Malls Weren't Supposed to be Like This

Victor Gruen is considered the father of shopping malls, but he envisioned something more than shopping centers surrounded by asphalt parking lots.
Timestamps:
0:00 The Car Centric Shopping Experience
3:30 Purpose of a Mall
6:00 The Gruen Effect
7:09 Victor Gruen & Suburbia
11:22 Southdale Center
12:42 A Tragic Downgrading in Quality
14:29 The Golden Age of the Mall
15:20 Malls Are Dying
17:02 Chance for New Life
20:17 Leave Downtown, Downtown
Sources:
Mall Maker Victor Gruen, Architect of an American Dream
archive.org/details/mallmaker...
SouthTowne Crossing Commercial:
www.shopsouthtownecrossing.com/
Vehicle Trips By Purpose
nhts.ornl.gov/vehicle-trips
Mall Walkers of Meadowood Mall
mynews4.com/news/local/meet-t...
How Ikea mastered the Gruen effect
www.vox.com/2018/10/17/179896...
Customer Impulse Purchasing Behavior
www.jstor.org/stable/3150160
Impact of ambient odors on mall shoppers' emotions, cognition, and spending
www.academia.edu/15579860/Imp...
Why the inventor of the shopping mall denounced his dream
www.theguardian.com/artanddes...
Southdale Center: America's first shopping mall
www.theguardian.com/cities/20...
www.gruenassociates.com/proje...
Father of shopping centers disowns his progeny
www.newspapers.com/image/2229...
America's Suburban Experiment
www.strongtowns.org/curbside-...
This Man Is the Father of Modern American Suburbia
• This Man Is the Father...
Victor Gruen Wanted to Make Our Suburbs More Urban. Instead, He Invented the Mall
www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...
Southdale, the World's First Shopping Mall, Celebrates 60 Years
www.minnesotamonthly.com/arts...
Weather-Conditioned Shopping Center Opens
timesmachine.nytimes.com/time...
Nov. 28, 1956: Frank Lloyd Wright at Southdale
www.startribune.com/nov-28-19...
The rise and fall of the American mall
www.businessinsider.com/the-r...
Malls are dying. The thriving ones are spending millions to reinvent themselves.
www.washingtonpost.com/busine...
25% of U.S. malls are expected to shut within 5 years.
www.cnbc.com/2020/08/27/25per...
Reno Entertainment District
redreno.com/

[@ahabitria]

It's nice to see a different perspective on malls as civic spaces. In the Philippines and in many Southeast Asian countries, malls are not dying, they're thriving. They are a one-stop shop. They have clothing stores, hardware, grocery, pharmacy, churches, exhibition centers, cinemas, restaurants, gardens, banks, office spaces, and more. In contrast to American Malls, Southeast Asian malls also double as transit hubs. Malls here do serve as third places, because of lack of open space, and the want to escape the heat of the tropics. And you can spend the whole day without buying anything inside the malls here.

[@danielkelly2210]

Malls in the US were doing okay until the late 1990s. E-Commerce really killed them. Also, there were just *way* too many malls built in the 80s and 90s (the US has an insane amount of retail space per capita compared to any other country). They were built on tax credits and started poaching each other's business. A new mall would open and stores and customers would move to that one, leaving a blighted mall behind. Mall owners also became more aware of how expensive they were to maintain compared to traditional shopping centers. The rise of free-standing "big box" stores like Walmart, Target, Costco, Sam's Club, etc. really cut into their business as well. Some malls are doing fine, others are just getting by, and many are failing, being torn down and redeveloped into outdoor "lifestyle centers" or into new housing developments. Malls in the US will often fight against having a transit stop there (at least they used to) because they think it will bring an "undesirable element" to the mall. With some exceptions, they are meant to be accessed by people in cars, period.

[@ahabitria]

@Zaydan Alfariz there's a shift in what people do in malls, especially during and after the pandemic. The mall nearest me replaced some of its cinemas to more restaurant spaces. Some stores have closed and are yet to be replaced, but business is picking up after loosened restrictions. E-commerce does have its merits, but we cannot deny that malls here in SE Asia provide a different purpose to people compared to its American counterparts, thus making it more resilient to changing times.

[@junirenjana]

@Zaydan Alfariz Malls that are "dying" in Jakarta are those that generally don't offer other experience than shopping tho, so it's still more or less the same as the reason why malls in the US are dying. But if you've been to an American mall, the difference to SEA mall is about the difference between heavens and earth lol. Malls in the US are generally suburban with huge parking lots, very spread out (like, only one or two storeys but wide enough that you have to visit different parts by car), and offer very little entertainment than shopping.

[@junirenjana]

Also dense residential area around (or even on top of) malls are very common in SEA, ensuring that the malls will always have regular customers. One in my city is surrounded by dozens of public housing buildings.

[@realemperorkuzco]

Yea, like every "city" in the Ph has at least one mall, and of course there is MOA.

[@skitlus335]

US malls don't have grocery shops? That's freaking dumb. Never seen a mall without at least one grocery shop in any other country I've been to.

[@MrJamieBattle]

It’s very rare in the USA to have a grocery store. I even count Target and Walmarts as grocery stores if they’re in a mall. There are a couple wegmans in malls too. Some have Costco’s included as well

[@skitlus335]

@@MrJamieBattle That's sad. IMO the strongest selling point of shopping centers is that they can concentrate multiple categories of shops in one easily available spot, so it's absurd to hear that they regularly lack the most essential shop there is. When I visit one of the shopping centres near my home (all accessible by public transport and on foot, naturally), we usually end the trip with a stop at one of the supermarkets there so I don't have to spend time going somewhere else afterwards.

[@danielkelly2210]

Usually, they don't. I don't think I've ever seen a grocery store in a US mall. They're mostly dominated (I'd say 90%) by clothing/apparel stores with some "specialty stores" that sell things like electronics, kitchenware, gifts, and novelties, with a few restaurants and snack places.

[@skitlus335]

@@danielkelly2210 of course, in the countries I've been to it's also the norm that the center is dominated by clothing shops and the occasional hardware, interior or electronics shop, but supermarkets are basically compulsory. My nearest shopping center right now has two supermarkets, and yet another two across the (one-lane w/ bike path) street next to it. :D Whoever plans this stuff in the US has a lot to learn if they want to make people happy to be there.

[@danielkelly2210]

@@skitlus335 I won't pretend to know why this isn't the case in the US, but it just isn't. Though I have a few ideas... one is Americans have been conditioned to buy huge amounts of groceries at once. The typical US grocery store is located in a strip mall or power center. Loading all those groceries is easier if you can just drive right up to the front or wheel your cart out to your car, something you can't do in an enclosed mall.

[@pacificostudios]

When light rail transit was built from Minneapolis to Bloomington in 2004 or so, Mall of America was adamantly against having a train station next to the Mall. They relented when 1) they saw how many people were crossing the street to enter from the mall from the train station, and 2) they finally realized that most of their customers were coming from south Minneapolis, Richfield, and Bloomington, because they could not compete with malls deeper in suburbia. Ten years later, the line was extended to provide easy access to the mall. Now thanks to a 2019 renovation, the train stops under the mall, and it is so easy to get to the mall, many people take the train from MSP airport to the Mall when they have a long layover. There's a real lesson in the potential for malls to benefit from rail transit.

[@Gail1Marie]

I like the Minneapolis light rail system, and wouldn't go to a Twins game any other way (I park at Ft. Snelling). But when the light rail was connected from downtown to MOA, crime at MOA increased (to include shootings and even murders). I don't know of an easy answer to the problem, but if people don't feel a space is safe, they won't go there.

[@pacificostudios]

@@Gail1Marie - That's a bit like blaming the divorce rate on the introduction of microwave ovens into American homes. It's been scientifically proven that as soon as people started using microwaves in American homes in the 1970s, more married couples started getting divorced. You can't argue with the statistics!

[@Gail1Marie]

@@pacificostudios So what's your explanation for the increase in shootings at MOA? I can't remember a single one before the light rail was connected. Why did MOA have to institute rules requiring teens to have adult chaperones, and limit the number of teens who can congregate together? If you don't have access to a car, how do you think you got to MOA?

[@pacificostudios]

@@Gail1Marie Ask someone that cares about your opinions.

[@Hafiere]

@@Gail1Marie I think that's more correlation than causation. Since there are more people in a given place due to easier access via the light rail, there's simply more people that could commit crime. It would be more interesting if the crime rate per visitor increased with the access to light rail. Shootings, meanwhile, seem like a mostly american thing that is drawn to any place with a large concentration of people, like a successful mall, a school, or a nightclub. As far as I'm aware, the malls in my country don't have the same crime and violence issue as in the U.S. Maybe because all the entrances have guards posted to search for banned items, like firearms. Ditto on the train stations having x-ray scanners plus the guards.

[@christiankevinmunoz4805]

Malls have become a desolate wasteland and the parking lots are 2/3 empty. What a terrible waste of space.

[@KoroWerks]

The parking lots are 2/3rds empty on Black Friday.

[@carstarsarstenstesenn]

way more than 2/3 empty. parking lots are designed for what used to be maximum capacity on black friday but these days there's less in person shoppers even on black friday.

