration rather than just a little reform. Everyone is attached to their own thinking and try to manipulate the text of scripture to their agenda rather than bending to the scripture as we should

[@senorbb2150]

Wow all I got to say is that the LDS people for over 190 years have never been able to muster enough faith to have those bones, swords & breastplates revealed. So far the prophets have failed miserably.

[@kirkharrop9193]

I grew up in the RLDS/CofC church in Ohio and went to church camp, which was called Camp Bountiful. I visited it a few years back and felt a more sacred feeling for the place that I didn't feel when I was younger. I have experienced much in the way of where I have lived that Heavenly Father has me see the importance of more so since I have joined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

[@theoelliott5944]

I actually ran a Twitter poll about this once. The Heartland model won. Ever since I started investigating the Church, I've always figured it makes the most sense for the Book of Mormon to have taken place in North America. I've never been convinced by the Mesoamerican model.

[@ralphmiller2265]

After many years of believing it took place in Mesoamerica I began taking the geography seriously and then discovered these other locations, especially the North American Heartland region. As more and more is brought forth and coming to light, the evidence is overwhelming. Culture, various evidences within teachings from the Book of Mormon, alters, burial practices of Algonquin and Cherokee tribes, DNA, artifacts, carbon dating and so many archaeological findings such as berms and wood wall ruins and remains all point to the Heartland region which is a much larger geographical area than the Mesoamerica model. Sometimes we over look how vast the eastern United States actually is when you're on foot. It took time for me because I had been conditioned for so long due to FARMS but I believe (almost to a sure knowledge) that it is indeed the Heartland.

[@서수미-p1t]

You had me at "Twitter poll."

[@JamesWrightLBC]

Mesoamerica is part of North America.

[@kdeltatube]

Jonathan rocks! He's so logical. He's not argumentative but he knows how to argue (philosophically), IOW, contends without being the least bit contentious. I consider myself fairly diligent and studied in BoM, taught early morning seminary for 4 yrs, about a dozen yrs teaching Gospel Doctrine, I love teaching and the vast amount of study I get to do in class prep even though only about 20% can be presented/discussed in class. Anyway, I used to be mesoAmerican disciple. Jonathan's trial lawyer analysis of the data converted me to being much more inclined to the Heartland theory. But, like Jonathan, once you read what Joseph, Oliver, Lucy, and those who knew Joseph said, my firm conviction is there is one Cumorah and that's right where they said it is, Palmyra, NY. Stick a pin in the map for that. Then there are Joseph's letters to Emma about traversing the lands of the Nephites on Zion's Camp, Nephite altars in Adam Ondi Ahman, and also I think the verses in the BoM about the Gentiles and the Promised Land becoming the most powerful and prosperous, but then also falling. To me, that only refers to the US, not Guatemala or Mexico or some other southern hemisphere country. All that said, it's very interesting to study different ideas. We should do so with empathy for others and allow their ideas. Another thing, the BoM is to bring people to Christ. This is for all. One does not have to join the church to feel the spirit and love of Christ when they read that actual history and spiritual record of a people who actually lived and were visited by the Savior. It's not merely historical fiction IMO. If someone reads it honestly, they will feel the spirit like I said, and I leave it to the Spirit to help them find what to do about that. But it's a book for all Christians and people. It says so in the introduction. It doesn't then say join this church. People should not feel intimidated to read it. They shoukd just read it cause it testifies of Christ. For real. BTW, I have read several of his books, Letter VII, Moroni's America, A Man Who Can Translate, Between These Hills, and others. I recommend reading his books.

[@mrselizavl5250]

His novel Moronis Keys is a good short story to gift to people to introduce to them the heartland model ❤❤

[@spenguinfan2967]

Interesting discussion. 1.Having just completed rereading Ether, it was clear to me that the millions lost in battle were over a sizable period of time, not some culmination battle. 2. The obvious advantage of the Meso model is the distances that appear to be traveled on foot between great seas. 3. To me an advantage of the Heartland model, besides Oliver's written account, have a lot to do with BOM prophesies about the freedom of the land of promise. That seems to jibe with the general history of the United States far more than the perpetually oppressed peoples south of the Rio Grande.

[@jeffwhipple2658]

Greg, thank you so much for having Jonathan on your show. I really like his approach to all of this. He is so kind but makes strong points. I hope other LDS influencers follow your lead and have more Heartlanders on shows. It is growing in the church for a reason and we need more voices talking about this in an intelligent manner as you two do so well. THANK YOU!

[@CwicShow]

You’re welcome

[@libertyrockwalls]

Hey Greg, great interview! I know you’re planning on having Jonathan talk about the peep stone for the next video but I’m wondering if you would consider also Hannah Stoddard and the work the Joseph Smith Foundation has done on the matter? I have read several of their books on this subject from the Joseph Smith Foundation and think it’s right up your alley to delve into the translation etc with Hannah. Anyway, keep up the work and I’ve enjoyed your videos.

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

Hannah doesn't get her history or facts correct

[@kevingarner1558]

Thank you so much for having this interview. Jonathon is a wealth of knowledge and has the proper attitude and spirit. It has always baffled me how the Meso-American promotors have discounted the word of Joseph and Oliver and leaned upon the their own learning. I can't wait for the episode dealing with the translation. I agree with Jonathan that these two issues have caused a great deal of damage to many peoples testimonies, or potential testimonies. Thank you for the links to Jonathan's information. I encourage people to learn more.

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

It is great that you have Brother Neville on today. I have watched him several times on Mormon Book Reviews and really enjoy hearing his ideas and the way he presents those ideas. I first learned about the Heartland theory about seven or eight years ago when I came across Wayne May video on youtube. It sure makes sense to me.

[@livinthedream4479]

I love that he’s open to other models and actually takes Joseph and I’ll over at his word

[@ruckin3]

"Saints" has a lot of errors and should not be taken as scripture . I was shocked how they portrayed Orson Hyde who is akin to the Great Apostle Paul in his MASSIVE missionary efforts and Blessing on the Mount of Olives . Orson Hyde made an error while very sick and very separated from the apostles (by distance..they were often very spread apart) and Orson immediately traveled to Joseph Smith to ask for forgiveness and said he should have been more in tune with the spirit but was sick and got caught up in the emotions of others. Joseph Smith welcomed him w open arms and immediately forgave him and was reinstated as an Apostle immediately and was in line to be the next prophet (until they changed from age to seniority ). Saints chose to only focus on that one moment in Orsons life and dismiss him. I was like WTH....It made me realize the rest of what I was reading probably should be taken w a grain of salt. I imagine if the Authors of Saints spoke at my funeral, they might only speak about the worst moment of my life

[@karisamullen4279]

Yes, after hearing this, I decided not to continue the Saints books.

[@kevingarner1558]

I am sure that for the most part the Scholars are well meaning and have done a lot of good, but when they have to down play the words of the Prophet to make their theories valid I have a hard time giving their theories much validity. It always makes me think of the fact that the Savior himself had to fight the teachings of the Scholars of His day and that they were the ones who, though many were probably well meaning, had Him crucified.

[@robynmills5534]

Academia kills me. They put themselves on a pedestal like no other I feel. So Joseph, who was tutored by an Angel was wrong and they, who are tutored by men and their own research and deduction are right. Thanks but I’ll place my trust in an Angel who communes with Jehovah. I love this guy! He’s great! Thanks for having him on!

[@davus4242]

So to clarify, are you saying you trust Joseph's beliefs & opinions, over other scholars and other researchers, regarding the Book of Mormon record?

