Did Tolkien Hate...Everything?

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

Use code SHIRE for 51% Off Any Yearly Subscription: www.worldanvil.com/?c=JessoftheShire

[@neilbiggs1353]

(or don't because the creators are friends of mine so give them all the money... ;-) )

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

You know you're cool when you're getting sponsored by those who have repeatedly sponsored Overly Sarcastic Productions in the past!

[@kungfreddie]

Have u gotten a boob job? Pregnant?😮

[@douglasjenkins2770]

Now I just want to add it is hard not to see Tolkien as a "Character" he was known to dress up in full viking gear and chase his neighbors when they returned home late or that one time him and C.S Lewis showed up to a Oxford Don party dressed as polar bears

[@tnndll4294]

2 extremes: Purists like Chris Tolkien (who didn't know how to make a movie). & Amazon which doesn't give a sh!t about the lore.

[@nathanbarr1237]

Trees. The man liked him some trees

[@davidthurman3963]

Trees are wonderful beings.i am a bit like radagast. So was John Muir and others.

[@KuLaydMahn]

And dogs. I bet he liked dogs, too.

[@SEDYT358]

@@davidthurman3963 Famed naturalist John Muir? :O

[@DumAzzFairy]

Was going to comment this 😂😂😂😂

[@orthicon9]

Probably horses too.

[@beatrixwickson8477]

Tolkien is on the record as liking stone, wood, iron, trees, grass, houses, fire; bread and wine. But he was keeping his watchful eye on iron, fire and wine.

[@TheHiggybaby]

And tobacco/pipes. Perhaps the most important enjoyment of all.

[@beatrixwickson8477]

​@@TheHiggybabyI totally agree lol I'm referencing a quote: "We need, in any case, to clean our windows; so that the things seen clearly may be freed from the drab blur of triteness or familiarity... It was in fairy-stories that I first divined the potency of the words, and the wonder of the things, such as stone, and wood, and iron; tree and grass; house and fire; bread and wine." -J.R.R. Tolkien, On Fairy Stories So, to my mind I file it under"grass" lol

[@jovianmelendez]

so what you're telling me is that Tolkien canonically touched grass?

[@Big_Stink]

He would've hated Iron and Wine The band

[@greggougeon4422]

And his wife he absolutely adored her.

[@TheHiggybaby]

Tolkien, watching this video: "...I don't like it." ;)

[@JediJared-bs1wt]

Honestly he’d probably have a hard time understanding how the internet even works before he could form an opinion on it

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

@@Jess_of_the_Shire Indeed! I really resonated with some of the points you made at the end because I too read a considerable amount but find myself not particularly enjoying more than a few of those books because I'm too particular for my own good.

[@BartdeBoisblanc]

That's what the Doctor said. 😁

[@poe-n8b]

with EXTREME intensity as well

[@leonardpimentel5865]

lolol. nice

[@marieroberts5664]

"It is also said that 'Go not to the Elves for advice, for they will say both yea and nay' ". Tolkien was an Elf.

[@maxsync183]

elves really do get away with being right gits but you can never call them out because they're elves

[@jromero9795]

​@@maxsync183Not in my house

[@silknsapphires]

I'd argue that he was more of a hobbit.

[@CharlesHorning]

@@silknsapphiresmy friend he was all of it.

[@keeganroot7376]

@@CharlesHorningbasically Eru Illuvatar

[@Matheusss89]

I've seen so many of those clickbait videos. Tolkien says "it's alright.. not my type though", and they title the video "WHY TOLKIEN ABSOLUTELY HATED X". Every damn time.

[@clan741]

People are weird. They can’t comprehend nuance so they only think in love and hate.

[@pvzgamer6029]

Judging from how calm Tolkien usually sounds, I can see him absolutely saying something like “eh it’s okay”

[@svr5423]

@@clan741 there is a demand for this content. It is part of human nature.

[@blowfishfootman]

@@clan741or moreso that nuance doesnt get the same reaction

[@blowfishfootman]

@@clan741polarizing things means strong reactions and more attention

[@Dyundu]

He was an academic. Complaining is our culture.

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

Succinctly put!

[@marshillmike]

@@Jess_of_the_Shire brevity is the soul of wit.

[@heatherharrison264]

Academics have transformed the act of complaining into an art form.

[@greensleevez]

Ah, the venerable "contemptus mundi" tradition. ;)

[@greensleevez]

@@heatherharrison264 ...we just call it Critical Theory, because title case, of course.

[@venomdrenched]

21:35 "I don't like fiction. I love it. If I don't love it, I don't swallow." -- Tolkien, before taking a bite out of his 400th-devoured copy of Beowulf

[@Hermantis]

One subtlety of opinion that often gets lost in today's polarizing discourses is the ability to like a thing in one way, but dislike it in another. We tend to be all-or-nothing in the way we talk about people's opinions, but this is not necessarily how we think about complex things. I am perfectly capable of appreciating the narriative composition of A Song of Ice and Fire, for example, while intensely disliking its general themes. It's rather unfair to assume that Tolkien hated the WHOLE of a work or idea simply because he disliked an ASPECT of that work. (Except, apparently, Disney.) Great job, Jess!

[@Dernellar]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being critical of culture and demanding quality from fiction authors. Nowadays, the entertainment companies have created that narrative that customer should accept everything they release and that critique is "toxic", to maximize their potential sales. One can like a work but still criticize it. Also, of course, every person is different and will like different things.

[@sickjoe9174]

Think a lot of people are being performative with their level of dedication to an IP, either that or they are tying too much of their identity to it and so an attack on one is an attack on the other. Like you're criticizing their tastes instead of just enlightening them on the boundaries of your own.

