They Framed The Pilot For The Disaster (BEA Flight 609/Munich Air Disaster) DISASTER BREAKDOWN

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Twitter: Chloe_HowieCB
Music/Personal Channel: kzbin.info/door/OwQGtbF_x7ODL1U_A61IQg
Twitch: www.twitch.tv/chloe_canaria
This Photograph was taken in 1958, on a cold day in Munich, Germany. This is a photograph taken before disaster as the plane subjected in this image, would crash later after it was taken. The lives of 23 people lost along with the plane. So what happened?
The Munich Air Disaster is known in part for the loss of numerous notable members of the Manchester United Football Team. For fans of the football club and those who call Manchester home, the Disaster is well known. The accident involved a modern plane for its day, operated by a prestigious operator and flown by two very well respected pilots. So one may have many questions about this accident. So let’s go through the timeline of events that day and see if we can uncover what happened on British European Airways Flight 609.
Sources:
www.baesystems.com/en-uk/heritage/airspeed-ambassador
aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19550408-0
www.bbc.co.uk/manchester/content/articles/2008/01/17/060208_munich_timeline_feature.shtml
konbriefing.com/mad/approach-charts/de-germany/munich-riem-airport.html
www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/english-soccer/bravery-and-goodness-harry-gregg-the-reluctant-hero-of-munich-1.3378025
www.fourfourtwo.com/features/remembering-harry-gregg-manchester-united-legend-and-reluctant-hero-munich-air-disaster-man-utd
hansard.parliament.uk/commons/1959-05-13/debates/a6b2def7-9fa3-4b61-8c8f-75963a04b728/CaptainThain

[@DisasterBreakdown]

If you found this video to be interesting, be sure to subscribe as there is a new video every Saturday. This video also went out to my Patrons on Patreon 48 hours before going out publicly. Consider joining here from £1 per month: www.patreon.com/DisasterBreakdown Twitter: twitter.com/Chloe_HowieCB

[@PEPcessna]

what scenery did you use for riem?

[@Ben-ks5bm]

Good video. Your a good man

[@michellamoureuxm]

As a Canadian the second I heard slush my stomach dropped. That shit is worse than ice and snow, because it's half both, half water. Heavier than snow and ice, just as slippery, oh and soaking wet so if you fall you're frozen. It's horrid to drive on, and even causes trucks to lose control.

[@havanadaurcy1321]

My father's old instructor once said always check the runway

[@shaka7594]

​@@havanadaurcy1321That was the airports main responsibility, after 2 attempts even more so..

[@profd65]

@@shaka7594 After two aborted takeoff attempts, the pilot should have parked the f*cking plane and got it fixed, especially given the less than ideal conditions. Also, the pilot had to have known there was slush at the end of the runway: during his takeoff attempts, he must have seen it up ahead and he when he was decelerating he probably coasted through it.

[@thomaspiedmont]

The accident and the aftermath took a serious toll on Captain Thain. He died young, at 52 if I remember correctly. Another victim this crash claimed. RIP all the victims, including Captain Thain 🙏🏼

[@robertmcghintheorca49]

He was 54, according to his daughter, Sebuda in an interview for a 2011 documentary on the accident. But yes, I admire him for his determination and integrity that he demonstrated over those 11 hellish years to clear his name. It's devastating that he went through it, but he managed to prove his case. To paraphrase a line from a book on the disaster, the difference between the possible and the impossible is merely a measure of a man's determination.

[@thomaspiedmont]

@@robertmcghintheorca49 Thanks for the correction 👍🏼. And indeed, his legacy is that no matter if you have the world against you, if you think you're right, fight against all and prove your point

[@lufasumafalu5069]

52 is too old for pilot

[@ItsJustLisa]

@@lufasumafalu5069, they said he never flew again. He was 37 and likely a decorated pilot from his service in WW2. He was 47 or just turned 48 when he was cleared.

[@expansionone]

they investigate until it fits their narrative...