[@robynmills5534]

@@davus4242 absolutely. I think, being taught and tutored by an angel far exceeds any kind of knowledge a scholar could obtain by his own efforts.

[@davus4242]

@@robynmills5534 Excellent! Indeed, Joseph was well tutored, by many Angels and visions regarding the Book of Mormon, Joseph truly is the one qualified mortal expert on the Book of Mormon. Everyone else (in mortality) including Oliver, would be secondary to Joseph's opinion. Correct, Joseph's knowledge and expertise of the Book of Mormon, does far exceed the opinion of any earthly scholar or run-of-the-mill non-scholar researchers such as Mr. Neville in this video?

[@davus4242]

Perhaps what Joseph believed would be of interest to you. The Church's main focus and mission is to proclaim and teach the Gospel of Christ; BOM & Biblical geography are not topics the Church dwells on, thus many latter-day saints are unaware Joseph claimed and declared Zarahemla was in Central America; he even put it in writing and published it. If you're interested in historical facts, google - Times and Seasons October 1, 1842 Zarahemla. Joseph as Editor, along with his assistant editors, Apostles John Taylor & Wilford Woodruff (both of whom would become presidents of the Church), boldly declare as an "important fact" - Zarahemla was in Central America, in the land of Guatemala. To substantiate the claim and declaration, Joseph, being very familiar with the details of the BOM, quotes and rehearses Alma 22 describing the region where Zarahemla was. This is what Joseph felt and believed, and he printed it in the Church's Times and Seasons paper, there's no hearsay about it. True story look it up. The editors then went on to clarify, they weren't declaring an exact or specific city mentioned in an explorer's book, they had previously named and discussed in a previous edition of the T&S as the city of Zarahemla. They didn't feel impressed to declare that specific city Zarahemla, only that Zarahemla was somewhere in Central America. However, they (Joseph, John, & Wilford) are of the opinion that the previously named city, was a city of the Book of Mormon, just not Zarahemla. Read the T&S article for the details. Keep in mind, this secondary clarification of a specific city previously named as not being Zarahemla, does not dissolve the declared important fact, that Zarahemla was in Central America. The important fact of Zarahemla being in Central America collaborates with the BOM narrative. You either trust Joseph or you don't. To attempt to speculate this declaration away is futile. Also, know, in the same T&S Oct 1, 1842 edition, the editors (Joseph, John, & Wilford) refute the conspiring claims, suggesting Joseph had fled the area of Nauvoo and is on the run. Truth is, Joseph was still in the area and still very much editor of what was printed in the T&S Oct 1, 1842; while at the same time avoiding false arrest of conspiring men. Read the full edition, Joseph was still around and still very much in charge, as represented & substantiated by the T&S article itself. So a very special thanks to the editors(Joseph, John, & Wilford), for documenting this conspiracy so long ago and clearing it up for future generations. Keep in mind, earlier that year, when Joseph took over as editor of the T&S, he declared, and assured the readers, that he alone would be responsible for what was printed in the T&S while he was editor. Joseph was Editor until November 15, 1842, a full six weeks after Joseph makes the declaration that Zarahemla is in Central America; at which time Joseph steps aside as Editor and appoints John Taylor as the new Editor of the Times and Season. Logic and common sense dictate if John Taylor had published the Zarahemla claim on his own, without Joseph's knowledge and consent, and if Joseph didn't agree with it; would Joseph have promoted John to Editor six weeks after such declaration?? The thought makes reason stare. Further, "if" Joseph didn't oversee the publication of the October 1, 1842 edition, and he disagreed with the bold declaration, know this, Joseph would have had it retracted, as he assured his readers he was responsible. Joseph never had it retracted. Truth is, Joseph is the one who published it; Joseph was Editor and owns the declaration, Zarahemla is in Central America. You either trust Joseph or you don't. Next, go to the Church's website and search - 'Book of Mormon Geography'. Notice, the church takes no stance on the exact location of BOM cities, because no exact locations have been revealed. However, in the same statement on the Church's website, the Church does acknowledge Joseph's beliefs on the subject, and further confirms and substantiates Joseph as Editor of the Times & Seasons in 1842 for the articles referring to Book of Mormon lands and Central America (aka Mesoamerica). Very interesting indeed. Kinda clears up any speculation. Joseph, states Zarahemla is in Central America, within the borders of Guatemala, as he would have known it on the maps of his day. For additional & interesting collaboration on what Joseph would have known Guatemala to be in his day, google - "map of Guatemala 1825" (or 1835, it doesn't matter) open a properly labeled map and notice Guatemala's borders back in Joseph's day extended as far north to include the Chiapas & Palenque areas of modern-day Mexico. Say what! A very interesting area indeed! Long before any scholar pronounce their own theory as to the location of the land of Zarahemla, Joseph had already declared it to be Central America. No scholars or theories needed to narrow down the general area, Joseph did it for us. All things considered, it all fits. With Zarahemla being in Central America, does the BOM narrative accommodate Joseph's claims of "walking the plains of the Nephites" and the Zelph stories? Could both be accurate and plausible? Yes, in fact, these stories actually collaborate with the BOM narrative precisely with no contradiction. Alma 63 and Helaman 3:3-5,12-16 states many groups of Nephites left the land of Zarahemla & Bountiful and migrated to the north country, both by land and by sea. This also accounts for how a Zelph-type character and other descendants of converted Lamanites were in the northern country during the last struggles. Remember these Nephites departed FROM the lands of Zarahenla and Bountiful sailing across a sea. Also note, there is a sea, not just land, between Zarahemla and the land of a New Jerusalem in the north country. So yes, there are plains of Nephites in the heartland of the north country, There are no contradictions by Joseph, and no mental gymnastics are required. There are even statements in the BOM narrative that signal there was commerce trade happening between the Nephites in the land of Zarahemla/Bountiful and the migrant Nephites groups in the north country. It's all in the book. The book itself, says we will find evidence of Nephite cultures in the heartland of North America; only the evidence found is that of other Nephite groups that left the lands of Zarahemla & Bountiful where the prophets Nephi through Mormon dwelt, which is in Central America. No academics or scholars are needed to locate the region of the continent where the city of Zarahemla was; Joseph already took care of it in 1842; it's in Central America. After studying the Book of Mormon and all of Joseph's statements, I agree with Joseph; Zarahemla is somewhere in Central America. I'm certainly not going with the opinion of a guy selling books based upon uninspired, inaccurate, secondhand letters of Oliver. Oliver couldn't even keep the timeline of the first vision and Moroni visit straight, as he conflates them into one event. Joseph had to have Oliver retract the mistake, which Oliver does in the next letter (which demonstrates Joseph didn't actually dictate or help write the letters in the first place, as Mr. Neville insinuates. Oliver made the mistake on his own, and Joseph corrected it after the letter was written). However, to this day, anti-Mormons use Oliver's debacle as evidence it's a made-up story, that the story evolved, and that they couldn't keep their story straight. In another inaccurate Oliver letter, Oliver places himself as equal to Joseph in place of authority, referring to Joseph as "one" of the presidents of the Church, hello, Joseph was the President, and Oliver was only an assistant, there's a big difference. Joseph realizes Oliver was inept with the task of accurately writing the history; Joseph removes Oliver from writing the history and calls someone else to do it. Oliver lets his ego rule his emotions, continues to falter, and is excommunicated for dissension and sedition. Sad, but true. The Oliver letters are inaccurate, full of mis & disinformation, and of no or very little worth in the correct history of Joseph, the Church, and the Book of Mormon. All things considered, it all adds up and fits; I'm going with Joseph on this one, Zarahemla is in Central America; you either trust him or you don't. The Book of Mormon is correct and true! Take care now!

