Did the Master BI-GENERATE? │Doctor Who Theory

Missy was killed in a way that she shouldn't have been able to regenerate so How did Sacha Dwahn's Master come to be?
Perhaps the 60th Anniversary Special holds the answer
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[@thebobbrom7176]

I really like this theory and I'm glad you mentioned the character arc One of the frustrating things I've found with Doctor Who online discorse is whenever this is brought up everyone goes "Well The Master always survives" Like there's no difference between coming back after being randomly shot and coming back after deciding to be a good person. I think this solves that nicely *Edit:* Just to add to that maybe The Toymaker had some involvement here too They did mention having met The Master afterall.

[@CulturePhilter]

Yep the master always somehow survives. And it’s fun speculating on how they did. 😁

[@tomwantshelp]

The "character arc" thing is very simple to resolve. In Doctor Who, there is this thing called "regeneration" in which a Time Lord's personality changes. The Master simply regenerated. Also, Missy barely turned good at all. She literally murdered the Twelfth Doctor and chose to walk away with the Master instead of staying. Only right at the very end does Missy briefly say "no, I'm going to stand with the Doctor".

[@thebobbrom7176]

@@tomwantshelp When a Time Lord regenerates they're still the same person It's literally what Day of The Doctor was about As for the rest... I'm not sure what to say that seems like bad media literacy to be It'd be like if in The Force Awakens we had Anakin Skywalker alive again as a bad guy. And you'd be like "Well he only turned good right at the end he barely turned good. And there's this thing called The Force"

[@tomwantshelp]

@@thebobbrom7176 ... what? I'm afraid nothing you've said there makes a lick of sense. You don't know what "media literacy" is for a start. I'd strongly recommend watching "The Day of the Doctor", it shows quite clearly some dramatic personality differences between three incarnations of the Doctor (and another in a brief cameo). It's bizarre to me that people can watch Doctor Who and not notice that Time Lord personalities change when they regenerate. I can just about understand how you might have thought that Missy "turned good", although it's not really supported by the text, but I don't know what to say to people who don't know what regeneration is.

[@thebobbrom7176]

@@tomwantshelp They have different quirks but the core person is the same Hence "Same software different hardware" bit when talking about the sonic screwdriver They don't just regenerate and turn evil. That's kind of the whole point of the episode that The War Doctor wasn't some evil incarnation. It was the same guy just put into an impossible situation. Hence why say the beginning we see The Eleventh Doctors face morph into The War Doctor as he says "That man was me"

[@Thelastgamer313]

I think the way bi-generation works is that its just the timelord regenerating at the wrong time, the doctor says that he's ok because 10 will eventually BECOME okay, which implies that later on 10 regenerates again and is pushed back down his timestream into the moment of that regeneration to split apart.

[@CulturePhilter]

That’s a possibility. But we don’t know either way for certain yet.

[@cam1e754]

This is a very good idea of what happened, guess time will tell...

[@CulturePhilter]

Or we may never find out either way. But it’s a nice head-canon to have if that’s the case.

[@blakelycan2535]

i think this could be the case. in the big finish audios we get introduced to a good incarnation of the master called The Lumiat. it says that missy used something called a Elysium field. its a forbidden time lord thing that can rebuild your body and take away things from the personality. and the lumiat is all that was good in the master. so we dont know where all the bad went. tho the lumiat does also regenerate at the end of their first story but we never see into who. so who knows. its possible that the Elysium field caused a Bi-Generation

[@CulturePhilter]

I haven’t heard those audios but I’m aware of them. Another way it could work with the Lumiat stuff is if Simm’s Master bi-generates and that’s how we get Spy Master and Missy and THEN Missy goes on to do the Elysian field thing

[@blakelycan2535]

@@CulturePhilter I mean yeah it's possible. but I won't lie and say it doesn't really have any back up as the only Bi-Generation we've seen has only been caused by an entity that just warp reality without even try so who knows. the only thing we know happens after the doctor falls for Simm is him rejecting the regeneration. destroying the universe, then gloating about it to his other selves. then that timeline get reversed so we dont really know what happens

[@markfernkopf5133]

I think Simms regenerated into Dewan , or The Hybrid Master as I call him, as he became the Hybrid prophecies confirmed was destined to destroy Gallifrey and stand in its ruins when he combined with the Cyberium. Missy is further down the line

[@CulturePhilter]

For me that doesn’t quite fit with how Missy acts and what she seems to know.

