Did pedestrian malls ruin U.S. downtowns?

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The journal article isn't posted for public viewing just yet, so here's my draft (PDF). I'll update this link when it goes public: www.dropbox.com/s/mtrmadc0bwp...
Link to the pedestrian mall spreadsheet: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Produced by Dave Amos in sunny Sacramento, California.
Edited by Eric Schneider in cloudy Cleveland, Ohio.

[@CityBeautiful]

Thank you to everyone who has sent me leads about pedestrian malls they know about! I've received a bunch and it's going to take me awhile to go through them all. I'll try and post a text update on KZbin when I've incorporated all of the new information. Thank you again!

[@gelpen7882]

Why do you care?

[@marvin9206]

There's a pedestrian mall in Portland, OR that he used stock footage of in the beginning. I'm still impressed you dug though all those records though, it's a ton of work!

[@cfraimondo233]

You missed Buffalo, NY. Pedestrian mall created in the 1980s for light rail. Killed the downtown core's retail. In the 2010s been reintroducing vehicle traffic and seen a resurgence. The economy of Rust Belt cities in the 80s was different than today, so the pedestrian/transit mall didnt kill retail, just sped up the inevitable.

[@cfraimondo233]

@@pastortt4167 How is an example of a pedestrian mall completely irrelevant to a video about pedestrian malls? The author specifically stated how pedestrian malls of the 70s and 80s killed downtown retail. He also stated if he missed examples to please let him know. But, thank you for your ingenious insight and opinion that nobody asked for. Nobody insulted you, but yet you think you have the right to be an asshole to everyone else.

[@cfraimondo233]

@@pastortt4167 You're totally right. A comment about pedestrian malls in the 80s killing retail is totally irrelevant to a video about pedestrian malls in the 80s killing retail. Thank you for your insight. So sorry to have butt hurt you.

[@pad9x]

"Pedestrian Malls are FAILURES !!!" - A Public Service Announcement brought to you by your friendly neighbourhood Auto Industry lobbyist.

[@leavewe]

this

[@dede4004]

And now suburban malls are failing as well. It's not all the internet either, or online shopping, because the mall was in decline before online shopping became a thing.

[@angellacanfora]

It's like you read my mind...

[@isaiah3491]

@North American KZbinr yeah but most American cities are far from walkable.

[@tylermoses7829]

@North American KZbinr it isn't a conspiracy theory. haha. But you are correct about people being lazy. however, it also differs depending on the location, age group, etc.

[@BManStan1991]

I like pedestrian malls. In a nation where it seems impossible to escape the car, it’s nice to have spaces solely for, well, walking around.

[@zacharyhenderson2902]

...that most people had to drive to

[@__chinmay__]

Yeah,it's malls but eco freindly

[@phuturephunk]

Unfortunately this has been counter to every last bit of land planning in the US for like the last 70 years, only recently changing over the last 2 decades...and even then, only in places with good reinforcing transit systems and people prone to walk in the first place. I live in a town that is directly on the main line for NYC rail transit and the people around here still bitch about parking access.

[@greenmachine5600]

@@zacharyhenderson2902 that's why it has to be mixed use development. Homes and businesses next to each other.

[@zacharyhenderson2902]

@@greenmachine5600 , or, or, orrrrrrrrr. We could just not zone it, at all, and let people do whatever they want to do with their own property

[@earlystrings1]

So, in summary, malls succeed in vibrant, interesting cities, and fail in cities that are dumps to begin with.

[@sitdowndogbreath]

Look at the one in Redding California sunny failed

[@kkgauthier]

@@sitdowndogbreath The odd thing is that the one in Redding was an indoor mall for a very long time, and was only converted to an open air space in the last 20 years. It really doesn't fit his criteria. Redding has also been a stagnate financial backwater for at least the last forty years.

[@Riotathohdown]

@@sitdowndogbreath Redding CA is a to put it bluntly a dump

[@johnwireman2660]

They have to be nurtured. Most failed pedestrian malls were neglected by the business community and the government of the cities and towns they were in.

[@greenmachine5600]

It about mixed use development. Businesses and homes next to each other. So less zoning laws, less single family homes.

[@peto1986]

Im from Slovakia but live in New Zealand now and I must admit it absolutely annoys me that there are almost none pedestrian zones in NZ. People have similar fear from them here as in US, everything is about cars. If they can't park beside their favorite restaurant is completely unimaginable for them. It's completely opposite in Europe. Shops and bars that are not on pedestrian zones suffer a lot, because people rather go an extra few steps to visit the ones that are placed on a beautiful square or street with a fountain and historical buildings around them. In Europe is not about "mall" is about the ultimate experience for tourists that city can offer you. That's why almost every city centre has pedestrian zone there

[@dzonikg]

Yes i was shocked when i went to US first and did not find pedestrian zone in center..only cars...we even had pedestrian zones in city centers during communism ..guess is total different mindset..i love cars..i have 4 cars and love to do something on them but there place is not everywhere

[@hypothalapotamus5293]

People say that Americans don't like pedestrian zones, but pedestrian zones in the US often get a large amount of business when designated. People say that Americans only want low density housing, but townhouses are on zillow for about 2 days before going under contract in my area. The problem with these things is not demand. It's a matter of certain Americans practically outlawing them to "preserve neighborhood character".

[@rachelcookie321]

I live in nz too. I live in Christchurch and our CBD has a lot of pedestrian roads.

[@jasonreed7522]

It seems like common sense for bars to want to be car independent. (Drinking and Driving is illegal for good reasons) And likewise patrons would prefer to be able to walk home from the bar, or atleast not have to drive themselves.

[@brucenadeau2172]

in america some poeple cannot walk that far these street maals no one built affordable parking o people that live outside walking range can use them

[@IvayloTod]

Pedestrian streets can do nothing but good for businesses, however they have to be in densely populated areas that do have pedestrian traffic on first place.

[@cayocosta3576]

Exactly, you said everything. We cannot just import an idea without considering these variables, such as density, accessibility, transit mode, etc.

[@MysticPredator]

it dose not need to be densely populated. Nobody would call Iowa City densely populated

[@landewell6862]

@@MysticPredator yeah, more like, consumer preference. You can have a city with 25,000 lazy-bums, which is basically a city on wheel wheel chairs lmao. This is why research and survey is important. We cannot just copy and paste ideas from other countries.

