Did Joseph Smith use a rock in a hat?

[@brittanyjenkins7094]

When people say I was taught about the stone in a hat it feels sort of like they don’t believe us who weren’t. I was raised in the church, went to BYU, mission to Argentina, married in the temple. I heard about the stone in the hat from South Park just five years ago. I feel so seen and heard by watching this. Thank you so much for making this video❤

[@sarahpinho1114]

Same here and also served in Argentina 😁

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

The South Park episode was from 2004. I was told it anti-Mormon rhetoric by local church leaders. Now we know the truth.

[@zacace]

Hi! About 15 years ago, I wrote my undergraduate senior seminar paper on Joseph Smith and LDS origins and beliefs and the stone in the hat account comes from Joseph Smith's mother's account of the church and its history.

[@woodystube1000]

Her writings do work to confirm JS's use of "seer stones", but it is also well documented by numerous contemporary sources. The church even has possession of one of his stones, and tere is a picture of it on the web site. I do not know who exactly first wrote about JS's use of such a stone, but it was during his treasure-digging youth, long before there was any claim of golden plates.

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

RFM taught about the top hat and seer stone method of translation when he was gospel doctrine teacher. That was in 2010. He said later you could hear a pin drop in class it was that quiet. Many had never heard of the top hat theory and others called it "anti". He was released from the calling shortly after.

[@blazedell7561]

I too crossed all the boxes, studied the gospel, and then found out thru South Park about the stone in the hat

[@daniellee3059]

All art goes through a rigorous review process by the correlation committee. I've known 2 artists who work/ed for the church and nothing goes into publication or is publicly displayed without being carefully reviewed and often sent back for changes.

[@3thingsfishing427]

Magic rocks and secret handshakes

[@R_Madoff_Nelson]

don't forget the magic underwear

[@lazylearner967]

I stopped attending 2 years ago. I never once heard ANY reference to the rock in a hat within any church setting or church experience. But they will continue to blame me and call me a "Lazy Learner" that I didn't do or study enough. Glad to be out and start to somewhat take back my life. Great video, and I enjoy your content. Keep up the outstanding work!

[@lazylearner967]

@@richbarney4281 I am curious what things I am nitpicking? From my viewpoint the LDS church has hidden so many things. What opened my mind the most was my time as a high councilor. So much cover up, misrepresentation and gaslighting. I can’t trust the top leaders of the LDS church anymore. Every anti-Mormon lie I heard on my mission turned out to be true as the church slowly published the essays. My world and paradigm has been turned upside down.

[@Ralph419]

I first learned of the rock in the hat from a publisher called Modern Microfilm Co. The book was called Mormonism Shadow or Reality. I didn't learn this from church. I was told by church members and leaders that the rock in the hat was an anti-Mormon lie, that Jerald and Sandra Tanner were apostates and to have nothing to do with them and to avoid reading anything they published. That was in the 1960s and early 70s. Now the LDS essay titled Book of Mormon Translation admits the very things I had been told were lies and to not read about.

[@lazylearner967]

@@Ralph419 the “truth” changes? Or in other words the LDS church lied to it’s members and the world.

[@R_Madoff_Nelson]

@@richbarney4281 There are no excuses for the lies of the Mormon leadership.

[@calebhermann]

This was a fantastic video. Probably took a lot of effort, but I am considering sharing this video with TBM family it was so straightforward and to the point.

[@joetaylor8687]

You don't need no stinkin' engraved plates at all . . . as long as you have a nice hat and an unusual rock to put in it.

[@gregstewart7288]

I imagine it kinda stunk in that sweaty old hat. I’d prefer the transparent urim and thummim, myself. I think it makes for a better story, too. Besides, how’s he supposed to learn to translate ancient Egyptian if he isn’t comparing the symbols to their English equivalent?

[@craiglaw7578]

Was there also a Cat in that Hat? No wonder the church tried to cover this up!

[@Jsppydays]

Excellent video. Thank you.

[@TheSaintelias]

I’ve been in the church all my life. Much older than you. Not once was I ever taught about a stone. As a missionary we never mentioned a stone. Teaching about the stone is a modern creation, like the BoM.