[@jfbeam]

They weren't so empty when they were built. Today, they've been replaced by the internet, and cheaper free standing locations. I agree they should've been knocked down and rezoned more than a decade ago, but the investment groups that own them would rather leave them rotting than spend any money on them. (and no one is going to pay what they think they used to be worth, because the building sitting on it is beyond worthless -- a great deal of money will be required to remove it.)

[@thetrainguy1]

I say tear them down and build a park.

[@anubizz3]

How about small bikable shopping distinct?

[@Bobrogers99]

One of the villains is zoning. Most areas segregate land uses, so places to live, work and shop are separated. We need mixed use zoning, so that people can walk to shop and walk to work and won't necessarily need to use a car. I have thought that a dying mall could modify inactive wings for senior or affordable housing. As a retired senior, I'd love to be able to walk out my door into a controlled-climate "street" to do my shopping and to socialize. But present laws in many places don't permit that.

[@davidty2006]

Think alot of people do want atleast 1 pub within walking distance... Long as it isn't a weatherspoons.

[@Gail1Marie]

@@davidty2006 In St. Paul, Minnesota, in neighborhoods built in the 1920s before everyone had a car, bars (pubs) were allowed on many corners. One of our friends lived next door to one. The kids would build a snowman around the fire hydrant in front of their house, knowing some drunk wandering out of the bar would kick it over (and probably break his foot!)

[@NineInchTyrone]

Excellent idea

[@Jacksparrow4986]

That sounds awful. Maybe if you live in the desert and it's regularly over 30°C that would be the way to go but why live in the desert? You are replicating the suburbanite idea of always beeing in a climate-controlled box which sounds nice and comfy, but it is bad for you. No experiencing of seasons lead to a disconnect and your comfort zone will shrink towards a very small box.

[@Bobrogers99]

@@Jacksparrow4986 You're correct if you confine yourself to the climate-controlled box. But especially for older folks, there are many days when it's too hot or too cold (or raining or snowing) to walk outdoors. In the winter in New England it's often too icy underfoot to walk safely.

[@Hawxxfan]

5:00 I can't believe someone would be genuinely surprised by how healthy they could be (at any age) after walking every day. It's so sad how our infrastructure and health are physically intertwined for the worse in this country

[@MustraOrdo]

I don't think the petrol and pharmaceutical industries are sad about this intentional design.

[@JAM661]

If you want to walk then do it. But blaming design of store for people lack of exercise is stupid. Meanwhile most people do not live within walking distance to most store unless they live in a city. Or is there suppose to have store every block so people can walk to them. Meanwhile if you have problems with the design go complain to the city council who approve this stuff. Oh yea people never show up for that or even show up to vote for the people who make the choices that effect them the most. Which is your city, country and state elected officials and not the one in Washington DC. If American want to complain maybe they should understand the system and how it works. It is like people whining about corporations and yet those are business you could be a part owner of just by buying the stock and be part of the profits or loses.

[@caseymurray7722]

@@JAM661 It's extremely hard to unfuck 70 years of shitty city design. In a properly designed society you do not have to own a personal means of transportation to survive. Most people don't live in walking distance to a store because it's illegal to build anything other than single family housing in most areas and the stores don't coexist alongside housing. If you had a community design that allows walking as a means of transport people would walk. If your life is like the majority of Americans the most walking done in a week is to and from a car. Again this was decided as car sales took off decades ago and the infrastructure is already in place. Similar to internet, since companies own cable lines they can have monopolies and jack prices. Ideally the lines would be government owned just like electricity and competition would actually exist. Sure if thigs were just getting started a vote would do something. That's why so many young people are frustrated because they have to deal with the ignorance of the past without any means to make a meaningful difference within their own lives. Just because you have a vote or have a dollar to spend doesn't mean that one person will make an impact. It takes a majority and a fair system which we don't currently have.

[@spiritualanarchist8162]

It's a bit ironic how these elderly people drive to a mall to have a walk. I just realize how losing one's licence must be hell for the average elderly American ! . My father had to give uo his licence age 82, because he couldn't pass the tests anymore . Luckily he can bike , walk and take public transport. Otherwise he would be stuck .Or maybe the U.S is more lenient about testing old drivers ?

[@katie7748]

​@@JAM661couldn't agree more

[@zilsenoj5129]

As a kid, I've always loved the idea of living in a mall, and so do many others. Malls have lots of potential, developers just don't like taking risks. If you actually fleshed out Gruen's idea, you'd have an indoor downtown with residential spaces, shops, medical facilities, etc. These large concrete shells exist everywhere. What if we kept the storefronts and turned the rest of the empty big boxes into housing? Then expand by eating away at the massive parking lots. Provide a transit link directly to downtown. Now, you've built an indoor car-independent suburb. Perfect for a place like Tucson with a hot climate. But we should flesh out Victor Gruen's idea, the world deserves to see at least one example of what could have been.

[@sesamestreetfriendsbarneyb3098]

Same i wanted to live in a mall to like the stores at the second floor could be apartments. also some malls in asia have train systems in them bc they are really big

[@Sicakasot]

😮 I never thought of it like that! It sounds like a futuristic city and it's sad that the decisions made in the 1950s took that future away from us. The developers knew what they were doing when they shutdown Victor's idea. I agree lets bring it on

[@fredashay]

I believe that's called an "arcology" where people live in a single ginormous monolithic building that contains apartments, retail shops, restaurants, bars, schools, hospital, recreational facilities with a pool and playground, a small sports complex with bowling and tennis and volleyball, corporate offices, professional services, etc. Sure, you're still gonna want to leave and travel to visit friends and relatives or just go shopping somewhere else once in a while, so you're still gonna need to own a car (and there's nothing wrong with that -- it's called freedom and convenience created by technological progress) If done right, it sounds ideal. But if done wrong, it could become a authoritarian communist slum.

[@KRYMauL]

His original vision was actually more akin to the life style center, but he was never able to make it correctly. He honestly should’ve work with Disney to design the mall as he had the same ultimate vision as Walt.

[@retroryan838]

That’s an interesting idea. You could turn an empty department store into housing by putting up new walls in it. No pointless demolition and it pays respect to the mall.

[@mdhazeldine]

I don't think malls are 100% bad. I like the fact that they're walkable and being indoors in a climate controlled environment is great if it's really cold or really hot outside. I also quite like the fact that some of them have play areas for kids, food courts, fountains, trees etc. They're especially good when they're in a city centre and have good transit access, plus entertainment options like cinemas nearby. What I dislike is when they're on the edge of town and your only way to get there is by car and the huge car parks surrounding them (making them look ugly on the outside). I also dislike the privately owned nature of them, with private security guards walking around making sure you're not misbehaving. It would be great to have a covered shopping area in a downtown with all of that stuff, but that's publicly owned, where citizens have the same rights as on a public street. Places like this do exist in Europe and the UK, but not many of them are truly publicly owned unfortunately.

[@Andreamom001]

I've heard malls are a good place to play Pokemon Go. In winter, I drive around to play. Being able to walk around a mall would be nice. No malls near enough to me, though.

[@docvideo93]

Excellent point! My college town had a mall anchoring the downtown. You could park at the mall, walk through and shop at the mall, and popped out the back onto Main Street and do more shopping.

[@bonniemoerdyk9809]

@@docvideo93 ... sounds like the one in Urbana IL, there was also a large hotel w/a castle theme. The restaurant opened onto the mall, and could be used by all. Not sure it still exists, last time I was there around 2000-2005, it was dying then.😥

[@ChasmChaos]

Oxford's Covered Market comes to mind. Or NYC's Chelsea Market. Or London's Spitalfields Market.

[@Nempo13]

All stores are privately owned. Every single store you have ever entered is privately owned, can have security guards (many do) and can toss you out for literally any reason they want. This belief that stores have to be open for everyone is some weird brain gymnastics certain demographics have began thinking...which is why so many stores are shutting down now. Thieves and those who want to defame and damage at random need to be kept out of stores. Those stores on the public street can toss you out just as quickly as well. The security guards making sure you aren't misbehaving, are doing what police should be doing everywhere else. In small towns you see police walking the main areas just like a security guard walks in a mall. To stop people from misbehaving. If security/police are visible and seen being active it keeps miscreants from doing things and they move on to easier targets. Why do you hate the privately owned nature of them? You have never had to work for, or work with the government have you? Private industry does in a day what takes the government a week or two. This is not an exaggeration. If we privatized more of what our government controls in a vice grip, things would happen faster while being both safer and more efficient/user friendly.

[@caseymurray7722]

It's very easy to fix the aspect of malls dying. Have them serve as a transit hub and offer more business than mainly clothing. Having a grocery store, barber shops, recreational facilities, etc, would bring in so much more people. Malls are like 80 percent clothing versus one small street downtown that has restaurants, candy shops, a bank, and even a rock climbing gym. This diversity only works when there's a way to get there other than by car though.

[@jasonreed7522]

I definitely think any major mall in town should be served by atleast 1 quality transit line, and possibly even be a hub for the system. They could even serve as an anchor to the system in smaller cities.

[@caseymurray7722]

@@jasonreed7522 We need better transit it general. Utilizing and expanding our current rail lines would drastically improve everything. My small hometown has an Amtrak line running right through it but no stop. My college has a freight line running right through it but no passenger rail. They're rapidly expanding and have a parking problem already. Rail is a great way to connect these smaller areas. Especially in areas where highway expansions killed business.