[@robbiemeikle2919]

Well In Scotland we have pedestrian streets in virtually every city and I can safely say it does help business and consumerism, for example pedestrian streets in Glasgow are always full of shoppers and the better stores tend to open there like Buchanan street it’s a pedestrian street. I think the only difference between our pedestrian streets and yours is that most of our pedestrian streets were already pedestrian streets and this is what attracted the great shops and plentiful amounts of shoppers, in conclusion if you do pedestrian streets correctly they can be very good for business. P.S. pedestrian streets are ONLY good for city’s with a good shopping scene where people are getting out of there car or walking around, even better if most people travelling there are going by train (like Glasgow) or if there is a big tourism scene (like Edinburgh)

[@bbgun061]

It seems we also need more mixed use zoning. American cities are so spread apart that cars are a necessity.

[@nannerz1994]

I love how you immediately addressed people who will immediately compare us to Europe lol

[@itzpro5951]

@joseph adel No one is better. The world is equal and thats what we should stand by.

[@bobakproductions]

@@itzpro5951 Some places are better than others to different people. I am sure there are places which you prefer to be. Why do you think that is?

[@Croz89]

Sprawling suburbs are less common in Europe (not to say they don't exist though). City residents are more likely to live in high density apartment blocks within walking or cycling distance of the pedestrian areas, or near frequent public transit that will get them there.

[@RtaincCo]

@joseph adel Broke and want to live well? Choose Europe. Want to try to be as rich as possible? Choose America. Different needs for different people. Very generalised of course, but it’s an example of advantages to both countries. Edit: obviously you guys took a simplified comparison of capitalism vs. a social economy as me saying Europeans are all broke and Americans are rich. Great logic, guys.

[@djwestbrook36]

Europeans like to brag about things, when they just lucky they built their infrastructure before cars were created

[@ReevansElectro]

To keep city cores alive, they have to build living space on top of the stores and keep a community living and working there.

[@royhoeksema5720]

Robert Evans Nope. All Dutch towns have that and most smaller town centers are quite deserted and have an shop vacancy rate of more than 10%.

[@Carewolf]

Zoning, the root of all city design issues in the US. And how do they try to solve those issues: More zoning... Fucking idiots. Stop playing SimCity and make a real town!

[@mds3697]

@@Carewolfliving space on top of stores! Impossible! There has to be at least 5kms of distance between where you live and where you buy your groceries, just to ensure that you have to sit stuck in traffic for half an hour when you go shopping.

[@josie3221]

@@mds3697 hahah lmao

[@elysium76]

The problem in American cities is they residential property is too expensive

[@danielviehland]

In Helena, MT there's a walking mall in the downtown that, as I understand it, was considered a miserable failure when it first started. Now it is a really vibrant community hub. I think sometimes it takes time to catch on and you need to pair it with other things that foster community in the space.

[@Gabagabe1]

That's because it's gentrifying Helena is getting way more people with money moving in.

[@jens_le_benz]

@@Gabagabe1is more money a bad thing? (provided it’s not making the original population homeless)

[@soulvelazquez]

To me, as a European, not having to take a car to go anywhere on a daily basis is normal. All in all, even European cities have declining commercial activity in their downtown areas.

[@Someone-cd7yi]

That has probably to do with the popularity of online shopping

[@avskardi]

And specially bc ppl don’t have much money anymore...

[@timmmahhhh]

Your cities and civilizations are far older too. American cities are much younger especially as one moves west. Plus the car was such a dominant entity of the US economy somewhat coerced by the car companies themselves.

[@Dell-ol6hb]

Ignacio Sancho I have a similar experience living in New York City since it’s a city that’s nearly 400 years old it was built long before cars so it has great walk ability and public transportation. I literally never have to drive anywhere in the city unless I’m going somewhere out side the city.

[@huckleberryfinn6578]

@@allgoo1990 Of course they are shopping malls in Europe. By far not as huge as in Asia or the USA but there are already some really big ones. According to Wikipedia, of the 225 largest malls worldwide are over 20 in Europe.

[@lordofthestrings86]

2:43 Clarification: a massive tornado removed the city center in Parsons, KS in 2000. They just decided not to rebuild it the same.

[@TheVirub]

Every city in Spain has at least one of this "pedestrian malls". It would feel weird if a city doesn't have one.

[@kaliyuga1476]

Even big cities like Seville have zones only for pedestrians

[@maxi-me]

In America we like cities feeling weird, normal cities are boring

[@googleprofiel6814]

"Pedestrian mall"... Lwt's just call it a shopping street to not make it sound to stupid and American.

[@maxi-me]

@@googleprofiel6814 lol good one! though not much shopping as most of the peds here are homeless and broke (why most cities have removed them)

[@notthatguy4703]

Am I the only person who's not very impressed by the europeans? Get over yourself, not everything is a contest! Sure, your cities maybe older and full of history, but I am quite happy with America. Out greatest cities here are grander, seem more full, and honestly have more culture. Clearly we do not see Europe as a shining example of how cities should operate, because if we were, we would be speaking solely about Japan or South Korea. Additionally, it's not spoken of much, but in my opinion, the quality of nature is crucial for quality of life. I'd say when it comes to naturual beauty the Americas', from North and South, beat every other place on the planet with the exception of maybe Africa. It's pointless to squabble back and forth about who's homeland is better because it is largely subjective. That being said, as an American, we absolutely do not give a fuck about Europe. We could give give a shit what you are doing and don't think in any regard that you are better nor do we strive to be more like you.

[@Vespuchian]

I also notice each of the thriving examples have a lot of shade trees, I wonder if that sort of (pardon the pun) organic climate control makes a pedestrian street inherently more appealing.

[@inlonging]

The trees wouldn’t have been large when first installed, however it’s a good point. Blazing heat makes for poor enjoyment. Think walking between resorts on the Vegas strip lol 🥵

[@dandeleon2764]

Some people go to indoor malls JUST for the comfort of the temperature. It definitely makes a difference

[@nicholasfield6127]

It's good ambience.

[@SupremeLeaderKimJong-un]

We have many public squares like the large Kim Il-sung Square that people love

[@00vatsal00]

Kim Jong-un Oh the great leader of the peoples... please guide us for many roads and plazas mistakes we hav done with your superior intelligence and leardership

[@Nebs1]

I’ve seen photos and videos of your grand squares. They’re more dead than a defector

[@krashsite2125]

Ah yes the great Kim. Many respects

[@alexcarter8807]

I just wanna poke your stomach and see if you giggle like the Pillsbury Dough Boy.