[@imperialinquisition6006]

@@sickjoe9174 There are a lot of online Lord of the Rings fans like this. They seem to spend more time complaining about how much they dislike everything else rather than talking about Lord of the RIngs.

[@torinju]

@@Dernellar There is a lot of toxic fandom though. A lot of stuff being judged through a political lense, a lot of 'It's popular now, so now it sucks', a lot of 'too many brown people' and a lot of hunting for anything to be negative about.

[@GeneralJerrard101]

This comment has a like button and a dislike button. Unfortunately there is no, "I agree with the general point but am slightly put off by the delivery and it's assertive tone," button.

[@therealelderking5830]

I love how KZbin is full of videos like "Tolkien hated X or Y" but none of them talk about how Tolkien hated cats, which is ironically more well documented and is likely more true than any of the other things lol. Great video, bringing nuance instead of clickbait content!

[@BlindBosnian]

Hating cats seems to be pretty common among people who deeply care for the environment. Pentti Linkola was like that was well

[@ИринаУстюгова-ъ5щ]

​@@BlindBosnianThis is fucking stupid. Humans do more harm to the environment than any animal.

[@sunderland69]

What do cats do to the environment? If anything, it makes more sense to hate people, their influence is much more atrocious, lol.

[@GeneralJerrard101]

Tolkien changing his mind on cars is so rad. People don't stay the same, and can revise their beliefs. Like into hating cars.

[@CaptainHat]

It's kinda weird maybe but speaking specifically as someone who likes cars and enjoys driving I hate the way modern transport is so car-centric; I hate the fact that people need cars, and I hate the way cars are prioritised in infrastructure. People (including me!) should be on public transport, walking or cycling most of the time! I should be able to treat my car as a hobby, not a necessity!

[@newsaxonyproductions7871]

Tolkien was orangepilled before NJB was born 😎

[@xolotltolox7626]

Hell, even lovecraft became significantly less racist in his later life

[@MerlinTheCommenter]

@@xolotltolox7626shhhh don’t mention Lovecraft actually developing as a person. That’ll offend the people calling themselves “race realists.” 🤡

[@rikhuravidansker]

@@newsaxonyproductions7871 Orangepilled?

[@KaelynRowk]

Tolkien 🤝 Miyazaki Hating on everything If Tolkien was alive he could hate Miyazaki back. What are legends 😌

[@TransRoofKorean]

I think they'd get along just fine. What Tolkien was to European mythology, presenting it as real European pre-history, Miyazaki did much the same for Japan. Honestly, I think they'd be great friends.

[@Discordia5]

​@@TransRoofKorean apparently miyazaki had gone on record saying he doesnt like lord of the rings.

[@zera2314]

@@Discordia5 That's okay. Miyazaki is human and capable of having bad taste.

[@konstantinriumin2657]

@@Discordia5 Movie, not book. Hobbit is one of his favorite "books for children"

[@jeffreygao3956]

@@Discordia5 Strange, I'm sure it does have environmentalism references and is super anti-war.

[@williampalmer8052]

Tolkien has become a mythical figure in his own right, and like so many others, there is a tendency to assign to him qualities that are currently fashionable, and for individuals to project upon him their own values. In a world that is increasingly full of armchair crtics, it's not surprising that people would look for that same kind of curmudgeonliness from their mythic hero. In this context, I think you do a great service by reminding us that there was a more well-rounded person behind the legend, and by making us consider if we see Tolkien as he was, or as who we wish him to be.

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

This is an excellent way to put it. Thanks for watching and commenting!

[@whade62000]

You're right on point. It happens to most historical celebrities - people start to simplify (TvTropes'd call "flanderize") them to match a popular stereotype at the time that's more easily digestiblefor the masses.

[@specialnewb9821]

I would call him a curmudgeon though

[@InkandFantasy]

This was a wonderfully made video, with some very good points! As the person who started the "Why Tolkien Hated X" series, I feel a lot of responsibility regarding the topic. It all began as a title idea from one of his quotes, in which he stated that he hated the Roman Empire, so I ran with it for the title "Why Tolkien Hated the Roman Empire," which was, word for word, what he said. Later, because the Roman video blew up, I used his "loathing" in reference to Disney in order to justify continuing this title format for the Disney video. His wish that cars had never been invented served as justification for the car video, calling Narnia "useless" for the Narnia video, saying that he "cordially disliked" Shakespeare and wishing him the plague for the Shakespeare video, and so forth. The truth is that the massive appeal that the algorithm provides to such titles is absolutely incomprehensible, as you stated with your own Dune video. As content creators, we take what we feel is the essence of Tolkien's words and turn them into titles that people will click on and then, through our sources and our arguments and the nuance within the video, we wish to make sure that the viewer gets the entire picture hidden behind the title. What I noticed from the tens of thousands of comments throughout these videos is that a lot of people don’t actually watch their entirety or only pay attention to the biases they already have. For the Narnia video, I mentioned that he gifted Narnia to his granddaughter, and I quoted the same quote as you, but people did not particularly care. In the Disney video, I mentioned the nuance of children's education and noted that Tolkien was not a hater of individuals. But since people hate Disney nowadays, they didn’t care, and jumped on the Disney hate without a second thought. On the other hand, in the Shakespeare video, there was pushback from people who liked Shakespeare and support from those who didn’t, completely ignoring the actual points of the video regarding elves and Macbeth and commenting based only on the title of the video without having watched it. Like you, I've been getting comments like "Tolkien seems to hate everything and is a hater," when I feel like the arguments of the actual videos paint the opposite picture, even though the title isn't really incorrect. Yes, he hated the Roman Empire because he hated imperialism and genocide. Yes, he hated the mass production of cars and industrialization because he loved the environment and the countryside. Yes, he hated Disney's products because they were debasing the childhoods of children. The fact that the title says "Tolkien Hated X" does not mean that the man was a hater, because if you watch the video, you'll see that his reasons almost always came from a place of care and love, which I would like to believe I have managed to capture in the videos themselves. The problem is, as you said, people like the negativity, the nuance is lost, and ultimately people support or oppose based on their own prejudices on the subject. That's why I've personally decided to drop those titles from now on, as I feel like the trends toward negativity that you mentioned are too real and not particularly healthy for the Tolkien space, provided that the nuance of the discussions is lost. Yes, the titles are profitable, and I will never regret those videos as I believe, if you actually watched them, they painted a decent picture on their respective subjects, but I will come up with newer and better things. Wonderful video yet again, and congratulations on your channel's success. I wish you all the best!

