Die Bushing Performance Tested! - Precision Handloading with SAC

[@boydallen8059]

Looking at some of the comments, I don't think that some understand the design. It is like there are two IDs in the bushing. The larger one drops over the neck down to a transition to the smaller one where sizes begins. This gives a more positive alignment of the neck and the bushing on each other before sizing starts. The end of the neck makes contact with the bushing before the case body contacts the body part of the inside of the die.

[@GWGwilbo]

Would like to see the Sinclair bushings compared with the SAC. The Sinclair have a .003" taper and a nice radius for the case mouth to enter.

[@Jeff_Seely]

No doubt about this bushing delivering phenomenal runout consistency. I have been using the 289 bushing on my Alpha SP brass that is a very uniform 014" neck thickness and it is all that I've been using. I couldn't be happier. Thanks for the video! It is confirmation enough for me!

[@HernanMoragaMmHs]

Bro, your channel is so valuable. Have a wonderful day.

[@BoltActionReloading]

I appreciate that! You as well

[@rload4374]

I really want to see a comparison with the SAC bushing followed up my the mandrel. Also The runout on the outside of the case is not important, you want the inside of the case neck concentric.

[@kajhelin6822]

Mandrel sizing sounds smart but adds an extra step. Redding carbide expander balls make the most sense in theory. Since we now have a bushing that sizes cases straight. I would like to see will the Redding floating carbide expander keep the case concentric. Bushing the neck to .003" neck tension. Redding carbide expand it to 0.002" neck tension. I would test this myself but I don´t have a concentricity gauge. The process is exactly like with a standard sizing die with no extra steps.

[@JeffinTD]

Super excellent content. In the middle of the other video I thought I’d want to a side by side to see if there’s a difference in how they print, but that would be a lot of work… that you did.

[@horstb29]

Thank you for all the great advice on your channel.

[@francoismulder1043]

Very interesting 👌 channel helping me a lot. I am using LE Wilson f/s bussing dies. Keep it up. 👊👍🇿🇦

[@ewetho]

So your saying it actually works! Nice! Great video

[@steffen707-]

You need to test these bushings against a honed full length forster die to the same bushing width.

[@timothybarry508]

In the shooting world where time, costs and component availability are a very serious concerns , a 10-shot group would not generally considered small. In the statistical world, N = 10 is pretty small when there is significant random variation in the data. You may want to believe that a 10-shot SD of 5.6 fps is a real improvement over a 10-shot SD = 8.9 fps. However, the 90% confidence limits overlap: (6.49, 14.6) and (4.08, 9.21). Without more data, you cannot confidently conclude that 5.6 fps trumps 8.9 fps. In addition, the ES's are of no value since they are sample-based random variables and need to be characterized by some statistic (mean, median, 90th percentile, etc) generated over repeated N-sized samples.

[@sf2189]

I wonder if less runout = more consistent seating = more consistent pressure = smaller SD/ESs. You would think so. Funny that everyone that says concentricity doesnt matter - when you ask them to quantify - its always below .0015. Very cool. Have you played with GRTrace yet - much better interface than PTII.

[@rafenatho5406]

You keep neck sizing, it helps me keep winning.

[@desperado8605]

Rewatching some precision reloading stuff and think I'm gonna grab a whidden click die and sac bushing.

[@rustypwnismo7384]

Just got one of the SAC bushings in the same size as my Redding bushing. The SAC feels slippery compared to the Redding bushing. The SAC sizes .001 over what my Redding bushing sizes. I have to go .001 smaller. As for concentric. There is no difference between the SAC and Redding. Both roundouts between .0005 to .00015.

[@hbudsmalley6317]

I will find out soon enough. Two bushings and headspace and bullet comparators all on order.

[@benjaminnevins5211]

Great find!

[@areynolds35]

It looks like you do either FLS (no bushing) + Mandrel or FLS w/bushing, but I haven’t seen you do a FLS w/bushing and as a separate step, use a mandrel to expand the case to desired neck tension. Curious if you have done both bushing and separately mandrel and what your formula is for bushing to mandrel size.

[@Anon.Emouse]

I'd like to see the same test with an L E Wilson bushing. The Wilson bushings have been tapered like the SAC bushing for years.

[@boydallen8059]

I like Wilson bushings, all of mine are, but no they are not the same. I have discussed the design with SAC. As far as I am aware, his are unique.

[@ddn79]

Would like to see the same exact size bushing used.

