Did the Dealer RUIN This Hand and Crush a New Player’s Dreams?

[@CrushlivePoker]

Do you agree with the idea of giving back the pot or splitting the pot in this scenario? What would you have done if you were the guy with pocket dueces?

[@MXDRE907]

As soon as the player who bet, folded his hand (the moment his opponent called), he relinquished the pot right then and there. It wasn’t a tournament hand. Was there any reason for the dealer to continue to play the rest of the hand out when there was only one player left holding cards? *Note: Yes, I agree the standup thing to do would be to tell the dealer to push the pot to the newbie, but that would not be anyone’s obligation. He folded his hand, (hand is over) essentially rabbit hunted then wanted to make his hand live again. Sorry, but no way. How would this be any different if this happened on the flop? (My opponent bets on the pre flop. I raise and my opponent calls… then I immediately throw my cards into the muck.) Was that foolish of me? Yes. Is there any reason to burn and reveal the turn? No.

[@jeremyb6022]

I think this one's pretty clear cut, if you throw your cards far enough that they're landing where the board cards go, that's a fold. Doesn't matter if you're new or a vet. Flinging cards to the middle of the table is universally understood as "I'm done"

[@Fred-rg5vw]

Only a pro..reg winning player would even entertain that thought at a casino where we'll almost defn never see any of these people again A rec like me wouldn't understand when we're supposed to do that and are at a disadvantage generally v more experienced / better players anyway.. so take what we can get.

[@Nikkithedog-t6b]

If I'm the dueces I offer a chop to the aces because we were both all in, I know because this actually happened to me once.

[@nicsmith3639]

Our casino where I live doesn't have a betting line on the tables I may be wrong but if the table has the betting line and it crosses it it then it's dead. Dumb of me but that has gotten me once before now I always anywhere I play show my cards face up

[@wesleykorisky8600]

As a dealer, if this happened, the hand would be mucked and the pot would be pushed to the 22 player. Just table your hand and take the lost pot like a reasonable adult instead of being childish and this situation won't happen to begin with.

[@brianfloyd2279]

When I used to deal I was always taught to grab the mucked cards when they hit the felt...so I always waited for cards like a hungry hungry hippo! 😂 And when I mucked them u couldn't tell where they were in the muck! I had been taught too many horror stories of local players in Vegas that got special treatment because they knew the dealers and floor men. They usually treat the out of towners a bit lesser than the locals on those occasions.

[@pot_kivach160]

agreed. I understand some players act childish, but not understand why taking a childish thing seriously (and publicized it, hoping to make a case??).

[@RobRochon]

Both of you dealers are wrong and you both need to learn the definitions of "muck" and "fold" and learn the difference between the two terms. This player did neither. AA did not muck his hand. A hand isn't mucked, by definition, unless one of three things happen: 1) the hand touches the muck, 2) the player pushes his hand TOWARDS THE DEALER, or 3) he announces verbally "FOLD". We also know that some rooms have house rules that will allow cards to be fished out of the muck if the dealer mistakenly puts cards into the muck and the cards can be pulled out with some certainty. None of these acts occurred. The player tossed the cards towards the board, not towards the dealer and the cards didn't touch the muck. And not only that he immediately stated "I didn't mean to fold" which is the exact opposite of a verbal "fold" by definition. The dealer had a responsibility to open the cards up for showdown if they don't satisfy one of the three conditions stated above AND THE PLAYER IS STATING HE DID NOT "FOLD". The player clearly paid to see showdown by going all-in so should have been awarded the pot. You both are the type of dealers that piss of experienced players because you don't know the rules of the game as much as you really should.

[@brianfloyd2279]