[@jimsteele9261]

When I lived in Flint, the local mall did have a grocery store. I didn't much care for it. When buying groceries, you want to load up the car and head for home, so you could unload the frozen and refridgerated goods right away. So you had to go to the mall stores first then the grocery, maybe even moving the car in the process. The notion of hauling a couple weeks worth of groceries home on a bus or train is ridiculous, as is going to the store every couple days to restock. Those of us who live in the burbs like it, in spite of what urban snobs may think. Those big parking lots are NOT built for cars, they're built for PEOPLE who use cars. Save us all from fools who try to tell us how we should live. :-)

[@caseymurray7722]

@@jimsteele9261 Going to the store every couple days for groceries that you can actually carry back isn't ridiculous. When you have to drive or commute far to a store it is. Suburbs suck for any public transportation so I can see how it would be awful there. If you have say a grocery store in waking distance from your house isn't not a chore but again suburbs cause spread and less density means car dependent travel. Cars as a means of transport are almost the most inefficient system you can create. The issue is the way our housing has been built destroys any hope of usable transit because of needing a bus to get you home from airports/rail and needing to get from a bus stop to your house. Suburbs kills all walkability which destroys both commerce of the area too. Urban areas have both business and housing while rural areas do as well. Suburbs are a block of land used incredibly poorly to house people. I do not see any single reason why they exist other than to create redlining and separation of races or to pander to the falsity of both a personal property and cooperative community in one area.

[@johnjohnX90]

This is the case here in the Philippines, or atleast in Metro Manila, a car-centric city. Malls here are intertwined with public transit, so much so that one of the main train lines, the MRT, has malls on almost every station. A lot of the malls here almost always have everything you would need, from salons, to groceries/supermarkets, to clothing/retail shops, cinemas, even bowling alleys, which makes it a third space for a lot of families, workers, couples etc., especially those without cars that couldn't access parks and green spaces outside the metro.

[@herlescraft]

I like the difference between American malls and the Italian ones. In Italy malls usually comprise of a bunch of smaller shop usually orbiting a large grocery super market placed at the center of the building

[@PotatoSmasher420]

Same in Czech republic. Typical layout is a supermarket downstairs, small shops above, food court and cinema in the highest. And no gigantic parking lot. Either a multilevel garage at the outskirts of the city, or no garage at all in the city center (use public transport.).

[@NavaSDMB]

They're the same in Spain; some supermarkets even have specific satellites so you know that if a mall's anchor is a Misupermercado there will be a Mismascotas and a Misgafas (names invented). And I assume that, in Italy as in Spain, if they're not in a walkable location they've got public transportation.

[@myra0224]

I think it's something we in Europe did right, as it's the same in Belgium as well. I'm glad we don't have those monstrosities as in the US, but actually useful spaces during hot summer days or when it's raining so you can still go out and be shielded from the weather

[@AdmiralBison]

so going by the posts, the common thing it seems. Smaller stores, more community and land is more efficiently used with a positive emphasis and impact on the human condition. i.e. people are not treated as consumer automatons to serve mega corporations and their shareholders. There is more to life than just feeding the Capitalist machine and the 1% rich who sit on top of it.

[@eazydee5757]

@@PotatoSmasher420It’s like that in Thailand as well.

[@recyclespinning9839]

Malls had a fatal flaw. The rent is only affordable for big corporations. The average person can't open up a business there. The suburban sprawl is just built into the design that was already there.

[@supertuber120]

Yeah, years ago a friend of mine wanted to open a kiosk at a mall. But it never happened cause it turned out rent would've been $10,000/month! I'm not even talking about a store. This is just one of those little kiosks in the walkway between the stores.

[@yuki-sakurakawa]

Wonder how these kiosks could do this. Never see anybody really buy anything from them...but yet they are still there.

[@Gail1Marie]

It depends. When a mall starts to lose its anchor stores, the rent on smaller units can drop significantly. Our local mall now has four spaces rented to a non-chain furniture store, plus boutique-type non-chain stores like a candy store, costume jewelry store, wig store, and boot store. That's one of the signs that a mall is in trouble, in fact--lots of mom-and-pop stores replacing national chains. (We lost our Sears three years ago and our Forever 21 shortly thereafter.)

[@kathleenchilcote9127]

@@Gail1Marie our mall starting losing big box stores then whole sections were shut down. We list bigger box anchor stores ..now it's closed and being torn down.

[@bonniemoerdyk9809]

Yes! You're so right! Also, if for some reason a store has to open a little late because the key-holder didn't make it there on time (car wreck, blizzard, ect.), they are fined, very heavily I might add. If a store decides to not open on a Sunday for instance, they pay a hefty fine each week for that. Also in the contract between the store and the Mall, every 5-10 years a store must do a complete remodel/face-lift to bring it up to the latest trends in design! ... which can be a financial disaster to a mom & pop store.

[@edselgreaves6503]

I live in Asia and they refuse to build malls anymore unless they can attach a condo and/or office spaces along with it to guarantee foot traffic. The area I was living in during the pandemic lockdowns had a mall, apartment, park, lake, and hospital right next to it for people to easily access. Such good infrastructure.

[@mananshah9015]

hmm i live in asia and ive not seen the office rule atleast in the country i live. where are you from?

[@edselgreaves6503]

@@mananshah9015 Malaysia

[@RPSchonherr]

Most new malls in the US are like that. They are mixed-use. One area of the property has apartments. This video is looking at malls built in the 1970's. Much has changed since then.

[@HrHaakon]

In Norway, they're often built around transit hubs. So if you're in say, Bergen West, your local hub is going to be Loddefjord, which again connects you to other places. Which means that you're going to pass by that place anyway, so you're pretty much guaranteed to have a bunch of people showing up on the mall anyway. They also offer park&ride parking out of the goodness of their hearts, and definitively not because it means more people will stop by the mall. The mall also have stuff like the library, social services, etc. attached, so you have plenty of reasons for stopping by. Those malls are not going under anytime soon, but they're also not quite as large as the US ones. They're more like a small bet on the future that paid off, and then they've been added to, or removed from until it grows into the size that works. Kind of a Strong Malls approach I guess?

[@jivanjovan]

​​@@mananshah9015 Well these types of malls are almost a given in new (90s onwards) developments throughout Southeast Asia. Expensive apartments pride themselves in having direct access to a prestigious mall and vice versa. Hotels and offices are common attachments as well. Every mall strives to be the most luxurious as possible to outcompete each other and that coincides with development of other amenities, as well as hiding parking lots underground as much as possible to show off their glitzy facade. ~Jakarta

[@jessebowen1879]

I've seen my local mall get rid of the "hangout " aspect. They stopped the mall walkers, teens aka mall rats . And the movie theater, arcade.. guess what? They lost all the regular customers they had... people want more then the gap and Macy's.. malls are committing retailing suicide

[@dmandman9]

They even got rid of things like the fountains where people used to gather and socialize while their spouse or parents shopped. Now the only seating is in the food court. Even the food court seating is just for eating, not socializing.

[@humanecities]

21:03 I was thinking “That street doesn’t look tooooo bad…” And then it zoomed out… 😢

[@JH-pe3ro]

Since I've been playing Cities Skylines lately, my kneejerk response to suburban problems is now "Robert Moses gone urbanist": as soon as a problem arises, you have an excuse to bulldoze everything in the area around the problem and put in a completely re-envisioned district with more efficient land use, a better transit corridor and protected bike paths. The silver lining of dead malls is that actually, it's possible to do that with the site without displacement. (You'd have to also bulldoze the whole adjacent stroad to get the transit in, though, which might be harder.)

[@jasonreed7522]

I recently had a realization that some of the largest malls could probably have a transit stop in the basement and sell off or otherwise redevelop the oversized parkinglot. But yes, abandoned malls are ideal places to redevelop because its a massive lot with nobody living on it.

[@nlpnt]

You could just narrow the street and use the rest of the stroad's width for transit. Start with BRT and you could do that with paint.

[@jfbeam]

Too bad the real world isn't as simple as the swipe of a mouse in a video game. How many millions did you spend on permits? How long did you have to want for them? How many millions more poured into "hazmat" clean up? (some malls will be old enough to have asbestos in them.)

[@Amir-jn5mo]

Amen brother. I'm sitting at a 50k city currently and the widest road i have is a 4 way one way road in industrial complex. All my residential, commercial and downtown areas are two lane trams or roads with bike lane. No traffic issues whatsoever.

[@KRYMauL]

This is why California and several other states are saying that all malls should include housing. It’s easier to add density to an empty lot.

[@IronmanLIIII0]

I moved to the Philippines a year ago and the inner city malls here are a marvel to behold. Stretching several city blocks and as much as 10 or more floors these places are the heart and soul of major urban areas. These malls are serviced by well-developed inexpensive mass transit systems as well as cheap private cabs tricycles (motorcycles with enclosed side cars and Jeepneys (old, modified WWII jeeps stretched and converted to commuter buses). The malls contain most every American retailer plus many retailers unique to Asia swimming pools amusement rides and even church services are held in many malls.

[@TOCC50]

America is one giant parking lot

[@kjp8251]

I'm so glad that lady's arteries are no longer blocked.