[@jacykeenan9916]

InkandFantasy is a great channel! I'm a subscriber, and I look forward to your videos every week. Please don't change a thing.

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

Hello! Thank you so much for watching! I've made my own fair share of "Tolkien hated __" videos, and I mourn the fact that they tend to do better than anything else on the channel. It's nearly impossible to get new folks to a video without an engaging title or thumb, and negativity truly is the most engaging these days. I tend to avoid watching other Tolkien youtubers content because I don't want them to affect my own work, but what I've watched of your videos have always been well made and thoroughly researched. I'd much rather someone who's actually trying to make nuanced, real content make the videos and pop off with the algorithm than AI generated hate-bait trash. Overall, I think creators and ESPECIALLY audiences need to just keep an eye out for the biases the internet throws at them, because it's so easy to take things at face value and forget that history and literature exist outside of the internet biases. As creators, we're just trying to find the balance, and I truly admire anyone trying to figure out how to make art on a platform as fickle as the internet. Best of luck with future videos! Thank you again for watching and taking the time to comment.

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

I'm sorry that you've had to deal with that. Have you at all considered retitling your older videos or would you prefer to leave them as is? It's terrible that I even have to say this, but I feel like with how audiences are that creators should disclose at the beginnings of their videos that the viewers should wait for all the points to made by the end before commenting. If you're typing a comment early on then maybe hold off before posting it in case the creator addresses a point or answers a question that you thought you were being clever about by typing it. Perhaps leaving pinned comments under your older videos and even future ones addressing these concerns may be in order.

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

@@Jess_of_the_Shire A big part of why I got into your channel is that as someone with minor generalized anxiety I was in a bad state of mind as a result of the negative online content that I used to watch and greatly appreciated finding a channel that was thankfully chill and far more nuanced. I specifically used to watch a bunch of overly long BreadTube/LefTube video essays that lacked conciseness, had way too much emphasis on theatricality, and had a bit of a reactionary, doomer mindset. The core values being promoted were great, of course, but there was no nuance, a lot of reading between the lines/projecting that posed as nuance, and so much negativity with the mindset of everything being awful. You rarely put out super long videos and when you do the length is warranted and you're very concise with your points. I have in the past looked at what your most popular videos were and how you felt about that fact, so although I'm glad to have an answer I am sorry that many of your other wonderful videos haven't gotten the same deserved numbers. Also, there have been past instances where I recommended other Tolkien KZbinrs such as Girl Next Gondor in the comments under your videos, but I promise to stop going forward for the reasons that you mentioned.

[@generalj216]

Love your stuff man!

[@11orana]

C S Lewis wrote this about another Inkling, Owen Barfield: "Of course he shares your interests; otherwise he would not become your friend at all. But he has approached them all at a different angle. He has read all the right books but has got the wrong thing out of every one."

[@LoyalandTrue.]

I wouldn't put much thought into the quote of an Anglophobe.

[@talithakoum3922]

​@@LoyalandTrue. On what planet does Lewis, who only rarely referred to himself as Irish, qualify as an Anglophobe? The man was as British as afternoon tea ☕

[@LoyalandTrue.]

@@talithakoum3922 Do look up the definition. He clearly had prejudices against England.

[@JaimeTanner-b2i]

​@@LoyalandTrue.And he is welcome to them. Everyman has them, will be or nil he, and this takes away from his character not one whit. I, myself, despise Rhode Islanders, excepting my several close friends from there.

[@LoyalandTrue.]

@@JaimeTanner-b2i No one has rights to anti-English thoughts. I can't speak on Rhodes, as I've never been to Greece and don't plan to.

[@ZemplinTemplar]

Professor Tolkien on cars: "Love them. Love riding them, like driving them." Then follows it up with an explanation that too many cars is more of an issue, multiplication tables, multiplying social, economic and environmental issues linked to cars and motorism, etc. He certainly loved philology, linguistics, languages and old literature. Otherwise he wouldn't become such a pioneer in consistently constructed artistic languages. Also a nature lover, unpretentious food lover, and he clearly had at least an amateur interest in illustrations (all his postcards and his own illustrations) and in calligraphy (for his fictional scripts). :-)

[@jeffreygao3956]

But what would he think of Native American languages?

[@blob22201]

Reading some Anglo-Saxon poetry you can see how much he loved them. From the Rohirrim basically being Anglo-Saxons on horses to the riddle game. Its honestly very sweet and his love of them helped me get into their history and literature as well.

[@SNWWRNNG]

The Rohirrim are almost like Tolkien's wish fulfillment - if only the Anglo-Saxons had skilled cavalry, the "disaster of 1066" (as Tolkien called it) could have been averted.

