Did Oliver Cowdery actually see the golden plates? Ep. 63

In this episode, Dave talks about one of the “three witnesses” of the Book of Mormon, Oliver Cowdery. Like the other witnesses, Cowdery claimed to have seen with his own eyes the ancient Book of Mormon record, which was presented to him by an angel of God. Dave gives a brief synopsis of Cowdery’s life and talks about how Cowdery stuck to his testimony throughout his entire life. He also discusses some of the ways critics attempt to impeach Cowdery’s character or cast doubt on the validity of his testimony. Ultimately, everyone must decide whether Cowdery and the many other formal and informal witnesses were telling the truth, or not. (*The Book of Mormon is regarded as sacred text by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, often called the Mormon Church.)
Transcript of this episode on our website: bit.ly/36EIBDc
From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism: bit.ly/2LhS0sP
More on Oliver’s divining rod: bit.ly/2RhLLZU
An interesting article on dowsing from Popular Mechanics: bit.ly/2DHFL4z
Oliver’s bio from the Church’s website: bit.ly/34KjONX
Oliver’s bio on JosephSmithPapers.org: bit.ly/38KRDQI
Information about Oliver’s genealogy: bit.ly/2OKRjKr
Statements from/about Oliver Cowdery: bit.ly/33MtsOV
Meeting minutes from Oliver’s excommunication: bit.ly/2t2XRw6
Oliver Cowdery’s Vermont Years and the Origins of Mormonism: bit.ly/2RrjZu1
Folk Magic & Myth: Braucherei: bit.ly/2Lniau8
Is this segment scripted? Yes! Here’s why: bit.ly/2Gf3pIS
Watch more Faith and Beliefs videos: bit.ly/2BlOxEB
Chat with Dave on Facebook: bit.ly/2QQ0HKR
SUBSCRIBE:
saintsunscripted/subscribe
Follow Us:
Facebook: / saintsunscripted
Instagram: / saintsunscripted
Twitter: / saintsunscript
Follow the Hosts:
Kwaku: / kwakuel
Justin: / motioncoaster
Mimi: / mimi.bascom
David: / davidesnell
The Sunday Pews (by David): / thesundaypews

[@Leowinegar]

Really like this video guys! Thanks!

[@jesbinjain2085]

high quality videos, good job to the video editor

[@juner0s3s22]

Great job David! You really hit home on Oliver Cowderys real nature and his testimony of the book of mormon. Keep it up!

[@tpbarron]

Great info!

[@galbyman]

Finally a Psych reference!!!!!

[@oldskola3634]

Dowsing Rods… I was the most skeptical person about those until trying it. I used one just like in the Amazon ad here. Oddly reliable when walking across water pipes under a floor. Can’t say anything about other uses though.

[@drewj829]

What about James Strang's witnesses? BOM pt 2

[@curtisgeiger9134]

Cowdery studied under Smiths uncle at Dartmouth for 10 years in New Hampshire. Emagine having an angle coming to earth a baptising you and Smith yet you still leave the "church".

[@DougVandegrift]

So at what point in this video do you actually answer the question? Most of the video talks about dousing rods... Why? Did I just miss it after watching this twice? Also, just a critique, the cutaways are very distracting and throw off my thinking.

[@orangemanbad]

If they actually witnessed it why would they all leave the church?

[@RyanMercer]

Why are some medical proffesionals obese, despite knowing the myriad of health consequences of being considerably overweight? Why do some medical professionals smoke and/or drink despite knowing the health consequences? People gonna people.

[@caseykaelin9430]

Why did some of the Children of Israel turn against Moses after seeing the Red Sea part? Or why did Judas betray Christ after seeing his miracles? Because we are all human.

[@orangemanbad]

@@caseykaelin9430 I don’t think that’s quite the same thing. But nice try.

[@caseykaelin9430]

@@orangemanbad I think it is in the same category.

[@alannahmay3823]

Oliver's falling out with Joseph Smith was actually over the Fanny Alger affair.