[@Suite_annamite]

*Dear Comrade Kim III, public squares are a sign of great civilization and lack-there-of vice versa!*

[@flipsuryc]

This is how you do academic research and disseminate the findings to a large audience!!!! The information is accessible and engaging. I definitely wanted to hear more as you spoke. Fantastic work and insight!

[@lydia9522]

As someone who grew up in Charlottesville, VA, I find it interesting that college students get some of the credit for keeping the downtown mall alive, because in my experience almost all of the students hang out in a different area of town, closer to campus, and the mall is honestly more the place to be for high schoolers, young professionals, etc.

[@jh8320]

Same in Ithaca. I was kind of surprised…. I think college towns just have more progressive city planners and more disposable income.

[@jonc4403]

And in Knoxville. Sure, UT is less than a mile away from Market Square, but UT was there when it was first pedestrianized, was there when it was virtually dead, and is still there now that it's thriving. It's not the college that did it. Really, it's all the people who said 'fuck this' to suburbia, and moved back downtown. Downtown was a ghost town after 5pm in the mid '90s, now it's packed and there are plans to take out surface parking lots and build new buildings.

[@MrMarinus18]

They do whip by every once in a while which can often be that extra little that keeps them alive. Not to mention a big part of shopping centers is the sense of public and other people. It has been shown many times that people are very unlikely to join an empty shopping center. Shopping centers above all need people in them, even if many of them don't buy anything and are just walking through it. It creates a sensation of liveliness. But a lot of open shopping centers where I live have a lot of students. You see them a lot and there are plenty of book stores, game mania's, phone shops, game shops, hip clothing stores and other such stores. There are others as well of course but there is plenty aimed at youth.

[@LoneHowler]

Calgary is a winter city, but the pedestrian mall is not near either large student campus. It does check off large city. It has multiple things along it that encourages it to thrive, City hall, museums, convention center, hotels,a large indoor mall, bars, restaurants, public green space. But I think one of the things that keeps it vibrant is that the city encourages festivals to be held along it even in winter. It draws people in to walk along the entire length and visit the stores

[@caddlemen]

I like most ped malls I have visited. Still; I acknowledge that some ped malls create logistical issues for people to drive there and find parking in cities with skimpy public transit.

[@landewell6862]

"F*ck y'all cars!"

[@kyotokid4]

...fortunately Portland OR has a very excellent transit system and could actually do with more pedestrian spaces including in some of the inner neighbourhood business districts.

[@th8257]

The phrase ped mall sounds like it's something to do with paedophilia

[@lfsuassuna]

Well the solution would be for the city to focus on public transportation and other alternative methods, like cycling. Too bad the US and the auto industry go together like peanut butter and jam, lively streets seem so rare in this country.

[@sebastian3004]

@@th8257 because that's what's in your head all the time.

[@verityyyy]

I live in Sacramento and love how much you've shown off K street. They've put some serious work in here and it's getting very nice.

[@mannyechaluce3814]

Wait till Antifa and BLM gets hold of it, they will burn the place down

[@dantompkins2584]

@@mannyechaluce3814 only if a black man was whipped or tased or shot there by a white cop then yea they'll RIP the vegetation out root by root lmao 🤷‍♂️😳😎👊💪✊🤔🤣🤣🤣🤣😑🤦‍♂️

[@Tsubahi]

Sacramento used to be my home and I remember K Street. 🙂 It even has a fancy old theater.

[@Abcflc]

Well, if Americans are still obsessed with "convenience" and car-based life, then anything pedestrian is going to fail or not do as well as expected. Also, are these commercial areas mixed use? If people don't live above the stores then you don't have density to sustain mom-and-pop shops or a constant flow of people in the area.

[@Ocelot80524]

i've been to pearl st a ton of times + graduated hs in fort collins and honestly yes to all of it for those two surviving cases. depending on the building, some have apartments above them. a lot of towns have that downtown. also parking was super accessible in both locations, as well as public transit and a good bike culture so getting to the "malls" wasn't problematic. i didn't consider old town to be a mall, it's just old town XD but i guess it is if you think about it, i think calling it a square is pretty accurate there though. parking there is great imo, they've got a 1-way flow and center parking so you have to frogger it a little bit but people do that anyway. pearl st was just easy, and there's some traffic flow through the mall itself as well. really good lights and walk signals, everything changes frequently so things keep flowing. they're both in the same state and within an hour of each other though so i wonder if many others are the same but they look close enough in pictures i'm betting there's a lot of similarities :)

[@jasonquigley2633]

Irony: America is actually a really inconvenient place.

[@noonehere4332]

“Convenience” when it is obligatory to do anything.

[@qaipak1]

@@jasonquigley2633 inconvenient? Do you live in America? Have you lived in Europe?

[@jasonquigley2633]

@@qaipak1 I live in the United States, and have travelled in half the country. I lived in Ireland until 5 years ago, and have also traveled throughout Europe. The USA is a much more inconvenient place to live and travel then Europe. Asian countries like Korea or Japan are even more convenient again. In the USA you do, generally, make more money, however.

[@RafaelAndre00]

I live in a old city in Puerto Rico called Ponce that actually has one pedestrian mall that is three blocks long called Calle Atocha. It's somewhat struggling to survive due to the bigger shopping mall built in the 1990's, but it's still there because it actually connects directly to the city main square where almost everything happens.

[@pollytheparrot46]

Moral of the story, let's make the whole world like one big college campus.

[@Tripserpentine]

Yes wonderful everyone educated, that would be awesome. No more dumb people, finally :). wonderful utopia.

[@FreyaEinde]

You have to admit most college campuses are pretty well designed and easy to walk through. The worst part of the experience is usually finding someplace to park...

[@Tripserpentine]

That's the point, you go to university and get educated so you are no longer a dumb ass.

[@BManStan1991]

I mean. I’m not against the idea. Most college campuses are pretty enjoyable to be on.

[@laur-unstagenameactuallyca1587]

I'd like that

[@indigohalf]

I lived in Iowa City for several years and I was perplexed by the intro of your video- I had no idea pedestrian malls had such a negative reputation. One thing I think makes the Iowa City ped mall great that you didn't mention is that there's stuff there besides commercial enterprises, meaning there's still reason to go there if you're a broke and car-less student or a young parent who can't financially justify much recreational spendng. When I lived there, the Ped Mall was also home to a seasonal fountain that children played in during the summer, the main entrance to the excellent Iowa City Public Library, and a small community garden.