[@Toucanbird]

I feel bad for Captain James Thain because the German investigation was incredibly short-sighted and lackluster. If a plane goes skidding off the end of a runway, how do you NOT consider that the condition of the runway didn’t in the very least play a contributing factor? If I had to pose a theory, my guess would be the German government and Munich airport didn’t want to accept responsibility for the poor management of the airport’s runway, so they used a photo to blame Captain Thain for it. However, I feel bad because it sure seems like Captain Thain went through a decade of hell to clear his name and in the end, no one accepted responsibility for the disaster. I’m sorry, but I am absolutely disgusted by that German investigation. I know I really shouldn’t be this seething mad about it, but this Captain’s life was completely ruined because no one in Germany wanted to accept responsibility…

[@sharoncassell9358]

When in doubt blame the pilot...

[@sharoncassell9358]

Usually if the pilot dies they accuse him of malpractice.

[@pearldragon6508]

Couldn't agree with you more! You said everything that went through my mind in watching about the 'investigation' and its aftermath. Cowardly shites serving up the Captain as blame. Absolutely disgusting.

[@SpiritOfMontgomery]

the West German authorities have a real knack for being comically incompetent it would seem. The attacks at the Munich Games in 1972 are the best example, but also all the shit with the RAF (red army faction, not the Royal Air Force) during that time as well.

[@jayholley3252]

​@@SpiritOfMontgomeryamen so much for the masters lol

[@olivethrush7450]

I remember this crash in the media at that time. I had always believed what was told at that time. Ice on the wings, however thin, would destroy lift. I don't recall any subsequent inquiry ten years later and have gone through my life still believing the original 'story'. So refreshing to read so many years later that the original findings were 'faked'.

[@johnjephcote7636]

I remember a subsequent re-examination when the original verdict was upheld, maybe before Harold Wilson's premiership. The Comet take-off crash at Karachi CF-CUN 04/03.1953 was also blamed on the pilot but subsequently it was found that the angle of the leading edge of the wing was incorrect and that too steep a pull-up of the nose would not achieve sufficient lift, as designed. The leading edge was modified but I do not think the pilot was cleared. All on board died.

[@sunnyfon9065]

I feel bad for Captain James Thain. He lost his job and never flew again only because he was falsely blamed for this accident.

[@robertmcghintheorca49]

One can only imagine putting themselves in his place, and how it took him 11 years just to clear his name and prove the genuine cause of the crash.

[@expansionone]

@@robertmcghintheorca49 they investigate until it fits their narrative...

[@StellaMurano]

It's another example of how de-icing and de-snowing of not only aircrafts, but also runaways is crucial and can't be omitted. :( Sad story! I wonder if you'd be interested in covering LOT 5055 disaster? It's one of the worst air crashes in recent Polish history. Anyway, thank you for delivering high standards in every video ☺️

[@jeremydennis6988]

It's a shame that the investigation in Germany did that to him. The investigators should have been held accountable for a pisspoor job.

[@jgreenberg]

My favourite video by you yet! I'm a career pilot and lifelong Manchester United supporter who has moved to and been living in Canada for years! So as you can imagine, this accident is very very close to my heart. You covered it well, succinctly hit all the points and I was very appreciative of the time spent explaining why the loss of the team was so keenly felt given their immense talent. Thank you for your excellent work. Seriously one of the best people on this platform by some distance. ❤

[@DisasterBreakdown]

Thank you for your kind words

[@nm628679c]

If you're a pilot, you should know an engine fault of that magnitude should mean no take off until sorted. Something not even discussed in the video. It was obviously the pilot's fault!

[@jgreenberg]

@@nm628679c that isn't true for many reasons. We fly planes with defects all the time. Some of them are what we call hard defects, some are deferrable. An overboosting engine is not a hard defect unless the available runway distance is less than what would be needed to overcome the reduction and then re-application of thrust. Had the runway been cleared correctly, this accident never happens.

[@splifstar85]

Manchester United suck! Arsenal rule! 😁

[@larumpole]

I agree with Adam West's response to Mark Dawson's comment, to which I would add that this tragedy occurred in 1958, and Capt. Thain's decision to attempt a third take-off with an engine boost problem was 100% within the norm of the time. Engine boosts are comparable to compressor stalls in jet-engined aircraft today. By 1958 standards 1958, Capt. Thain did nothing different to what any other pilot would have done, and he had the support of the engineers who advised a take-off. Today, a repetitive compressor stall problem would probably lead to a different decision.