[@davidsnell2605]

It probably merits an episode in and of itself, but ultimately Oliver was charged with 9 different things (one of them being the Fanny Alger situation). Not all of them were ultimately sustained by the council which excommunicated him, but there was a lot going on. My explanation is admittedly very simplified, but for those wanting to dive deeper there is a link in the description to the council meeting minutes in which he was excommunicated, where you can read more about what was going on. Edit: In other words, the Kirtland Safety Society fiasco hurt Oliver, but it was just one of several things that contributed to his "falling out" with Joseph. I probably could have worded that section more clearly. Double edit, for thorough-ness: This is from the Church's website: "...economic troubles in Kirtland, including the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society bank, dealt a crushing blow to Oliver Cowdery’s finances, and he reacted by pursuing his own enterprise rather than continuing to consecrate his property to the Church. Cowdery further challenged Church leaders by accusing them of mismanaging funds and by spreading rumors that Joseph Smith had committed adultery. In 1838, Joseph called on the high council to investigate Cowdery’s allegations. The council eventually convened and considered several charges against Cowdery, ultimately voting to uphold most of them and excommunicating Cowdery."

[@alannahmay3823]

@@davidsnell2605 It seems that LDS history gets more and complex. But many people, both then and now, were upset upon finding out about Fanny Alger. Polygamy is a very difficult issue to look at.

[@davidsnell2605]

@@alannahmay3823 I 100% agree with you.

[@jamesbaldwin7676]

Anyone looking for God in Joseph Smith, Brigham Young or anyone other than the Savior Himself, is going to be feel dissillusioned, disappointed and betrayed. So it was with Oliver Cowdry. His personal testimony however, was another matter entirely and something he never denied. Even on his death bed and within moments of his passing, he had something to say and so they propped him up on a pillow... He then told them to live according to the teachings contained in the Book of Mormon, and promised them if they would do this that they would meet him in heaven. He then said, “Lay me down and let me fall asleep.” A few moments later he died, without a struggle.

[@brendanwilsonvfx5705]

This and the Book of Moses. And so many other things, are how I know Joseph could not have done this. He would have had to have been so so many things to fall into all of the critics theory's. It begins to make Joseph Smith sound like a Legand who couldn't have possibly existed. But Joseph Smith was merely a prophet. Of God, and by God's power, did he bring the kingdom of heavens gospel to the earth. I can assure you Joseph Smith was a true human being, and all of those eye witnesses were not lying, and he did commune with god. And miracles are still present to this day that the powers of god Enabled and brought forth to the world. God doesn't and didn't just appear in the old world only, and their are not just records from the old world as well about our God. But because he is God. He Speaks to all of his sheep and has prophets and apostles to lead and guide by inspiration of god. The book of Mormon is a record of the new world, that god wasn't just made up from one side of the world. Or that his miracles don't only show up in the new world. God is beautiful. And because god is both in the old world and the new world he is our everlasting God. And their are still prophets and apostles and latter days saints to this day. In Jesus christ's Name, Amen.

[@stygianapproach]

I wish we would just be honest about why Oliver left the church. It wasn't about the Kirtland safety society, it was when he accused Joseph of having an extra-marital affair with Fanny Alger. It looks like Joseph was practicing polygamy at that time, Oliver found out about it, and didn't like it.

[@doubtsalmon]

Needlessly convoluted obfuscation

[@ndjarnag]

I think I’m gonna be a Mormon.

[@itsdutchintime1907]

@@mikkifrompreston4396 Not that impressive.

[@mickski548]

@@mikkifrompreston4396 the exact reason the church has gone no where

[@mickski548]

@@mikkifrompreston4396 bro the tax fraud had nothing to do with my comment lol, the church isn’t going anywhere buddy that’s all my saying 👍🏻🧂

[@mickski548]

@@mikkifrompreston4396 why would the church need to publish there’s a decline? Lol what will that show? Like I said the church ain’t goin anywhere even if we lose a bunch it ain’t goin nowhere it is here to stay

[@StandforTruth712]

You speak of Olivers consistency in his testimony of the plates and you accept it as fact that he saw them and yet you don't accept his consistent unwavering testimony along with Joseph's that the Book of Mormon was translated directly from the characters engraved on the plates by means of the Urim and Thummin.