[@colinmcdonald2499]

As I recall from living there too,. It also had ample and affordable public parking on the North -South Axis of it. So you could drive to campus/downtown, park your car and walk through the pedmall on your way to classes, an administrative building, to a bank, etc. And use it as a direct walking route. This clearly helped keep pedestrian traffic moving in and out steadily. Rather than using 1/2 of it's square footage for diagonal parking, they had built parking structures that greatly increased parking capacity ( student parking was limited for Undergrads). Not to mention it was a straight shot into campus from the residential college apartments just South of campus. And the residential neighborhoods just to the East as well. So location and planning was pretty perfect in this case. I wonder what they ever did with Old Capital Mall ( indoor) just a block West of there. It was already dead by the early 00's.

[@indigohalf]

@@colinmcdonald2499 it was still shambling along in the early 2010s. The University occupied a good bit of it at that time, including most of the upper level. I attended meetings of the University's anime club there, as a matter of fact.

[@ratatataraxia]

I love channels like this. Specific, passionate, humorous and informative all at the same time. Good stuff.

[@peter_smyth]

6:03 A pedestrian mall (or pedestrian street) isn't really comparable to a stadium or indoor shopping centre, as it's just a paved area with buildings either side. Buildings last far more than 50 years, and streets are easily repaved. Also, streets don't ave to be completely destroyed to have major updates, like sports stadiums do.

[@seprishere]

Pedestrianised streets seem to work reasonably well in the UK, including in small/medium size towns.

[@filipjankoski421]

if they work in Uk they can work anywhere cause of all the rain

[@sitdowndogbreath]

@Ginger idiot like you will be laughing figures

[@royhoeksema5720]

uncriticalsimon Not everywhere tho. Look ar stevenage’s crumbling center

[@basstedson]

There are plenty that would argue with you. Mostly people that don't realise it's them sitting at home ordering everything off amazon that has killed off town centre retail.

[@lmlmd2714]

They do work well in Europe as public transport, compact city layout and mixed use zones make for a very strong package that encourages walking, while driving is usually frustrating and avoided due to parking, convoluted one way systems and the like. Most US cities outside the North-east don't have these characteristics. They tend toward low density, single-use sprawl with awful public transport, often carved up by freeways that create urban "rivers" (more like giant trenches). To get to the pedestrianised centre you have to drive, in which case you might as well go to the mall where there's parking right on the doorstep. The only cities well suited to pedestrianisation are those old northeastern cities, which have very severe winters (much more so than the "chilly and a bit of drizzle" that the UK has) which limits their season.

[@AverytheCubanAmerican]

Here in NY they also opened a pedestrian mall for summers between Penn Station and the 33rd St PATH station, not just Times Square

[@maxeuker2949]

NYC is also experimenting with shared streets, which are really interesting. nyc.streetsblog.org/2019/10/04/brooklyn-shared-streets-are-the-start-of-something-bigger/

[@imhamish]

New York is trailblazing, but its easier when you are many times denser than the average US city, with a greater proportion of people travelling by foot or public transport.

[@robinstewart6510]

So it takes a huge city to support two pedestrian malls. I wouldn't really call that a success, or an option for most towns.

[@greenmachine5600]

@@robinstewart6510 wrong. Use mixed development, living next to businesses and stores. Less zoning laws, less single family homes and more apartments and row homes. Homes on top of businesses and such give you a constant supply of people.

[@risinggoddess]

I was about to check you on the IL ones in your spreadsheet that I lived through, but after I double checked my memory... you really did your research. Mad crazy respect!

[@riainangaeilgeoir4595]

These are the kind of random videos i enjoy watching. It made me realise what i love watching are things that literally everyone does not even think about. Such as city planning and the safety features of a plug socket

[@warwickeng5491]

They're a big part of daily life in most cities and mid sized to large towns here in Britain, shame business rates are killing business tho :(

[@Kroke_Monster]

Warwick EnG, U.K. has always had them just a natural development of settlements, it’s our high street, the reason the USA calls them malls for pedestrians is because most USA cities aren’t natural thus development hasn’t occurred over time like w high street. And USA has chosen to rename it and call it a day as per usual.

[@warwickeng5491]

@@Kroke_Monster yeah ngl high street sounds a lot better than "pedestrian mall" ahah

[@filminginportland1654]

Kroke Monster Not sure about the “not natural” part, most of our cities grew organically just as yours did, they’re just newer. Most bigger cities were around 70-170 years before the automobile, too, so were built to be pedestrian-scaled. It’s all that growth after the auto, and the move to the suburbs, that screwed it up but there are still well-laid-out cities friendly to transit, walking and cycling. Really just depends on where you look, we have good & bad examples of everything. It’s a massive country that might as well be five or six (at least) unique countries. I live in the Pacific Northwest and when I went down south to North Carolina recently, WOW it was like going to another planet. Really alien to me.

[@ziggypwner]

Great stuff per usual! Your content is getting me more and more excited to pursue a master's in urban planning (along with an MS in Civil Engineering, with a focus in transportation.) Thanks for the great content!

[@spikerslittleworlds8156]

I was so confused when I saw the title and listened to the intro of this video. Growing up in the 80's and 90's very close to Winchester, VA and within a reasonable drive to Charlottesville, I kind of assumed "old town malls" were always the highlight of downtown areas for smaller cities. In those two cases at least, everyone wants to live near them and many people drive in just to visit them, regardless of how difficult it is to find parking. This was true my entire adult life in VA. I agree the nearby colleges help (not so much in Winchester) but I think the historical nature of those towns is something to consider as well. Happy to hear I was just lucky enough to grow up near two of the largest pedestrian malls by block count on your list. Thanks for the great video!

[@ah8459]

Happy to see your accomplishment! I just found your channel and I'm super excited to binge them !

[@phillip3273]

A native of Spartanburg SC, I didn't even know that we had something like this! Awesome video and thanks for teaching me something new!

[@DanAKFsmartguy]

Going off of this video, I would really like to know your opinion on larger (mostly rust belt) cities tearing down freeways/highways turning through their downtown areas (Rochester, Syracuse, and Fall River). I would like to know the advantages and disadvantages of doing this and how it will affect the cities.