[@rconger24]

Jonathan Neville is always a great interview. I like his idea of "Multiple Working Hypotheses."

[@shireecox122]

I’m a Heartlander %100. It just makes sense to my heart and mind.

[@bradpetersen7803]

​@@anthonyrippa686 mounds still stand. The timbers that were on the mound have since been destroyed, rotted or removed for repurposing.

[@shireecox122]

@@anthonyrippa686 did you hear him talking about the Adena and Hopewell mounds?

[@byrokinsman2576]

@@anthonyrippa686 The Nephites built their buildings with wood, and their fortifications were largely earth and wood. The only other material mentioned for buildings was cement, which was only used until they could obtain timber. Stone walls are mentioned briefly, but earth mounds and pickets were clearly the main way to defend a city. "Cement highways" are never mentioned in the BoM, so I'm not sure where you're getting that. Everything about their traveling is subjective. How north was "northward"? How south was "southward"? How far was an "exceedingly great distance"? There is no objective way to determine these things. And given that they were ancient people without modern transportation, what they thought of as "far" was probably not as far as what we think of.

[@bheer98]

​@@anthonyrippa686 I was born and raised in Southern Ohio and have had the privilege of exploring the land and mounds. There are many evidences of cement and ancient land removal that seem to match with events in The Book of Mormon, along with the aforementioned mounds.

[@byrokinsman2576]

@@anthonyrippa686 We don't know how extensive the cement use was. The BoM says they also lived in tents during that time. Cement was used only until timber could be acquired. Timber appears to be the desired building material: "they did suffer whatsoever tree should spring up upon the face of the land that it should grow up, that in time they might have timber to build their houses, yea, their cities, and their temples, and their synagogues, and their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings." They wanted timber so badly that they "did send forth much by the way of shipping." So again, how much they actually used cement is unknown (and it was only in the land northward). This cement period also took place before the destructions in 3 Nephi, which may have destroyed many of the cement structures.

[@bobwilkinson1217]

Robert E. Lee surveyed the Mississippi River and especially the land opposite Nauvoo and a bit upriver from there. He sounded the river at the rapids and the deepest spot was about 5 feet, with most of the river at the rapids being only a few feet deep. This is the only place where the armies of the Nephites could have waded across the Mississippi river to get behind the Lamanites. No other place on the whole Mississippi River could one wade across.

[@fiddlermom9629]

When I first read about the "Heartland" model, it immediately rang true to me. I met Rod Meldrum at Costco and got his book (Exploring the Book of Mormon in America's Heartland) there. One of the main things he brought out was the DNA evidence -- the only native American DNA that has Jewish origins is in the Algonquin tribes in the Northeast of THIS country. That is really cool to me! But the books on the Heartland model present so MUCH evidence, and comparatively, the evidence for the meso-American model is much weaker.

[@jeffreya.faulkner8367]

DNA evidence shows the Algonquian women were appealing to European trappers and explorers. White women were attractive to Indians, too. Ha!

[@bryanl.taylor6249]

I think Johnathan Neville’s books are especially helpful to understanding the arguments on both sides. I was first convinced of Central America model when I watched the movie, “Ancient America Speaks”, in high school seminary. Seeing is believing. This gives eye candy to that model which was taught as theory at BYU when I was there. I was first introduced to the Heartland geo model from the TV mini series, “Hidden in the Heartland”, which I believe is still available… Anyway the Heartland model aligns with LDS history and BofM teachings about the history of THIS land from then to now…, first hand teachings of Joseph & Oliver, church history and even family traditions concerning the Hill Cumorah / BofM (my father’s Uncle Willard Bean) and the annual pageants where my mother performed as a missionary many decades ago. Each must find their own way but this is part of my faith tradition that I accept for many reasons! I love Johnathan Neville’s books! But my testimony in Christ and the scriptures especially the Book of Mormon.

[@davehahn8767]

Great post! I also like the Wayne May videos.

[@chrishumphries7489]

Interesting conversation! While not a gospel topic that is necessarily pertinent to our salvation, I still find it so interesting and intriguing. Having studied both points of view, I can say that I used to be on the Mesoamerican model side. However, only last year I started moving pretty strongly over to the Heartland model side. Both theories have their merits, and I’ll be excited when it truly comes to light where exactly it all happened. What matters though is that it did. Christ manifested Himself to these “other sheep” as well as others of the lost tribes of Israel and the record we have, known as the Book of Mormon, is such a powerful witness of that.

[@kevinfrost9686]

The area between Buffalo and Palmyra is roughly 300 miles Sq. Soper and Squire the early antiquarian figured there were some 1200 fortified hill redouts. This was mortal combat, the final stand of about 3oo ooo souls.

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

I will be having Jonathan Neville on my show this Sunday, March 26th. Look up at Mormon Discussion Inc. Under Live. I will get the link up thursday

[@bobwilkinson1217]

Lehi and his family gathered the harvest and loaded the boat on the SE Arabian peninsula and the sailing time around Africa would be the perfect time to land in Florida and plant their seeds, as it says they did in the B of M.

[@prezp00nage24]

Thank you for exploring all sides Greg!

[@tedomer3627]

I always enjoy interviews with Jonathan Nevill. Thank you.

[@CwicShow]

You're welcome!

[@donaldlatham7040]

also to the cumorah evidence, there was a newspaper article from that area and the early settlers and it stated that locals were collecting huge baskets filled with the artifacts of a great battle. i recall some bones were included.

[@jerry_phillips]

These speculations are just rabbit holes that take our focus off the point of The Book of Mormon. I really don't know why so many are fixated on locating the places in the BoM.

[@lynnsmith4852]

I have no problem with either model, its harder to understand that Garden of Eden is in Missouri, but we believe Joseph on that, so why not believe him on the heartland model as well

[@kevingarner1558]

There is a lot of evidence that the land before the flood at Noah's time was basically one continent. The secular scientist call it Pangea. When you put the continents back together it makes it much easier to see that the Garden was located where Joseph said. Answers in Genesis is a great Christian organization that has wonderful KZbin videos that explain this. They don't talk about Joseph's revelations of course, but great scientific based information anyway.

[@cgeorge6591]

I have thought that the reason that the Central American concept has been pushed by the scholars is that the church growth in central and South America was so fast and based on the premise that “your ancestors were the Nephites and Lamanites”that they dared not do an about face. I’m a convert of 48 years. I asked the missionaries why would the church say it happened in Central America but yet the plates were in NY. They didn’t have an answer. It didn’t matter because I already knew the Book of Mormon was the word of God when I called them to come teach me.

[@TheForgottenMan270]

We learn in Mormon 4:23 that the Lamanites were about to overthrow the land, so Mormon took up the records hidden in the hill Shim. Since that point Mormon kept the records even during the time of the Nephites retreat. That retreat began about ten years before the final battle. So realistically that is plenty of time for the records to be moved from central America to NY to be buried by Moroni. But we also need to remember that the final burial of the plates occurred in 421 AD while the final battle occurred in 385 AD.

[@dinocollins720]

Though I lean towards a central america mesoamerica limited model, I always love listening to Jonathan Neville and hearing his ideas! Very smart man!

[@jerry_phillips]

He keeps saying the meso-America crowd say that Joseph and Oliver were wrong. I don't think they would use that word. Mistaken would be a better term. I think people, even prophets, are allowed to have innocuous presumptions that turn out to be mistaken. Jonathan seems to be promoting an infallibility viewpoint that is not realistic.