[@jeffreygao3956]

@@SNWWRNNG Eh, I'm more... Kicking butt and taking names! Normandy's here to win the games! GOOO NORMANDY!

[@handlessuck777]

​@@jeffreygao3956Where's this attitude against the rise of Islam in Europe?

[@BrotherhoodWorkshop]

Thanks for this video! I'm a lifelong Tolkien fan, and even I had fallen into the trap of perceiving him as a cranky caricature. I appreciate the nuanced view you have introduced me to.

[@SirBoggins]

"Did Tolkien hate everything?" "Well yes, but actually no..."

[@SirBoggins]

@@RandomGuy-lu1en XD

[@marieroberts5664]

"It is also said, 'Go not to the Elves for advice, for they will say both yes and nay' ". Tolkien is an Elf.

[@Bigdave203]

When you write the greatest books the world has ever seen, everything will pale by comparison.

[@NaciforeverArida]

@@Bigdave203 wow i dont even know that... did tolkien write the brothers karamazov?

[@pllpsy665]

He loved pineapple on pizza.

[@thomaskalinowski8851]

You know who else hated ballpoint pens? George Orwell. Remember that scene in 1984 where Winston Smith insists on writing with an archaic fountain pen?

[@Granitetron]

Evidence exists showing he didn't hate describing things

[@alphax4785]

'A picture is worth a thousand words.' Tolkien: Challenge accepted!

[@sirequinox4874]

It has been reported that when asked about Robert E. Howard's Conan stories Tolkien said he "rather liked them." I am pleased by that. It makes him seem less stodgy and stuffy (which I realize may be an unfair characterization of him in the first place). It's a just plain cool fact about him.

[@Ranben.]

The source of that rumour is very iffy (Lin Carter). If Tolkien had problems with Wagner and Eddison, he would not be a 100% Conan fan.

[@joncarroll2040]

​@@Ranben. The source is actually L Sprague De Camp who sent Tolkien a copy of an anthology he had edited that included one Howard story (I believe it was Iron Shadows in the Moon). Tolkien specifically told DeCamp in person that he liked the one Conan story included but even DeCamp did not think from the conversation that Tolkien had ever read anything beyond that one story. And it doesn't make sense that he would have. Tolkien almost certainly wouldn't have seen the original pulp versions of Howard's fiction and the book versions DeCamp edited with Carter were not widely available in the UK

[@Ranben.]

@@joncarroll2040 Yes that was my mistake you are right.

[@minicle426]

Reported, as in probably not true.

[@ElvenRaptor]

@sirquinox4874 That's hilarious, because when the Peter Jackson films were still in the process of being released, there was a weird Lord of the Rings vs. Conan fandom rivalry going on. If the hardcore Howard fans knew that Tolkien rather liked Howard's work, I wonder if that would have impacted how they approached the situation. For context, the Tolkien fans vs. Howard fans rivalry was mostly immature name calling and generalization. Howard fans were calling LotR "kiddie" and that their (at the time) upcoming Conan reboot (the one that ended up starring Jason Mamoa) was gonna take out Lord of the Rings. That "Tolkien fans had their time, but Canon was coming." And the LotR fans were just as bad, calling Howard's work "a child's idea of mature" and stuff like that.

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

“I realized a while back, when I was mainly writing comics, that a lot of great stories draw on mythic archetypes. The stories that last, that keep on getting told from generation to generation, are the ones that touch on something really powerful or at least really universal - something that people recognize when they see it and respond to. Tolkien disapproved of Lewis’ Narnia books because they worked by analogy, taking an existing myth and retelling it with different names and circumstances, whereas he felt that you should make your own myth out of whole cloth. But it's not possible to read The Silmarillion without seeing how Sauron’s fall mirrors Satan’s. It’s only a question of how you triangulate your relationship to your source material. Every story has the DNA of older stories buried inside it.” - M. R. Carey in an interview for the extras section at the back of his novel The Girl With All The Gifts (only slightly altered with American spelling and a removed comma that Word said was grammatically incorrect when I originally transcribed it)

[@thekaxmax]

but Satan's Fall is a fanfic

[@irinaiturri]

@@thekaxmax a fanfic that gained mythical proportions

[@LordSiravant]

You mean Melkor's fall, since he was actually Tolkien's Satanic character.

[@INTCUWUSIUA]

@@irinaiturri And strictly speking, the whole new testament is just unusually popular fanfiction

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

@@INTCUWUSIUA Yep! There are indeed some discrepancies. One of my proudest academic moments was when in an intro philosophy course I cited the platypus as evidence against intelligent design because the god of the Old Testament would never have the sense of humor required for that particular oddity. Evolution has no plan, it makes frequent and catastrophic mistakes.

[@Oakleaf012]

I think about the internet, and especially social media, as a lot like the Palantir. Sure, you can use it to gain knowledge from afar, but you have to be careful who’s giving that knowledge, and what they want you to see. So basically I’m saying Denethor was doomscrolling 😂 Jokes aside, this was a lovely essay, Jess, thank you for all your nuance (heh) and for the respect and humanity you give both your sources, like Tolkien, and your audience ❤

[@verity231]

That's a very astute observation, actually. And considering the personalised content meant to elicit a highly emotional and negative reaction, it is basically Sauron manipulating what could be seen in the Palantir.

[@NiallMor]

“Denethor was doomscrolling.” I’m going to have to remember that one. 😉

[@paulvonhindenburg4727]

Marshall McLuhan would probably agree with you

[@javiersoria3913]

Yes, Sauron would definitely use social media to manipulate. There's a correlation between social media and the polarization that is happening in the last decade in most western democracies.