[@Fusdew]

You would think Fall River would have more important things to spend their money on

[@keltondavis4559]

@@Fusdew well often times the problems the cities face were caused by the highways. For example cleveland

[@Fusdew]

kelton davis Yes, but is spending millions of dollars getting rid of a road worth it? Especially in cities like Fall River and Rochester where you could just go like 2 miles in any direction and find undeveloped land, and build whatever you want there.

[@keltondavis4559]

@@Fusdew you may be right every city has its own unique problems and requires its own unique solution.

[@langhamp8912]

Short answer; yes, removing freeways, or rather turning them into streets (not roads) is fiscally responsible, and we have pretty good numbers showing just how much, and why it is so. Basically, streets and roads are liabilities that need to be constantly maintained. City designers have a love hate relationship with urban freeways, because while the initial funding is Federal dollars (80 20 split, usually), the neighborhoods they go through are destroyed along with the tax base. And a densely populated area is hands down your best tax returners. A blighted slum with a few apartment buildings returns many times more taxes than a shiny mall with huge parking lots. And a lot, if not most, cities are populated by city designers who have done the math and have a historical record; that's why there's so many car exclusion zones these days. If you don't stop building roads and parking lots then your township becomes insolvant, that is, the taxes raised are less than the cost to maintain the roads. The cost to run infrastructure is roughly 1.5 million per mile of street, and that doesn't change if you're in the city or the suburb, but your tax revenue from the urban areas is several million dollars versus the $50,000 or so per month per suburban block. Essentially, the urban areas subsidize the suburban areas. These pedestrian areas are simply a response to cities becoming insolvant. They can't afford to use public space to store many cars that don't actually carry many people.

[@MB-st7be]

Seems like the usual tale: if people already walk around there a lot, then you can pedestrianise. If they don't, central planning won't force them to.

[@okochannell]

I just discovered your channel and it's really interesting and full of wisdom. Greetings from Poland!

[@vwwhiteknight]

"Elder state spaces of the public realm" What a wonderful turn of phrase!

[@deanc9453]

+

[@excrossbones]

I was born in Kalamazoo! I never knew that this was the first pedestrian mall! I remember going there was I was young and I remember, maybe it was 15 years ago?, they decided to put a one lane road in this mall area. I guess business there did pick up. However, it seems to me the big failure of doing this pedestrian mall idea is strategic parking. You should have many small and dense parking areas around the walking mall. Also, In Flint, Michigan, the large mall, Genesee Valley Mall has started to covert the vast, unused, parking lot space to a sort of quasi-walking mall. A bit ironic.

[@AlvinGuoSubscribe]

These videos are so well made. Keep it up

[@smcphee6940]

Boston's Downtown Crossing (possibly even Quincy Market) was missing from the list. Don't know if it counts based on when it was built or something else but it seems it would be included

[@JGHinton1989]

the town I grew up it is on the list "Laurel Mississippi, Central Avenue. That area has been going through a new revitalization period recently.

[@owencolby8146]

This is my favorite KZbin channel keep up the great work

[@pongop]

Awesome video! Congratulations on your research getting published!

[@aragorn1780]

One of the biggest drawbacks I personally see in American pedestrian malls is that they tend to be artificial commercial zones that are standalone and you still have to drive to get to (Easton Town Center in Columbus Ohio comes to mind); in European and Asian cities they're naturally integrated into their urban environments so you can just walk over there in 5 minutes without having to worry about how you'll get there

[@majorfallacy5926]

"This video is about my own research" Oh, so it's going to be about how urban planning data is a pain in the ass? Yep it is. Have you considered access to public transport in your research? If no, that is probably a big factor. Some of the most popular ones i know (in europe) follow a subway line or at least have a bus or two. I don't know if that falls into "transit mall" because i've never heard that word before, but if so I think you absolutely should compare them to non-transit ones instead of discarding them!

[@alek488]

Major Fallacy in Boston our “pedestrian mall” has the blue line nearby which is a subway

[@raventhorX]

@Eragor the Kindhearted For those that don't know, the free mall ride covers the 16th st. mall area and light rail access is available every few blocks on the cross streets. Due to the availability of the mall ride taking up portions of 16th st. and possible the light rail on the cross streets I would think the 16th st. mall would count as a transit mall rather than a pedestrian mall. Honestly I would prefer transit malls over pedestrian malls anyway as you can still gain the boon of easy transportation, but the traffic is cut down enough that it feels like you could easily get anywhere in the mall by foot.

[@Its_shiki_time4876]

In new york there's a whole mall built next to a train station under ground because it had access to all the foot traffic

[@Marc83Aus]

Queen street mall in brisbane is in the heart of the city, and has a huge transport hub right underneath it.

[@royhoeksema5720]

Major Fallacy I’m pretty sure that in a lot of European towns and cities most people travel to their pedestrianized down towns by car. Especially smaller towns and cities. Public transport is crazy expensive nowadays except for students.

[@BoulderHikerBoy]

Wow! This one was outstanding! Great research!

[@alicepow593]

Great video! I studied for a semester in Limerick, Ireland and I loved the ped mall there. When I first visited Iowa City, the ped mall was one of my favorite features! Now that I live in Iowa City I make a point of going to the ped mall because it is such a nice spot lively with pedestrian traffic.

[@MightBeAPizza]

Greenville, NC also had a pedestrian mall, I believe from the 70’s through mid-90’s. In Greenville, we have a large college but the pedestrian mall wasn’t built exactly in the best location (more near our courthouse as opposed to the large university, East Carolina). I’m running for Mayor of my city, and I’ve floated the idea of a pedestrian mall or “plaza”, much closer to our university. The current strip of road has a popular restaurants, a few clubs, etc. Hopefully, if I win, we could try to build a successful Plaza again in our city.

[@Marc83Aus]

You'll certainly get backlash from businesses that rely on the road traffic, what strategy will be used to win them over? Also I wonder what affect closing that street would have on the traffic overall.

[@samuelmmmk181]

Answer him

[@cdhilton7124]

@@samuelmmmk181 Well, he's certainly off to a great start as a politician. The first opposition he encountered he immediately ignored.

[@samuelmmmk181]

@@cdhilton7124 Haha :D i know. I submitted it in writing and all. What more can I do?

[@benstoever]

Being a scientist myself, I found it very interesting to see a video that gives a bit more details on your actual research. I'm working in a different field, but improving data reuse is one of my main areas and seeing your example of creating your data set was interesting, as well. Happy that you share your data in some way, so that others can reuse it and reproduce your study better. In an ideal world, there would have been a database where you could enter your definition of a mall using, e.g., RDF statements, and then immediately get the results and easily add your own knowledge. We're getting to this in a few areas, but it's a long way to go for science as a whole.

