98-02 dodge diesel, 24 valve cummins hot start issue. not vp44 failure

This video is just a quick update on a truck that I worked on that seemed to have an issue I haven't ran into before. now that these trucks are getting older the issues like this may become more common due to a lot of diesel owners modifying their trucks. this video shows how to test if your truck is having a hard hot start for this reason and shows a diagram on how to wire in a fix. hopefully this helps some people. thanks for watching.

[@datboifixit1995]

Honesty I didn't think this was gonna work, I had a starting issue with the original block mounted lift pump, put in a Titanium Fass 100, and it would eventually start and run on a hot wired VP44, but wouldn't start again. I was CONVINCED it was the VP44 gone bad, gave this video a watch and rewired my fuselink into my radio fuse and it fires up! THANK YOU!

[@Dirtfloorfab]

Glad to hear it man

[@Moose400ex]

I’ve heard of this before. I don’t have the issue with mine, I’ve got a ‘02 24v HO 6 speed and a fass 165 on a tank bottom mounted sump. Some times every once in awhile I’ll get a long crank when cold and been sitting. sometimes not. Some times it fired right up. All things caused by is the fass fuel pump is causing an issue with the ‘pintle’ I guess it’s called inside the vp44, the fuel pressure pushing against it when it’s priming while cranking is causing the hard start, the fix is simply to make your fass not ‘prine while cranking’ or run while cranking, but to only run after cranking has stopped and the motor is running, there’s enough fuel in the lines and in the pump for it to run for a few seconds until cranking has stopped. There’s several circuits you can wire the relay into that isn’t powered while cranking. Or do like this is saying and add a relay on a relay so it doesn’t power until cranking has stopped. Or put the pump on a hard toggle that’s hidden and it can also act as an anti teft device! Real simple fix. Easy issue to solve. Maybe I’ll do mine, I’ll have to look at how it’s wired, I’m not even sure if it primes or runs while cranking or not I’ll have to liesten to it and see. I wanna p pump mine anyways. I want all mechanical, no wires, nuke proof. I even want the pull cable fuel kill. No electronic fuel shut off solenoid to go bad or wire in. Nuke proof diesel! There was one guy I saw his Cummins 12v swapped square body suburban on u tube and he did the pull cable fuel kill and also had his starter plumbed into an air tank and could spin it with an air tank, so if the starter went out from an emp he could still start the diesel engine! Or pop start it being a manual trans.

[@agp7073]

Finally after several years of researching this issue on my 99’ there’s an answer to my issue. Starts great when cold but hard starts in the summer time. I’ll try your fix. Thanks

[@Dirtfloorfab]

No prob

[@nategreenfield1349]

Did this fix your issue?

[@wendyabbott8947]

Thank you. I was wondering what the extra relay under my hood was all about. Didn’t realize that there was a factory recall, thought someone was in there messing around. What a stupid idea to put the pump in the tank.

[@Dirtfloorfab]

The Carter pumps mounted on the side of the block we're costing them a ton of money in injection pumps I'm sure. From my experience the Carter's will fail with little noticeable ailments while running which heats up the fuel in the VP and eventually will kill it. The in tank pump's seem to be fairly noticeable when they fail, which will alert the driver something is wrong. Or be close to undrivable. Either way a lift pump is cheaper then doing lift and VP pump

[@tyfisher6102]

Just to make sure I get this right, 87a is wired to the power wire (red) on the recall relay and 30 is ran to the signal wire (yellow) which on the recall relay as well?

[@Moose400ex]

I see that edge ez chip there. That’s your first problem, those edge timers were junk. The secound problems is your still running the stock OE filter housing and prolly the junk Carter lift pump. Should install as fass with a tank mounted bottom sump. No draw straw crap. Remove all that stock oe fuel filter garbage and lines and create some room and clean that engine bay up. You’ll need a block off plate for the mech fuel lift pump, as the 24v blocks are the same as the 12v blocks and still had the hole for the mech pump. Any auto parts store has a Mr gasket part number #1516 for a chrome block off plate with gasket. Same block off plate as a big block Chevy! Anything less than 10 psi and you’re slowly cooking the vp44. Anything less than 5 psi and immediate damage occurs. A fass will supply a constant 15-16 psi ast all rpm’s, chipped, bigger injector and turned up how ever high. A vp44 needs constant cool Clean diesel fuel to cool them. That’s the vp44’s biggest downfall, other than that they are a decent pump. I’m still going to p pump swap my ‘02 24v HO 6 speed one of these days. A VE rotary pump swap may even valve an option to as p 7100 pumps are getting harder and harder to find. People are wanting $1000+ for core pumps. And good cores are getting harder and harder to find.