[@doxdog]

The Meso-America scholarship unwittingly bent to pressure from Academia and Archeologists that always have said, there is no evidence of the kind of structures and population to validate the BOM claims. That isn’t true anymore. There is cosmology including the Hopewell airburst, comet effigy’s, peculiar earthworks and hundreds++ of sites. Evidence of widespread cataclysm and large populations. However the Yucatán peninsula is also underestimated in how developed it was. One thing is clear, that artifacts from both locations are showing that trade and travel is also something that we underestimate. We have a post modern psychosis and don’t understand what could be achieved in the given time that they had.

[@Neil-from-Oz]

Modern LDS scholars are moving away from literal belief in the Scriptures to a more symbolic representation which enables them to have a wider scope of expression. This expression can be seen in academics scoffing and negation of the more literal expression of Scripture by earlier General Authorities. I wonder where all this is heading and fully understand why our prophets are warning us about the need to depend on the Holy Ghost for truth and not man in the latter days. Thanks to 'Cwic' for allowing our minds to evaluate the conditions that are continually before us.

[@badesign9519]

Fantastic! All this rings so true to me and thanks to Johnathon Neville for remaining open but “just the facts mam” about it.

[@CwicShow]

Glad you enjoyed it.

[@juliebey8240]

Interesting…I have never quite heard of the Heartland model explained like this. I have been a believer of the Mesoamerican model with Dr Joseph Allen’s research and conclusions. I did graduate from BYU in 92. I am interested to learn more about the Heartland model and now have Between These Hills in my Amazon 🛒 cart 😉. I have a BS in Geography and a Master’s in History, HOWEVER, I still wholeheartedly believe and have a testimony of the B of M as another testament of Jesus Christ and that spiritual conversion is necessary and this “most correct book” is of infinite worth. 😊 Another great video and I am looking forward to part two.

[@CwicShow]

Thank you!

[@bheer98]

Julie, I've also been researching both sides of this. I'm from Southern Ohio and there is rich history and evidence there that supports the heartland model. I first heard about it when I was 15 and my bishop invited Rod Meldrum to give a late night presentation on this (and the USA in general) to members eager and willing to hear. I felt heartily convinced by his humble presentation and an innate desire for it to be true. I was called on my mission to Orem, Utah (Spanish speaking) and had the privilege to teach and minister with Dr. Joseph Allen and his son and daughter-in-law. They had a non-member friend come from Guatemala that finally accepted their invitation to learn from the missionaries, and the lot fell to me and my companion. I know that her conversion and baptism was a primary reason the Lord called me when and where he did, and I still have a great bond with the family. They are a beautiful family and Joseph's studies/argument for the Mesoamerican model piqued my interest. I'm still researching, but my heart lies with the Heartland model. However, I am willing to accept either (or both, if that's the case) and can't wait to go back and rewatch that history from God's perspective when the time comes.

[@juliebey8240]

@@bheer98 I still have Dr Allen’s book and even worked for him part time. Remember that huge beautiful 🗺️ map? I love it so much. I also served a Spanish speaking mission in Chile. In my opinion, both models and the evidences of are fascinating renderings or theories as we do not yet know the “truthfulness of all things”. I too am anxious to learn definitively of either model or another yet undiscovered model. Regardless, both models only serve to strengthen my testimony. The spiritual conversion and testimony that comes with the study if the B of M supersedes any theory that exist or may yet come to light. Glad to see we are like-minded. 👏😊🗺️📖

[@bheer98]

@@juliebey8240 I've got a copy of his book, too! And that map is very well done (I love visual depictions like that). The fact that we can even talk about the "where" with certainty that it was somewhere in Americas is a testament to how The Book of Mormon is what it is claimed to be.

[@bobwilkinson1217]

The name of the Mississippi River comes from the Indian words "River of Fish"-- and that is what Sidon means too.

[@avoice423]

But the river sidon flowed from South to north, Mississippi flowes south....

[@chuckdewitt-hn5ni]

@@avoice423 Time to do a little more research.

[@wardtwitchell4059]

The BoM talks about shores on east and west, I don't believe it talks about which way it flows.

[@bobwilkinson1217]

One fact that is very interesting is that 6000 years ago there was just one big lake 450 higher than the current lakes, or rather the land was 450 feet lower because of the great weight of the 1-2 mile thick ice sheet that covered the area. The land is currently moving up at least 1 inch per year, so it appears that the lakes are receding. 4000 years ago when the Jaredites arrived, the lakes were much higher, 4000 inches higher or more if you go by the 1 inch per year formula. @@wardtwitchell4059

[@jasonmears4393]

What an incredible podcast. I live in East Tennessee, and I'm blown away about his theory of the land of nephi being in Tennessee. I would love to hear more about the Chattanooga area. Is there more info about this you could share?

[@sarahpeacock9686]

Besides Jonathan, look into videos done by Wayne Mays.

[@ladyjade6446]

I keep being inspired to move to Chattanooga. Now I think it would be so interesting.

[@bobwilkinson1217]

Intellectuals can be so smart that they approach insanity.

[@jennyomalley9212]

Thanks, Greg! Love the Heartland model!

[@CwicShow]

Glad you like it!

[@ronpalmer2u]

I am 84 years of age and a former Baptist minister. When I initially read the Book of Mormon I felt it occurred in central America and the Great Lakes area. Messi America area did not make sense and I felt the best route to North America for Nephi would be the Atlantic. The Pacific is way to far. Anyway I am happy with middle America.

[@shoup_group]

We know that the Nephites kept the law of Moses. I find it hard to believe that God would lead his people to a land where the resources to do so wouldn’t be readily available to them. This includes the required animals, grains, and fruits. The Heartland model makes more sense in this regard.

[@ldsmusician]

I am 100% convinced about the Heartland location. I won't put it above my testimony of the gospel, but I am convinced. Sort of akin to my feelings about mainstream carbon dating accuracy and claims about dinosaurs - something is missing from those assertions, and I won't base my testimony of the gospel on what the truth about those topics is, but I do feel like the prevailing ideologies are a stumbling block for belief and that there is greater truth out there that would not present so many conflicts to our scriptural understanding of human history.

[@kevingarner1558]

I agree. There are some great organizations that have done a lot of scientific research that shows the validity of the Bible account of history. "Answers in Genesis", and "Is Genesis History" are a couple. They both have KZbin Channels that are great. They are Christian organizations. I wish our scholars were as willing to go against the philosophies of the world as these organizations are.

[@ldsmusician]

@@kevingarner1558 I am familiar with those and a few others. I feel like exploring archaeological, geological, and biological evidences are a great way to get young people especially more aware of the way truth has left its mark on this world. Some of these channels (I'm thinking especially of one you didn't mention) take the time to try to argue against our church's doctrines. I wish there was more I could present from our church's scholarship that I could direct people to without reservation.

[@kevingarner1558]

@@ldsmusician It is baffling, sad and discouraging that LDS scholars and professors for the most part have accepted the secular world view instead of researching these topics through the biblical world view.

[@ldsmusician]

@@kevingarner1558 agreed. I am grateful that my testimony of the gospel does not rely on the degree to which other church members are swayed by cultural winds, including interpolation of secular ideologies.

[@nathangreer8219]

I think the Heartland model answers a lot of questions. Is it true? Maybe? I, for one, can't wait to be surprised when we find out.