[@lesleeherschfus707]

I lived in Kalamazoo (as a college student) between in the late 70’s and remember the mall as being wonderful ad convenient. I did a lot of shopping there. I have fond memories of it.

[@sundae5284]

Absolutely amazing research, I’m very impressed

[@RDTheAwesome]

The production quality of his videos has come so far since the beginning.

[@chairmanofrussia]

4:03 He calls the area right outside of downtown suburban. Downtown is such a small little urban patch. We don’t have real cities in this country outside of a select few. It’s really sad. My father from Europe once came to SF, and he said “Oh, so you do have real cities?” That right there is pretty damning.

[@jh8320]

The US has 3 cities: NYC, San Francisco, and New Orleans. Everywhere else is Cleveland.

[@dantompkins2584]

Your right Los Angels is like Cleveland 🤣🤔

[@chairmanofrussia]

@@dantompkins2584 I never said LA was like Cleveland (learn to read), and in fact I’ve argued numerous times elsewhere that LA is one of the few real cities that the country has.

[@gol.drodger5261]

I live in Europe but is struggling to understand your comment, why would you say US doesn’t have real cities?

[@michaelgriese1771]

There’s an interesting space near where I live in southeast PA. Exton, at the end of the main line, has a small outdoor mall-like area built to resemble a downtown in aesthetic. It accommodates car and foot traffic to many shops and restaurants, and the area’s Walmart is located right behind it. Exton has always been a place mostly used as a big shopping center and highway exit for the surrounding suburbs, but recently construction for new condo and apartment complexes are popping up all over the place. I wonder if someday the outdoor mall area will see more development, commercial or residential

[@AA_8184_1]

Love your channel. I'm sure you studied my city of Wilmington, DE, which had a pedestrian mall from the mid-1970s to the early-1990s.

[@fanficmistress]

I took a look at the spreadsheet and didn't notice the State Street ped mall in Madison WI. It would also fall into the close to university theory.

[@BokBarber]

Came here to say this

[@Latoso]

I noticed this one and the State Street Pedestrian Mall in downtown Chicago too.

[@dylanhill9202]

Technically a transit mall, not a ped mall. Buses go down it.

[@jonathantan2469]

It would technically be a transit mall, if I recall my time there in the mid 2000s. Private cars can't use it, but buses, taxis, and delivery vehicles can.

[@mattwales2734]

Note about the weather: I've been to the 16th Street Transit Mall in Denver, with 20 degree temperatures and falling snow. If the mall is good enough, people will brave and even enjoy the elements. Denver also refurbished their Union Station, which sits at the north end of the 16th Street Mall, with the state capitol anchoring the south end. Union Station is now the main hub of most of the RTD light rail and commuter rail lines. It's amazing seeing this place at work, and constantly improving.

[@inlonging]

How does it work, do they just carry their coats inside and put it on to go out?

[@mattwales2734]

@@inlonging They have coat rooms / racks by the front doors of the store.

[@inlonging]

@@mattwales2734 ah see that's something we don't have here in California. If it's rainy or cold outdoors you wear a coat and then have to carry it. So annoying. They will give plastic baggies to put your umbrella in but you're expected to keep it with you.

[@eraigames]

I've watched a few of your videos now and I just realized that you're also based in Sacto! Awesome! I love the city's grid layout!

[@ERRandDEL]

I'm happy that the Helena, MT one wound up on the list. It was the first time I'd ever seen anything like it in my life and I loved it.

[@DrewBrunning]

We have a pedestrian mall in Madison, WI that is alive and kicking. It wasn't built in your time frame, but it does seem to provide a positive example for "college towns" being important.

[@asdfljasdfaklsd1910]

I was in Redding, CA recently--their pedestrial mall isn't as vibrant as Charlottesville, but I can say it was doing better than this video would imply and contributed to Redding being a quite nice town with more life than expected.

[@emu5088]

Really cool video! Your stuff is amazing and I'm excited to binge it all soon! The two urban malls I'm familiar with are Jay street in Schenectady and Main Place Mall in Buffalo. I see Jay street is on there! But does the one in Buffalo not count because it's a dedicated transit-way? Definitely ticks almost all the boxes for a pedestrian mall, in my observations.

[@wolfetom10]

U.S. pedestrian malls I've been to in -- Charlottesville VA, very nice. Boulder CO, very nice and vibrant. Denver, CO -- old and tired -- the shops are mainly gone and it's overtaken by chain stores and beggars.

[@Blaqjaqshellaq]

The next question: How much have the cities that removed their pedestrian malls BENEFITED from doing so? (It's a pity that they were more numerous in smaller cities that were less well-suited to them.)

[@ivandiaz5791]

Exactly right. Declining city, with declining population, pedestrianizes a street. Doesn't magically fix its problems. De-pedestrianizes the street; did it fix it? If not, there's literally zero reason to think the pedestrianization had any effect whatsoever, let alone made the problem worse.

[@dlwatib]

Oh, it's pretty clear if you see a failure like Redding, CA that they made the problem worse with the pedestrianization. It's a total dead zone now. Not even a little life left in it.

[@MrJaaaaake]

@@ivandiaz5791 If I can't park my car or it takes me a long time to go downtown I don't go. I'm not waiting for the bus, then taking 35-40 minutes to get downtown plus another 15minutes to walk to where I need to be while having to sit in a vehicle that smells like body odour, piss and shit all while being cramped together with other people, while having to pay for it...

[@ivandiaz5791]

@@MrJaaaaake This is a fantastic example of literally the entire point. The idea is that a bus shouldn't be the least possible convenient way to get to an urban place, it should be the most convenient. Massively inefficient personal vehicles should be a very inefficient means of accessing downtown. You should not be rewarded with low travel times and convenient cheap or free parking for choosing to waste public space for your luxury mode of travel.

[@MrJaaaaake]

@@ivandiaz5791 It always will though because it has to stop at lights and pick up spots, as well as having a set take off time. You need to travel to the bus, be early otherwise it may leave earlier than the stated departure time, take time to get bus tickets or passes and then walk from the drop off to where you need to go. Public transportation needs to be off the roads. Underground trains or trains that hover on raised tracks. I do not go to Toronto because it's not worth the hassle of trying to get around. Takes way to long to cover even 2 miles.