[@curtisgeiger9134]

If you want a confirmation read the book yourself. There were no horses. No Sheep. No wine. No bread. No monthly calander etc. 75% of the book comes from the King James Bible. Hyrum Smith studied under his uncle at Dartmouth. Oliver Cowdery spent 10 years studying under the author of the book View of the Hebrews. Look at the history of the Smiths involving Dartmoth College.

[@RyanMercer]

There is barley native to Norht America horses are native to North America... these are established and widely accepted scientific facts published in peer-reviewed non-religious journals...

[@parks4life]

There is some useful information presented here, its just unfortunate its presented with such an apologetic spin - it feels like you're about to get one side of the story. Indeed, the excommunication of Oliver Cowdrey, for example, is conveniently glossed over and pinned on the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society - a somewhat trivial and uninteresting matter. A fair discussion would have disclosed that just months before his excommunication, Oliver Cowdrey confronted Joseph Smith about a "nasty, filthy affair" he was engaged in with the teenage Fanny Alger, who Emma Smith promptly ejected the Smith family home upon this discovery. If we can trust Oliver's good character, why would he make such an humiliating accusation? If this disturbing event wasn't a consideration in Oliver's excommunication, especially with the proximation in time, why not? Just because it's complicated doesn't mean its not relevant and shouldn't be discussed. We cannot know every part of history with 100% accuracy and that's fine - but we shouldn't ignore or try to bury the facts and evidence we do have. When we do that we show our own bias and a disregard for the objective truth.

[@alanbylund2659]

Your additional information here only adds more support to the point made by the video. There are other videos that offer more detail about the Fanny Alger story. It was sufficient for this video that because of Oliver's excommunication and separation from the church and Joseph Smith that he had ample motivation to reveal the hoax of the Book of Mormon if he believed it was a hoax. The more details we learn for his separation from the church the stronger the argument for his testimony of the Book of Mormon. By the way, his actual letter called the situation with Fanny a "nasty, filthy scrape", not affair. Scrape was changed to affair by some other editor years later. I wonder why?

[@parks4life]

@@alanbylund2659 I’m happy to hear this video was satisfying to you. I suspect this video was created for good people like yourself who just want to believe the LDS truth narratives in an ocean of contradictions. Boyd K Packer said not all facts are worthy or helpful to build the faith. This video did its best weed out those “unworthy” facts and it’s totally fair to do so in a damage control situation. Keep the faith brother and if these videos are compelling to you all the better!

[@alanbylund2659]

@@parks4life A more accurate description of the purpose of this video is correcting misinformation, rather than "damage control". You seem to have completely missed my point and the point of the video. If they had gone into all the details for Oliver's excommunication, it would have only added support fo the point of this video. The length of the video is the only possible explanation for why the details you are talking about are not included. The fact that this channel has done videos devoted to the details of Joseph Smith's polygamy and even Fanny Alger specifically prove that there is no attempt to avoid any "unworthy" facts. Your blindness to the points I and the video have made is a very suspicious indicator that you are the one who is avoiding inconvenient facts that challenge your convenient assumptions. I can easily show you how the vast majority of what you see as contradictions are actually your false assumptions about misinformation and misunderstanding. Share with me the two most glaring contradictions and I'll be glad to provide a far more likely conclusion than the assumption of contradiction.

[@parks4life]

@@alanbylund2659 You just go on believing what you like to believe friend, you have my support!

[@MerkieAE]

that William Layne quote is so funny to me. almost wanna make a response video considering that same guy would often say that Oliver would admit that the entire creation of the book of mormon was a conspiracy in private but would testify of its truthfulness in public.