[@Hundmist]

Enjoyed the interview. Another great episode to consider would be to match Jonathan up with Wayne May and Rod Meldrum. Fascinating topic.

[@alict59]

I have a question about the hill Shiloh. Where is the reference that says Mosiah stopped there to get the Brass Plates? In the Book of Omni where the move to Zarahemla happens, it only says that "Zarahemla did rejoice exceedingly, because the Lord had sent the people of Mosiah with the plates of brass which contained the record of the Jews." (Omni verse 14)

[@CwicShow]

It comes from a second hand account from Martin Harris. Read , The Lost 116 Pages by Don Bradley.

[@ricmitchell]

Excellent episode! Great stuff.

[@CwicShow]

Thanks!

[@AmericanFire33]

King Mosiah doesn’t go a river journey to get Zarahemla. He goes up around and down. He probably made a big end run around Ohio through Pennsylvania and along the Great Lakes until he got near South Bend Indiana and down the Kankakee, the Illinois and onto the Mississippi to the Chain of Rocks across the river and into Zarahemla.

[@caseykaelin9430]

Very interesting video. I have never heard of fortification at Cumora. I would be interested in that subject.

[@finepix888]

Heber also visited the site after he joined the Church in April 1832. He wrote, "The hill Cumorah is a high hill for that country, and had the appearance of a fortification or entrenchment around it." When he was 14 years old, Kimball worked in his father's blacksmith shop in the Bloomfield area west of Canandaigua and east of Avon. His observations of the area are quoted in his biography, Life of Heber C. Kimball, on p. 25 (or p. 50, depending on the edition): "From the time Father Bosley located near Avon, he found and plowed up axes and irons, and had sufficient to make his mill irons, and had always abundance of iron on hand without purchasing. "In the towns of Bloomfield, Victor, Manchester, and in the regions round about, there were hills upon the tops of which were entrenchments and fortifications, and in them were human bones, axes, tomahawks, points of arrows, beads and pipes, which were frequently found; and it was a common occurrence in the country to plow up axes, which I have done many times myself. "I have visited the fortifications on the tops of those hills frequently, and the one near Bloomfield I have crossed hundreds of times, which is on the bluff of Honeyoye River, and the outlet of Honeyoye Lake.... "The hill Cumorah is a high hill for that country, and had the appearance of a fortification or entrenchment around it. In the State of New York, probably there are hundreds of these fortifications which are now visible, and I have seen them in many other parts of the United States." Heber's biographer, Elder Orson F. Whitney of the Quorum of the Twelve, commented "Readers of the Book of Mormon will remember that in this very region, according to that sacred record, the final battles were fought between the Nephites and Lamanites. At the hill Cumorah, the Nephites made their last stand prior to their utter extermination, A.D., 385. "Thus was Heber preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles, above the graves of the ancients of Israel, whose records with the fullness of that Gospel, and the relics of their prowess and civilization, were now 'whispering from the dust.'" archive.org/details/LifeOfHeberC.Kimball/page/n49/mode/2up?q=Cumorah

[@guygrooms5788]

If the hill in New York is Cumorah, what do we do with Mormon 6:6 "....therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah ALL the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, SAVE it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni"? This seems to say pretty clearly that the plates that are given to Moroni, and later added to by Moroni, that later become the Book of Mormon were the only records among the Nephite library that were not left in Cumorah. Moroni then spends many years traveling with the plates to preserve his life, presumably away from Cumorah the area taken over by the Lamanites. I think we should recognise that the hill in New York is the one hill we can definitively say is not the Cumorah where the last battle took place.

[@lyndavallen9070]

Fantastic presentation!! I look forward to more on this subject!

[@JonathanWillistheAmazing]

I find this stuff so fascinating

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

Great discussion! Subscribed!

[@jamesbarton7927]

Most of the geographical descriptors in the Book of Mormon occur before Christs coming when the whole face of the land was changed (3 Nephi 8:12). So to try and fit todays geography with the rivers, mountains, bodies of water, etc. as described in the B of M prior to Christs coming has a chance of being inaccurate. The only thing we know for certain is where the Gold Plates were found. Given the weight of gold as compared to the size of the plates as described by the witnesses, it would have been a very impressive feat of strength and endurance for the mortal Moroni to transport these thousands of miles to where they were deposited.

[@timothyosborn1697]

Great job! I've long been a Heartlander. It's hard for me to believe that Moroni would carry 60+ lbs of plates 3400 miles, or more just to put them into a hill in NY and then call it Cumorah. Makes no sense. Even looking at the architecture of the Mezzo-American Model doesn't match the architectureof what Lehi would have brought from Jerusalem. It seems more like the architecture from Burma, Thailand and India, (from what I can tell from my feeble mind.) I would rather believe Joseph Smith than I would believe others. Just my $0.02 worth.

[@markstimson983]

I took many courses in Mesoamerican history at CSUS 30 years ago. The evidence for the Book of Mormon was overwhelming and the questions from the students and comments from the professor were humorous to the only LDS person in the class. For example, when viewing some paintings showing red skinned people and people with white skin, the questioned was asked, I thought they were only one race? The professors answer was that there was only one race, but that royalty was presented with white skin. Hilarious answer if you have never seen someone with white skin. I’ve studied the Heartland model as well. I’ve also seen many presentations by Robert Sephr that deals with the anthropological history of the American Continent and how there is convincing evidence of regular contact between the old and new world. The idea that the entirety of the Book of Mormon took place solely in exclusively one place or the other seems to ignore so much evidence on either side. It also ignores human nature to expand to new lands. It makes no sense that the Nephites remained in such a small geographical area as the heartland model suggests. Even in this discussion, as the Nephites were hunted for years and fled from annihilation, of course they could end up on the Northern continent as these people inhabited the entirety of the American Continent North, central, and South. The Mesoamerican model has no conflicts whatsoever to the hill Cumorah being in New York. The evidence is that they expanded to the ends of the land mass - as people always do. Just look how far the US expanded in such a short time even with constraints of an inhabited land.

[@chapmanchaps]

Interesting points!

[@서수미-p1t]

Thank you for your comments. For an in-depth perspective around race, skin, blackness and whiteness in the BofM and other scriptures, you may enjoy writings and firesides by Marvin Perkins.

[@markstimson983]

@@서수미-p1t I’ll look into that. Thanks!

[@markstimson983]

@@서수미-p1t looked into it - way off.

[@PapaKryptoss]

Noooo we want to hear more. Great segment.

[@lukeslc-xd8ds]

I am not quite sure what to think about the Cwic fellow.

[@AmericanFire33]

You really need to move Zarahemla down to St Louis. For several reasons. 1. The chain of rocks are there. The Illinois and the Missouri River drain into the Mississippi are there. 3. It took 12 days to get from Helam to Zarahemla. If Alma and his people started at the Tennesssee river near Lake Nickajack and went over the mountains and down into the Cumberland River valley, Helam could be anywhere along the Cumberland river from Nashville to it’s mouth on the Ohio River and I believe you could get to St Louis in 12 days from there. It takes about 2 days to get to the Ohio river and 10 days to get to St Louis about 15 miles a day 10 days in a row.

[@joycegrover1146]

I thought John Solomon had Lehi landing on the pacific side ?

[@Drphil-bp5fb]

You should interview Wayne May

[@deyegeye]

From Ether 9:33 to Ether 10:19, a period spanning 100 years, poisonous serpents hemmed in the Jaredites so they could not go into the land southward. Poisonous serpents even here in northeast Texas are inactive for 4 months of the year. In order for the the poisonous serpents to be continuously active for 100 years the climate of the Jaradite time would have to be warm all year round. The Jaredites were in the land north of the Nephites.