[@banhammer3904]

The Black Tower of Baradur (and Orthanc) is an obvious symbol for Jeremy Bentham's panopticon, the prison system of constant surveillance.

[@dhaucoin]

I think 'The Lord of the Rings' being classified as, 'science fiction' falls mostly on the publishers, and cultural tastes of the time. 'Fantasy' novels, as we know and enjoy them, just didn't exist. There were myths and 'fairy stories,' yes, but the so-called 'high fantasy' of TLotR was new. Publishers had no idea how to market it. Ah, but there's this 'science fiction' thing gaining popularity, ain't there? Wells, Verne, the film 'Metropolis,' and others, all gave something the public could latch onto for something new and 'fantastic" in the bookstores.

Yes, fantasy at that time was aimed to children and teenagers. You can see it in The Hobbit that has a lighter writing tone, at least in the beginning. LOTR is too dark to be catered to children, and adults would be seen dead before buying fantasy. So sci-fi it is!

[@Agustin_Leal]

There were Portal Fantasy and Sword and Sorcery.

[@cha5]

Actually Dark Fantasy stories from the works of R. W. Chambers and Arthur Machen and Lord Dunsany and Ambrose Bierce to H. P. Lovecraft predate Tolkien in their own way as far as fantasy goes and they had their own impact on it, in short fantasy stories outside of fairy tales and children’s literature most certainly existed prior to Tolkien. The Hobbit and LOTR didn’t create the fantasy genre out of a vacuum. Although I’ll admit that The Hobbit and LOTR certainly set the standard for marketing it.

[@dhaucoin]

@@cha5 All true, and thank you for the assist. Perhaps I waan't completely clear. I was refering to why Tolkein's books might have been marketed to readers as, 'science fiction,' rather than 'fantasy,' as such. To the publishing world, as well as general adult readers, there wasn't a lot of shelf space for such high concept 'fairy tales'. Even Lovecraft was relegated to sellimg his stories in pulp magazines while he was alive. Hell, even nowadays, visit your local Barnes & Noble, and both SF & fantasy are lumped together in the same section. Bleh. I went there myself, recently, and was stunned at the depressingly minimal size of the section. I miss the sheer volume of options in the 1980s & '90s.

[@banhammer3904]

Science fiction is fantasy with laser weapons instead of swords. It's the same genre with slightly different tools.

[@The0megaStorm]

I've now got an image in my head of Tolkien doing a demolition derby in his bentley, so thanks for that!

[@hardworkingslacker7233]

😂

[@joncarroll2040]

The story of Tolkien's car reminds me of Mr Toad.😂😂😂

[@ryanpeck3377]

Because nowadays people usually only write letters for formal/business needs. We forget They would often be very "conversational" and informal. Especially Prior to cheap phone calls. Even local area calls used to be a, not insignificant, per minute charge. Writing letters was the way people would keep in touch, even if you lived fairly close.... point is sometimes we need to look at some of Tolkiens letters, not as some thought out essay, but more of as a "text message"

[@benjaminjane93]

"And then Mister Tumnus, the faun, invites Lucy into his home." "By jove, Clive, what's wrong with you!?" "What?" "And then what? Is he going to be inappropriate with her?" "No, he offers her tea." "Laced with a drug to knock her out?" "Well. Yes. But it's not what you think. He thought about turning her over-" "My God..." "Not like that! He would give her to the Ice Queen, who fears humans." "After having his way with her?" "No! What is wrong with you, Jack? Mister Tumnus is just a happy faun!" "Do you know what a faun is, Clive?" "Man with goat legs? They look funny." "..."

[@kaizen5023]

Tolkien would have had fired off a lot of spicy takes via Twitter... 😂

[@kaizen5023]

Lol I added this comment during the video about 30 seconds before you said similar 😂💯

[@CatBitchNami]

@@kaizen5023 Forgot to switch for your alt-account?

[@carimeslockdownedtree2654]

​@@CatBitchNami Nah the "you" is the video itself. I often talk to KZbinrs in second person as well.

[@doigt6590]

Really, I find a lot of things on youtube about Tolkien lacking any of the nuance found here, thank you for bringing back something that was lost!

[@joelincz8314]

Being a casual fan of Tolkien and having ignored videos recommended to me about Tolkien hating Dune, Narnia, etc. I really enjoyed this video trying to put his opinions into context. Thank you.

[@joelincz8314]

I wrote my comment 3/4 into the video and now I reached the end and I like it even more. I noticed about a year ago what is recommended to me is all sensational and hateful and I am trying to click on things that are more positive and informative. My thankfulness grows.

[@jonprudhomme7694]

Damn, a searing request for nuance and literacy. Nicely done, keep up the good work.

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

Thank you so much!

[@GairBear49]

Thank You, for such a well thought out and well reasoned lecture ,as it were, about J.R.R. Tolkien. I have been a fan since I first read The Hobbit and The Lord Of The Rings in the spring of 1970. And have read most of his other writings both literary and scholastic as well as writings about him. Yours is one the best explanations of a very complex man that was Tolkien that I have come across. Your comments about Social Media remind me of a quote from Pogo "We have met the enemy and he is us!"

[@avwillis5269]

7:44 it's worth noting that the protagonist Lewis chose for the space trilogy was a philologist that many believed was inspired by Tolkien.

[@banhammer3904]

Lewis wrote a letter to Tolkien saying Random was based on him. It's included in the book club edition of the Space Trilogy.

[@avwillis5269]

@@banhammer3904 that's good to know, I've heard conflicting reports on that.

[@banhammer3904]

@@avwillis5269 I got it wrong. It's a letter written by Tolkien to Stanley Unwin in Febraury & March 1938 and is included as a forward, "It is only by an odd accident that the hero is a philologist (one point in which he resembles me)..."