[@cofteaamsr1717]

I always though that Missy forced herself to regeeate into the Lumaire who then regernated into the DeWan Hybrid master.@@CulturePhilterplus his master was so self-deperacating and lonely. I mean last we saw of DeWan Master was he was on a dying planet. maybe in a very split second he could of tried to play a game with the toymaker?

[@CulturePhilter]

@@cofteaamsr1717 - this theory can still work with the Lumiat stuff in Big Finish. Simm’s Master bi-generates and Dhawan splits off from him, remaining Simm later regenerates into Missy (blury or no memory of no generation happening because it was during a multi-master adventure) Dhawan master goes off (also not remembering he bi-generated) and eventually encounters 13th Doctor. Then when Missy is killed by Simm she dies the Elysian field thing that means she regenerates into The Lumiat. I gather that in Big Finish we never find out who the Lumiat regenerates into so it doesn’t contradict it to say the Dhawan master came from the earlier bi-regeneration.

[@cofteaamsr1717]

we never do other then that the Lumiat is a future incarnation of Missy/the Master down the line. @@CulturePhilter so both could very much well work out.

[@joshuajoshua2732]

@markfwenkopf5133 I think it's pretty much obvious that Dhawan comes after Missy because she has no knowledge of the Timeless child that's pretty clear we know she becomes the Lumiat at some point which is the good version of The Master then her past self kills her because of it then regenerates into Dhawan and the reason he turns evil again is he tried being good didn't work for him and then finding out his own race was created from the Doctor which pushes him further into evil which I think makes 10 times more sense.

[@AuroraButterflyx]

This would make alot more sense, with that one was missy and the other one was the Spy master, Missy splitters is the one that couldn't regenrated, that she would noticed that she couldnt regenerated, between the end of series 9 and start of series 10 (idk how she would know) could be why she become "good" as she knows that her life is ending (also explains why she was her normal self in series 8 and series 9). Whereas with Spy Master, they know that they can regenerate, so they don't bother becoming good. i also sure that the spy master would keep an eye on it other self, so it would know at least the basics on what happened (so would know that other one was going by missy), and they know that their own self has died and try not let the doctor know, otherwise it would be confusing. So they pretend that it the same one. it was also noted that the 13th doctor didn't even use the phrase missy or ask what he been up too, so he doesn't have to explain everything in detail.

[@CulturePhilter]

I’d say while still very evil you can see the start of her arc in series 8 with her wanting to gift the Cyberman army to The Doctor.

[@AuroraButterflyx]

@@CulturePhilter true. I haven't watched series 8 in awhile so I forgot she gave the army to the doctor

[@bakaar6423]

That wouldn't work. Bigeneration isn't regening into 2 new versions, as in Simm -> Missy/Spy. Otherwise we would have 14 -> 15/15a. We don't, we have 14 -> 14/15. So at best, if they did bigenerate, it would be Simm -> Simm/Missy. And Simm would be the one to not be able to regen, like 14. Tear up the Master Bigenerated theory and think one up where they BI-RE-GENERATED instead, regening into 2 separate entities... Simm -> Missy AND Spy, and I think you'll be onto something

[@bakaar6423]

Or just accept Big Finishes Lumiat series, where Missy is able to regen due to using an Elysium Field. She regenerates into the Lumiat, then we see Spy in the show. And keep the myth that has never happened before to happening only ever once, and not (quite coincidently) to 2 besties

[@AuroraButterflyx]

@bakaar6423 I admit I haven't listened to much Big Finish. I have only started a bit with the 8th doctor. So I'm unaware of that. But I need to listen to it eventually. Yeah my theory was based on the fact that John Master regenerated and then split, so one being Missy and the other being Spy Master. So my theory wouldn't make sense if it was just John Master splits off to become missy and John Master survived

[@idiaridiNADecio]