[@lukesteele4510]

Does this guy not realize that Joseph made statments supporting both models? He was reportedly very excited about discoveries in Meso-America as support for the Book of Mormon, and there are also confirmatory statements about northern USA implying that there were Nephites there. Cumorah is the name we call the hill that Moroni buried the record, but that doesn't mean it is the same hill Mormon talked of. For me the Heartland model is faulty, even if there were Nephites all throughout the America's especially since there are recorded statments of mass migration in the narative. Yes there is a Cumorah in New York, but from my prespective it is not the Cumorah where the final battle took place either of the Nephites or the Jaredites. I don't think beyond somewhere in America that Joseph and Oliver knew where the narative took place. For me the Meso-American Model supported my own independant scholarship and growing up I thought all of North and South America were Nephite Lamaninte Lands with landmarks that were personally pointed out to me by my own father.

[@davus4242]

Luke, you have some good points. If they do know about Joseph's statements, they ignore or discount Joseph's published statements to sell books. If they don't know, then they are just ignorant about the information; I'm hoping it's the later of the two. For the readers, here's some additional information on the statements Joseph claimed in regard to Book of Mormon lands. The information is easily searchable. The Church's main focus and mission is to proclaim and teach the Gospel of Christ; BOM & Biblical geography are not topics the Church dwells on, thus many latter-day saints are unaware Joseph claimed and declared Zarahemla was in Central America; he even put it in writing and published it. If you're interested in historical facts, google - Times and Seasons October 1, 1842 Zarahemla. Joseph as Editor, along with his assistant editors, Apostles John Taylor & Wilford Woodruff (both of whom would become presidents of the Church), boldly declare as an "important fact" - Zarahemla was in Central America, in the land of Guatemala. To substantiate the claim and declaration, Joseph, being very familiar with the details of the BOM, quotes and rehearses Alma 22 describing the region where Zarahemla was. This is what Joseph felt and believed, and he printed it in the Church's Times and Seasons paper, there's no hearsay about it. The editors then went on to clarify, they weren't declaring an exact or specific city mentioned in an explorer's book, they had previously named and discussed in a previous edition of the T&S as the city of Zarahemla. They didn't feel impressed to declare that specific city Zarahemla, only that Zarahemla was somewhere in Central America. However, they (Joseph, John, & Wilford) are of the opinion that the previously named city, was a city of the Book of Mormon, just not Zarahemla. Read the T&S article for the details. Keep in mind, this secondary clarification of a specific city previously named as not being Zarahemla, does not dissolve the declared important fact, that Zarahemla was in Central America. The important fact of Zarahemla being in Central America (aka Mesoamerica) collaborates with the BOM narrative. To attempt to speculate this declaration away is futile. Also, know, in the same T&S Oct 1, 1842 edition, the editors (Joseph, John, & Wilford) refute the conspiring claims, suggesting Joseph had fled the area of Nauvoo. Truth is, Joseph was still in the area and still very much editor of what was printed in the T&S Oct 1, 1842; while at the same time avoiding false arrest of conspiring men. Read the full edition, Joseph was still around and still very much in charge, as represented & substantiated by the T&S article itself. So a very special thanks to the editors(Joseph, John, & Wilford), for documenting this conspiracy so long ago and clearing it up for future generations. Keep in mind, earlier that year 1842, when Joseph took over as editor of the T&S, he declared, and assured the readers, that he alone would be responsible for what was printed in the T&S while he was editor. Joseph was Editor until November 15, 1842, a full six weeks after the declaration that Zarahemla is in Central America; at which time Joseph steps aside as Editor and appoints John Taylor as the new Editor of the Times and Season. Logic and common sense dictate if John Taylor had published, the Zarahemla claim on his own, without Joseph's knowledge and consent, and if Joseph didn't agree with it; would Joseph have promoted John to Editor six weeks after such declaration; the thought makes reason stare. Further, "if" Joseph didn't oversee the publication of the October 1, 1842 edition, and he disagreed with the bold declaration, know this, Joseph would have had it retracted, as he assured his readers he was responsible; Joseph never had it retracted. Truth is, Joseph is the one who published it; Joseph was Editor and owns the declaration, Zarahemla is in Central America. Next, go to the Church's website and search - 'Book of Mormon Geography'. Notice, the church takes no stance on the exact location of BOM cities, because no exact locations have been revealed. However, in the same statement on the Church's website, the Church does acknowledge Joseph's beliefs on the subject, and further confirms and substantiates Joseph as Editor of the Times & Seasons in 1842 for the articles referring to Book of Mormon lands and Central America (aka Mesoamerica). Very interesting indeed. Kinda clears up any speculation. Joseph, states Zarahemla is in Central America, within the borders of Guatemala, as he would have known it on the maps of his day. For additional & interesting collaboration on what Joseph would have known Guatemala to be in his day, google - "map of Guatemala 1825" (or 1835, it doesn't matter) open a properly labeled map and notice Guatemala's borders back in Joseph's day extended as far north to include the Chiapas & Palenque areas of modern-day Mexico. Say what! A very interesting area indeed! Long before any scholar pronounce their own theory as to the location of the land of Zarahemla, Joseph had already declared it to be Central America. No scholars or theories needed to narrow down the general area, Joseph did it for us. All things considered, it all fits. With Zarahemla being in Central America, does the BOM narrative accommodate Joseph's claims of "walking the plains of the Nephites" and the Zelph stories in the "heartland"? Could both be accurate and plausible? Yes, in fact, these stories actually collaborate with the BOM narrative precisely with no contradiction. Alma 63 and Helaman 3:3-5,12-16 states many groups of Nephites left the land of Zarahemla & Bountiful and migrated to the north country, both by land and by sea. This also accounts for how a Zelph-type character and other descendants of converted Lamanites were in the northern country during the last struggles. Remember these Nephites departed FROM the lands of Zarahenla and Bountiful sailing across a sea. Also note, there is a sea, not just land, between Zarahemla and the land of a New Jerusalem in the north country. So yes, there are plains of Nephites in the heartland of the north country, There are no contradictions by Joseph, and no mental gymnastics are required. There are even statements in the BOM narrative that signal there was commerce trade happening between the Nephites in the land of Zarahemla/Bountiful and the migrant Nephites groups in the north country. It's all in the book. The book itself, says we will find evidence of Nephite cultures in the heartland of North America; only the evidence found is that of other Nephite groups that left the lands of Zarahemla & Bountiful where the prophets Nephi through Mormon dwelt, which is in Central America. No academics or scholars are needed to locate the region of the continent where the city of Zarahemla was; Joseph already took care of it in 1842; it's in Central America. After studying the Book of Mormon and all of Joseph's statements, I agree with Joseph; Zarahemla is somewhere in Central America, somewhere within the Guatemala borders as shown on the maps of 1825 or 1835 the latest published maps available when Joseph published the claim Zarahemla is in Central America on October 1. The Book of Mormon is another volume of scripture, that testifies of Jesus Christ and His gospel. That's the message of the Book, and it's true! Among the writings of that message, are descriptions of where and when it took place. I believe the Book of Mormon is correct and true. Best wishes to all in life's journey.

[@AmericanFire33]

The Nephites and Jaredites overlapped by a several hundred years. The people of Limhi that picked up the bones of Jaredites must have got in there just a few months, or a year or so after their last battles happened. Or they were in a low oxygen environment that protected them. Copper oxide is a good preservative. If they had a lot of copper armor on that might have preserved the bones a little longer.