[@nategreenfield1349]

This is my exact problem after putting a fass pump in my truck. Never did this before with the stock lift pump. I was thinking vp44 because old lift pump was not doing well.

[@somejerk707]

I've been unplugging my fass to start during summer, then plug back after starting.

[@Dmowery5036]

Mines having issues now. No engine light but has a p1693 on the pcu side. Truck runs good but driving down the road it’ll shut off like you turned the key off but it come right back on. Hooked a diagnostic reader up to it but it says no codes on the pcu. Any idea? I’m totally lost

[@canyonforkash731]

Just installed the fleece powerflo in tank with stock filter delete and am now running into hot starting issues but once the truck is on it runs flawlessly. This kinda seems what is happening to my truck is maybe the pump is pushing out too high of fuel pressure on startup. I don’t have a fuel pressure gauge or tool to monitor it so I can’t be sure

[@jarredhall9555]

Ive had this issue. 2000 24 valve 5.9 etc. After watching your video my resolve was to tap fass cab wire into the radio fuse relay. When you key the truck on now its at 17gph when you turn the motor over the pressure drops down to potentially 0 but truck fires around 8.

[@Dirtfloorfab]

Yeah alot of guys use the radio or power window circuits for voltage because the power shuts off while crankin👍

[@rasfsa]

I have a raptor and is doing this. Great info. Thanks

[@Mikheno]

What kind of boost pump was installed that developed 20 psi??? The in tank pumps from Dodge make 7 to 10 psi on a good day and some run as low as 2 or 3 psi. Also if the pump was wired properly to the ECM it would have been powered with a pulse width modulation at start up (to keep the pressure low) and full power (12 volts) while running. Something isn't right with this setup. You seemed to have fixed it with your relay but it looks to me like it was wired hot (full 12 volts) instead of coming off the ECM. Nothing should run with just the key "on" . You should have to at least bump the starter to get the boost pump to run.

[@pbmachines972]

I’m a big fan of those Cummings Dodge trucks

[@duttydiesel8303]

🤦

[@billjohnson6168]

I like those cummings dieselers also. Did you know Ford owned cummings?

[@firstcreekbaptistchurch4436]

1999 2500 Cummins. Hit bump, truck shut off. Restart after cool. Runs till 150 degrees shuts off. Scanner shows no communication when warm, connects fine when cold ?

[@duttydiesel8303]

@Dirtfloorfab - I'm assuming you've been down this road before... I just finished removing the factory lift pump, I have installed a new one... I was surprised that my truck did not get hit with the recall, it was still mounted on the side of the block... The reason I changed it it was running low fuel pressure... I would not say insanely low by any means, but low enough for concern.. roughly 7-11psi if memory serves correct. When you say that these "Carter" pumps were costing Dodge and Cummins a pile of money on injection pumps... what was the lift pump doing to the injection pump?? Was it overheating the electronics, resulting in electrical failure? Was it overheating the pump itself, resulting in electrical failure? Was it overheating the pump itself, resulting in internal injection pump failure? In my opinion, I haven't had the truck very long.. it feels awful doggish, and I am getting absolutely no black smoke.. regardless of what I do... I drive a standard, so I feel like it should puff a little bit when I am low in a gear and heavy on the accelerator... Sorry for my comment being so lengthy, just trying to give you as many background details as I reasonably can. 😊

[@Dirtfloorfab]

The Carter vein pumps that mount on the side of the block seem to fail in a way that will still let the engine run. Which eventually will burn the VP up due to it having to draw it's own fuel thru the dead lift pump. Which will cause the board on top to burn out or the cylinders of the pump to score. On the in tank pumps it is very noticeable when the lp goes down sometimes where it won't run. Dodge didn't do the recall until some years after they were selling common rails iirc. So some got missed. I assume you changed your fuel filter. Depending on year tho a stock truck won't smoke much if at all. The factory tuning on the 99 and 00 trucks make it like your driving a school bus. You want around 15 psi of lift pressure. They say 25 will push the front seal out and 10 will start to overheat your pump. I have seen trucks with the Carter pump still on the block but have an in tank pump running it thru the old Carter. Which I'm sure is not good for it but at the time it wasn't in for a running issue just an oil change

[@duttydiesel8303]

@@Dirtfloorfab - 01... And I have been told that before it shouldn't smoke much.... I am new to owning a 24v, but my 12v smoked pretty good.