I'll put something in there. 1) In The Giggle it is said that the Master begged not to die. The only Master in NuWho who would do this is Simm, because he knew he would become Missy. So maybe his regeneration was held back by the Toymaker and in the process he found out about the Bi-generation from the Doctor. 2) I think it was Simm who discovered the Timless Child. After the end of End of Time the Master returns to Gallifrey and is cured. Of course he gets imprisoned and only manages to escape when The Doctor screws up Clara (This would explain why Missy chose Clara). Escaping, he hides in the Matrix, where he discovers the TC. Enraged, he takes the first TARDIS and ends up in the cyber colony. 2.5) As with the Doctor, we have the 15 who continues the adventures and the 14 who makes amends for his life... Exactly as it would be for Missy and the spymaster. We also know that Simm had a TARDIS, but we only see Missy using the vortex manipulator. Who uses the TARDIS, though? The spymaster. Then after the Bi-Generation, the spymaster takes the cyber men to attack Gallifrey. Missy instead uses the Cybermen as a gift for the Doctor

[@CulturePhilter]

Yeah Simm devastating Gallifrey before bi-generating so we get Missy and Soy as desperate strands could work.

[@railfan711]

But what about what the Toy man said? He said the master was dying when he put him inside the gold tooth. We don't know what mast he was talking about.

[@CulturePhilter]

We don’t. That could be 5 regenerations after Spy master for all we know so it doesn’t have to affect this theory. But yes, it could absolutely be another way Missy survived.

[@bakaar6423]

1. Big Finish explains how Missy survives, a few years ago actually. 2. Bi-Generation, they don't splinter and each one carries on regenerating. Simm Master would not carry on along Spy, then regen into Missy. Just like the 14th Doctor won't regenerate into a new version, he knows 15 is after him.

[@CulturePhilter]

We don’t KNOW that 14 won’t regenerate. Not definitively. We may never know, or a future show runner may decided he does. Anything is possible.

[@enigmagenesis7341]

This is a great idea, as it doesn't cheapen Missy's redemption, or cheat the death that The Master himself said she couldn't regenerate from.

[@CulturePhilter]

Thanks. 🙂

[@joshuaverran9443]

@enigmagenesis That whole redemption arc was a load of crap The Master is a sociopath you can't change a sociopath no matter what you do even if she did go stand with the Doctor it would be for her own selfish reasons and eventually would double cross the Doctor The Master loves him/herself too much I'm glad he got back to being evil when she changed into Sacha ic you make the Master good it would just make the character boring

[@SnowLily06]

​​@@joshuaverran9443obviously she wasn't 100% redeemed but the spy master was just way too over the top with how evil he was. He seemed more evil and unhinged than any of his previous regenerations which seems stupid considering he would have just regenerated from Missy who threw her life away to stand with the doctor. Even John Simm's master had a bit of depth in his friendship with the doctor but the spy master was just a typical villain of the week who shows up and starts killing people with no explanation before being defeated and escaping

[@FrostyScarf]

The Master doesn't bi-generate in The Doctor falls, there's a set of canon audio dramas that explain what happens, Missy regenerates into "The Lumiat" a Incarnation of the Master who's a shadow of themselves similar to the valeyard but with the opposite affect making this new incarnation of the Master a embodiment of all of The Good that's inside The Master

[@CulturePhilter]

Ah yes, I haven’t actually listened to those audio’s yet but am aware of them. I think there would still be a way to make the two work together. After all , Sim’s master could bi generate and Missy could go on to also regenerate into The Lumiat.

[@friendlyotaku9525]

The Master dies but doesn't, thats just how the character is. They could burn to death in one episode and then appear fine the next time they appear!

[@CulturePhilter]

Sure. And we usually don’t find how how they survived. But that doesn’t mean we can’t have fun coming up with theories as how they did 😀

[@friendlyotaku9525]

@CulturePhilter oh yeah definitely!

[@malayekanwar]

And That's why it would have made more sense if the Master was The Timeless Child!

[@cam1e754]

Once they actually did burn to death i think it was the fire planet? Idk it was the one before the 5th doctor final

[@friendlyotaku9525]

@@cam1e754 that's what I was referring to, yeah!

[@Astroghostbase]

I would find it more believable that the Timelords revived plural iterations or timelines of The Master to fight in the Timewar

[@CulturePhilter]

Interesting idea. So in that scenario they revived the War Master ( Derek Jacobi) and Dhawan?