[@donaldlatham7040]

yes, this is good stuff! may, gives some great clues, they really join together. the world was allot smaller when you go through the physical evidences. found a story about smelted copper found off the east coast of india. it was smelted, they dated it back 3 thousand years, the origin of the copper was the great lakes. the world is really small. there has been a great deal of work expended to keep this stuff out of sight. the bottom line is that anyone can find out the truth of these things, and it has always been the way to find out the truth of all things. seek it and you will find it. pres nelsen has said that we need to have the ability to get our truth this way. nice job greg!

[@keithsmith5998]

I love Jonathan Neville's account on the origins of the seer stones in the hat theory.

[@rawbfish9355]

When it talks about the sea. Where does he think the sea was?

[@fernandomorales6892]

I think it is not that important, I live in mesoamerica area and I dont care where it was Zarahemla, Hill Rama or Cumorah...just enjoy the Bookk of Mormon, it is true...and I love it.

[@flygirl4eva165]

PHD=Piled high and deep. But of course the scholars all know better.

[@oceancoast92657]

Food for thought.. In the space of one year, Lehi and co traveled from Jerusalem to Nahom..nearly 1000 miles. They then went nearly eastward from Nahom (for eight years.) Upon which they arrived at Bountiful.. This sounds more like they blazed the old silk road before it was known as such and arrived at the mouth of the Yangzee River , present day Shanghai. The Yangzee area would certainly qualify as bountiful, it would have been lush and have plenty of trees to build a boat. Then they sail across the pacific and land in Columbia. Traversing the Pacific from Yangzee delta is far more realistic than leaving from the end of the Arabian peninsula and having to navigate to the southern ocean avoiding land mass

[@CwicShow]

Hmmm

[@outsideview9052]

I really appreciate the topic . It is something that a lot of people want to better understand. However, I am very open to accepting that a church leader can say one thing and it only be his opinion and not fact. To say that just because Oliver Cowdery said the Hill Comorah was in New York doesnt prove it beyond any measure to me. The same would be said about the other theorys of where these Book of Mormon events took place. Thanks for having these topics discussed by people who know the evidence on both sides and are still very much convinced of the truthfulness of Joseph Smiths calling as a prophet.

[@jonathann3d]

It's true that although Oliver Cowdery said it was a fact, a lot of people disbelieve Oliver. This raises two questions. First, where do people draw the line on believing/disbelieving Oliver Cowdery? After all, he was the only witness other than Joseph regarding the restoration of the Priesthood, most of the translation of the Book of Mormon, the restoration of temple keys, etc. Some people reject everything Oliver said. Some accept everything he said. Others pick and choose according to what they want to believe. Second, why disregard/reject the abundant extrinsic evidence from Church history and relevant science that corroborates what Oliver said?

[@kevingarner1558]

@@jonathann3d Amen! Thankyou for all your work!

[@outsideview9052]

@@jonathann3d I am not disregarding any evidence or relevant science to prove what Oliver Cowery said was actually fact or just his opinion. My comment was more of a general statement directed at what Church leaders have said regarding various controversial topics and not just the one being discussed in this video. I will finish watching your interview and no doubt will learn some important facts and be better for it. I very much appreciate your scholarship and your point of view. However, generally speaking, I still dont feel the need to defend every Church leaders past statements which is what my original comment was all about. I actually think it is dangerous to feel like you have prove that the Church (and therefore it history) is true in order to somehow validate your testimony of God and Christ as taught by the Church. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge and insights with this audience.

[@shoup_group]

I really like the Heartland model. Much of it makes sense to me. The only doubt I have relates to the destruction described in 3 Nephi at the Savior’s cruxifixction. The MesoAmerican model seems to fit better there with its volcanoes and fault lines.

[@ED-wired]

What about The New Madrid Seismic Zone? 150 mile-long series of faults stretches under five states: Illinois, Missouri, Arkansas, Tennessee and Kentucky, and is responsible for four of the largest earthquakes in the history of the United States, which took place over three months from December 1811 and February 1812.

[@knelson3326]

There is some great evidence that the 3 Nephi destruction can occur without volcanic activity. I don’t have links ready but just keep that in mind as you continue to search.

[@shoup_group]

Thanks. My testimony doesn’t hinge on this. I listen and ponder and then file it away in the “interesting - confirmation pending” file and wait for the day when all things will be revealed. Also, check out the emerging area of Book of Mormon Geology - by Jerry Grover. Interesting stuff!

[@ED-wired]

@@shoup_group will do! Thanks! I wasn’t arguing, just considering. It will be awesome to have all the facts about this someday

[@fiddlermom9629]

The destructions that came prior to Christ’s coming mention whirlwinds, along with the thick darkness. When you read accounts of those New Madrid earthquakes, the dirt thrown up into the sky made the day go dark. If it was the New Madrid fault, it could have been even bigger than the ones witnessed 2 centuries ago. Also, whirlwinds (tornadoes) are almost never known to happen in mesoAmerica. Yet, the US is the tornado capital of the world!

[@TheBensMeister]

I'm 100% a heartland. No doubt. But *if it is Meso, no big deal the BoM is real and is what it claims to be.

[@redfightblue]

What if it's somewhere else? No big deal to you?

[@TheBensMeister]

@@redfightblue I think that's implied by my comment. But since you asjed and to be clear, anywhere else in the world...no big deal. Shocking, but that's the extent.

[@redfightblue]

@@TheBensMeister Cool, that's an unusual position because if it didn't happen in a place that could be interpreted as the "Americas" then you would be going against Joseph Smith. I agree with you. The Book of Mormon is real. I disagree with you on not caring about where it happened. My belief in the Book of Mormon exploded once I found out where it happened and who wrote it.

[@bobwilkinson1217]

When Mormon retreated to the Cumorah area he would have sent family members -- a remnant to escape via the St Lawrence Seaway. It is postulated that this remnant sailed across the Atlantic and landed in the British Isles. Joseph Smith could come from an ancestrial line from the Nephites.

[@bobwilkinson1217]

@@anthonyrippa686 You have no need to speculate at all on that idea. I actually have one ancestral line that goes back through royalty to Germany, Ukraine, and finally Assyria. This small little branch of my tree goes back over 2300 years to about 325 BC.

[@deannawendt146]

You didn’t come back to WHY the prophet and church authorities now don’t talk about this subject or even refer to it.

[@JaredMcDougall]

If you read Mormon 6:6 the book of mormon plates were the only ones NOT put in the hill Camorah. They were taken somewhere else and deposited years later

[@allenchildvideos7608]

The Jaredites are the Olmec group are in Mesoamerica. There fore the the Hill Cumorah is the same hill that bothe groups had their battles.

[@jeffwhipple2658]

The Heartland model supposes that the Adena people were the Jaredites. Check out Wayne May's videos on this. Very interesting.

[@jeffgalloway7134]

Who defined that the Olmecs were the Jaredites? This is backward reasoning. Someone thought that the archeological timelines match the ones in the Book of Mormon and so proposed that Jaredites were the Olmecs. That can't then be used as a fact of where the Jaredites were.

[@calblue95482]

The final nail in the coffin of the South and Central American Cumorah theory was DNA!

[@lukeslc-xd8ds]

Concerning Neville's comments about those killed at Cumorah.......maybe.