[@MMBRM]

The fact that the bushings are different sizes could totally negate the results as they could be due to the increase of neck tension rather than the bushing itself.

[@ilikepiepls]

He did a previous video on why he used the different sized bushing. The redding bushing gave a neck diameter of .287 and the SAC gave a neck diameter of .287. I can not recall which exact video it was however.

[@mikeq7096]

just ordered 2 that I need a few hours ago to use in my LE Wilson dies

[@briansteele1378]

Has anyone used the SAC bushing in conjunction with a 21st century expanding mandrel? I love the whole idea of the SAC bushing being able to size the entire neck so you don't get a donut with your standard bushing dies. But I really like the idea of finishing with an expanding mandrel to "polish" the ID of the neck since this is what is actually providing tension on the bullet.

[@stevemiller6044]

How is the SAC bushing sizing the entire neck???? Look at the pictures----they only do a partial resize, about half the neck length. You may be right about the donut (which I have NEVER EVER had a problem with). The SAC would leave the donut in the unexpanded shoulder and the case would wear out before it (the donut) ever migrated to the actual sized part of the neck. Did you mean to say "don't get a donut as you do with your standard bushing dies"?????? You use one or the other, not both bushings????

[@ls2005019227]

Thanks for another excellent video! You mentioned measuring the bushings with pin gauges; are the SAC bushings tapered? If so, how much? Others have mentioned that Wilson bushings are tapered.... anyone know how much? Thanks again for the great video/info!

[@ls2005019227]

Update: After researching the Wilson bushings, Sinclair/Brownells states that they have a 0.003" taper, & that the listed size is for the middle of the bushing. Still wondering if the SAC bushings have a taper, & if it's the same or similar to Wilson's-

[@robertweinberg4449]

Thanks!

[@BoltActionReloading]

No Problem Robert. Thank you very Much!

[@narisnilubol86]

The SAC website says the bushing only works with SAC dies. I guess it works well for Redding dies.

[@BoltActionReloading]

They have 2 different bushing styles. One that is universal and a shoulder and neck bushing that is specific to b their dies.

[@Johnny-jr2lq]

These videos are really cool and when that day comes that I get a bolt gun I’m going to rewatch all of them. However I’m really wrapped up in autos like the AR10 and obviously the AR15 and what I’m gathering from these videos the equipment in these videos are better served for bolt guns. If I’m wrong in assuming this it would be greatly appreciated to be told otherwise.

[@ShastaBean]

Reasonable assumption given the name of the channel, but it's really just a matter of that's where he's testing and gathering his data. Generally speaking, yes it is better served in bolt-action. But it should mostly all apply to semis, too. But results wouldn't necessarily come out the same way with shorter barrels, and with what the gas is doing and other differences. Johnny's Reloading Bench does his comparison testing on ARs. Both channels are good data regardless of what platform...it's the variables they consider that make their info so valuable, not the exact numbers they come up with, since everyone is mostly going to always get different results - even if the exact same rifle.

[@Johnny-jr2lq]

@@ShastaBean I agree on all points made in your comment. And I watch all JRB videos as a matter of fact he just dropped his 308 Aero with the Krieger barrel and bolt video. And oh man was that a good video I have Ben waiting 2 years for that video to drop. Because I have basically the same rifle as him I followed the build he did on the video to a T. And I’m in fact getting extremely close results that he is getting. Minor minor differences in accuracy most likely due to him being a better shot then me. Also probably other slightly different variables such as powder lots being different, different primers and environmental differences and things of that nature. All in all though our rigs run very similar it’s extremely fun to run the same loads he dose to see how close we actually get. But my point in my comment wasn’t to talk trash. I’m really just trying to figure out if I really need some of the gear he has. Will the gear he has help me optimize my accuracy and honestly I don’t be it will in the semi auto. Due to its violent action if I were to go and purchased the gear he has I would be wasting my money right now. However when I finally do get the bolt gun I want and that in its self is quite the challenge. Then I’ll need to get some of this gear.