[@Astroghostbase]

If doing so, I believe the Timelords would have been as reckless conscripting versions of the Master into the war, as they believe the Master to be. Perhaps even repeatedly bringing in the same version to complete an objective, almost like what the Doctor experienced in Heaven Sent.

[@almighty7621]

Big Finish has created a character called the Lumiat, the Master's version of the Valeyard, who goes out in the universe doing good, instead of ruling and conquering it, and the Lumiat comes after Missy. When Missy was dying, she used something called the "Elysian field", which completely breaks down a time lord into atoms and molecules, rewriting their structure, rebuild themselves, editing their personality, and forces that time lord using the Elysian field to regenerate, even when they can't regenerate.

[@CulturePhilter]

I haven’t heard those audios but I am aware of them. I think they can still fit with the theory I put in this video though, Simm bi-generates creating Dhawan, Simm later regens into Missy who later uses Elysian field to survive getting shot by Simm and regenerate into Lumiat.

[@Concreteowl]

I wish they would stop going on about bigeneration. For it to happen that once was bad enough but to retroactively extend it as RTD suggests ruins 60 yrs of sad but beautiful moments.

[@CulturePhilter]

In fairness they don’t “keep” going on about no-regeneration. It’s me as a fan speculating who is. I do also find RTDs comments about it having happened to every Doctor that he made at the time confusing though. It makes no sense. But it was just something said in an interview, it doesn’t mean anything to the show unless he puts it on screen.

[@59rlmccormack]

Convoluted, very convoluted.

[@CulturePhilter]

No more than a lot of the show already. 😄

[@JustinMansfieldWho]

The Master has survived and regenerated in unexplained ways so many times… I gave up on caring about it making sense long ago. Thank you JNT.

[@CulturePhilter]

Yes and this may be another time we never get an explanation but it’s fun to speculate what the explanation COULD be 😄

[@JustinMansfieldWho]

@@CulturePhilter true, it is fun to speculate. I should’ve said it’s hard to care about it making sense after all the previous unexplained instances.

[@andrescarnederes2295]

I disagree with Missy not knowing about the timeless child. In 'The Magician's Apprentice' she says that she's been there for the doctor since he was "a little girl". I like to think that Missy is a far future incarnation who already experienced these events. Maybe Missy/The Master was also a timeless child (making the doctor and the master/missy more connected than we thought) and she/he along with the doctor passed through that portal.

[@CulturePhilter]

I’d forgotten about that little girl line. I think there are probably many ways to take that line but that is certainly one of the possibilities.

[@hunterkiller1440]

This is why I truly believes the Master is the REAL Timeless child and he's lying to the 13th Doctor. Always destroyed and always returns. Like a god.

[@CulturePhilter]

I think it could have been better for Timeless Child to be the Master. And there is always that flexibility for that reveal later I suppose. However I also quite like it being the Doctor too

[@lewischudley2621]

“Did the master bi-generate” short answer NO!!!!!!!!!

[@CulturePhilter]

🤣 you certainly seem very passionate about that opinion.

[@jasonpudwill1587]

Only one Time Lord bi-generated, The Doctor

[@SalooBC]

on the surface this is makes sense, but youve misinterpreted bi-generation and I think the easiest way to explain it is to go from the doctors perspective. 14 gets shot and bi-generates, from his perspective hes healed and a new version of him splits off from him, the finally happens and he lives a life with the nobles, but once he dies he would then proceed to regenerate into 15 and experience the bi-generation from the other perspective, so it doesnt create a new timelord, instead healing the current incarnation and bringing the next one to the present. I was in the same boat, interpreting it as splitting in 2, but after rewatching some scenes this other interpretation seems to be the intended one, like 15 saying hes older than 14, if they split of from one another they would be the same age, and 15 saying that the healing 14 is about to do is what allows him to be the way he is (i dont remember exactly what was said but I know its something along those lines). on top of all of this I also feel that from a story telling perspective this would feel weird, bi-generation was stated to be incredibly rare, so having the 2 most prominent timelords in the show bi-generate would feel like a huge coincident and in my opinion would feel unsatisfying and unbelievable.