[@humanecities]

I had to run some errands the other day, and the best tool for the job happened to be a car. Once I parked, I had to walk soooo far from shop to shop that I seriously considered driving to the other parking lot. Some of these places are quite dystopian. Walkable streets are great for everyone, even if you happened to have driven there.

[@ethancrisp3491]

Even if the next store i need is in the same parking lot i will just drive over there and park closer. There are rarely good spots to walk from store to store and I dont want to walk across an entire parking lot.

[@humanecities]

@@ethancrisp3491 Parking lots impermeable for both pedestrians and water!

[@jfbeam]

@@humanecities Not necessarily. There are permeable pavements. ('tho few will pay for them)

[@humanecities]

@@jfbeam oh! I’ve not heard of these. Do you have any I can look up to learn more about?

[@jfbeam]

@@humanecities You're on a Google property, so I assume you know how to use Google. (Practical Engineer made a video about it about 2 years ago)

[@TheStickCollector]

You can fit a mini transportation system inside the building.

[@randgrithr7387]

We can build stroads inside the mall!

[@Humulator]

Take of that roof, put some tram tracks in, put some trams in, turn the parking lot into houses, boom a walkable community!

[@ffdave117]

I was 16 in 1980. No internet, no cell phones, everyone was at the mall on the weekends. The parking lot was full. That same Mall in 2023 is completely different than it was in 1980. The good stores are gone and the parking lot is always empty.

[@bchristian85]

It's not just online shopping. It's the evaporating middle class. High-end malls are doing well. The middle class malls, the ones we all loved as teenagers (if you were born pre-2000), are the ones disappearing. Another factor is they built far too many of them, especially during the 2000s. The retail boom was out of control for the few years before the 2008 recession happened.

[@charlesrodriguez7984]

@@bchristian85i think these dead malls can be turned into proper walkable cities within cities.

[@nimeshinlosangeles]

That was very insightful at 9:25 that the suburban lifestyle makes it tempting to just reconstruct the world in your own home - because it's such a pain in the ass to get out into the world if you have to drive everywhere.

[@Nico_M.]

And this is one of the reasons Americans want bigger and bigger houses. In dense walkable places with plenty of third places, there are times when you feel that your home is just the place you store your things, because you spend so much time outside of it that only go back to sleep.

[@jfbeam]

@@Nico_M. A big house is a status symbol. But, yes, over time, people tend to fill the space they have. As for the "man cave", we built it out of convenience (it's there, and we can use it as much as we want, whenever we want), and stumble into it's economy (it quickly pays for itself given the cost of a movie ticket, bowling/pool/arcade, night at the bar, ...)

[@anubizz3]

Hmm I wonder why all my University friend, move to this depressing suburb area with big house once we start having children? We used to live in 15min city with bike line and just 12 km from CBD....... I am still living in the same neighborhood. the reason I still live in this area not because its bike-able but because its public transport and I love beach. but if we have second one there is no question we will move to that depressing suburb you hate so much. because we know in reality as long as there is good public transport their live not much worse than us.

[@CrAzYnAdEz]

I personally love driving. Especially since I have a nice car which I enjoy. I agree that it can be a pain in the ass to get out into the world if you have to drive everywhere but when I lived in the city I thought it was even worse to have to rely on busses and trains all the time. You have to go by their schedule, pay every time you ride them, they are usually crowded and you may have to stand, they still require masks in most cities, etc. In the winter when there is a snowstorm and I'm nice and warm in my car I always feel bad for the people at bus stops standing in the cold all the time. I knowsome urbanists love that lifestyle but it's not for me.

[@Gail1Marie]

@@jfbeam My husband and I bought a 1,550-square-foot house and have resisted the temptation to move into a larger one. We'd only get MORE junk if we did. Instead, we paid down the principal on this house and had it paid off in 13 years. Is it a little small? Yes. But I'd rather be mortgage-free.

[@philinator71]

It's interesting seeing the fall of many malls in the US. It's a different story here in Australia. Shopping centres here are very popular and usually packed with people. A few shopping centres near me in fact all went through a multi million dollar renovation and expansion and they are still busy. Major shops here tend to contain everything from groceries, cinema, clothing retails, restaurants, optomotrists, entertainment specialty stores and more. It often seen as a destination and a one stop shop with public transport hubs near by.

[@jarico_minecraft6637]

I think this is the best way to do malls

[@Notverysupercoach]

They also have parking lots in the biggest ones at least underground. And out of the way of all the pedestrians

[@richardkbreuer]

Sadly, here, in Vienna, Austria, we welcomed the shopping malls in the 1980s because America. Now, we have several malls in and around the city and one of the biggest in all of Europe. Victor Grün didn't see that coming, I guess. The clips from Vienna are taken in the inner city, which is really beautiful but it's mostly for tourists and rich people.

[@idnwiw]

True, but there are little victories. Donauzentrum took down the parking garage in the back, probably not enough demand. And they had to retrofit a tram line and bike lane to Gewerbepark Stadlau as cars alone didn't bring in enough costumers

[@NavaSDMB]

An American friend and his Scottish wife made the specific choice to _not_ get a pool. Years after they moved into that house, people still wondered "but... you don't have a pool?" "Nope." "But, but, but..." Instead, they'd left their yards open; they were just grass, with some items that could be installed when the weather invited (a high net, a swing set...). Their yard was the suburb's public playground and, as he liked to say, "my children have 173 pools to choose from".

[@PowerSynopsis]

God, that shopping center looks like a miserable hell.

[@davidty2006]

Majority were built in the brutalist style. One in my town is one of them with only 1 bit that was a old building from 1902 that looks nice.

[@atm1947]

There’s a lot of malls in the US that are very bizarrely placed that have a lot of potential. In my hometown (south of San Francisco), there’s a dying mall that sits right on top of a metro station and is a 5 minute walk from the local passenger heavy rail station. It would be the perfect place to build dense housing alongside limited commercial and civic spaces. Unfortunately, the mall and it’s land is currently expected to be bought by a biotech company which hopes to make it a corporate campus. It’s likely to be primarily focused on research, with paltry levels of residential and commercial areas.

[@zilsenoj5129]

Lots of malls were built up to take advantage of tax credits, and then sold off. Cincinnati actually had like 26 malls at one point because of this.

[@empirestate8791]

Seems like a good opportunity for a massive mixed-use development with housing, retail, and even ample new offices for the biotech company.

[@bootmii98]

I already know you're talking about Tanforan. Fun fact: San Bruno Caltrain is an infill option for BART.

[@empirestate8791]

@@bootmii98 I don't understand why they built the BART and Caltrain stations separately. Makes sense to have just made them one station. Transferring would be easier, and the San Bruno Caltrain station is much closer to San Bruno's downtown than the San Bruno BART. At least the Tanforan redevelopment will add a lot of density (commercial, residential, and office)!

[@atm1947]

@@empirestate8791 that’s the stated objective, but I’m expecting it to become a large office park with commercial around the transit connections and limited dense housing. Having lived here for 20+ years, I’ve lost count how many times I’ve seen a tech company buy valuable land near transit connections, and still turn it into a soulless hellscape of asphalt and glass.

[@brendaryan306]

A big part of the problem is the US is car-centric, not public transport. I like taking the bus to downtown Minneapolis for work but even better using the skyway system so I don't have to go out into the elements and deal with traffic/pedestrian lights during my lunch break to get some food, do errands, and shop. I feel safer than walking through a parking garage alone.

[@schabernack.]

from a German perspective, I never understood malls being portrayed as hang-out spots in most of the American teen-focused media I watched. I think a big aspect of it is how I was raised very critical of consumerism (is that a word?) by my parents. But also they are crowded, loud, always busy, there is no fresh air and funnily enough the commute is one of the most painful aspects of going to a mall in a city with a tram to go around town and have the ability to shop in the centre as well as other small stores everywhere. Suffice to say I would not survive in an even more car-dependant country. However, learning from the urbanist channels I watch about how little walkability there is in the US I understand now that people hang out there. I also noticed it being more atttactive to younger people here but I think mostly it's more about "seeing and being seen", you know getting a burger or a milkshake and walking around, gossiping, meeting people much more than shopping. I will have to admit though in winter or rainy days it's much more comfortable to shop in a mall than in the city centre!

[@rkbelmont1138]

I agree. From Mexico City here. Our country suffers from the mall cancer as well

[@sammymarrco2]

young americans dont really go to the mall anymore the internet has taken over.

[@FUGP72]

The air is fresher in a mall than in a downtown area.

[@GaigeGrosskreutzGunClub]

It's incredible for how retail-oriented our economy and culture is, we absolutely suck at making it efficient, safe or fun. Sometimes the traffic within the nearest power center gets so backed up you're waiting for 20 minutes to get out, not to mention the stores are so far apart and there's no ped infrastructure integrated within the huge space that you'll probably end up driving from store to store, making the one-stop solution a travesty.

[@bigfat4172]

Right? We are supposedly a hyper capitalist powerhouse and in a lot of ways we aren't even properly built for that.

[@jamesphillips2285]

"I just think it is silly that parking is free and abundant due to due to laws requiring it; while housing is not treated with the same level of priority to ensure that it is abundant and available to anyone who needs it." - 18:10

[@Xenomorph-hb4zf]

That's because laying asphalt is easier and faster than building houses.