@@RobRochon first off, get off ur high horse. U ain't better than anyone. And before u say anything back, u do act like ur better than others. Second, in this exact situation sure give the play a moment, a benefit of the doubt to confirm he is mucking, because he did throw them face down towards the dealer. Third, if I'm dealing and someone throws their cards towards me to fold, I grab them immediately and put them in the muck where they cannot be retrieved. I'm not putting them on top of the pile where someone can say "it was those two"...they are gone. If ur the top poker player in the world as u insinuate, why would u throw ur cards towards the dealer and then try to retrieve them? Sure people can make mistakes, but ur the professional, u should be reading the board correctly and doing what is necessary to ensure u don't do that. Lastly, ur a bit confused in ur definitions. Not sure what ur source is, but mucking is the act of discarding ur cards...saying "I fold" is not a muck. The muck is the pile of discarded cards, mucking is the act of putting the cards in that pile. Throwing ur cards towards the dealer face down is the act of mucking, and as they lay on the table untouched by the dealer yes, they can be retrieved. Had the player made a mistake and meant to turn them face up he would have instantly told the dealer "whoa! I was trying to table my hand!" Most people can clearly tell of the intent of the toss if they meant to be up or down. U said "none of these acts occurred"...the player tossed his cards toward the dealer! How is that not mucking? And yes, in some card rooms they have rules about the process of mucked cards and whatnot. It is best to ask for the rules of the card room before playing or speak with players as u play, they usually share this info, or u can discuss with the floor. But it is ultimately left up to the floor's decision, and they were never called in this instance. BTW...saying "I fold" is not a muck since the cards are not being actively mucked. Mucking is the act of folding. At least if ur gonna discuss with others what the definition of something is get the actual definition correct.

[@RobRochon]

@@brianfloyd2279 You don't know what you're talking about. Look up the definitions before you pop off. fyi - I don't think I'm better than everyone...just better than you. Do better.

[@sunalwaysshinesonTVs]

What's the controversy? Player is responsible for protecting their hole cards. Dude tossed his cards.

[@magnusred2945]

Caller is a new player

[@Hotdiggity11]

@@magnusred2945Lessons are expensive.

[@jbbruno8115]

I’m sorry . Every room I’ve ever played at player is responsible for protecting their hand. End of story. AA loses. No controversy. Disagree with Bart completely

[@TravisHall-q1y]

Bro tbh. If that's me it's a fold. IDC if you're new I paid to learn too. He mucked. Hand over. River doesn't matter.

[@FLUMBARDING]

worst take ever

[@well.thy.one.]

​@@FLUMBARDINGelaborate?

[@PhilipJReed-db3zc]

@@well.thy.one. For starters no one folded in this hand. A muck at showdown isn't the same thing. "Charging first-timers for lessons" isn't great for long term sustainability. Each new player who has fun and becomes a reg is pure gold.

[@jamesjones2675]

Absolutely

[@elindauer]

“I’m doing the guy a favor by keeping his money” lol classic

[@pot_kivach160]

that's right! The best type of lessons are those that we pay for.

[@Its__Good]

1 - Don't 4x shove on the turn when you're only getting called by better hands and folding out a lot of value. 2 - Don't muck your cards if you can still win.

[@MrErizid]

The rules need to be strictly enforced. I hate the "spirit of the game" bullshit exceptions. If the dude mucked and its clear he was mucking, its gone. I don't care what happens after. The dealer should be reprimanded for turning his hand over before mucking. Don't muck your damn cards early.

[@Mr.Muckington]

Reprimanded 😂 like how. Doc his lol. Guess what as a dealer for many years. The casino hates poker players. You are nobody and can and will be replaced by another giv8ng the exact same money to the casino. I worked one casino where to told poker to not take any shit and just boot everyone you don't like almost the complete opposite of tbl game ppls

[@joshTheGoods]

Hand is not live. There's no question about it. That's a muck, and intent has nothing to do with it. If they threw their cards _face up_ we could have a discussion, but this is cut and dried if the cards were passed to the dealer face down. Now the dealer overturning a mucked hand ... that's fucking crazy, and I'd be calling for the floor to complain. If those were my set of ducks, I'm raking in that whole pot and getting litigious at the HINT of pushback from the dealer, the opponent, or God himself.

[@jamesforeman8028]

@@PhilipJReed-db3zcthis universe. You can muck your hand whenever you feel like it. You can open muck whenever

[@well.thy.one.]

Lol even God eh

[@nicholi2789]

Litigious. Good word choice lol

[@drdrayfromla99]

Relax. No one is getting litigious over less than $1k. That’s small claims bs.