[@CulturePhilter]

That is certainly one way to interpret bi-generation. But it’s not explicitly stated as such and therefore it’s up for grabs for any future show runner (or even the current one if he feels like it) to interpret in a different way. Currently I think what I’ve outlined here is still a possibility until it’s stated on screen that it’s not.

[@thehouseoflotta7108]

i suggested something like that ie the snake master

[@CulturePhilter]

There’s is an explanation for the snake master in the novilisation I think.

[@toast99bubbles]

It was a Deathworm Morphant.

[@selatidos]

i hope that if this theory is true and the master bi generated this means there will be a reedemed master and the spy/o/Rasputín master will still appear once more in ncuti gatwa s era in "season 2" only to regenerate again ,maybe the lumiat regenerating into an incarnation discovering the timeless child is a lie and she regenerated into someone more good despite missy being disgusted in a minor way comparative to the saxon Master in" the doctor falls"

[@CulturePhilter]

I’d like to see Dhawan’s master back and facing 15

[@timlemmens1087]

If Missy permanently died, then how did we get The Lumiat? 🤔

[@CulturePhilter]

Well as far as the Tv show has told us she was going to permanently die. But the Big Finish stuff with the Lumiat still works with this theory if it was Simm Master who bi-generated.

[@LaytonMathieson]

I'm not completely sold on this theory unfortunately. The way bigeneration seems to work is that the incarnation that split off is eventually the incarnation that the original will become later (in other words, 14 will eventually become 15), whereas this theory seems to suggest that Dhawan bigenerates out of Simm, who then turns into Gomez instead of Dhawan. The only way it would make any sort of sense with what we know about bigeneration is if Simm eventually became Dhawan, who then becomes Missy, which is essentially the exact same theory as "Dhawan is pre-Missy", bigeneration is irrelevant there. The thing many people seem to forget (or in some cases deliberately choose to ignore) when ignorantly labelling Dhawan's return to evil as a plot hole is that we have to take into consideration Missy's circumstances upon regeneration - firstly, people love to pretend that she was a saint by the end, that she was fully reformed, meaning she can't possibly have slipped back into her own ways - which is utter nonsense. It's going to take a hell of a lot more than a couple of good deeds to pull someone back from centuries of evil. Secondly, there's the inherent unpredictability of regeneration - just because one incarnation tried to be good near the end doesn't mean the next one will be. Next, consider the fact that Missy died without the Doctor coming back for her (not his choice, but he still didn't return), she was left to die on a spaceship, stranded near a black hole with no escape, with all the confusion of regeneration, it makes a hell of a lot of sense that the Master of all people would feel betrayed, and angry at the prospect of staying with humans (and Nardole). And finally, the straw that broke the camel's back, the Timeless Child. Even if the Dhawan incarnation was of relatively sound mind post-regeneration after being effectively abandoned by the Doctor and left stranded by a black hole, this discovery would undoubtedly tip him over the edge, back to his old ways. It really isn't the plot hole people love to pretend it is.

[@CulturePhilter]

To be fair we don’t KNOW that 14 sort of becomes 15 at the end of his life. That’s an assumption based on an interpretation of one line. There’s more than enough flexibility for that not to be the case as well…. At least there is at the moment until it’s firmed up on screen more definitively

[@LaytonMathieson]

@@CulturePhilter I think it's definitely the route they're going though, I don't really see what other interpretation could be made from "I'm fine because you fixed yourself". If 14 doesn't become 15, how can 15 then be impacted by actions 14 makes in the future?

[@TemporalsonToys]

Wasn’t it implied the timeless child was a game between the master and the toymaker after he found him or her dieing. Meaning the master might have made the bad decisions as he was playing a game with the toymaker (trying to win at all costs).

[@CulturePhilter]

Are you saying that every time we saw the master in 13s era he was in the middle of a game with the toy maker?

[@mattoryu]

but didn't bigeneration only happen because of the toymaker's reality warping abilities in the 60th specials? what would've caused the bigeneration to happen if there wasn't an outside force making the myth of bigeneration into reality?

[@CulturePhilter]

It’s only speculation that that is the reason it happens.