[@duttydiesel8303]

@@Dirtfloorfab - fuel filter was #1 on list as soon as I picked truck up.. although I was tempted to put the old one back in, it couldn't have been changed long before I bought it. ( Ofc changed it anyways)

[@mattmaycroft]

I just got my 99 Dodge I drove it home and now it will not start when it's hot. I think this will help.

[@alldeisel2208]

So all u did is put a relay on a relay? I recently had a airdog 2 4g installed (2001 dodge ram 2500) and I'm having the hot hard start on mine or the same problem as you described on the video

[@jc_from_tx9229]

Mine starts fine with my raptor pump set at 17 psi, at key on it runs for a few seconds and builds to 17 then slowly drops to zero but it starts fine if i turn it over at 17. Must be some variation in the different pumps, mine is a 16x in freightliner chassis on motorhome, i had a different vp that started fine at 20psi, slso a 16x

[@AntonioRamirez-tb7wj]

Thank you this was helpful 🙏🏼🙏🏼

[@genehart261]

All good info. 24 valve gets a bad rap, if you understand and take care of its issues vp44 will give you long and reliable service.

[@OnefastAZfarmtruck]

I actually like the 24 valve better than the 12 valve. Keep your VP44 fueled and you won’t have problems

[@genehart261]

@@OnefastAZfarmtruck FASS system and Stanadyne additive just to be safe.

[@jeremymyers5643]

You guys keep telling yourself that. I like a vp44 when it runs, damn good under 500hp setup.but they are plagued with numerous issues.

[@jacobhartman915]

Thanks for the video man this saved my ass

[@electricamir248]

Great idea. What should the pressure be after engine shutdown?

[@Dirtfloorfab]

There's usually a few psi when you shut down but the vp44 will pull it down once it cranks

[@cbigham]

It is a software issue. I found this out after spending $4000 to replace the vp44 pump. There is a dodge service bulletin out on this .,

[@starsstripesandotv]

Cbigham, can you Please provide a link or more info on the service builiten?

[@davekana8388]

My first Dodge was a 76 D100 with a 225 slant 6. Someone converted the 3 on the tree to a floor shift. I put a Cherry Bomb muffler on it. Great daily driver while I kept my 86 Dodge Shelby Charger in the garage.

[@woolyhighlander7280]

Why would they Screw up perfection ? I bought a 1990 W350 4x4 c/w Cummins totally reliable for 21 years straight.

[@dc440-4]

I think they realized they screwed up by making trucks that would last forever. I have a 98 12 valve 4x4 manual trans and a 99 24 valve 2wd manual that I've been driving since I was 27 years old,now I'm 42 and it still runs great. 401,000 miles. I promise I would not trade these for a new one. I have buddy's with new ones that break down very often

[@andrewchan4434]

Very interesting info. I recently installed a FASS 165 system and really didn't run into any issues starting the truck till a day ago. I've never heard of an issue with starting due to too much fuel pressure so now I'm curious, is there a check engine light associated with your issue? I had a "P1689" which states that I had an issue with the ECM not communicating with the injection pump (VP44). One of the things I've read online was to check the fuel pump relay and when I swapped it out, the truck fired right up but I'm still not totally convinced that it was the relay. Other info. I found online is a bad ground from the ECM, I have yet to mess with that but would really be interested to see if your issues had a check engine light as well. Thanks in advance.

[@Dirtfloorfab]

Honestly can't remember for certain but I do remember having a code don't remember which one it was. It was a very odd symptom it was intermittently long cranking and it boiled down to when the grid heater would go thru it's whole cycle it would start right up because the pump would kick off before the grid would. But if it was semi warm out it would long crank or fail to start.(because the owner wasn't waiting for the grid heater)

[@andrewchan9925]

@@Dirtfloorfab ok thank you.