[@MerkieAE]

and btw to anyone reading this, lay out the beginnings of mormon history on a timeline. notice how in sunday school they never teach it in chronological order because if they did it would be clear it was a sham lol. start with the smith family having a connection to oliver cowdrey, the family having a connection to dartmouth which links joseph to sydney rigdon and ethan smith who was oliver cowdrey’s pastor in his home town, even link that with the masonic connections at dartmouth and the Smith family’s masonic connections, they literally named their son Hyrum which is a name from Masonic folklore.

[@MerkieAE]

this is all very clearly a conspiracy that started out to gain money and power, and I think it’s the same thing now but I think all the leaders actually believe they have magic powers.

[@saurasenascorgan1319]

Did Oliver Cowdery actually see the golden plates? I'm not going to go into whether or not the witnesses saw the plates with physical eyes or "spiritual eyes." Let's suppose that Cowdery actually did see something that resembled golden plates - this information alone does not prove the validity of Joseph Smith's story or the historicity of the plates. It just means he saw something (what it was we don't know). Some have speculated that what the witnesses actually saw was something Smith made in his father's cooper shop. It is conveniently unfortunate that we don't have the plates today to examine and determine if they are modern or ancient. What we do have are the words from which Smith supposedly translated from the ancient plates. The text of the Book of Mormon seems to indicate a modern origin and that Smith was not translating from an ancient source. The biggest indicator of this are the 1769 King James Version of the Bible translation errors that appear within the pages of the Book of Mormon. For example, Isaiah 6:13 was not translated correctly in the KJV: "... and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof." This verse was copied into the Book of Mormon with some slight modifications (see: 2 Nephi 16:13). Those who worked on the 1611 KJV incorrectly traslated the Hebrew word matstsebeth as "substance." The correct rendering should be "stump" as in the ESV and most modern translations. Here is another example, Isaiah 14:10 was not understood correctly by the 1611 KJV translators. They apparently supposed that the two statements were to be understood as questions since that's the way the earlier English Bible versions read. But the words here are a declarative statement and are not to be taken as questions. Modern Bible versions have corrected the verse and it should read similar to the ESV: "All of them will answer and say to you: ' you too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!" But take a look at the Book of Mormon (2 Nephi 24:10). Notice how the incorrectly translated verse was copied from the 1769 KJV word for word. And yes, I know that punctuation was not part of Smith's translation. But I'm not talking about the appearance of a question mark as much as I'm referring to the "translated" words that would indicate such usage. Are we really to believe that even with the Urim & Thummim, the seer stone and "the gift and power of God" that Smith STILL could not come up with the correct translation? Even though Emma Smith testified specifically that during the translation process her husband "had neither manuscript or book to read from", it's quite obvious that he did have a 1769 KJV from which he copied verses from (often times with some type of modification). This conclusion is given more weight due to the many instances in which Smith unknowingly copied incorrectly translated passages from the Bible into his book. Even if Cowdery did see something that resembled golden plates, Smith's "translation" of those plates points to a modern origin - not ancient.

[@Hamann9631]

Saurasenas Corgan. The most important proof is the Holy Ghost's witness. It is important that Oliver Cowdery saw the plates AND HEARD THE VOICE OF GOD AND SAW AN ANGEL. It was more than I saw something. Joseph Smith was a poor farm boy. You have great faith in his ability to fake gold or obtain gold. I don't have enough faith in unrealistic thing to believe that about Joseph Smith. You obviously have a prejudice against The King James Translation. You didn't prove those were translation errors. Maybe The King James Translation is right. You also didn't explain where The Book of Mormon differs from The King James Translation. Those difference disprove the false idea that Joseph Smith copied The King James Translation.

[@BGCflyer]

thanks for sharing this. I have heard that JS took things from the Bible when "translating" the BofM but these details give a different light on the matter.

[@brettmajeske3525]

I think you are underestimating the influence the KJV had on the type printer.