[@ShastaBean]

​@@Johnny-jr2lq cool that you have the same setup, and getting close to the same numbers. They should be pretty close, but spot on that there will always be slight differences given the fact production lines don't kick out the exact same product from lot to lot, along with the environment like altitude of where you are vs. him, temperatures, barometer, and even the direction you are shooting. At least you have it as close as might be possible. It would be interesting to see if he brought his gun to where you are, how different some numbers might vary. Curious to see someone test that, but haven't yet. Where I am, it can be 112 degrees one day, then on my next outing a few weeks later, can be in the 60s. I've seen where expensive barrel makers will admit that out of 10 barrels they make, 1 or 2 just may never be a good shooter - no matter what you do. And yes, there's always the x-factor; us as the shooter. As far as buying the equipment he shows, I feel the pain. Constantly asking myself if I need this, or need that. I have budget-level equipment. It is what it is, but I figure the info like his findings in this video are great info to at least know about. Like he said, he pretty much assumed they were all the same, but found out they aren't. I'm nowhere near the level where I'm tweaking what he is with bushings & mandrels and checking runout. I'm just popping in a primer, dumping in powder and slamming in a bullet to a CBTO that is an initial guess as best jump. So for me personally, it's still a bit of a waste of time & money. But if/when I do get to that point - the throat will be eroded on all of my guns to the point that all of my old info has to be redone. ugh - and start all over. To your original point, it would also be cool to see a creator do comparison videos on how much difference is seen with these runout tweaks when applied to a bolt vs. AR. My guess is we'd never even detect the gains from a bit of runout unless shooting thousands of rounds of data, and even still, is impossible to keep all other variables consistent. If nothing else, it does also contribute to other comments that are often just as useful as the video itself.

[@howardschwartz1462]

On the short action custom site it states that the sac bushings do not work with any other dies but you used a Redding die. Is it okay to use the sac bushings with others dies. Am I missing something? Thanks

[@BoltActionReloading]

@howardschwartz1462 there are 2 style of bb bushings. One is neck shoulder and one is just the neck. The neck shoulder bushing are for their dies. The ones that work in other dies are called the SAC neck sizing bushings.

[@FC-ef9dz]

I got one of these and it didn't work on the Hornady match dies. It left ridges around the neck of the brass. The Hornady bushings do not. Brass and die are always clean so that wasn't the issue. I definitely wanted them to work.

[@davecollins6113]

What was the ridge location? Wondering if it was like he showed where he didn't size the whole neck, or was it a mark on the shoulder? Just trying to visualize it and define what happened. Is there a transition on the bushing from the tapered entrance to the straight part that is creating it on the neck?

[@ElvanGoode]

I recently purchase a Sinclair Concentricity Gauge and discovered that I had some massive run out (.005-.015) in my 300 PRC brass (Lapua and Hornady) from using my Lee press and Lee resizing FL sizing die. I watched a bunch of videos and read articles and ordered a Mec press and the RCBS Matchmaster Dies (FL bushing sizer and micrometer seater) along with several RCBS bushings to play with. I used every "pro" tip to set the sizing die up correctly (including not using the expander ball on the decapping rod) and sized some of the brass that had been sized in the Lee dies. I was optimistic that this set up would at least improve concentricity but it didn't change anything...not even a few thousandths. How is that possible? Do I need to fire the brass and re-prep it to get optimal results from the new die/bushing set up? Are the RCBS standard bushings no good? Would the SAC bushings make a difference? Am I doing something else wrong? Thanks

[@wils0124]

Are the Whidden bushings not machined in the same manner as SAC bushings? Looks like it also has a gradual/guided diameter before narrowing after the case mouth has entered the bushing.

[@billcarlson852]

What neck bushing do you use for: 7mm rem mag 300 win mag Thanks, bill

[@BoltActionReloading]

Hi Bill, I plan on doing some comparisons in other calibers. I don't own a 7mm at the moment so I probably can't be much help there. I plan to mimic this format that I did in 223 unless someone can make sore suggestions on what I can do better. Maybe check this out and give me some feedback? kzbin.info/www/bejne/faPYgaWbnqmKiac

[@torreyintahoe]

I'm using the .310 for 7mm and nobler brass. I'm getting 0.0015" neck tension. Probably going to order a 309 and test it out.

[@benjo642]

Hey redding suggest to get the correct bushing,you minus 1 tho from a loaded rounds case neck.is this the same for SAC bushings

[@jesusisalive3227]

Does anyone make a bushing that sizes the entire neck? I recently chucked up a shell holder in my lathe and cut it down some so I could get more of my neck into my lee collet die. It seems to work very well.

[@jeffnichols5176]

Have you done any comparisons between the SAC and the Whidden bushings?

[@BoltActionReloading]

I do not have any of the Whidden bushings to test.

[@chuckfinley3152]

Did you ever test the lee collet die?

[@matthiusix]

I would like to see a comparison, too.