[@davidgillman-gl4ju]

How do I go about getting that wiring diagram with a delayed relay

[@Dirtfloorfab]

It's just a normal nc 5 pin relay. Pause the video

[@rsnell5031]

Just curious why would the hard starts happen only after the engine is warm if it was caused by to much lift pump pressure? Thanks and great video

[@Dirtfloorfab]

It's worth a try to test lift pressure with a gauge. No hot start is usually a bad pump and theres a cold water test to confirm that but basically fuel has less viscosity when warm so it fails to start when the inj pump is weak

[@todprich5241]

See mine is on the block but im putting a fass drp on the truck moving it closer to the tank my truck is getting a new vp44 because it would start cold but when she got to temp it wouldnt start the day before it went to the shop it got to where it wouldnt start at all but it would only do it if i would let it set for 10 to 20 minutes it wouldnt start but if i shut it off and fire it right back up it would start easy

[@GarageTimeAutoResto]

Cool channel subscribed. Those engines run for ever.

[@Dirtfloorfab]

Thank you, I throw in a diesel video every once in a while hopefully get to building my 4bt in 2019

[@duttydiesel8303]

@@Dirtfloorfab - what's 2019 looking like... Going to have time for this 4bt soon?? Lol, that comment caught my attention for sure. 😆

[@captncully5217]

I've heard of guys running their lift pump through the power window relay...if that's true then that relay must cut out during start also? The relay that you used is called a "cut out relay"?

[@Dirtfloorfab]

You can use any relay 4 or 5 pin Cut your pump power wire one side to 30 other to pin 87à(as long as it's an 87a normally closed) Good ground to 86, run your desired start signal wire to 85

[@captncully5217]

Thanx man....that explains it well!

[@azershotgun]

I just experienced the same thing bought a truck that had a lot work done to it and no one could figure out why it took lots of cranking it when hot to start, it was given up on so I picked it up for cheap. I ran a wire from the power window realy to the fule pump in tank and it starts like a dream now. Power is cut from the windows during cranking unlike the in tank pump it's a quick and easy place to tap into. I just turn the key to the the run position wait a few seconds till I see fule pressure then crank it the pressure drops for a second when cranking starts right up and picks up pressure once running. Vp 44s are very picky about fule pressure during cranking

[@Dirtfloorfab]

Yeah took a little research but it's really not that bad maybe 20$ in parts customer of this truck was ecstatic that I only charged him 75$ him thinking but was a bad vp44

[@azershotgun]

@@Dirtfloorfab yeah they threw a vp44 and a bunch of other $$$ parts at this truck including a new head for it then gave up on it and let it sit I came across it and had a pretty good idea of what was going on with the fuel pump, made a offer to buy it and it's been my daily for the past 6 months reliable as can be

[@alanlonginosmoreno5718]

@@Dirtfloorfab im having this same issue! Just bought my 1999 cummins and previous owner was dishonest! Can you fix my truck!?!

[@Dirtfloorfab]

@@alanlonginosmoreno5718 what issue are you having? Intermittent no start/long crank?

[@alanlonginosmoreno5718]

@@Dirtfloorfab my truck starts right up when cold. As soon as I crank it turns on. When warm/hot I crank and it takes long for it to turn on. Sometimes I have to crank it a couple of times bu the 4th time.it turns on. And just yesterday it left me at a costco parking lot. I had to go back voulle hours later. Let it cool and it turned right up.

[@joseluismenaharding5503]

Hola si pudieran repetirlo en ESPAÑOL, ya que tengo problemas con el encendido en frío y caliente, me da estar pero NO ENCIENDE SOLO EMPUJADA , EN BAJADA O REMOLCADAS. QUE PODRÁ SER ?

[@perroloco3903]

That happens to me on fass ride pump to much pressure and I was thinking 30psi great is going to work better but not thank you

[@isa5537]

Can you answer questions, on 2500 cummins diesel 2003. It say for a whole due to having to change the steering case. The when it got fixed it wouldnt start. I actually bought walmart batteries last year. My husband doesnt think that's it. We changed the starter severalmmonths ago. It cranks but wint start. It actually started a couple times also. I got the computer chips changed a fee years ago. Could it be that again? My husband had me buy a new I take grid heater, and it wasnt that, or the other relay plugs.