[@jeanetteshawredden5643]

"Free abundant parking" is for the 'haves' who are wealthy enough to own a car - not the 'have nots' who are poor.

[@Xenomorph-hb4zf]

@@jeanetteshawredden5643 Owning a car doesn't make you a wealthy rich person. majority of cars don't cost 100k

[@GbengaOguntuase]

I wonder what the justification would be to have a law requiring retailers to provide housing the same way they are required to provide parking.

[@jamesphillips2285]

@@GbengaOguntuase For a "power center" or mall you could require enough apartments on-site to patronize the stores. Parking minimums take up a LOT of land.

[@Ascertivus]

After hearing the story of Gruen's plan, I realized that he did one of the most American things I've ever heard: privatizing and capitalizing public spaces and communities. Fascinating.

[@danielkelly2210]

Whatever Gruen's intentions, it's hard to see the mall concept in the US ever ending in a different way than it did. Suburban sprawl development was in full swing, and while retailers liked the idea of malls they were going to be built in a suburban manner (in greenfield areas and surrounded by a sea of parking) that maximized their profitability (being 100% retail-centric).

[@Doribi117]

Sadly you are right, though I would love to imagine a world where the Gruen style of mall had succeeded, basically every mall being a small city in the middle of the suburbs.

[@foxbodyblues6709]

I still don’t understand why some think they have a right to tell others how/where to live.

[@danielkelly2210]

@@foxbodyblues6709 I know! It's amazing how many laws and policies in the US were passed to push us toward low-density suburban development. Fortunately, these policies are being reversed somewhat, so neighborhoods will be free to densify and will no longer be limited only to single-family residential.

[@foxbodyblues6709]

@@danielkelly2210 you’re still doing it and thinking it’s ok

[@thebigmacd]

@@foxbodyblues6709 if you are insinuating that more freedom means you are being forced to change, no logic will help you. The American zoning laws that create suburban sprawl are the least free in the world.

[@tonywalters7298]

And the trend of consolidation has left fewer players that can enter vacated space. I.e. when the only stores around are Walmart and Target, there is nothing else to take over the space.

[@forivall]

On the topic of grocery stores, luckily, the mall I recently went to, Canada's 2nd largest mall, now has 3 grocery stores, so its useful to visit every once in a while.

[@forivall]

Oh, also, it has fantastic transit access, with an attached bus/metro station.

[@user-vo9wd6tx6c]

@@forivall I was just wondering if "transit oriented malls" existed in North America, thanks.

[@BonaparteBardithion]

@@user-vo9wd6tx6c Most malls in this area have transit nearby, but I wouldn't call them transit oriented. One has a narrow corridor of walkways on either side of the main entry road and crosswalks over the main drag to a transit center. The other is an outdoor mall with a transit center within the grounds, but it's an island with almost no sidewalks between the busses and the stores. Unfortunate since the latter actually has grocery stores.

[@stischer47]

When the first fully enclosed mall was built here in San Antonio in 1960, North Star Mall, it was truly a one-stop mall - grocery store, toy store, bakery, hardware store, etc. However, over time, it has become a series of stores selling the same items (primarily shoes).

[@karenryder6317]

I'd be interested to hear why that mix of businesses devolved to mostly shoe stores.

[@Supersquishyawesomeness]

This is interesting because since I started doordashing I’ve been exposed to some of the most bizarre subdivision/neighborhood experimental layouts. It seems like they have tried to make them have miniature town squares but there are never any people. Its weird and unnerving in many situations.

[@Eternalskyy]

Wow, lol where is that at/general area? It sounds so interesting.

[@dustyrusty75]

Fun fact: the shopping centers with big box stores scattered around a giant parking crater are called "power centers".

[@davidty2006]

Here in Uk they are called retail parks. Guess Retail car parks would be slightly more fitting.

[@MisterRorschach90]

They turned the older mall in my city into a giant office building with a food court for the employees. There are two other malls. One is always busy and will probably never shut down or be effected by the downfall of malls. The other is barely holding on. Years back it even banned kids under 18 from entering without parents or a legal guardian. That actually made me really mad because they had a theater there and I couldn’t go on dates their or see movies with my friends as a teen. And it’s ridiculous because most of the stores in the mall were teen focused. Hot topic. Skate shops. American eagle, gap, sports stores. All of it was for teens and kids except for stuff like dillards, jewelry shops, or perfume shops. The idea of the third place was out the window.

[@ulovejai5297]

Buffalo?

[@FUGP72]

It isn't ridiculous. Don't be mad at them. Be mad at the kids that caused trouble to cause that ban. They didn't do it all willy nilly just to piss you off. The last 2 1/2 generations were taught that the world revolves around you and you can do anything you want. Which, of course, brings a lot of troubling behavior. And ultra lefty policies of "Do whatever you want. No more bail! You will be free to go no matter what you do!" doesn't help either.

[@chrissolace]

I’ve lived in suburbia all my life and only recently gone to a urban shopping district. It was downtown, so traffic was terrible, and parking in a parking garage and walking to the shops was different (and worrying if we could find our car again), but once we got to the shops, we really enjoyed ourselves. There were outdoor parks to relax or play in, shops to buy clothes, places to eat, a movie theater. If we didn’t have an appointment later that day, we could’ve spent the whole day there relaxing (we spent most of the day there anyway). If there was one near where I lived, it easily could be a third place for me (many of my friends wish there was that type of infrastructure and entertainment… at current, our suburbia is often labeled as “boring” and a lot of people want to move away).

[@RevStickleback]

East Asia has quite a mall culture, and the things they build are massive, 8 or 9 floors of shopping, with maybe a cinema on top. The big difference is that many of them are built right in the city centre, not in the suburbs. Then again, few places do sprawling suburbs in quite the way the USA does.

[@TommyTako]

I guess it's common in China, in Tokyo and Osaka, the malls are usually in the suburbs. In the central cities, the small grocery stores and supermarkets are more common. In the car-centric cities like Nagoya, the malls are more popular.

[@tylerschoenhofen9458]

I definitely agree with the overall sentiment but there’s actually a transit center at the Southside mall. I live in downtown Minneapolis and I just took the bus there to buy by new iPhone. It’s even BRT most of the way. I just figured I would point that out since you seem to think you need a car to get there. They also have two apartment complexes in the parking lot and a trail with a separated bike lane that connects it to more apartments,a large grocery store, a large park, and a variety of other things.

[@lizcademy4809]

I could have written this exact post, only I live in Uptown

[@JAM661]

The Mall of America is a big hub for public transport. I volunteer at the Minneapolis Airport and we also get people who have long layovers who want to get to the mall of America. Well it is just one stop away on the train. But I live 6 miles away from the mall and rarely even go there except to visit a few store like LL beans or the computer store or something. But when I was a kid that is what your family did on Sunday was spend the day at the mall when the weather was bad. Well now kids are entertained by video and computer games, sport clubs and other activities. Basically nothing last forever. But I think all these horrible strip malls ruined our shopping centers.

[@teleriferchnyfain]

There are transit centers in or near many urban malls

[@toddtipton6656]

Remember, Minneapolis is part of a very small handful of relatively livable cities. Almost every other city is pretty much a suburban hell.

[@lizcademy4809]

@@toddtipton6656 I've lived in both of American cities/suburbs. When I had my choice to move anywhere in the country, I chose Minneapolis. [I love cold and hate heat.]

[@kino_cinante]

One thing I just noticed was that shops being right next to a sidewalk can offer really nice shade as you walk.

[@empirestate8791]

The redevelopment of SF's stonestown galleria mall is excellent. It's a car-centric mall that's going to be turned into a mixed-use new urbanist development by constructing new housing and retail on the parking lots. A massive new underground garage is going to be constructed to replace the lost surface parking. The new district will have open space, entertainment, retail, and housing - and the old mall will remain unchanged.

[@will2003michael2003]

A car is usually required to make big purchases as well. So there might be some strategy and catering to customers who can haul large amounts of stuff versus people who walk past with their tiny backpacks.

[@MM-NolascoPH]

Malls here in the Philippines have a very opposite effect. They are like all-in-one stop where they have cinemas, grocery shops, restaurants, events places, shopping center/s, hardware stores, etc. I also love to walk around just to look around/window shopping, eat, or even just to get there because it has an air conditioners. Also, I would love to hang out and socialize and even go to the biggest malls there.

[@antoniouresti8753]

We don’t care

[@AlCatSplat]

@@antoniouresti8753 I do.

[@PinoyBowlerGS92]

​@@antoniouresti8753 Well good riddance to American Malls. Malls here in the Philippines are thriving and the Filipino society is different compare to American society. Why ? Lets say Americans watch movies on their TV's VS Filipinos would drive to a mall and go straight to the movie theater.

[@bitchcraftwitch351]

@@antoniouresti8753I care this because is actually good information to know about why and how other countries are thriving in mall culture. America is killing it.

[@Michaelebills]

Here in Northern Virginia, Washington DC, and Southern Maryland, we have 'Town Centers' replacing malls. Town Centers are like malls, but now include condominiums, apartments, townhouses, hotels, theaters, grocery stores, restaurants, small and large stores, promenade, play areas, and relaxation areas. Along with Starbucks and Panera Bread. All they need now is to start building them closer to mass transit systems or bring mass transit systems to them.