[@SteveSmith-os5bs]

I went on my mission from 78 to 80 to the Michigan Lansing Misson. As missionaries, we did not know about the stone in the hat. It was not really common knowledge back then. We would show investigators a flip chart picture of Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon directly from the gold plates.

[@nickdipaolofan5948]

This is like if you are married to your husband for 30 years and one day you find out that he was married for a short time before you and had a child all those years but he never told you about it. So when you confront him, he says something like, "I never told you I wasn't married before and I never told you that I had a child. The information was out there (you could have searched the county clerk records to see if I had a marriage/divorce certificate) but you were just a lazy learner and never looked into it." This is infuriating to most of us members because the church leadership is acting like they were not hiding this information, yet I remember being told on my mission that the rock in the story was just anti mormon lies attempting to discredit Joseph. Also, it is CLEAR that they were aware of the several first hand accounts from Joseph and his scribes (including Emma) that the rock in the hat method was the predominate (if not only) method they witnessed. So for them to omit this in ALL of the church manuals I grew up with HAD to be intentional whitewashing of this piece of history. They are only coming out with the rock in the hat method because they can no longer deny it now that the several first hand accounts have become public knowledge. So, just like the husband, the church leaders are trying to act like they didn't deceive us, but they clearly put effort into NOT providing this information that is CENTRAL to our belief system. Many would not believe if they knew this, just like the wife may not have married the guy had she known he had a child and prior marriage.

[@stephanl6279]

When you claim monopoly on the truth and have an apparent spokesperson for god then hiding facts just doesn't look good. Having joe sit next to plates when he had his nose in a stinky hat is fraud. The mormon church just says things aren't as they are. Many members and even former members will buy it. This is nothing but a trick and can be played against them the same way they played it against us. You are free to deny their reality. You are free to shame them for being so beguiled into believing this trash. DNA has disproved their claims. Call anybody that hears the problems with the mormon cult and still believes a pervert. Any fan of a guy who at 37 was helping himself to little 14 year old girls is a pervert. Russell M9adoff) Nelson the fraud and pervert.

[@EvolvePeaceLove]

80s compared to 2020s church much different what is taught.

[@rosemariebennett7213]

Convert of over 45 years. Never heard of a stone and a hat !

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

You were not crazy. The church taught the old method of translation with glasses and breastplate. There is a recent video with Nelson talking about the top hat and seer stone. Total gaslighting. In fact at one time people were excommunicated for proclaiming publicly the top hat and seer stone method. The artist depictions in children's books, seminary, institute, teacher's manuals all showed the old method with plates present. The new narrative from the church is the plates were often wrapped in a burlap bag during translation. Sometimes the plates were not in the same room as JS an the scribe.

[@masterbulgokov]

I'm 51 years old. The "stone in a hat" idea was only EXTERNAL information and regarded as sacrilege. Today, I'm actually (a) surprised the Church is teaching it, (b) SUPER surprised that Mormons aren't leaving in droves over it, and (c) apparently regard it as not especially more ridiculous than the here-there-everywhere-nowhere Urim and Thummim(s).

[@redfightblue]

Joseph Smith was using a Camera Obscura.

[@Stittsy1963]

I know this was done over a year ago, but it's still a fresh topic. The first time I heard Joseph Smith used a hat and a Seer stone to translate was on my mission in 1986 during a Visa delay to Brazil. I spent three months in South Carolina and came upon a man while going door to door. We talked and he stated he heard about the Seer Stone translation process. I told him that was the first time I had ever heard of it. After the big internet explosion in the 90's the Church had to back track a bit when they allowed members and non-members access to their archives. Truths about the Mountain Meadow Massacre, The real reason why Joseph Smith was in Carthage jail, and the Hat with the Seer Stone Book of Mormon translation procedure came out. The Ensign published a talk by Russell M. Nelson in July of 1993 where he spoke about the stone and hat translation process. This has been on of the first modern articles of the Church to admit Joseph used a hat and Seer Stone to translate. I wonder why the Stake and Ward buildings don't have a mural of Joseph Smith Jr. translating the Book of Mormon with his head stuck inside a hat? Image is everything!