[@nicholi2789]

@@drdrayfromla99I mean… Going to small claims court is literally the definition of getting “litigious”

[@drewc3350]

Never muck your hand before the hand is over no matter what. Yesterday at Orange City I had A10, and AA7 hit the flop, 10 hit the turn, and we're ALL IN at this point with me having the boat, and the entire table is rooting for an Ace for me on the river, and boom, the case Ace hits the river, and I won the high hand. The player with Aces shouldn't have mucked the hand. Period. And it's the same rule in my poker room. If you muck and the dealer starts to drag your cards to the muck, the cards are dead.

[@nicholi2789]

Your story makes no sense

[@enijize1234]

6 aces in the deck hey dude? Is this an ai bot hallucination?

[@lukewheat7693]

@@enijize1234 The first paragraph is his scenario. The second is him commenting on the scenario from the video. Reading comprehension is key.

[@lukewheat7693]

@@nicholi2789 How does it not make sense. High hand was on. He needed case ace for quads to make high hand. Then, he mentions AA about the hand in the video. It does make sense.

[@nicholi2789]

@ K

[@kevinsalasberetta2039]

Bart as an idea, make a playlist of videos of non hand videos cuz theyre really interesting!

[@libu6189]

Player 1 was all in so can his action be a fold? My interpretation is that mucking and folding are different where mucking is an action done to not reveal your cards whereas folding is an action meant to kill your hand.

[@PhilipJReed-db3zc]

You are 100% correct. If there's one thing learned from far too much time on the live (brick and mortar) 2+2 forum it's this.

[@huntermonaghan6486]

I might be completely wrong, but once I got Aces in preflop heads up while the guy kept talking smack during all the preflop action and all the streets. I turned over my aces and the guy slammed his cards over with a violent flourish and one of his aces bounced off the table onto the floor. Hand was ruled dead and I scooped instead of chopped. I say that because I always assumed that if your cards are face down and touch any of the cards (burn cards, muck, community cards) like it sounds like this guy’s cards touched the river, that his hand is dead. Just to avoid any sleight of hand mechanic crap. Also every possible realistic hand the guy had was live against a set of 2s funny enough.

[@datsumcrzysht]

Although not applicable to this exact situation, I believe that general poker room rules should be posted in the poker room or on their website. This will keep every floor person from having their own interpretation of said rules.

[@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWX-fk7ux]

This is something even an average new player wouldn’t do. Everyone can have outs. You shouldn’t be mucking your cards like that prematurely

[@RobRochon]

AA did not muck his hand. A hand isn't mucked, by definition, unless one of three things happen: 1) the hand touches the muck, 2) the player pushes his hand TOWARDS THE DEALER, or 3) he announces verbally "FOLD". We also know that some rooms have house rules that will allow cards to be fished out of the muck if the dealer mistakenly puts cards into the muck and the cards can be pulled out with some certainty. None of these acts occurred. The player tossed the cards towards the board, not towards the dealer and the cards didn't touch the muck. And not only that he immediately stated "I didn't mean to fold" which is the exact opposite of a verbal fold by definition. The dealer had a responsibility to open the cards up for showdown if they don't satisfy one of the three conditions stated above. The player clearly paid to see showdown by going all-in so should have been awarded the pot.

[@havad44]

That’s a dead hand. He folded AA and it is what it is.

[@TheVigilantEye77]

The same thing happened to me. Cards were shown without a call or chips being put out to call. Her pair beat my AK. Dealer gave her the pot. I was new and no one said anything. I had raised with AK

[@mackwilkins5167]

If his behavior before and after the river card were indicative of surrendering his hand face down, he loses, very clear situation. I’ve been in this situation where someone wildly threw their hand in frustration and the question was whether or not they intended to reveal their cards or not. If I’m not mistaken, he was not intending to show his hand down, that is the key variable. The dealer showing the cards is just poor etiquette, if it’s in the muck it’s in the muck, next hand.

[@JD0829-vz6nh]

Shocked at how many people think the hand should be dead. The player didn't fold as action was complete so he can't fold, he tried to muck. There is a big difference between folding and trying to muck, emphasis on trying. The second he expressed that he wanted his hand back, the cards should have been returned. There is no universe in which the pot should not be awarded to the best hand when action is complete, the player with the best hand realizes he has the best hand, and the cards are identifiable. Even if the dealer/floor somehow got this wrong, I'm giving the pot to the rightful winner as the other player in the pot. For those that that think it should be dead, what if the player just motioned like he was going to muck and then realized and then turned his hand over? What if he actually threw his cards forward but then grabbed his hand and turned it over after realizing he had the best hand? In both of these scenarios the hand would be live because there is no intent to muck, the hand is either in the muck or it isn't.