[@Dirtfloorfab]

03 is common rail engine most generally a no cold start is a sign of low rail pressure. There's a couple ways to verify this 1 is to try to recreate a no start. Once it doesn't start either hook truck up to battery charger or give it a small huff of ether. (Not alot and make sure your not cycling the grid heater) If either of these make it start that's the first sign that it's rail pressure related. The easier way to diagnose this is to use a scanner and read rail pressure when cranking. If it doesn't reason 5000psi if I remember correctly it won't start. Which comes to the underlying issue. This is usually a sign of Injectors returning to much fuel, or to high of return rate. Meaning it's needing new injectors and crossover tubes. Common rail injector life is any where from 100k-170k miles depending on how the trucks been maintained

[@isa5537]

@@Dirtfloorfab he was hoping that's not it. So does he take off new grid heater while he does this?

[@Dirtfloorfab]

@@isa5537 if he uses a battery charger to check it just leave it together. And just put it on jump. If you have to use ether leave the key in the run position for a min or so so you know the grid is cooled down. Ultimately it'll have to be confirmed with a scanner but those 2 ways are just an at home check you can do. Basically the extra rpm from either the charger or a bump of ether raises rail pressure enough to fire up

[@isa5537]

@@Dirtfloorfab thank you, I give update later. He hasnt checked it yet

[@happydays454]

Got a 04 with this relay and it disconnected bandit still ran for like 2 days then I figured it disconnected and filled up fuel canister crazy

[@codyc6483]

Okay I have a 2001 24v Cummins 4x4 I just bought a brand new vp44 and a fass 165, so the only way it will start is if I Hotwire the injection pump... it will start right up everytime with the injection pump hotwired

[@Dirtfloorfab]

Not that I'll be able to diagnose this over text but what exactly do you mean by hotwired,? Do you mean direct power from battery to ignition start pin on pump?

[@codyc6483]

@@Dirtfloorfab yes, you unplug the vp44 and connect it right to the battery

[@Dirtfloorfab]

@@codyc6483 seems like a harness issue to me🤷

[@codyc6483]

@@Dirtfloorfab I have put a new one on as well... also a new ecm

[@codyc6483]

I know it is hard without seeing it!!

[@kenuber4766]

Go get the key....Jesus Christ. Lamo!!!

[@29auto30]

Could you just not run a toggle switch to shut the pump off, and then once it fires up turn the pump back on?

[@Dirtfloorfab]

If you wanted to do that every time you started the truck rather then have a relay do it for you. More power to you

[@29auto30]

Ok thanks.

[@jameshester3831]

Just read gym hesters comment

[@evanfugle7598]

Why not the oil pressure sensor? I have afew straight wired key on fass running

[@Dirtfloorfab]

It would work either way with a ops you would have to wire it normally open and then close it. Easier on relays to just have the starter trigger interrupt. Then relay spends most of it's running life in normally closed (either way would work and they make normally open relays as well)

[@Dirtfloorfab]

Also I make a habit of trying not to alter engine harness. Starter harness is its own circuit

[@trevoraustin9344]

So I don’t have the other relay to the lift pump so what would I wire to the 87a spot to instead of the relay

[@Dirtfloorfab]

Find the power wire to your pump and cut it run one side to 30 the other to your normally closed pin (87)

[@trevoraustin9344]

So don’t use 87a then

[@Dirtfloorfab]

@@trevoraustin9344 the point of the relay is to take away power from the lift pump while it cranks. Theoretically using the NC circuit will be more reliable then it is to turn the relay on and have it energized while you drive. So how I ran it from memory is 85 to starter signal, 86 to ground 30 to fuse power for lift pump 87 to fuel pump. That way when you crank there's no power to lift pump. The 87à or normally open circuit has no wiring to it(reference your relay as they make different normally closed circuit relays)

[@trevoraustin9344]

Dirtfloorfab ok I just have to get taped into the lift pump fuse then

[@jameshester3831]

had mine on a toggle switch had no issues with starting went to direct power and then after that it was hard start after warm

[@alwaysbroketv]

What should I do if I have a fass

[@Dirtfloorfab]

Are you having starting issues

[@jessem9567]

I am having a starting issue with my fass

[@Dirtfloorfab]

@@jessem9567 do you have the pump priming while cranking

[@mathewsaxton7931]

Was it low on fuel ? Lol

[@Dirtfloorfab]

Was wondering when you'd figure out how to comment 😏 lol full tank full, drag up