[@kolehollis5852]

Where do you get that whole spiritual eyes thing from? Did the video just show us that he saw it, physically, plain as day with his own eyes?

[@BGCflyer]

great production!..... why is it that NO ONE mentions Fany Alger and his accusation of their dirty nasty affair. I know it's not the only reason, but it's conveniently left out, until people prob and ask. Polygamy, polyandry, and other affairs ruin everything. Once you include the truth of this....all of the history and persecution, as terrible as it is, starts to make sense.

[@brettmajeske3525]

Likely because he later recanted. He based the accusations of second hand stories.

[@naomipratt1947]

I wonder if, until the day he died, Oliver Cowdery continued to believe in his rod of nature.

[@imoutbye]

The key point is WHY WERE WE NOT TOLD THIS STUFF BEFORE? Whether it's debatable or not. The fact is people are in old age now just learning this stuff and realizing for themselves, call it the sprit revealing, IT'S A FRAUD.

[@brettmajeske3525]

Well I do not know what you were told, I was told in the 80's and early 90s. It was found in Ensign Articles. It wasn't this great secret you make it out to be. Maybe you just had bad teachers?

[@imoutbye]

@@brettmajeske3525 SERISOULY. YOU PEOPLE ARE SUCKERS FOR KNOWING THIS AND STILL BUYING IT. THIS IS CULT BRAIN WASHING. TO THE POINT YOU'RE SO GULLIBLE YOU THINK THIS CRAP IS TRUE AND YOUR RIGHT. IMAGINE HEARING THIS HAPPENING IN ANOTHER RELIGION. HOW WOULD YOU TAKE IT THAN? MUHHAMED WAS VISITED BY AN ANGEL. HE WAS TOLD TO CREATE A NEW RELIGION BECAUSE CURRENT ONES WERE NOT TRUE. HE WAS TOLD TO CREATEA BOOK. JOSPEH SMITH ONCE SAID, "I WILL BE THE MUHAMMAD OF AMERICA"

[@moronirubio2778]

@@brettmajeske3525 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 what a big piece of crap! See? you used the same argument against me. “You just had mediocre Sunday school teachers” when the truth is that the church has never been honest about it, it’s not an isolated issue!!! Tell the truth don’t get converts with half truths and lies. Man what a joke! you are too much of an old fart to believe in fairy tales.

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@moronirubio2778 You can check back issues of BYU Studies or Dialogue from the 80s and 90s. For those interested in history it was available. Not all Sunday School teachers did, but there were many who were. There is not a single LDS experience, it varies from Ward to Ward and Stake to Stake. I am not denying your experience by expressing that mine was not the same.

[@davidamicus9757]

I think that the witnesses did see something but not from God. Also I remember once reading that during Oliver's ten year absence that he joined some protestant sect.

[@paulpeterson1305]

What did they see then

[@davidamicus9757]

@@paulpeterson1305 They saw a demon posing as an angel of light.

[@davidsnell2605]

@@davidamicus9757 interesting theory. Do you believe the plates were real physical objects, or hallucinations conjured up by the demon?

[@davidamicus9757]

@@davidsnell2605 The Witnesses said they saw and handled them. Emma cleaned around them. So I think the plates were something physical. I'll give Joseph the benefit of the doubt and say that at least in the beginning for him it was not a hoax. I am a Catholic. I do not believe that there was a Great Apostasy. There was no need for a new religion (Mohammed), a reformation (Luther and his ilk) or a need for a restoration (Joseph Smith, the Cambellites, the Irvingites et al). JS was not unique in his claims but maybe the most successful. Btw I have Nauvoo roots. When the missionaries came to England my widowed gggg grandmother joined alone and came to Nauvoo. She later died in Iowa on the trek to Utah. Thus my interest and study of "Mormonism".

[@davidsnell2605]

@@davidamicus9757 I'm a big fan of Catholicism. And that's cool that you've got roots in Nauvoo! So is your view that the plates were something crafted by Satan and given to Joseph, or did Joseph somehow create the plates himself?