[@noex100]

The only thing that's shocking is that there are people who think you should be allowed to throw your cards halfway across the table, facedown, toward the dealer, and then say "oops nevermind" and get them back. The hand is dead.

[@JD0829-vz6nh]

How far is too far forward? The answer is far enough to be in the muck. Otherwise there is no difference in throwing them facedown halfway across the table and putting them facedown an inch in front of you. Taking the pot in this spot with the worst hand is super scummy.

[@noex100]

@@JD0829-vz6nh If they're out of your immediate reach then there's no gray area..... you've surrendered your hand. The first rule of poker is to protect your own hand.

[@JD0829-vz6nh]

@@noex100 That's not a real rule and still subjective. Within my reach sitting down? Within my reach standing? The only rule is the hand is dead when it's in the muck (or touching the muck if in a poorly run room). I'm not saying the player is not at fault, he didn't protect his hand, but that doesn't make his hand dead. You protect your hand to prevent it from ending up in the muck, failing to protect your hand doesn't instantly result in it being in the muck.

[@noex100]

@JD0829-vz6nh I'm not saying "out of reach" is the actual threshold... I'm saying it's outside the "gray area". And it's funny how you talk about subjectivity, because it's EQUALLY subjective as to whether the dealer gives the hand back to the player or puts in the muck. The fact is that in any respectable room, a hand that is thrown face down right at the dealer or board is dead.

[@TomRauhe]

Poker is a journey teaching life lessons. For me, it's all about intent. If you intended to fold your cards not realising you have two outs, that's that. That's a pot sized lesson, and a valuable one at that.

[@patrickjordan2233]

In any Casino or Private game, I've learned (the hard way) to ask about "room rules"? Clarification is never a bad thing IMO...

[@jasonfullerton7763]

I did this recently. I was the preflop 3-bettor and we were pretty deep for a tourney (100+ BB), get led in to small on the flop and I raise with my flopped gutshot/top pair bad kicker hand. Villain goes to stack and pulls out a handful of big raising chips. I'm looking at the board as I hear chips hit the felt and I turbo muck. Villain just called, not raised. Dealer took my hand, awarded the pot, and I didn't object because I immediately recognized I was the idiot and made sure to point that out to the table.

[@CGCareerCentral]

Scary how many people in the comments don’t know the definition of a “fold”.

[@TriviaKing-o3l]

I don’t know why you try to take lines that defend the player who committed the infraction.

[@pot_kivach160]

neither do I.

[@FutureFlash09]

Poker dealer speaking. I muck all hands immediately if they are thrown in with a few exceptions. Sometimes people angrily slam the cards when trying to table them and they kind of bounce on the table and land face down. I will give THEM the opportunity to flip them face up. I will never table it for them. The cards must be 100 percent identifiable. But if it is a normal folding motion, those cards are getting mucked.

[@mbkincaid1]

if the AA was never turned face up prior to hitting the middle of the table then this is 100% a fold. even if the AA was turned up then this should still be a fold. bro tip - do not fold equity when you're all in.

[@upbreaker7055]

That's a fold all day. We all paid our dues learning the game. Poker isn't for the soft squishy sensitive type.

[@PhilipJReed-db3zc]

Do you know what a fold is in poker? Which bet, raise, or reraise was the AA player facing? Rancid condescension toward newbie players combined with apparent ignorance of poker terms is the nut low.

[@Jermo484]

Except it's literally not.

[@upbreaker7055]

He said " I didn't mean to fold " lol. It's a fold. He even admitted. 2 cards face down hit the muck. Stop rewarding noobs.

[@Jermo484]

@upbreaker7055 rewarding noobs? The poker actions were completed. It's objectively not a fold. You could argue it's a muck, but I'd argue I don't care. Mucking isn't actually a poker action - the best hand after the Action is finished should win. Period.

[@degenpokerGG]

@@upbreaker7055 Your IQ is lower than room temperature. Good grief, what a donut.