[@mariivik9]

I personally wish there was more walkable areas in the US and better public transportation. Makes me miss living in South Korea. It was nice to walk out and have places nearby to hang out and do my shopping or socializing. Even if I couldn't purchase many things because I couldn't carry it all, I liked that as well because I wouldn't unnecessary spend on things I didn't need.

[@mangos2888]

Wendover has a great video in Curiosity Stream that goes over why the US is so awful at public transit and walkable areas. It's pre-pandemic but pretty amazing.

[@mariivik9]

@@mangos2888 thanks for the recommendation! I'll check it out 😊

[@skitlus335]

6:30 this basically explains why opening streets for pedestrians and bicyclists and closing or limiting them for car drivers tends to boost business, not ruin it.

[@KRYMauL]

Yep. Another strategy is to utilize the parallel streets and close off every other street or make it incredibly inconvenient to do so by having cobblestone and tram line inter urbans.

[@samsmom1491]

There's been a rash of outdoor seating in my city for restaurants, cafes and coffee shops, but these are on busy streets where the smell of car exhaust makes sitting outdoors nauseating, not to mention the loud music of passing vehicles.

[@CrAzYnAdEz]

I'm actually surprised if thats true because from my experience whenever these new developments start to become less car friendly most people (including me and my friends/family) who live far away just stop going there altogether because it's no longer convenient. Wouldn't it make sense to have enough parking to attract people who are more than a walkable distance away? Idk but hey I'm glad they can still thrive even without being car friendly.

[@KRYMauL]

@@CrAzYnAdEz If you close every other street, then the streets that aren't closed can have on-street parking a la Jeff Speck.

[@CrAzYnAdEz]

@@KRYMauL Yeah but it won't be nearly enough parking spots though. In the metro Boston area where I live street parking is already a pain in the ass and expensive. If half of the street are closed to cars I would imagine the problem would be even worse. I also work as a courier driver and uber eats driver and me and many drivers have completely banned making deliveries in Boston because theres no place to park our cars when making deliveries.

[@chillaxter13]

The real fallacy leading to the collapse of malls is in thinking that suburbanites actually want an urban experience. If I wanted a city experience, I'd drive to the city and walk around, or just move there. The draw of the suburbs is space, privacy, and limiting the people you have to interact with. If that's not for you, fine... That's why cities still exist. There is plenty of space for people to have different desires in their housing and communities. Btw: hearing your conclusion at the end, sounds like you came to the same conclusion, and it was really refreshing to hear that.

[@AddieDirectsTV]

It's Ee-Dine-Uh not Ee-deeen-uh. Also, ironically, Southdale is accessible by bus. Direct to the door. As are the other "dales" around Minneapolis & Saint Paul. And even the Mall of America is accessible on the LRT or bus.

[@jimsteele9261]

Back when I was carless and healthier, I used to take the bus all the way across town to the mall. There were closer malls, but they all involved transfers and a lot of sitting around waiting for a connection or walking a mile or more to the other crosstown route. Seems the bus riding clientele were not the best. That mall became a bit hostile to bus riders, and even went as far as moving the bus stops way out to the edge of the lot. I even had some rentacop harass me for wearing a backpack... something you need on the bus to carry stuff..

[@Gail1Marie]

When they built Mall of America, my husband asked me, "Since all the other malls are -dales, will this one be 'Airdale' because it's near the airport?"

[@MrGearoid65]

In the UK and Ireland, the major anchor tenant for shopping centres (our name for shopping malls) is usually a well-known food retailer. That's to attract families who then buy clothes hardware etc in the other shops while they're at the centre... Makes perfect sense to me. In recent years with the development of retail parks, with big box stores, adjacent to shopping centres there were no food retailers in the retail parks. When German discounters, Lidl and Aldi arrived on our shores they often opened stores in these retail parks. I never really understood why US planning regulations insisted on separating retail from residential in the way that forces people to drive to a mall rather than strolling to the grocery store on the corner of a housing development. In Dublin, in the residential suburb where I live, you're nearly always within walking distance of a grocery shop. Fewer car journeys, fitter people.

[@deebte__]

currently i've been playing mall tycoon on roblox and the mall you build is far better than any american mall. instead of being some sprawling maze surrounded by parking it's a neat 12 story box with 6 stores and something special on each floor, and there's only around 50 parking spaces. it has a hotel, a movie theater, a few grocery stores (it's one of the special items and it can be a regular store), an art gallery and several other cool things that you wouldn't find in a real mall. make malls more like that

[@mattbosley3531]

There are some malls and shopping centers that have public transportation easily available. Either a bus stop right in front where you can get on or off and don't have to go through the cars and parking lot or in some places light rail or a subway.

[@lw3542]

You just articulated the reasons I HATE suburbia and malls. It's depressing!

[@KendrixTermina]

eventually in europe they started plopping them into city centers rather than remote business parks, designed so that theyre accessible both by foot & parking garage & usually with outward facing cafes, ice cream parlors or fast foot joints to lure in hungry pedestrians - and generally they try to make the outside facade fit the other buildings, and the "anchor" is usually a big grocery store, which is probably more robust.

[@georgeemil3618]

Ironic how mall walkers have to drive there. It's probably too dangerous to walk to the mall from home.

[@davidty2006]

Atleast when it comes to the US. Europe and britain isn't as bad in some places. Metrocenter being a slight exception though it has busses and regional rail as alternatives.

[@sk8razer]

I live in a large southwestern US city that's been putting a lot of effort into breaking away from the built-in car dependency. One super cool thing the city did manage to do in the 80s/90s was put transit hubs super adjacent to malls and bus stops inside of mall parking lots. So you didn't have to walk across a huge parking lot to go shopping or go to work. One of the malls has a dedicated crosswalk with a full bilateral sidewalk to the main entrance. We still heavily used malls as third spaces when I was a teen in the early 2000s, so it was extremely awesome that these areas were designed with a balance between cars and pedestrians in mind. Of course, these malls were built in areas that were already established as urban. Which does make a difference. These two urban malls in the area experienced a smallish drop in popularity when internet shopping first became widespread. But they've rallied quite a bit (with a lot more local businesses renting spaces), even as other older shopping districts, like downtown, have been heavily invested in by the city. I think this has a lot to do with a factor that that urbanites in in more temperate climates tend to overlook. Outdoor thirdspaces & shopping districts and reliance on private vehicles are a lot less realistic and a lot more dangerous in more extreme climates. If Vegas wasn't a major tourism destination, the strip would be vacant for a huge portion of the year. Walking or biking a few blocks in triple digit (F) heat isn't just miserable, it can be deadly. The same is true, to a lesser extent, for very cold climates. Aside from the extreme heat or cold, severe weather is also more likely in these areas. Indoor areas that simulate the outdoor pedestrian-focused areas in more temperate climates are very important spaces for all of us living in less comfortable year round conditions. Especially as climate change continues to accelerate. (Yes, Reno gets a lil hot and a lil cold, but it's definitely not an extreme climate)

[@blakespower]

Most malls these days are mostly empty of people and closed stores since covid shut down everything but they were declining before that too

[@matthewharvey3556]

“Malls aren’t like a traditional downtowns… They don’t want teenagers to loiter.” Sure, because towns NEVER try to stop kids from loitering in the downtown area. 😂😂😂

[@lyndonlives638]

I was blown away when you said about 4 minutes in that malls in America are dominated by clothing and apparel stores and do not always contain grocery stores. Here in Australia we have plenty of malls, but every single mall I've been into always has at least one grocery store and often two big grocery stores! I can't imagine how frustrating it'd be going to a mall without a grocery store.

[@Xenomorph-hb4zf]

The grocery stores are usually Walmart or Target.

[@OnBroGrave]

I've only been to one suburban mall with a grocery store (Memorial City) and it's a full size Target.

[@Gail1Marie]

Southdale USED to have a grocery store when it was first built, but it was replaced by other retailers. The grocery store was moved out of the mall and across the street. And it was a "real" grocery store, not a Walmart or Target.

[@toddbonny3708]

I only know of one mall here in Houston (Memorial City) that includes a supermarket (Target).

[@toddbonny3708]

@@OnBroGrave wow I just saw this after posting the exact same thing!

[@vagurl84]

Empty anchor stores aren’t closed indefinitely as long as there is Spirit Halloween. I’d like to see an indoor mall designed like a downtown area with trees, little “outdoor” patios to eat on, and a little train then “cars” to play in. Kind of like they used to have in Las Vegas.

[@neenee0010]

your videos are always so informative.... great work as usual

[@punkdigerati]

If suburbanites understood the costs of maintenance for all the roads and spread out services, I think they would happily invite businesses in to help offset them. As is there is no impetus, as they've pushed all those costs to the city center they were so desperate to be away from.

[@bastonneknight9478]

Part of the mall vacancy problem is they are not an ideal place for a small business, even something like a booth can be incredibly expensive. I was part of a company trying to open a 4x6 foot booth in a local mall, although you have to pay for a 10x10 foot space centered on the booth. The requirements were the booth had to be of their design, we needed to be insured for $3 million, the fees were $6000 + 5% taxes + 5% "promo" per month (a fee that they never explained in any detail), signage had to be done through them for $250 (a plastic screen with the business name on it we could have had done for $50), and we would have to hire a professional merchandiser (yes, our company was not allowed to merchandise our own products). Needless to say the deal fell through, as we would not even be allowed to use display cases or shelves and instead had to lay the product on the table meaning very little of the product range could be showed off. With all these costs, is it any wonder that businesses are preferring online retail? The company in question dissolved as our suppliers were interested in a physical store front and already had an online presence, so the whole project was centered on these small booths expanding their market presence. Notes, prices are in Canadian dollars.