[@txmarine7557]

Me too, please do it. I'm consistently getting around or just below 10 sd & es using only a Redding body die and then Lee collet die followed up with a Redding seater die. Don't forget your runout test in this video is on the outside of the neck but using a bushing your inconsistencies will be inside. Using a Lee collet die you'll have better concentricity inside the neck with imperfections on the outside. That's my theory anyways.

[@Jdwg1972]

@@txmarine7557 always heard you have to turn case necks to achieve true concentricity when neck sizing only. Do you think the Lee dies are working for you because it’s squeezing the case against a mandrel, providing the interior concentricity?

[@michaelsteakley3898]

Could you please comment on neck collet sizing dies? Do you have any experience with these? Thanks

[@BoltActionReloading]

Hi Mike, what exactly would you like to know? I have a whole playlist where I research all the different methods including collet dies. kzbin.info/aero/PLXl7rMHW73NOphigW13PyC7dnxhW7_P8A

[@mdsun1]

So, do you recommend using a bushing .001 smaller than what you would normally use?

[@BoltActionReloading]

I am currently planning a small series of choosing appropriate bushings for your caliber. I have sized all the brass now to start with 223 but plan on doing a 6mm, 6.5, 308, and 338 if they are popular enough. Loaded round minus .002 or .003 is a good place to start.

[@thompsonjerry3412]

Machining accuracy, coating, tapered hole, what is it?

[@ironDsteele]

All of those things although the coating is the least important part.

[@iMakos101]

Why are you not mandreling after sizing with a bushing? Am I doing it wrong?

[@BoltActionReloading]

Hi Drew. I am certainly not saying you are doing it wrong but there are only so many combinations you can test in 1 video. If your performance is what you need your doing it right! I have some more upcoming content where I use mandrels but for this specifically I did not want to loose any more neck tension. We will be testing this in future vids stay tuned!

[@iMakos101]

@@BoltActionReloading perfect man. I can't trim my brass if I don't mandrel. So I want to see what your tests say before I get a sac bushing. I want to see if run out stays the same after the sac then a mandrel. So please test Redding with a mandrel vs sac bushing with a mandrel. Keep up the good work. Love the channel.

[@cvhoway]

Did you run the SAC bushing in your Redding die or the SAC die?

[@BoltActionReloading]

These were ran in the Redding die. The bushings for the current version of SAC dies are different.

[@cvhoway]

@@BoltActionReloading okay, that’s what I was thinking. Do you know if they make the ones you reviewed anymore? I’m not able to find them on their site.

[@BoltActionReloading]

They do, but they are also sold by MidwayUSA now, too.

[@nathanielgray4235]

do you have experience with hbn coated bullets and if its worth a consider

[@BoltActionReloading]

I have used some of the coated 115 DTACs in 6mm creedmoor and they worked well but I wouldn't go through the trouble of coating anything myself.

[@babayoga3672]

I'm under the impression that sizing necks more than 1 thousandth below diameter is pointless and just makes the bullet your interior neck sizer. So you go .003 under caliber neck size you will be gouging bullets but only getting 1 thousandth tension

[@BoltActionReloading]

This is very dependent on if the bras is annealed. I am working on getting more seating force examples on my amp press to see how this is affected.

[@mckimmym]

Still can’t get SAC bushings lol

[@BoltActionReloading]

I believe they have a system to sign up when they come back in stock. They seem like they are pretty popular.

[@mckimmym]

@@BoltActionReloading I’ve just gotten a 21st century expander mandrel based on your data. Maybe SAC bushing isn’t necessary in combination with expander mandrel?

[@stevepoetzl986]

I need help as I am new to bushing dies: Do I need to use expander mandrels with a neck bushing die? If so - how much smaller should the mandrel be than the bullet diameter?

[@BoltActionReloading]

Hi Steve it depends what you want to do. Some folks will size the neck for .003" and then run a expander .002" under projectile diameter.

[@stevepoetzl986]

@@BoltActionReloading do I have to turn the necks to use a bushing die effectively? I do not turn necks and the Redding catalogue recommends that if you do not turn necks then use an expander after the bushing die. Do you agree?

[@BoltActionReloading]

Hi Steve, by any chance have you checked out this video? This is kind of a huge deep dive on sizing and you may be able to see how one method changes compared to another. kzbin.info/www/bejne/mGHMmIajeLKHnNk

[@brandonrenner9597]

Been using hormady .290 but thinking about get a sac bushing. Still not decided on size. Loaded rounds are .293