[@Moviespelunker]

I like it but I honestly think it's overcomplicating things a bit, Spy Master could still be the one to know about the timeless child after regenerating from Missy, hey, maybe that's why he broke bad again, I do like that maybe Simms bi-gen into both Missy and O, but I feel it goes Simms > Spy Master > Missy

[@CulturePhilter]

But if that’s the order then all through series 8 to 10 Missy knew about the Timeless child and her own devastation of Gallifrey. That doesn’t seem to track.

[@Moviespelunker]

@@CulturePhilter ooo okay I see it now! Hmm. Best I can assume is memory wipe when regenerating, but there's no evidence that happens to the master, only that it's happened to the doctor. Hmmm, I do like the Bigenerating into both, maybe the doctors words got to the master as he died and forced it to happen so that all the evil goes into Spy. If something happens to the doctor, should we assume the master or any other time lords can also deal with the same thing?

[@toast99bubbles]

The Lumiat comes directly after Missy and Spy Master somehow later. The answer to how Missy survived is that the Matter always survives. It's very simple. The bi-generation for the Doctor was a different thing, where the Toymaker, having been brought into N-Space by the Doctor using superstition with the salt trick to stop the beings in Wild Blue Yonder, meant that reality was in flux and that mythology and reality were intertwined.

[@CulturePhilter]

The master bi-generating can absolutely work alongside the Lumiat stuff. Simm’s master bi-generates creating Dhawan’s and then later Simm regenerates into Missy who goes on to regenerate into Lumiat.

[@toast99bubbles]

​@@CulturePhilter That's under the assumption that after bi-generating, a Time Lord can continue to regenerate, which is the opposite of what RTD has said. Also, what would have caused the Master to bi-generate? The only reason it happened to the Doctor is because of the whole thing where the Toymaker's domain when combined with N-Space makes it so that the lines between mythology and reality are blurred, which was caused by the salt incident in Wild Blue Yonder. Plus there is a lot of different biology between the Doctor and the Master, as explained by the whole Timeless Child arc, so it could just be something that was limited to whatever species the Doctor actually is a part of and not to Gallifreyans that have the ability to regenerate.

[@CulturePhilter]

@@toast99bubbles did RTD specifically say that? Where was that? But even if he did it doesn’t really matter, stuff said in interviews can absolutely be ignored by future showrunners or even the same showrunner if they just change their mind. Also nothing on screen confirms that Doctor only bi-generated because of the Toymaker stuff. It’s just speculation. Valid speculation but by no means the only interpretation of what we saw.

[@toast99bubbles]

@@CulturePhilter He specifically said it in the commentary for The Giggle, if I'm remembering correctly. Although the stuff about why the Doctor bi-generated is confirmed in the novelisation of The Giggle, I'm pretty sure. I've read other stuff since, so I am just going by memory.

[@markpostgate2551]

Winston Wolfe couldn't clean up the mess Chibnall made of Doctor Who continuity.

[@CulturePhilter]

Who is Winston Wolfe?

[@markpostgate2551]

@@CulturePhilter The Harvey Keitel character in Pulp Fiction (aka the cleaner).

[@CulturePhilter]

@@markpostgate2551 ah, ok.

[@ReuHR]

for what i see i think both bi-genearted incarnations can reganate but one of them wont change face nor age thats probbaly why the bi-genearation happened it was a way to get around losing tennant and having to explain how his face came back for future stories

[@CulturePhilter]

Oh the behind the scenes reason for Bi-generation is absolutely so they can use Tennant again without having to explain why he’s aged, yes.

[@kylerees3491]

I don't think it needs to be answered we hardly know anything about his first 12 incarnations so I don't think we really need to know who regenerated into who with the master just leave it up to fans interpretation

[@CulturePhilter]

Right… fan speculation, which is what this is 🙂😁

[@CJ-qp7hi]

I think the masters from another universe, alongside the division, bel and vendor. fugitive is a future doctor after 15th doctor is forced to becoming the timeless child, creating a new history, creating a split parallel timeline, ‘division universe’ Fugitive later sends bel and vendor child to the church on ruby road to eventually meet 15 After the tardis took fugitive to the original universe to learn of her past as 1-15. Born as a parallel doctor but never made it to the academy in the division timeline, Ruby, sent to earth avert the division timeline by switching places with the doctor and gifted the fob-watch. Unable to create the divisions timeline but able to guide new Gallifeay away from the time war. After 13 fell to earth the tardis traded places to save fugitive from the division. As a result 13 onwards sees there future out of order after finding fugitives tardis at ghost monument

[@CulturePhilter]

In this theory is the Master from same universe as the Doctor (ie: same as The Timeless child) ?