[@banhammer3904]

@@avwillis5269 I have the 75th Anniversary Edition from HarperCollins.

[@JonathanRossRogers]

Keep blasting us with nuance, Jess.

[@FLOABName]

Part of it is we love to put our favourite people and creators up on a pedestal. He was an amazing author and intriguing person. Yes. But he was still just a person. He was not an authority on all of literature. He had his opinions, but they shouldn’t be taken as any more valuable than anyone else’s. And it seems he most of all felt this way. Especially the ones he specified as his own personal preference and taste.

[@ansibarius4633]

Yes, and the guru-ization of writers that sometimes occurs when their works are popularized through the filter of contemporary movie adaptations can also lead to far more severe backlash if it is found out later that they happened to have the occasional opinion that doesn't sit well with modern audiences. People tend to create versions of other people after their own image and can act extremely disappointed if the real person 'fails' them in their expectations.

[@wuebboltc]

Botany, languages, and mythology. Those are what he liked.

[@BThings]

I think the quote about wanting to make things at 17:29 is a *really* helpful one to have for context. There is a difference in mindset and outlook between those who are just fans of things and those who like things but also desperately want to create their own things as well. This can mean that a maker's reactions to other people's work can be quite different. Some of it may be jealousy. Some of it can also be insecurity about whether your work is sufficiently unique while also being acceptable and desirable to audiences.

[@peanutgallery4]

That could be a part, but my main impression is that when you have a very particular artistic vision you can end up feeling like anything with resemblance to that vision, but with different choices, is making the WRONG choice. You will want to bend any similar story into a product of your mind at the time

[@RigelDeneb172]

Thank you! A most enjoyable, insightful, clarifying, and thought-provoking video essay--you know, your usual.

[@danlscan]

This was a good one. I spend a lot of time pondering this relatively new thing we call social media. I applaud all the new access to information that the internet brings but hate that it's served with so much divisiveness and dishonesty. I had to quit FB and I've never opened an account with any other platform. I adore YT but use it with caution. I enjoy your channel. Thanks!

[@glenndean6]

Insert "old man shouts at cloud" meme.

[@Rallarberg]

Seeing more and more of "KZbin Academia" pushing nuance lately. Gotta like it :)

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

I agree! I think it's very important for this space

[@sirpixel7945]

I also agree. Lot's of videos on youtube are just filled with negativity (especially in the comment section), so seeing academic videos with neutral objective tones is quite refreshing. These academic videos also generally have better comment sections since it's about something specific (like Tolkien here) that mostly only attract people who are interested in the subject: fostering a kind of harmonic discussion between people who are passionate about it. The length and subject of these types of videos also encourage more critical thinking, which translates to the comments.

[@Danbutch24]

I wonder what he would have thought of Terry Pratchett's Discworld? Probably my favourite series of books ever. I'd love to see you do a video on Discworld too Jess! (assuming you've read at least a few of them?) EDIT Oooh I see his name on your shelf!

[@LordJazzly]

I love that title. Yes, I have been on Tolkien youtube recently, and yes, I have been recommended approximately eleventy billion videos about why 'Tolkien hated large bodies of water' and so on

[@iainmc9859]

You have become the most 'nuanced' Tolkien channel on KZbin, intelligent, thoughtful and relevant. I'm grumpy, like Tolkien, about so many things ... but half an hour with the perfect woodland elf makes me have a little more faith in humanity.

[@danieluss8729]

I know this has anything to with the video, but, I love how you dress for most of the videos. It gives a really cozy vibe to the ambient. Almost as if I wasn't wasting my time in KZbin, but rather being inveted to a wonderful conversation in the garden of Jess of the Shire where we talk about about our wonderful friend John Ronald Reuel Tolkien or JRRT for the friends.

[@Omnifarious0]

11:38 - I am not a relatively young person, but I do know that at your age I did know the word "stultified". 🙂OTOH, I was an extremely voracious reader as a child. 18:50 - So, you're saying that he talked like he drove?

[@GeneralJerrard101]

I'm not a voracious reader, I'm just a good test taker, so I can make a really good guess at what stultified means based on the context. Even if I can't spell it according to spell check.

[@johnreddick7650]

@15:00 I've always found Tolkien's objection to Mr. Tumnus very odd; he *must* have known, one would have thought, that Lewis was drawing on the scene of Una and the fauns in Edmund Spenser's "Faerie Queene," Book I, Canto 6, wherein the fauns and satyrs are so awed by Una's innate goodness that they restrain their lustful nature and entertain her in the woods. Una is Spenser's symbol of truth and true religion, and the satyrs represent nature responding to her grace, which is not unlike Lucy's relations with Mr. Tumnus. Of course, Tolkien may have distinctly disliked Spenser's poem, which was an example of the Elizabethan tendency to play fast and loose with mythology and fantasy (the sort of thing he denounces in Shakespeare and Michael Drayton), and Una's character in it particularly, as she also represents the Protestant Church in that very anti-Roman Catholic poem. Spenser was one of Lewis's favorites, of course, a major focus of his 1935 book, "The Allegory of Love," but his militant Protestantism would surely have been particularly distasteful to Tolkien, and have (unconsciously?) fueled his rather nit-picky objection to the scene of Lucy's encounter with Mr. Tumnus.

[@benabaxter]

Here I thought his disdain for allegory was extended Pilgrim's Progress! Spencer makes a lot more sense.

[@GravesRWFiA]

My guess, his seeing himself as "Mr toad' is probably in line with his driving

[@abrahamcollier]

Discussion of Tolkien’s psychology turned into a (really good imho) rant on social media literacy-long live the 21st century 👏 Thanks as always, Jess!