[@narata1541]

I love the downtown mall in Charlottesville, VA! I hope many more of these pop up in other cities.

[@albiontomorrow6354]

I've heard it's nice and spacious for street brawls?

[@pierre-loupdurand7703]

Super interesting and well communicated!

[@zestymoo]

Ah! The Kalamazoo walking mall! I used to live near there and walked around it several times. They have a nice tea shop there. It's close to the Kalamazoo public museum too, which is nice.

[@johnnyi1337]

Keep up the good work, love your videos! I moved to a walkable city (Cluj-Napoca) to eliminate dependence on the car in order to get more daily exercise as a solution to my health problems. I firmly believe that a walkable city is the solution to many of the problems prevalent in the US; obesity, isolation, and having a large carbon footprint. If I had the money to support you in Patreon, I would. Let me know if there's anything else I can do to support your good work!

[@elijahcraig8479]

I saw the cover of the Charlottesville Downtown mall, had to watch!

[@vincentteoh]

i love how passionate you are

[@paulbroderick8438]

Well compiled. Thank you.

[@schmoab]

We have them in Denver and Boulder, so I assumed they were everywhere. It’s up to the cities to prevent them from becoming homeless encampments.

[@bariton3779]

Yeah, I live a few minutes from downtown and we have pedestrian malls everywhere, I just thought it was normal for most places.

[@christinalee7467]

16th Street Mall isn't on the Google Doc. It needs to be added.

[@cmarie16s16]

@@christinalee7467 Its because of the buses in the middle, so it doesn't count by this definition, even though it seems like a great example.

[@FRESNOSTATE1559]

I remember Fresno Fulton mall from when I was little it was popping bands would play and store's would be busy

[@qweennotcha1519]

Alex Sanchez sadly they put a road thru it which is nice but I definitely see why it died. Fresno got hotter, downtown was trashy and not safe along with parking being horrendous.

[@Alverant]

Thanks for making the spreadsheet public. I went to the University of Iowa and their ped mall is literally a few blocks from campus. It's as much of a part of the college as anything else. I have some good memories of it. My first job was in Dubuque when it had a ped mall and I never realized it.

[@Skittl1321]

I love the Iowa city ped mall. I think it benefits a ton from the students.

[@A2dy]

I loved the ped mall in Iowa city! Reminds me of the new thing they did with 3rd St. here in Davis!

[@TimLucasdesign]

Market Square in Knoxville Tennesse is a particularly charming and thriving example.

[@stvp68]

Tim Lucas And a lot newer than the ones he discusses, yes?

[@karenryder6317]

When I was a college student in the 1960s, I had no car. I loved the idea of taking a bus to downtown Providence and walking around without having to dodge traffic. I couldn't understand why it failed. It was a delightful shopping experience. From what was said here it probably was because Providence kept declining in population--a good idea that just couldn't stem the suburban sprawl.

[@BruceM8]

Fascinating report. I grew up in a small city that developed a pedestrian mall that has struggled but remains (Ithaca, NY) and have encountered them various places since then. One mall not on your list is the Fremont Street Experience in downtown Las Vegas, which is still there.

[@wagonet]

cool content, not sure why this was recommended to me but subbed!

[@pearspicker3345]

I like it when a city is pedestrian friendly it leaves a good memory of the city.

[@Milnoc]

4:27 Sparks Street Mall in Ottawa, Canada is still a pedestrian mall to this day.

[@sarahrobertson4629]

And it's still pretty meh (although, to be fair, downtowns tend to be dead on weekends regardless), and probably a cold wind tunnel in winter to boot. I googled it when I started watching this video to see if anything had changed since I last lived there. I think some of the buildings may be too tall for the width of the street.

[@lovehandr]

The Sparks Street Mall was one of the first, opening as a summer mall in 1960, the year after streetcars were removed. A lot of mistakes were made, including new buildings that faced inward instead of the street, government ownership of the north side (governments make lousy landlords for retail) and the opening of the nearby Rideau Centre (downtown indoor mall) that siphoned off business. There seems to be a bit of resurgence as the street is now lined with outdoor patios during the warmer months, and a number of festivals make use of the space. The opening of the new subway one block away may also help bring new customers. We will see what the future brings.

[@Milnoc]

@@lovehandr It's still getting worse. As you've said, the federal government is a lousy landlord. Before the pandemic, I lost my favourite luggage shop when the feds decided not to renew anyone's lease in one building.

[@brandonpohl2633]

I live in kalamazoo, and I absolutely love our mall. They have actually expanded it within the last several years or so.

[@draco2351]

Had the opportunity to visited the Pearl Street mall in Boulder as a college student on a field study trip last year. It was a gorgeous place to explore and very unique layout that I can certainly see needing that install base of people to maintain a thriving business model.

[@infernosgaming8942]

As a Colorado native, I can say with certainty that while Boulder might be the hive of scum and villainy for our state, but god damn is the atmosphere of Pearl Street nice.

[@jh8320]

Pearl street holds some of my happiest tween memories. Getting dropped off there in middle school with my friends was a rare taste of freedom in a car centric world.

[@FranciscoFRAO]

Hey!! I am from Puerto Rico and as far I am concern, there are 2 active street mall that fall within your definition. Let me know I can provide the location. I know we are not a state but we are part of the USA! Excellent job by the way!!!👍

[@djwestbrook36]

Francisco Colon He has the pedestrian mall spreadsheet in the description. I think you can add to it there if I’m not mistaken.

[@Suite_annamite]

I guess Puerto Rico tried to maintain certain characteristics from when it was still just part of the Spanish Caribbean. I went to school with your lovely Miss San Sebastian, BTW!

[@syxepop]

Francisco Colon, as a fellow "compatriota" (from Bayamon in San Juan Metro) I can tell the audience (while you email the host to include it in his document) where those 2 pedestrian malls are: OLD SAN JUAN - both Fortaleza and San Fransisco streets (going E to W) are completely pedestrian (only service trucks can enter like 2- 3 hours a day in the morning and wheeled trolleys the whole day) as traffic go through other parallel and going-through (N to S) streets. Tourist area perfect for walking (Old San Juan is hilly though). PASEO DE DIEGO - Jose de Diego Street (E to W), main of the downtown of the former town of Rio Piedras (sector of San Juan since 1952). Only about 2 blocks are fully pedestrian, the rest traffic goes by + the ones going-through N to S. Also has a closed air-conditioned mall, PLAZA DE DIEGO, in one of the buildings. There are so many closed stores there that doesn't deserve the closing anymore. This is the CRITICAL EYE of someone who wants those places to be SUCCESSFUL (one is to a point, but the other hasn't for ~ 15 years of mayors of 2 distinct political parties).