[@wesleykorisky8600]

After the player surrendered their hand, it was over. Doesn't matter. The dealer should never have shown the mucked hand, especially in cash. I deal for a casino and I play, I would never ever do something like that. If you surrender your hand, it's done. And I mix it into the muck, I rarely just put it on the pile. Dealer fucked up big time here.

[@SavagePoker81]

Its a no brainer that the guy with 22 wins the pot!

[@LoLleavemealonePLZ]

That's a fold. Once your hand is mucked, its mucked regardless of whether or not you called an all-in or you shoved or whatever, once its mucked, its gone. I was watching some Hustler Casino Live videos not to long ago and one player, Rob Yung I think his name is, called an all-in. He seen what his opponent had, Rob believed he was drawing dead, he mucked. He realised he wasn't drawing dead, they still had to run out the hand because it was a stream, he ended up winning the hand, a big big pot. Thousands and thousands of dollars. He said he mucked, and insisted that he lost because his hand was mucked.

[@Petty-Cash]

Bad habits learned from watching the high stakes streamed games. If there's an all in and a call then all cards should be face up before the river is dealt. No folding or mucking should be allowed or possible.

[@avengingblowfish9653]

I disagree. If I bluff with absolutely nothing and someone calls with the nuts, I don’t necessarily want to show the table that I will sometimes bluff with absolutely nothing unless I have to.

[@noex100]

Lol what? That's not from "high stakes streamed games"... that's literally every cash game. You don't need to turn your cards over just because you're all in.

[@Petty-Cash]

@@noex100 You should. If your bet gets called you show, should be enforced.

[@noex100]

@@Petty-Cash That's not an actual rule, so there's nothing to enforce. There's no obligation to show.

[@not1not2but3]

Why isn’t there a line on the table that is an unambiguous fold/bet line?

[@renecoty1928]

1:41 "that guy has aces" 3:10 "river's gonna be an ace"

[@LJlucky8]

He mucked. Hand has to be dead. I would tell the new player to always wait until the river, and if he doesn't know if he wins, to flip his hand over on showdown

[@LinusK500]

Absolutely terrible dealer. He can give the player an opportunity to retrieve his hand. He could call the floor. He can even muck the cards, and move on. But retrieving the cards himself, showing them, and then declaring them dead is the worst of all possible worlds. I think the correct ruling, if the floor had been called, is that the dealer tabled the winning hand, by turning it face up.

[@davidsherman4032]

The problem is that there needs to be a clear set of rules everywhere. We need a poker union

[@leviwhatever6192]

Oh man, john bonetti, a name I hadn't thought of in a LONG time, and could have gone a lot longer....

[@jackripper8337]

Being a dealer is not easy. We make split second decisions with limited information. Turning it over is bad. But still. This isn’t as easy as it appears. I encourage Anyone that plays to deal a little bit.

[@mykelengieza7057]

You muck, it's over. End of story

[@nevilleyeung2424]

He mucked

[@spanky9753]

I say it's a dead hand, his intention was to muck the hand. Moral of the story is that you're shit out of luck if you sit on a can only to realize after the fact that the toilet paper dispenser is empty

[@MikeTidman]

“Motion to muck” needs to become a muck again.

[@LionAndALamb]

If the player intended to muck his cards, then they're dead. No do overs. This is not a child's game.

[@nicholi2789]

I think this is obvious… The caller is the player with the aces.

[@revbenball]

😅The dealer showing the hand doesn't ressurect the hand but it's poor form.

[@cryptolocc6200]

They were all in. With cards to go. They should be live

[@pot_kivach160]

This should not even be a case. Unless it was an accident, mucked hand is dead. Period. It would be the same as saying _Im all in,_ push some chips across, and then take them back, and say... _ohh, I changed my mind! I check_ Seriously? . Don't see why it is even in this video? What are we going to learn from this? That there are some incompetent dealers somewhere out there? lol

[@CGCareerCentral]

Not the same thing at all. Saying “all in” is a binding action. In this example, there was an all in and a call. Action was complete. He wasn’t facing a decision.

[@pot_kivach160]

@@CGCareerCentral he was facing decision: to table his hand or to muck. He chosen "muck", and that is a binding action. If he tabled his hand (cards face up), then the hand is alive, and showdown would determine the winner. This way: the showdown was disabled. (He did it by his action).