[@greenflagracing7067]

Tolk.'s worldview was also molded by service as a junior officer in the trenches in WW1, where he participated in some of the worst fighting on the western front.

[@JR-ld2xx]

Thank you for doing this segment. I've been wondering what is truthful on this topic. I don't like reading about, "fake" statements, news etc. I do like how you broke it down and explained what was true, sort of. With memory and secondary sources can blur, and cut things out.

[@yurisei6732]

Tolkien was intelligent, academic, and creative. People like that tend to have very high standards.

[@samiam.402]

I like that most of your titles are questions and not statements! This helps make an interesting proposition without having a clickbait headline!

[@grbdevnull5611]

Excellent video on Tolkien and society in general. The last 10 minutes should probably be part of the unskippable online interactions tutorial (wait, are telling me that doesn't exist?).

[@LeoAngora]

OMG! I was thinking about this video, and even requested it (but when I did it it surely was already recorded). Thank you so much!

[@ethgray9350]

This is such an important video, when I see people talk about Tolkien in an almost religious way and like he’s some grumpy bitter Luddite it makes me so frustrated, like did they even understand the themes of lord of the rings, or that he wrote the hobbit out of love for his children. There’s so much quirkiness and imagination in his writing, obviously he wasn’t a backwards thinker. In fact he was very ahead of his times in many ways

[@stevemattero1471]

Wow! What a nuanced, scholarly video essay! You really bring a lot of nuance to the conversation!

[@gerbenhoutman9348]

15:33 I remember reading The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe at a young pre-teen age. I was already familiar with Satyrs. I recognized Mr. Tumnus, from reading mythology, immediately and wondered what to expect.

[@talithakoum3922]

Tumnus is a faun. Looks almost identical to a satyr, but smaller and cuter, and not prone to lechery or violence. Everyone knows the Greek myths these days, but few bother to read the Roman ones.

[@cha5]

I remember when I first read Arthur Machen’s story ‘The Great God Pan.’ I never considered satyrs to be cute and harmless after that.

[@gerbenhoutman9348]

@@talithakoum3922 That's what was said in the video. At about age 10 I asked about the difference and was told they were different names for the same creature. If we google the difference, there is a spectrum of beliefs, with this video being at one extreme and zero difference on the other

[@NickBergOne]

This was a really good and informative video. You also brought up very good points at the end. Thank you!

[@krankarvolund7771]

Maybe I'm coping because I love both LotR and Narnia, but to me "I hear you read Jack's story, this will certainly not do!" sounds more like a private joke than a real hatred ^^

[@talithakoum3922]

Agreed. I think Tolkien liked Narnia much better than he let on. He might have been jealous that his friend Jack could write good material with speed and ease, while he himself worked at a glacial pace, agonizing over every detail.

[@artsman412]

I think this video may shed some light on this subject. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aWLdYoyurrWieNksi=IClZQxDl8XOdgDpg

[@jjsnedgehammer]

Great video! I think folk should certainly take the biases of the authors into account as well as the time period that they are coming from. I see so much criticism of past authors, artists, & others that doesn’t take history into account. I remember reading in the late 80’s that some folk believed Tolkien was racist because he described his villains as dark skinned. I’m not convinced we can say that however.

[@leonmayne797]

The dislikes are from Tolkien.

[@Atulack]

hahaha

[@malcolmduncan]

I only just found your channel, but this is one of the best video essays I've heard in ages. Thank you for your clarity and honesty. I've very much enjoyed all I've seen of you, but especially this video.

[@mizukarate]

Read somewhere that JRR was upset that CS used music in Narnia's creation myth. Seems like JRR felt CS lifted his ideas from the LOTR myth.

[@fr.andygutierrez5356]

Jess, thank you so much for your balanced, thoughtful presentation, as always. One of the many reasons that I love your content is that you present the nuances of these topics so beautifully, so that we can come to love what he loved. again, thank you

[@plaidchuck]

He was just mad because Dune described the power plays that took place in English history better than any contemporary English historian

[@fredburley9512]

Thanks

[@johnweigel9761]

Jess isn't just a KZbin creator; she is a KZbin scholar.

[@jamescline4354]

I really enjoy your somewhat whimsical framing of multitudes of detailed information and illuminating insights. And your music background carries the narrative well. Good job, elf maid (hobbit maids don't strike me as engaging in poetic analysis as do you).

[@Nunez1110]

I think my favorite part of the background decoration you got up there is the portrait of the rat. I'd 100% have that on my wall too. lol

[@fyshnstyx5510]

Thanks for the video. I learned something more about CS that i did not know. I would love to know more about their personal relationship.

[@cesardiezv]

Tolkien after watching 'The Rings of Power': Well, maybe those things weren't as bad as I had thought.

[@justice8718]

He based the rings on Solomon’s stories because he believed they were from the fallen one.

[@johnjordan211]

You are stupid

[@ROMANTIKILLER2]

Great video and useful discussion, which highlights how Tolkien's opinions (but the same could be applied to other individuals and topics as well) were far more nuanced and connected to specific contexts than what the current algoirtm-driven dichotomies of the online discourse would like us to believe.

[@SirBoggins]

Tolkien obviously didn't "hate Dune," but simply DIDN'T LIKE it; he simply disagreed with the messaging involved, BUT he still recognised it as a proper piece of fiction. So in short: Disagreeing ≠ Disrespecting

[@SirBoggins]

On Tolkien's disagreement with Dune and its author, Frank Herbert; due to its clear criticism of religion and fundamentalism, this clashed with Tolkien's Catholic faith and so, he disliked that particular theme of Frank Herbert's novel.