[@Housestationlive]

awesome channel you have here !

[@Evan_Adams]

Could you please do a video (when done moving) on Pedestrian Malls vs the Covid Safe Streets. What lessons to learn and what questions / data to collect today?

[@dengamleidiot]

"The problem" is that US' roads are just too wide. The take up 90 procent of the space, when you go out your door

[@shahbazfawbush]

2:16 That's a lot of parking space!

[@matthewdockter2424]

Great work on the research. Good work looking at the college data. This type of research will make our cities better in the future...although I never would think of doing it I'm glad someone out there is. Thanks!

[@georgek2499]

Great work dude.

[@Jablicek]

I prostulate that rather than the pedestrian mall taking the road from cars, but that horses and then cars invaded what were once public walkways.

[@MephistoDerPudel]

And sometimes earlier, these same streets were public toilets. I'm a big fan of removing cars from roads, but the argument isn't a good one.

[@Jablicek]

@@MephistoDerPudel Streets have been for walking on since two houses were placed close together but not adjoining. Our current streets would have the same issues of people pissing in them as footpaths if not for the cars whizzing by. Pardon the pun. Public areas have always had the ptoblem of being used as public toilets and rubbish disposal. The latter occurs on roads even to this day.

[@de132]

"How many pro sports stadiums built in the 60s or 70s are we still using today" A lot of the stadiums back then were "multi-purpose stadiums" that shared NFL and MLB tenants, but that fell out of fashion in the 1990s. Primarily because of Baltimore's Oriole Park at Camden Yards which was a retro inspired baseball stadium and led to teams getting separate stadiums. The Raiders and As are the only NFL-MLB co-tenants left and the Raiders are moving next year to Las Vegas, Nevada. For fun, here are all the major pro sports (NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL) stadiums and arenas used in the United States and Canada from the 1960s and 1970s: NFL: RingCentral Coliseum (Oakland Raiders ,1966, Raiders projected to move in 2020) Arrowhead Stadium (Kansas City Chiefs, 1972) New Era Field (Buffalo Bills, 1973) Mercedes-Benz Superdome (New Orleans Saints, 1975) MLB: Dodger Stadium (LA Dodgers, 1962) Angel Stadium (LA Angels, 1966) RingCentral Coliseum (Oakland Athletics, 1966, As projected to get a new stadium by 2023) Kauffman Stadium (Kansas City Royals, 1973) NBA: Madison Square Garden (New York Knicks, 1968†) NHL: Madison Square Garden (NY Rangers, 1968†) Nassau Coliseum (NY Islanders, 1972*, Islanders are projected to get new arena by 2021) † - Madison Square Garden in New York has had so many renovations in recent years that the interior parts of the arena are basically new * - The New York Islanders split their season between Nassau Coliseum in Uniondale, New York and the Barclays Center in Brooklyn, New York. The Islanders originally moved full time to the Barclays Center, but the arena was not built for hockey and sight lines aren't the best for it. The Islanders are projected to get a new arena in Belmont Park soon.

[@royhoeksema5720]

de132 Wait, there is a Nassau colosseum? That’s the name of the Dutch royal family: Van Oranje-Nassau! Fun to know the Dutch roots are still visible in New York.

[@de132]

@@royhoeksema5720 In the Long Island and New York City area, there's a lot of things named relating to the Dutch. The County where the arena is called Nassau County in Long Island. The colors of the county are the colors of the House of Oranje-Nassau. The Islanders also use the same colors as Nassau County to represent the county. The Knicks and Mets wear the same colors, the Knicks for the same reason as the Islanders and the Mets for an unrelated reason (the two colors of the two relocated New York baseball teams, Dodgers and Giants) Also, New York City's flag is the colors of the Flag of New York City is based on the Flag of Prince William of Oranje-Nassau. Brooklyn is named after Breukelen, the town in Utrecht, the Netherlands. Long Island includes Brooklyn and Queens, two of the five boroughs of New York City, and other cities outside of New York City such as Uniondale (where the Islanders' Nassau Veterans Memorial Coliseum is located). Most place names in the New York City area are either English, from Algonquin-speaking American Indian tribes such as the Mohegan, Delaware (Munsee), Shinnecock nations, or Dutch.

[@rakabog101]

Great video. Really liked it :)

[@jayski9410]

Well done, excellent research. The connection to college towns is something I'd never thought of before. But this video reminds me of a lecture I once heard back in the 1990's from a group of landscape architects (from Portland or San Francisco, can't remember for sure) - who advocated that if we'd just take the time to design streets, every street could be an inviting pedestrian space. Their primary criticism of cities was that all design efforts go into the buildings and the streets are just the incidental space in between. They had all sorts of studies and renderings showing how people react to block size, light pole type and even whether bus benches should be parallel or perpendicular to the street. I sure hope they're participating in this latest round of pedestrian spaces.

[@nickaugi275]

Can you do a video on the Minneapolis skyway?

[@chicagoakland]

Skyways in general could be a great topic. Des Moines and Minneapolis have thriving skyways, while Cincinnati is slowly getting rid of theirs.

[@clovekzbelej]

me, a european watching this video: ok but.... every single town/city's centre in europe is a pedestrian mall regardless of its age...

[@notthatguy4703]

Damn that's awesome but I didn't really ask. Nor do I care

[@AB-xl3pd]

@@notthatguy4703 You did care enough to write that reply

[@vanthom9185]

Y’all european superiority complex is getting out of hand

[@vanthom9185]

@Emperor Basil the Bulgar Slayer I’m actually 6’2 and only weigh about 150 lbs

[@zc7456]

Living In Sacramento and DOCO (the area showed in the beginning of the vid) is one of my favorite places to visit. not a whole lot of shops around and its small enough to be pleasant, but isn't suffocating. It also feels people, not consumer, oriented. So many people go to just hangout and there's no push to buy buy buy despite it being a commercial area

[@DugrozReports]

Grew up in Ottumwa, IA which is on the list. Ped mall was removed in the mid-80's -- I was pretty young, but I do remember controversy for years to come.