[@evrenturan5632]

Top full set should never be folded...

[@RemyLB]

Intent seems clear to me -- he threw them face down in the middle of the table . That’s a muck Hopefully learned his lesson

[@kamnovak5268]

not much of a story. novices often don't understand the basics. hopefully he'll learn from it

[@Mr.Muckington]

Bart your completely wrong on this one. Some casino rules the dealer grabbing mucked cards onve touched is dead

[@liammartin2661]

A mucked hand is a dead hand.

[@naMnivraM]

Who goes all in and then throws their cards into the muck before the river is dealt? Lol

[@kedrickbryant6797]

He threw his cards face down

[@budthebud9108]

You throw cards in face down. That's a fold.

[@PhilipJReed-db3zc]

5:57 Bart, the hand wasn't mucked. AA was facing no action (hence no such thing as a fold) and hadn't reached showdown.

[@jordanshore838]

Right no action, but table doesn't know the cards are AA. You can muck to conceal information, it has value, therefore more action or not, the hand is thrown away. Dealer showing was the real problem here. Throw face up, fine, you win. Throw face down, you don't want people to know how you played, you lose. No runout.

[@PhilipJReed-db3zc]

@@jordanshore838 You're correct at showdown but this wasn't at showdown, hence why they needed a runout.

[@pot_kivach160]

wrong! Even at showdown, one can muck his cards face down. When it hits the muck, the hand is dead. I see no controversy here. Just a b/s presentation.

[@PhilipJReed-db3zc]

@@pot_kivach160 Sorry I was unclear. AT SHOWDOWN in cash games a bettor can muck face down. I'm saying showdown hasn't occurred without a river card exposed. Touching the muck has nothing to do with it. Once the cards are irretrievable (which dealers are trained to do quickly) the hand is dead.

[@noex100]

​@PhilipJReed-db3zc He mucked. He went all in and got called, therefore he is first to show. He mucked and it's over. It's poker, there are no takebacks.

[@PhilipJReed-db3zc]

5:17 Dealer has done almost everything wrong since the all in so far. Let a player "muck" without facing action or a showdown (Maybe I misunderstood. Sounded like they brought a river before the turn action was complete. ) (If premature river: Neglected to call floor. That isn't up to the players in that case.) Failed to return the cards to the player even though they were identifiable and he had not folded per the rules of the game. Exposed a "mucked" hand (in his mind) for God only knows why

[@jimrieder4600]

The action was complete when dude mucked his hand. The correct river was dealt

[@PhilipJReed-db3zc]

@jimrieder4600 I apparently misunderstood but not for the reason you said. I thought the set hadn't called the all in yet, merely flipped cards up while deliberating.

[@PaulFromPC]

dont muck your hands when you have equity... nuff nuff jiggly puff

[@MilosRS_96]

Lol at based player 1,check calling 22 on j87 donking when spike set then goes in full pain mode when face shove😂absolute giga chad

[@noex100]

The 2 was on the flop, the board wasn't described in order, and the caller made that pretty clear.

[@jamesjones2675]

That’s a fold

[@Lewis_M_]

Wouldn’t his original all in override the fold

[@JayKay-do1jv]

well, $900 mistake..hopefully he doesnt do it again 🤣

[@jeffreynorway5723]

Maybe I’m harsh but the “clear and retrievable” thing kind of annoys me. Just don’t fold your hand.

[@datsumcrzysht]

Sometimes people have to learn the hard way.

[@CrazyJoe113]

I think it should only be used when hand is mucked based on incorrect information or by dealer accidentally. Intentional mucks should be mucks

[@PhilipJReed-db3zc]

No one in this story folded their hand. I also wish newbies would hold onto their damn cards though.

[@austinolson7785]

Uh uh. Those cards are live until they are actually in the muck. Once the dealer turned them over he has the winning hand. Do the right thing.

[@colly4258]

Absolutely not, he threw his cards face down into the middle of the table…his hand is folded the second that he’s done that…dealer is not supposed to turn his hand over. How to fix it? Don’t throw your cards away like an idiot

[@noex100]

Wrong, wrong, aaaaaaand still wrong. The hand is dead, period. End of story.

[@mrj3711]

In the words of the great James Coburn " You lost"