[@CJ-qp7hi]

@@CulturePhilter By the doctor (15-16) becoming timeless child creates a rewritten or parallel timeline, the spy master was born into, then crossed into 13s original timeline via boundaries division used connecting both timelines.

[@CJ-qp7hi]

@@CulturePhilter - more in depth ( I get bored) Creating the whoniverse The time war unfolded, paving the way for the Bad Wolf phenomenon. Bad Wolf's existence was crucial for the salvation of Gallifrey. The rescue of Gallifrey set in motion the formation of the cracks in time. These cracks extended the Doctor's life. The Doctor's prolonged life was necessary to persuade the first Doctor to regenerate. The encounter between the first and twelfth Doctors shaped 2-11's journey into becoming the twelfth. This created a fixed event in time, leading to the TARDIS dropping the thirteenth Doctor to Earth. The thirteenth Doctor, now immortal with regenerative abilities, shares similarities with the Timeless Child. The Doctor's destiny inevitably leads to becoming the Timeless Child, with the TARDIS finding the Doctor's future after the Fugitive Doctor's salvation. Thirteen experiences this future out of sequence due to the TARDIS trading Doctors, saving the Fugitive Doctor from the Division, and finding Fugitive Doctor's TARDIS at the Ghost Monument. Thirteen, constructing her sonic screwdriver on Earth without the software from the previous sonic, remained unaware of the TARDIS's unknown trade, leading to her being oblivious to Missy and the Master's previous deaths and their crossing into different universes. The intricate layers of time and the Doctor's timeline continue to unfold in unexpected ways. Fugitive prevents her own Division-ruled future, and in doing so, alters the Doctor's timeline. Ruby Sunday, child of Bel and Vindor, left at Ruby Road, plays a crucial role in unwriting the Division and allowing a new Gallifrey to take its place. The Flux leads the Grand Serpent (Rassilon) to deep space, striking a deal with a trickster, eventually leading the Tenth and Fourteenth Doctors to Donna. This results in the permanent return of the Doctor Donna, sparking the fifteenth Doctor's regeneration with memory loss. The Doctor Donna Hybrid stands in the ruins of the original Gallifrey as prophecy unfolds. The Fugitive, as the future Doctor, intersects with the fifteenth regeneration, guiding them to Ruby Road to understand the necessity of becoming the Timeless Child. This allows Ruby to be born, unwriting the Division and ensuring the continuation of the new universe. The sequence of events repeats, with Lulubell and Mrs. Flood being future versions of Ruby and the next parallel Doctor born in the subsequent timeline. The Whoniverse's origin traces back to William Hartnell's first Doctor meeting Peter Capaldi's twelfth Doctor. The Doctor's encounter with Professor Yana, who was revealed as the Master, was essential for guiding the Tenth Doctor to his regeneration. This regeneration led Clara to the Eleventh Doctor, playing a crucial role in the plan to save Gallifrey. The Eleventh Doctor's actions then set in motion a series of events, including leading the Twelfth Doctor to the trap street. The trap street was influenced by the Twelfth Doctor's familiar face from Pompeii, who granted Ashildr immortality. This immortality, in turn, attracted the attention of Rassilon, leading him to Earth and eventually becoming the Grand Serpent. The intricate web of connections showcases the interconnected nature of the Doctor's timeline, where each meeting and decision shape the course of events across time and space. Indeed, this rich tapestry of the Doctor's timeline opens up exciting possibilities for spinoffs and a vast "Whoniverse." A Fugitive's timeline exploring the Timeless Child's prequel could seamlessly link classic, reboot, and Whoniverse eras, providing a captivating journey through the Doctor's history. Ruby, the new Doctor in a new universe, offers a fresh perspective, retelling classic stories with alternative narratives on a modern budget, breathing new life into familiar tales. DrDonna on Earth working for UNIT adds another dynamic layer, blending the Doctor's adventures with the complexities of Earth's defense against extraterrestrial threats. The Original Doctor, with the ability to travel anywhere within the Whoniverse, provides an opportunity to explore uncharted territories and revisit iconic moments, creating a sense of continuity and nostalgia. These spinoffs promise to enrich the Doctor Who experience, offering fans diverse and interconnected stories across time, space, and different incarnations of the beloved Time Lord.