[@walterzagieboylo6802]

It's great to be loyal to the founders, but the Prophet and Oliver were both mistaken about things when not speaking in the name of the Lord. A prophet or a counselor is not perfect. Nevertheless, I'd go along except for the time in the Book of Mormon when many people moved to the lands of the North and populated the whole land and from there went in boats and did not return. Are you thinking they went to what is now Canada?

[@BrianTerrill]

The River Sidon flows north east not south as the Mississippi does. Those facts get ignored by heartlanders and many other things

[@tomasina10]

I haven’t really been interested one way or another where the BOM occurred , which as a lifelong teacher/ student of history might be unusual , BUT I can NOT accept Joseph and Oliver lied . Oliver has always been of particular interest to me and I have studied and thought about him . My husbands grgrgrandfather Orson Hyde was who baptized him when he returned . How do you call Joseph and Oliver “prophets and seers “ and say they lied ? None of this makes sense ? I can easily accept the heartland theory and the archeological evidence or lack there of .

[@susannaholdfield7499]

Yes from this Australian for the Heartland model. What arrogance from the academics for labelling us so derogatively!!

[@ladyjade6446]

Heartland makes the most sense to me. Very interesting.

[@cindlou7335]

Nowhere in the Book of Mormon does it mention anyone bundling up for the wars. BRRRRRRR.... loincloths! Not to mention all the cities and fortifications they are currently finding in meso America via lidar. So, I think I'm still unsure about it all. But criticism of one side from another does not sit easy with me.

[@jvhill1782]

I get what you’re saying, but wars in ancient times were more often than not dictated by the season. Wars were fought during the warmer months. The warmer months were the fighting season.

[@jeffwhipple2658]

Heartland model works because it relates to the Hopewell (Nephites) and Adena (Jaredites) civilizations. Manifest Destiny wiped out much of the evidences of these people because Native Americans needed to be painted as savages, never having any civilization. It is now known that there were millions of mounds all over Eastern United States which would be the basis for the cities. If you dig into the Heartland model, you will find that it fits better than the Meso Model. A few things to study: Promised Land (where is it and what does that mean) and can you truly live the Law of Moses in Central America, where there are almost no evidences of the animals and plants needed but, all of them have been found in the USA.

[@karisamullen4279]

Climate was much warmer then.

[@cindlou7335]

@@karisamullen4279 What???? why!

[@thomasfurlano4461]

Manchester County New York

[@douglaslee4489]

Over the years, I've considered this question of where the events of the Book of Mormon took place. It is my personal opinion that the land of North America today isn't the same as it was during the Jaredite and Nephite times. I say that, because in the Book of Ether, it talks about how poisonous snakes cut off for a time, the land northward from the land southward, at the narrow neck of land. When the poisonous snakes were destroyed, the Jaredites inhabited the northern land and kept the southern land to hunt game. It also states that the northern land was covered with buildings. Then during the final battles of the Jaredites, Coriantumr mourns because 3 millions of his people had been killed. So maybe there was a total of 7 to 10 millions of Jaredites at the time. If North America is the same size today as it was back in those days, and the land was covered with buildings, there should have been between 100 to 150 millions or more of Jaredites. Instead, I believe that much of North America was under water, in other words, the ocean--- that Central America was not the narrow neck of land between the Nephites and the Lamanites. And perhaps ancient Zarahemla really was across the Mississippi River from Nauvoo Illinois. It is plausible, but the land back then had to be on a much smaller scale than North America today and maybe South America didn't play a part in those ancient happenings. This is my 2 cents worth; my opinion only.

[@sendlazarus430]

Thanks, Greg! We need more content showing evidences of the historicity of the BOM to stand up to the claims it is not scripture.

[@evelyntaylor742]

Greg, on MM you mentioned 82% of Millennials are leaving The Church. Do you recall the source of that statistic and was that stat specific to The Church or was it relation to Christianity in general?

[@CwicShow]

Specific to the church. It is the most common number between a large YSA survey and my own survey among a dozen YSA Bishops. You see inklings of this already starting in the Pew Religion Survey in 2014 then in Jana Reis’ book in 2019. The trend start showing there.

[@evelyntaylor742]

@@CwicShow Thanks for the insight. I am deeply concerned by that stat. I think we all have observed it occurring but had no idea of the magnitude. What makes it most alarming is this is the generation which will give rise to the next generation within The Church. If we lose them at that rate, it's catastrophic for the future of The Church. Do you know approximately when this YSA survey you referenced was conducted and if can be found online?

[@CwicShow]

@@evelyntaylor742 The study is private and was done for the church. I believe it was conducted in 2021.

[@evelyntaylor742]

@@CwicShow Thanks Greg. The issue led me to your video "Dinner with Millennials: Why Some Millennials Might Be Leaving The Church". Absolutely, loved that video but couldn't find the Part 2 referenced at the end.

[@philskousen8574]

Uhhh...2 flaws to the heartland theory: no mention of winter ever. Also, the Hill Cumorah is such an insignificant hill...yet thousands fought and died there? Ridiculous. I've been to Southern Mexico and Guatemala. So many commonalities with the Book of Mormon. Read Joseph Allen's inspired books.

[@todds9449]

Have you seen any of Wayne May’s videos?

[@CwicShow]

No.

[@redfightblue]

Once you place The BoM in the Old World a lot of things start to make sense. The River Sidon takes it's name from Sudan. The Land of Zarahemla takes its name from Sahara (often spelled Zahara). Hagoth the explorer is Hanno. And, of course, the sacred hill in the North, Cumorah, is obviously Moriah. I can list 100 more.

[@Heartsinmelody]

You forgot to push back on Johnathan on his claim that church leaders all agree the hill in New York is the hill cumorah.

[@caguas97]

I'm a subscriber to the Heartland model. Wayne May convinced me. I can't wait to listen to this podcast... it wouldn't load for me in the car for some reason.

[@confusedwhynot]

I think when you question Joseph Smith's position; you call into question the validity of the whole gospel and The Book of Mormon.

[@tazdelp1248]

Neville is a rockstar! Wealth of knowledge. Great interview. Thanks Greg!

[@jeffreya.faulkner8367]

He's a crackpot.

[@CwicShow]

Thank you

[@raylewis238]

I've read several books and watched many videos lately on the geography of the book of Mormon. By the end, this is what I figured out. It was this country that was founded to have the restoration possible. No other country in the Americas could have supported that.

[@davidhocking9085]

The Prophet Joseph Smith’s statement that they were, “wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity,” then through revelation that “Zelph … was a warrior and a Chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus,” is providing essential physical evidence that the Nephites and the Lamanites resided in America’s Heartland. That physical evidence, combined with a spiritual testimony, transforms one’s faith into a perfect sure knowledge. Jesus did the same after His resurrection when He invites those to feel the prints in His hands and feet, etc. Gaining a physical body makes us complete - having only a spiritual body is not part of the Plan of Salvation. In like manner a physical witness that the Nephites were in North America is being solidified by the Prophet Joseph. Those in the Zion's Camp already had a spiritual witness. Joseph was then providing them with physical evidence that the Book of Mormon is true and that the people actually lived where they were "roving."

[@cameronreed1411]

It always made more sense to me that the BoM began in central America and as the Nephites migrated northward they settled parts of North America. I think most members can agree that the hill Cumorah in NY is the same hill that was spoken of by Moroni because that's where the plates were found.

[@canigetawhatwhat]

Highly recommend reaching out to Wayne May.

[@jeffwhipple2658]

Yes Please!

[@AmericanFire33]

He is not good with details. He is kinda hung up on things that don’t matter that much.

[@UtahKent]

May is interested in $selling$...