[@timelordvictorious]

Well that does not surprise me he was a catholic .

[@LordVader1094]

Yeah people always make it where a figure either LOVES or HATES something. When no, Tolkien had the same breadth of opinion as anyone. You can simply dislike something without seething over it.

[@cpmf2112]

​@@LordVader1094the Internet has taught me differently 🤔😢😂

[@SirBoggins]

@@LordVader1094 Yes, but with all due respect, my lord, I think that applies to you and your son...

[@PharaohDom]

Great video. Loved your approach to this topic

[@decluesviews2740]

Excellent video! Holly Ordway is a colleague of mine. I’m glad you’ve read her book!

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

It's an incredibly well-researched and thorough book!

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

Oh neat! What's she like as a person?

[@michaelalderman6815]

Ordway’s book is wonderful! I would love to see a discussion between the two of you!

[@decluesviews2740]

@@sebastianevangelista4921 She’s very intelligent and well-spoken, of course. She’s confident and straightforward, but she also knows how to laugh and have casual conversation. She’s also a woman of profound faith. She actually wrote a book about her conversion experience: “Not God’s Type: An Atheist Academic Lays Down Her Arms.”

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

@@decluesviews2740 Neat

[@megbohrman2371]

Jess of the Shire! Thank you for your brave and insightful voice. You rock!

[@phillipsommer7973]

Can we all appreciate the mouse with the tophat on? Is this a famous mouse I should know about?

[@eruvandib.676]

As a tolkien fan for around 11 years now, I've enjoyed slowly but surely learning more about the man even as I enjoy his works, so this video was super interesting to me. I too have noticed that some people act like he hated everything, but you spelled out exactly what I've always thought, which is that you can't get a full picture of a human being just from viral soundbites. Your honesty and nuance here impressed me as well as teaching me some interesting facts about Tolkien that I didn't know before. You now have a new subscriber. :)

[@FennelTavern]

my first thought when I saw the thumbnail: "dude liked trees"

[@lawrencejackson6113]

Excellent episode!! Very nuanced discussion and as always well resourced!

[@duckdialectics8810]

A man of many tensions, he loved what Eric Eddison wrote, but disliked Eddison himself. I can picture Tolkien reading the Worm Ouroboros and begrudgingly saying "well played Eddison, I still don't like you though" xD

[@ravenmad9225]

So he could praise the work of someone he didn't like,and also criticize the work of his close friends. That shows he had a lot of integrity.

[@duckdialectics8810]

@@ravenmad9225 that he did, loads of

[@darrenleiberman6250]

I came here directly from a piece by 'Ink and Fantasy', which told the story of the first Swedish translation of both The Hobbit and The Lord Of The Rings. I do not know if Tolkein's objection to allegory developed before this, but you can certainly see how it focused his distaste for it. It is well worth a view. I found your video delightful and informative, and I have subscribed. Carry on the good work.

[@gregvaughntx]

Your handling of nuance is what keeps me coming back. Thank you. Keep doing that. You stand out.

[@bharveymusic]

Thanks, Jess! Great episode, as always. Nuance is sorely lacking in our world today - likely due to some of those biases you mentioned. Loved this balanced perspective on JRRT.

[@Helgatwb]

Trees. He liked trees. And smoking, and he REALLY loved his wife. He liked his kids.

[@SleightlyPersonal]

Very thorough and enlightening. Well done!

[@i_DONT_get_IT]

Those who appear to hate everything probably love MORE deeply than we do.

[@norwoodzomboy]

I just saw that you've reached 150, 000 subscribers - CONGRATULATIONS Jess!! 🎉

[@HandriKusnadi]

You know, to think about it again, it is kinda weird for a Satyr to invided a child to his home. You know when you know the actual story.

[@observationsfromthebunker9639]

It does sound strange from the folklore POV. But Lewis made Mr Tumnus a rustic scholar, similar to a village vicar. He's such a genteel person that one can't imagine him harming Lucy at all.

[@DevsQuillsandCartoons]

This was well-researched, well-written and has the most thoughtful conclusion I’ve ever heard ♥️ Wonderful video ⭐️👍🏼

[@Grimbanks]

"Now that you've subjected yourself to this utter trite - this rubbish, cleanse your mind with some quality prose written by your grandsire." - Tolkien to his granddaughter, probably.

[@nenyeo6090]

lmao 😂

[@minicle426]

"No thanks granpapa. I think I would rather read Winnie the Pooh"

[@GriefsFacade]

Been looking forward to a video like this. Thanks Jess, I hope you know your content really helps someone who struggles with their mental health.

[@kreolado5880]

I still can't believe Tolkien actually liked Mary Renaults The king must die and The Bull from the sea.

[@michaelnewsham1412]

Yes, especially since her fiction was heavily laced with homosexuality and Greek mythology. The only worshipper of Yahweh in her books is described as a crazed fanatic.

[@Rockstar-bq5fm]

Love you’re videos Jess. It’s always a nuanced and well meaning discussion and great listen

[@unclvinny]

I had the idea that Tolkien and Mervyn Peake were friends or at least mutual admirers, but apparently that's not the case. And their philosophies (Peake being anti-tradition) seem mismatched now that I think of it. Oh well!

[@ralphdamianiart]

Well researched and extremely well delivered content. I always come to watch a few minutes and end up watching the whole thing. Cheers!

[@trol68419]

Please don't dispel my perception that Tolkien was a hater. I find it weirdly charming.

[@ravenmad9225]

He wasn't a hater.

[@trol68419]

@@ravenmad9225 counterpoint: yeah huh