[@chemnitzfan654]

"While the statement has been made by some writers that the Prophet Joseph Smith used a seer stone part of the time in his translating of the record, and information points to the fact that he did have in his possession such a stone, yet there is no authentic statement in the history of the Church which states that the use of such a stone was made in that translation. The information is all hearsay, and personally, I do not believe that this stone was used for this purpose. The reason I give for this conclusion is found in the statement of the Lord to the Brother of Jared as recorded in Ether 3:22-24. “These stones, the Urim and Thummim which were given to the Brother of Jared, were preserved for this very purpose of translating the record, both of the Jaredites and the Nephites. Then again the Prophet was impressed by Moroni with the fact that these stones were given for that very purpose. It hardly seems reasonable to suppose that the Prophet would substitute something evidently inferior under these circumstances. It may have been so, but it is so easy for a story of this kind to be circulated due to the fact that the Prophet did possess a seer stone, which he may have used for some other purposes” (President Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 3:225-226). Isn't it odd that one of the Presidents of the church either, lied about the seer stone, or thought it was so dumb he called its use "inferior." 😂

[@marthell6159]

Thanks for clarifying about the stones. Still, Mormon teachings are really bizarre.

[@adamholloway7963]

References to JS’s seer stone mentioned in LDS sources during my lifetime that I have found: 1974 - (A Peaceful Heart, The Friend, September 1974) Says, “Joseph found with the gold plates ‘a curious instrument which the ancients called Urim and Thummim, which consisted of two transparent stones set in a rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate.’ Joseph also used an egg-shaped, brown rock for translating called a seer stone.” No mention of placing the seer stone in a hat to block out extraneous light. (I was too young to read when this was published) 1977- (Richard Lloyd Anderson, By the Gift and Power of God, Ensign, September 1977) Anderson distinguishes between the “seer stone” and “Urim and Thummim”, refutes the claim that Joseph Smith used a seer stone to translate the BofM, refutes the claim that the BofM was translated by God revealing the translation directly to Joseph through the seer stone, and instead insists that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim, or Nephite spectacles, given to him by Moroni to translate the BofM, that Joseph specifically used the gold plates in the translation process, and that Joseph studied out the Reformed Egyptian characters on the gold plates as an essential part of the translation process. 1991- (Joseph Fielding McConkie & Robert L. Millet, Great Doctrines of the Book of Mormon, 1991 as quoted on TRANSLATION PROCESS - Mormon Stories) Two Latter-day Saint scholars refute the claim that Joseph used a seer stone to help him translate the Book of Mormon. 1993- (Russel M. Nelson, A Treasured Testament, Ensign, July 1993) Russel M. Nelson mentions the Urim and Thummim by quoting JS-H 1:34-35 and mentions the seer stone by quoting David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Missouri, 1883. p. 12. The JS-H 1:34-35 quote states that, “God had prepared [the Urim and Thummim] for the purpose of translating the [BofM]”; therefore explicitly linking the purpose of the Urim and Thummim with the translation of the BofM. Nelson says, “The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights” He then quotes David Whitmer’s account of Joseph using the seer stone in a hat. At best, this could be interpreted as an implicit endorsement that the seer stone in the hat was at least part of the translation process but Nelson never explicitly makes that claim and instead leaves the full translation process in ambiguity after explicitly linking the purpose of the Urim and Thummim with the translation of the BofM. 1997- (Neal A. Maxwell, By the Gift and Power of God, Ensign January 1997) Neal A. Maxwell mentions the seer stone once by quoting Martin Harris and mentions the Urim and Thummim three times including once by quoting Oliver Cowdery and once by referencing Orson Pratt. Maxwell does not fully endorse the use of the Urim and Thummim or the seer stone in the translation process but says things like, “If these reports are accurate...”, “If by means of these divine instrumentalities…”, and “If Martin is accurately quoted…”, thus leaving doubt as to the actual method of translation. He also says, “Why do we not have more disclosure concerning the process of translation of the Book of Mormon? Perhaps the full process was not disclosed because we would not be ready to understand it, even if given.” Maxwell does not mention the seer stone being placed in a hat to block out extraneous light, leaves the actual translation process in ambiguity, and does not explicitly claim the seer stone was used at all to translate the BofM. 2000- (Joseph Fielding McConkie & Craig Ostler, Revelations of the Restoration, 2000, p. 89-98) Two Latter-day Saint scholars refute the claim that Joseph used a seer stone to help him translate the Book of Mormon. 2002- (Joseph Smith, The Wentworth Letter, Ensign, July, 2002) The Wentworth letter, written by Joseph Smith and originally published in 1842, was reprinted in the Ensign in 2002. Joseph, speaking about the gold plates, says, “With the records was found a curious instrument, which the ancients called ‘Urim and Thummim,’ which consisted of two transparent stones set in the rims of a bow fastened to a breastplate. Through the medium of the Urim and Thummim I translated the record by the gift and power of God.” This is, once again, explicitly linking the “‘Urim and Thummim,’ which consisted of two transparent stones set in the rims of a bow fastened to a breastplate” with the translation of the BofM. There is no mention of a seer stone let alone a seer stone being placed in a hat to block out extraneous light as part of the translation process. 2013- (Gospel Topics Essays: Book of Mormon Translation, originally posted on the LDS Church’s official website December 30, 2013) In this essay, the Church says, “the scribes and others who observed the translation left numerous accounts that give insight into the process...According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument.” This is the first time, that I am aware of, that the church explicitly claimed that Joseph used the seer stone in a hat to produce the BofM. 2015- Joseph the Seer, Ensign, October 2015 The brown egg shaped “seer stone” the church currently claims JS used to translate the BofM is photographed and published for the first time. This article is not clear how much the brown seer stone was used in the BofM “translation” compared to the Urim and Thummim. Also, nowhere does the article’s tone leave the impression that the brown seer stone was mostly, if not exclusively, used. The article even reiterates that the Urim and Thummim, or Nephite interpreters, were protected and handed down from generation to generation for the specific purpose of translating the gold plates, not the brown seer stone. The article also attempts to conflate references to the Urim and Thummim with references to the brown seer stone making it seem like it could have been the “Urim and Thummim” or Nephite “interpreters” that were used to translate the BofM and not the brown seer stone even though both of these “devices” are completely different and have different histories. A reasonable interpretation of this article would not lead someone to the conclusion that the brown seer stone, and not the Urim and Thummim, was the primary, if not exclusive, instrument used by Joseph to produce the BofM, especially when the church has taught for more than 170 years that Joseph used the “Urim and Thummim” or Nephite “interpreters” to produce the BofM and many LDS leaders are on record denying that Joseph used a seer stone at all to produce the BofM. The following LDS sources also refute the claim that Joseph Smith used a seer stone and most insist that he used the Urim and Thummim that he received from Moroni for the purpose of translating the gold plates: The Improvement Era, October 1939, p. 596-597 & 630-632 & Hugh Nibley, No Ma’am, That’s Not History, 1946, p. 4 & Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1954, vol 1, p. 122 & Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1956, vol 3 p. 582, 587-588 & Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1958, p. 93, 631-632, 740-741 & John A. Widtsoe, What Manner of Boy and Youth Was Joseph Smith?, The Improvement Era, August 1946, p. 543