[@bastonneknight9478]

Another note, empty stores are actually good for the mall and intentional. The mall is after all a property and the property value is tied to the rent that they charge, with this mall in particular being $60 per square foot (and why a previous company I worked for mandated $300 per square foot of merchandise within their store). It's good to have empty stores, because the alternative is lowering the rent to something more affordable, but lower rent also means the properties value reduces. Malls are an investment and like any other investment property they must show a continual growth or at the very least stability of their property value to keep attracting investors. This also leads to interesting arrangements where the anchor store I worked for was required by their lease to also maintain the roof of their section of the building. Unsurprisingly they served their investors by letting it fall into disrepair.

[@stanmarcusgtv]

you have just explained why grocery stores are not at malls - they are a low margin business and would have to charge much more to operate there

[@bastonneknight9478]

@@stanmarcusgtv Spot on, the mall I mentioned does have a grocery store and they are rather pricey.

[@Tiberiuskirk]

I think that is the one change that has happened is all the food stores wanted to have their own locations. There was a time at malls near me where you could actually do it all.

[@davidty2006]

Think suburbs also encourage more online shopping and delivery as well. That also ends up killing off many smaller buisnesses that require people walking past to notice. My towns has it's slap bang in the middle and it ended up replacing a high street. Now it's atleast half empty despite having all the local bus lines, ability to walk to it and plenty of parking with 2 surface, 1 semi underground and a parking garage. 1 of the surface lots becomes a market on thursdays.

[@Leonid_333]

Channel name completely describes what people think about cities (and this is pretty good)

[@shantereed]

As someone who can not drive because of my vision, surburbs are horrible. I have lived in sev states and have found I can be the most independent in an urban setting. I grew up in a rural area and left as quickly as I could because I had to depend upon others to drive me around.

[@RoundHouseDictator]

Malls should be retrofit as schools. Small store spaces could make good classrooms. Backrooms make decent teacher offices and often have access halls that could be accessible for office hours. They already have robust food courts, administrative offices, and typically a gym. Also they are nicer than the schools I went to

[@jeanetteshawredden5643]

Excellent idea!

[@karenryder6317]

One abandoned anchor store in our dying mall is being converted into apartments--but not ones most people can afford.

[@RoundHouseDictator]

@@karenryder6317 it's reusing a built space and not building a new one, so I'll take the win I guess. The neighborhood is walkable and the weather is remarkably consistent, is it a 55+ community?

[@HarvestStore]

I appreciate you, thank you for making content.

[@EricSees]

A couple of comments on southdale. It's in Edina, and the I is pronounced like eye They currently have built apartments and a hotel on the fringes of the parking lot. It's got a fitness studio and a government service space for things like license plates, etc. The mall of America was built a few miles away, so southdale is heading towards the dying mall status but still has quite a few shoppers The Dayton corporation at one time had Daytona, Mervyn's California, and Target. Daytona was sold to Macy's, Mervyn's is no longer with us, and Target remains. One of their largest revenue streams is from rent in malls. They are based in Minneapolis, MN.

[@kenb3552]

CORRECTION - The first "Mall" was Shoppers' World in Framingham, Massachusetts which opened in 1951.

[@KRYMauL]

The thing I don’t understand is that apartments or a neighborhood attached to a mall would actually guarantee a continuous income stream for all the businesses especially if the real estate company was the land lord of the apartment complex. I guess this is why more apartments are doing this now.

[@divingdays]

I’m from the Czech Republic and my parents recently moved back there after my dad retired. There are a total of two malls that I know of that are near where my parents live (near is a strong word) however this mall has a slew of different stores including a butcher shop, grocery store, household goods store, vehicle store for maintenenance etc. it was really different

[@randomdriver]

Why they do not make underground parking or roof parking to those malls? Underground parking allows more access points inside of the mall and it is also good on bad weather. Then there could be residential areas closer to malls without those massive parking lots around it? It is done like that over here in North Europe. Malls are thriving over here and they are building more malls. The city centers and downtowns are dying. Also many malls over here have many more things than just shops. For example spa, hotels, library, movie theater and all kinds of activities so they actually work nicely as a third space. And of course they are nicely accessible with public transport(train, tram, metro and bus for example), bicycles and on foot also from the very near residential buildings. I know at least four malls in my area where you can get in straight from a local commuter train stop and some others with direct metro access.

[@loganwashere24]

They don’t make malls without thousands of parking spots in the states. They simply do not do it

[@davidty2006]

Last i checked the roof tends to be for deliveries and storage for the stores inside...

[@MrChristianDT]

Our mall is virtually impossible for anyone to access on foot. When they built it, it was placed at the intersection of two major highways & they forced out the vast majority of the people whose houses used to be onside the same block the mall is in, & it's backed up to a river/ swamp that we definitely don't want drained. (Actually had a whole thing about that, recently. They were planning to fill in a big part of the swamp immediately behind the mall to build a hospital. Thankfully, local environmentalists shut that down.) Anyway, hard to get to, most of the people who live adjacent to it would have to cross a highway to get in, it gets so busy that it even deters some drivers who don't trust themselves from entering that entire area, most of everything to do besides the shopping was phased out by the last recession &, when they do do something to gather a crowd it seems like it's 99% kid centric, hoping to drag the whole family down there. It's surrounded by tons of other strip malls & single building businesses for quite a ways around, but it's difficult for some to feel brave enough to just wander around & navigate it all on foot. There's a frigging church, a hotel & a DMV built into the thing, now & a movie theatre, a minor league baseball field, another hotel & an expo center are all also in the general surrounding complex & there's at least one of every single kind of store you can imagine across the span of it. I guess it attracts enough people to get by, no one *likes* going there, anymore. When I was a kid, there used to be an arcade, a three decker carousel & sitting areas with wishing well fountains. All of that is gone. Up until the recession, there was Borders books- a book store with a coffee shop built into it, so you could sit down, get something to eat & enjoy the book you just bought. The actual mall itself is about three major stores & the hotel all smashed together &, I swear, 80% of the small stores in between just sell designer clothes.

[@FUGP72]

Do you really not realize that is WHY the mall was built there? flood plains are not suitable for residential areas. A big mall with a big parking lot gives flood waters LOTS of room to dissipate before reaching homes. Malls can be secured and "sealed" much better than homes and no one dies if one gets flooded.

[@AbsalomIndustries]

Interestingly, on the West Coast, I can't think of a single store in a downtown area that I would actually want to shop at for any sort of regular shopping. Here in SF there IS a Target downtown, but it's small, cramped, and short on the stuff I would want to buy at a normal sized Target, making it more of a hassle to get to than anything else, especially because there's only expensive paid parking nearby, making any trip a purely public-transit affair, heavily limiting the amount and kind of goods I think about buying there, and I am already willing to carry far more than most people would on public transit (between 80 and 100 pounds of groceries, which is probably well in excess of what most people consider practical).

[@paulromsky9527]

In northern Vigina in the Dullus/Sterling/Loudin area, there are few outdoor mall/coomunities of upscale shops on a grid of a couple of blocks, around that are parks and luxury multi-floor (not quite high rise) condominiums. The Dullus Town Center is one but the one I am thinking about is smaller and more "nuclear". I think there are office buildings and a school too. I forget the name of it but I hope it catches on. I am 59 and live miles from the real necessities - grocery, pharmacy, doctor, general mechandice, hardware store, and entertainment. I am thinking of retiring to a place like that, not a senior community, but a place of all ages within a couple of walking blocks with everything you need.

[@douglasfels9789]

Discouraging me from taking my car downtown is why I don't go downtown. I like the ability to make more choices in less time about where I go and what I do. Unfortunately, that means I no longer am very aware of what is downtown at this point. Being stuck on someone else's timetable was easier when i was younger.

[@smileyeagle1021]

Being on someone else's timetable isn't a problem when that timetable is frequent and reliable. Also, don't pretend that just because you are in a car doesn't mean you aren't stuck on someone else's timetable. Rush hour is nothing but a bunch of people's timetables screwing up everyone else's timetables. At least a reliable transit system that is separated from traffic is a predictable timetable.

[@douglasfels9789]

@@smileyeagle1021 Man I would never head downtown during rush hour on purpose. :) For a sense of where I am. I'm in Austin and I timed the difference between taking a car and taking a train because one of my friends wanted to travel by train one day. A 14 mile trip took 34 minutes longer by train not including the 48 minutes we waited for a train to arrive to get back (I didn't think to time to first waiting time since we were talking). Since I was there with a friend the extra time didn't seem too bad since there was good conversation. That seemed worthwhile. But I'm way to OCD to sign up for that amount of my life spent waiting. For me there's got to be something better to do with myself. My friend has a much more romantic vision of the train, yet when I asked how much he used it a year, he said only a few times. Sometimes it may be just where you are located. Another example. When I was younger and living in Houston, I blew the engine in my car and had to take the bus to work each day for 9 months. The trip had taken me around 40 minutes each way, but now took 2 hours each way. Plus, I couldn't get groceries on the way home and ended up standing in the rain a lot, which was miserable. Any romantic notions I had were tainted at that point. I've talked to several people who were forced to take mass transit in Texas due to circumstance and hear the same from them.