[@CulturePhilter]

@@CJ-qp7hi boy that IS in depth. You’ve really thought about this 😁

[@CJ-qp7hi]

@@CulturePhilter lockdown changed me 😂😂

[@kylelacey8036]

I reckon he did with john simms and Michelle gomez

[@CulturePhilter]

Do you mean bi-generated twice or once when he turned from John Simm into Michelle Gomez?

[@kylelacey8036]

@@CulturePhilter how do you explain john simm and Michelle gomez in the same episode

[@CulturePhilter]

@@kylelacey8036 it’s a time travel show.

[@kylelacey8036]

@@CulturePhilter yes but ì john simms pulling out Michelle gomez

[@RoyalAce19]

I don’t think it works because bi-regeneration is current splitting into future with explanation that current still becomes future when they regenerate

[@CulturePhilter]

The “becoming future when they regenerate” isn’t something confirmed on screen. It’s certainly *A* valid interpretation of one line. But it’s not actually said that’s what happens therefore it’s still not known fact. Just a theory in itself.

[@mrshannonite4016]

May I reference Deadly Assassin and The Movie? The Master has proven that he/she/attack helicopter can survive beyond death and steal someone elses body. I maybe wrong here, but I'm almost sure that Sacha Dhawan as a stolen body. But saying that, it far from diminishes your theory and poses some good question.

[@CulturePhilter]

I don’t think he STOLE a body as such, more made himself look like the original person (maybe through as part of regeneration?) the reason I say that is that he has the original O’s miniaturized body in a matchbox. So he didn’t steal it to inhabit himself. On a completely separate note, and I’m really not saying this in a having a go way, more a hopefully helpful way - but “Attack helicopter” jokes just aren’t funny and due to its repeated use by bigots might make people assume you are one too even if you’re not. I generally like to give people the benefit of the doubt though, it’s easy to reel off a joke you’ve heard elsewhere without really thinking about it. I know I have.

[@CulturePhilter]

I don’t think he STOLE a body as such, more made himself look like the original person (maybe through as part of regeneration?) the reason I say that is that he has the original O’s miniaturized body in a matchbox. So he didn’t steal it to inhabit himself. On a completely separate note, and I’m really not saying this in a having a go way, more a hopefully helpful way - but “Attack helicopter” jokes just aren’t funny and due to its repeated use by bigots might make people assume you are one too even if you’re not. I generally like to give people the benefit of the doubt though, it’s easy to reel off a joke you’ve heard elsewhere without really thinking about it. I know I have.

[@mrshannonite4016]

@@CulturePhilter Ah, miniaturization... the process that makes me question every whovians figure collection, lol

[@vortexalliance9938]

I'm sorry but no. Bi-generation is stupid and shouldn't be mentioned again. For the character arc stuff, just blame chibnall rubbish writing

[@kylerees3491]

Chibnall didn't write the bi-generation

[@CulturePhilter]

Bi-generation itself as a concept isn’t any more stupid than regeneration is or any other sci-fi fancy stuff the show makes up. I do think the way it’s USED I. the Goggle has some issues, mainly relating to 14th Doctor hanging out on earth but presumably not getting involved in all future alien incursions (because otherwise every modern day earth set story from now on would be a multi-Doctor one)

[@CulturePhilter]

I think they were talking about fact that Spy Master goes back on Missy’s character development being Chibnall.

[@vortexalliance9938]

​​@kylerees3491 Like Philip said I was talking about the master being evil again and ignoring missy for chibs bad writing

[@kylerees3491]

@@CulturePhilter my main problem was 14 getting a tardis when the point was for him to stay on earth and basically retire, him having a tardis now makes it possible for him to still get involved with the threats even though the point was for him to stay on earth with Donna and her family