[@hourofprayer2960]

I remember those books we had them too brings back memories

[@fal8712]

I read about the seer stone and the hat in the Liahona, I think It 2as published on 2016 and of course It was weird becuse I have never hear about that, it is not something that they tech you. I think they tried to t the Lihona, nyway it doesn't have too much imoact

[@bryancsimmons]

Nice job!! .......I can smell those books,,😂

[@whizwhitney]

Please, please, please stop the constant background “music.“

[@analyzingmormonism]

Yes, these are old videos. In my newer ones the music is gone. Thank you!

[@archangel_one]

All the prophets of God wrote the Holy Bible, led by the Spirit of the Lord. Joseph Smith used a rock...in a hat. I suppose it's better than using a cat in the hat. However, I suspect that he was doing it completely wrong. I'm also wondering if it might be a Napoleon Bonaparte hat.

[@johnrowley310]

I won't be fooled again...

[@John-l6u9d]

LDS are some of the nicest folks ever. I find that their religion to be full of chidish things. Reminds me of a clubhouse when I was a kid.

[@MrGenejudson]

UR D Best😂❤❤

[@NOSchild]

I found a stone stone in a hat, under the book of mormon between the pages of salt lake Jesus.

[@lincolnstewart1725]

It seems to me, from the presentation of sources here, that mostly the church focuses on the “gift and power of God” as the means by which the Book of Mormon came about. Use of accessories such as the seer stone, or the urim and thummim don’t conflict with that concept.