[@casstelles]

As a Gen Xer, the mall has become irrelevant with online shopping becoming very accessible. Many of the stores that I've visited in the past are gone which leaves no real reason to go to the mall. Add in the former social factor of the mall, people no longer go to the mall just to socialize. Then, as mentioned in the video about the parking situation, people no longer have a reason to deal with the crowds. So, to sum it up for a lot of people, online shopping is the way to go for item needs and social media has filled the other roll of the mall. These were the two main reasons why people went to malls.

[@mangos2888]

You know you've become old when your life is so routine, repetitive, and predictable that ordering online becomes the standard. 😂

[@caseyadams1861]

I don't think malls are irrelevant. There are still plenty that are thriving. The problem is that too many were built to begin with, with disregard to future population density and demand--that's why many are closing.

[@Makoto778]

Vancouver has gotten good at making walls pedestrian friendly.... 1. Build good transit to the mall (Rail or BRT/express buses) 2. Redevelop all surface parking into dense housing & extra commercial space (Vancouver builds too tall now IMO, but better than before) 3. Done. You can keep the existing mall building or renovate/rebuild. This is how so many Vancouver suburbs did for their smaller 'downtowns' and 'town centers'. EDIT: Examples or redeveloped malls near Vancouver: Brentwood Town Center, Lougheed Town Center, Richmond Center (in progress), Oakridge (in progress).... There are other malls that were built from ground up with transit/walkability features (Metrotown, Aberdeen), or at least have good transit access and dense development across the street (Coquitlam Center)... Probably more examples locally, and definitely in Asia.

[@juanjohnrico]

I was about to comment similarly. agree about the "too tall" towers. Brentwood especially.

[@hypermonkey200]

I hate how it's missing the middle option. Giant condos or massive single family homes. Yay zoning

[@zuur303]

Saw some gorgeous trees in those parking lots, marooned in a sea of asphalt. Makes you dream about ripping up the tarmac, sowing grass and flowers and turn those hellscapes into something you would want to be (preferably cycle to).

[@NewPaulActs17]

mall parking lots might also be good for farmers markets, art fairs, and other assorted temporary attractions. an empty parking space doesn't make money

[@rjh00]

American Malls are the ones that only offer clothing and apparel stores. The mall in my city in the Netherlands which on the inside at least looks very much like an American mall does allow you to do all your shopping in one location, in fact our mall is "anchored" by a supermarket. Let me go to the mall's site and see what types of stores they have. AAA type store, travel agency, reality office, small government office, bank, shoe stores, gold buying store, key making store, library, book store, video games store, regular game store, fancy games store, bunch of different mobile phone stores, casino, sit down restaurants, snack bars, Chinese restaurants, Turkish restaurant, Mc Donald's, Subway, Discount stores, home supplies stores, pet supplies store, sports store, bunch of clothing stores, bunch of fancy clothing stores, some eye-care stores, handful of hair saloons, a few bathroom and body care supplies stores, nail salon, Giant supermarket, discount supermarket, Asian supermarket, Bakeries, Liquor store, butcher, flower shop, Fish shop and a bunch that I didn't mention or just counted under the other categories.

[@julie.1081]

So far, I haven't heard you mention a damn good reason why malls started in MN. Because shopping in MN winter weather sucks. And a good part of spring weather does too. If you've never had to dress for that weather & take it off & out it all back on going in & out from every store, you'll never understand why Southdale opened. Now we don't need to leave our homes at all.

[@Keykatriz]

Fun watch! My first job was at the Gottschaks anchor store at Park Lane over a decade ago, and when I was working the mall portion had already closed…it took them forever to redevelop the area! You may want to check out the Alderwood Mall in Lynnwood, WA. It has always been a fairly busy mall but over the last few years it has been surrounded by apartments, some right up against the mall. Of course, there’s still tons of parking space but I feel like they’re slowly chipping away at it. They are also expanding the rapid transit from Seattle to reach this mall which will mean living there would give you access to all the mall, Seattle’s downtown and university districts, and the Airport…now that’s the dream! The one thing the area appears to be missing is a real grocery store other than a Target and Costco, though most could probably make do with that and there’s still plenty of space for a Sprouts or whatever. My husband and I have really considered moving to that area, getting rid of the cars would be great and being able to walk to Target or the movies would be my dream, but the rent is still a little rich for us

[@ciennelson1514]

This explains why my citizens in SimCity 2013 complain about not having access to shopping and parks... Yet they were just 2 blocks away

[@spineonthepine4933]

I honestly didn't think there were malls anymore. I'm in north east Ohio where we're famous for our abandoned malls. In my brain I went "was this made in 2004?" LOL. When I was a kid malls were definitely a 3rd place for me and my friend group though.

[@margaretking2969]

They know you won't buy as much if you have to carry it home on foot or on a bus. Maybe if there was a delivery service at the mall where you could leave your purchases and they would be brought to you the next day, people might be more inclined to go there without their own vehicle.

[@TheRoyalFino]

This is likely going to be something that will catch on. I will not buy a lot of new things unless I get my hands on it. A lot of stores can be more show-rooms where you use it to browse and scan the QR codes onto your phone and the item will be shipped to you. It will save store space and give people a chance to continue their day without worrying about carrying stuff around. Imagine being able to go grocery shopping without needing to go home immediately afterwards. Instacart style services will always exist but this would offer an alternative while also being convenient in a different way.

[@ketch_up]

Hey I really enjoyed this video, thanks for making it

[@tonilafountain636]

Mall design should of been like micro climates. Housing up top, shops below, parking garage attached to "entrance" area nearest highway. Like a mini city!

[@mariusfacktor3597]

13:51 We designed our cities such that children need to run for their lives in the same spots every day. What a horrendous, negligent, wasteland. How can anyone be okay with this.

[@mrdouglasbaker]

I hate when people like this think they’re geniuses they can do it so much better than anybody else😂 my town got rid of their mall, and it destroyed the community 100%

[@justanotheryoutubechannel]

That shopping centre you got an ad for is really shocking to me, my ideal of a shopping centre is thst you drive up (or take other public transit/walk) and park in one place off to the side, then you WALK around the centre and go to all the shops you want, then head home. It’s kinda horrifying to be honest. That shopping centre looks like you need to drive in, park up outside one shop, buy your stuff, then drive to the front of a different shop and park up there to buy stuff. That just blows my mind, I can’t imagine someone actually designing a shopping centre like that, usually the parking is in one or two areas with a few more frequent transit stops.

[@Lurch685]

One of my first jobs was security at an outdoor shopping mall in the Chicago area. I never had more fun at a job. It’s higher end and upscale, but I can’t imagine they’re doing well financially.

[@ericwright8592]

Malls are a caricature of the arcades of old Europe. You can still visit them in some cities. There are even some outside Europe, such as the queen Victoria building in Sydney.

[@MaQuGo119]

How did American houses looked before the suburban experiment?

[@danielkelly2210]

As far as detached homes, they were generally on smaller lots on a grid of streets and didn't have a driveway or a garage, had sidewalks in the front, and were within walking distance of shops and restaurants. Of course, there were also row houses, townhomes, and apartments as well.

[@MaQuGo119]

@@danielkelly2210 Thanks!

[@Yawyna124]

Not necessarily always super close within walking distance, but yeah, on smaller, square, lots in a blocking grid. I would give you a proper link, but KZbin nowadays blocks all of those. Like, for example, in my hometown, the older housing of it is a stretch of extensively tree-covered, smaller town houses between downtown and the foothills. Following message will have image. For historical reference, that city, Boise, and its metropolitan developed around rail up into the early 1920's but then, as cars became more prevalent, tram services became discontinued and in some cases the lines were simply paved over.

[@Yawyna124]

upload(daht)Wikimedia(daht)org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Table_Rock_Boise_View(daht)jpg For a good picture.

[@DivinesLegacy]

The key to walkability is density, How do you convince people who don’t want to be packed into dense areas to be packed into denser areas? Most downtowns are walkable, The issue is most Americans don’t desire apartment buildings, rather desire a big house with yard space and being isolated, which causes sprawl resulting in needing a car.

[@shadeblackwolf1508]

From the netherlands, the recipe for a good mall seems to be: at a junction of 2 modes of mass transport (bus, tram, metro, train), with easy bike access, plenty underground parking, and plenty to do other than dining and shopping. You should never have to question if something you're looking for is sold at a mall unless it is extremely niche.

[@Mike1064ab]

Maybe the solution is making malls public rather than private. Then they couldn’t scare away people who just want to loiter or walk around. It couldn’t just all be about profit.

[@lunayen]

At this point, most people feel like it's a chore to even leave their house and loiter at the mall. The best solution is for malls to be demolished.

[@charlesbrown9213]

Michael, public spaces are going to attract vagrants, drug-dealers, and other riff-raff who have a "right" to stand around engaging in all manner of unseemly activity -- think San Franciso, circa 2023. Nobody would want that.