[@advocate7643]

The photos conflict

[@lincolnstewart1725]

@@advocate7643 The artistic representations of Joseph translating the plates merely show a preference of representation. Such a preference does not conflict with the concept of divine aid in getting information off of the plates.

[@advocate7643]

@@lincolnstewart1725 mental gymnastics gold medalist

[@Ralph419]

Neither does the use of the seer stone conflict with the manner in which he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, and his hat over is face, while the plates were at the same time in the woods.

[@Ralph419]

@@lincolnstewart1725 God had prepared the Urim and Thummim for the purpose of translating the book. It was buried with the plates, kept safely hidden in the earth from 421 AD to the 1820s. But it was not necessary because Joseph simply used his money-digging stone.

[@NOSchild]

These people are Daffy....Cococo

[@jameseldridge4185]

Yes. He did.

[@MortimerJones99]

They definitely used to tell the stones in the hat story when I was a kid in the church

[@ballardfx1140]

Joeseph never used a stone in a hat to translate the plates. When he was asked to give an example in front of a group of people that was public, he used the stone in the hat as an example, he wasn’t allowed to show the plates or the spectacles.

[@craiglaw7578]

He wasn’t allowed because the plates were imaginary! Just like the restoration of the priesthood…we have to believe everything. No, other evidence! Remember, brother Joseph was using this sear stone trick to scam people for what amounts to pennies …if those plates were real! Selling it [or them] as an ancient artifact or just raw gold would’ve been an overwhelming temptation!

[@sarahpinho1114]

That's wierd because I saw a presentation by Nelson showing and describing how JS used a hat to translate the BOM..

[@Stittsy1963]

@@sarahpinho1114 Yes, Ensign July 1993 is where one can find that talk, "A Treasured Testament".

[@TheShodan92]

So you're denying the church leaders and the official history. Newsflash!.. The leaders have flip flopped on the peepstone in a hat thing and now admit it happened. For decades the leaders have tried to hide this fact but somehow it managed to worm it's way into the light. Truth has that uncanny ability to do that when deceivers have tried desperately to hide it from everyone.

[@smallhelmonabigship3524]

I am not sure yet what your motives are. A couple of months back I was seriously questioning whether Joseph Smith ever used a seer stone. So I looked long and hard for evidence from early writings in the Church, as the modern stuff seems tainted with forgeries, most notably from the Mark Hofmann era. I found a reference to a Millennial Star quote made by I believe Brigham Young describing the use of a Seer Stone. Fawn Brodie used that quote in her book "No Man knows my History" a horribly written highly prejudiced book, imagining conclusions based on the flimsiest of evidence. I do not have the quote nor do I care to look it up again, but it is in there. From what I understand Joseph Smith did not use a seer stone to translate the book of Mormon, but he used the Urim and Thummin. Which he had to return when he returned the plates. The seer stone would have been used later.

[@dr33776]

"[H]e used a stone called a “Seers stone,” the “Interpreters” having been taken away from him because of transgression. The “Interpreters” were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a “Seers stone” which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English." - David Whitmer

[@bipolarrambling242]

Are you a member of the church? The leaders now say that he did use it for the Book of Mormon.

[@smallhelmonabigship3524]

@@bipolarrambling242 The leaders now say a lot of things that are not true. Follow the leader is the most unbiblical, unscriptural thing a person can do. You are commanded to follow the word of God, not follow the leader. To learn the truth so the truth will set you free. You are told that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. In the Bible, the people of Israel cast their children into the fires because their leaders told them to. They rejected the prophets because their leaders told them to. They even rejected their Messiah because the high priests of Jerusalem told them to.

[@bipolarrambling242]

Are you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? What do you think the motive would be for the leaders to teach something that is not only untrue, but also damaging to many people's testimony's?

[@smallhelmonabigship3524]

@@bipolarrambling242 The Church was always against abortion and was pro life up until the Roe vs. Wade decision in 1973. They then made a public announcement that they would accept abortion under certain mostly eugenics reasons. Pretty much the entire membership went along with it gladly because they have been mentally conditioned to not think, only to follow the leader, like the Israelites of old did. It doesn't get any worse than that. So what do you think of that? Are we any better than them?