[@martinalexander2042]

I live in Salford, 5 mins from old trafford and a life long united fan. Every united fan and most uk football fans know of this disaster. However i didn't know how the captain got "thrown under the bus" and didnt realise harry was such a hero that day. Peace to all those people that died that day. Thank you for covering this story. Much love from, Salford, England ❤

[@darkfox2076]

I'm a life long united fan and this is one of if not the darkest day in our history. The loss of Duncan Edwards and most of the team was huge and sir matt winning the European Cup 10 years later was redemption

[@johnredcorn2476]

They now walk alone

[@johnredcorn2476]

@Rogginmenoggin all the same to me mukka. Overpaid ponces mincing up and down a pitch, the lot of em. Play a real sport for christ sake

[@greymark420]

You can always trust the newspapers to sensationalise a story, lets also ignore the fact that part of the runway was unusable /dangerous and contributed to the increase drag on the aircraft. Someone should have been accountable for ruining the career of this Captain.

[@JamesDavidWalley]

Not just the newspapers. The investigation was by German authorities. Who were they going to blame: their own airport managers, or some British pilot?

[@davidanderson4091]

Sadly, the West German government refused to accept the outcome of the British inquiry. As of 2018, the Germans still blame Captain Thain for the crash.

[@kristjanbirnirivansson528]

In this investigation if you could call it hat the West Germany behaved like they were East Germans

[@profd65]

Thain was to blame for the crash; definitely every bit as to blame as the airport. He should have parked the plane after two failed takeoffs and gotten it fixed, especially given the crappy conditions. Also, there's no way he didn't see that slush at the end of runway when he made his first two attempts to takeoff; he almost certainly coasted through it when he was decelerating.

[@EpicJoshua314]

Very sad that not only did the airport do an inadequate job of measuring the slush on the runway, but the German investigators cherry-picked statements from their own people even before the official report was released. The controllers who witnessed the takeoff testified the nose wheel was were it should be at during a takeoff roll, but then it went down, 2 German rescuers who climbed up onto the fuselage to free Kenneth Rayment testified that there was no ice as they were wearing rubber boots and they would have slipped, a German pilot who arrived at the scene minutes after the crash observed snow melting from the wings and there was no ice on them. Captain Thain died in 1975 at the age of 54; BEA never re-hired him after he was exonerated. Just one thing to mention, there was a 3rd flight crew member, Bill Rodgers. He survived and died in 1997. I really enjoyed this video and have been quite fascinated with the story after seeing the Mayday episode about it. You should do a video about TWA 841 in which the pilots were also scapegoated and the ‘probable cause’ was very ludicrous and there was practically 0 evidence to suggest the pilots did this. They most likely suffered a yaw damper induced lower ruddder hardover.

[@erichluepke855]

Stories like this are why we need channels like this, so that people know the truth about what happened to their loved ones.

[@lostvictims9769]

In remembrance to the victims: First Officer Kenneth Gordon Rayment Flight Attendant William Thomas Cable Geoff Bent Roger Byrne Eddie colman Duncan Edwards Mark Jones David Pegg Tommy Taylor Liam Whelan Walter Crickmer Tom Curry Bert Whalley Alf Clarke Donny Davies George Follows Tom Jackson Archie Ledbrooke Henry Rose Frank Swift Eric Thompson Bela Miklos Willie Satinoff And to the lucky ones who survived: Captain James Thain Radio Operator George William Rogers Flight Attendant Margaret Ursula Bellis Flight Attendant Rosemary Cheverton Johnny Berry Jackie Blanchflower Bobby Charlton Bill Foulkes Harry Gregg Kenny Morgans Albert Scanlon Dennis Violett Ray Wood Matt Busby Ted Ellyard Peter Howard Frank Taylor Vera Lukić Baby Lukić Eleanor Miklos Nebojša Bato Tomašević

[@anhedonianepiphany5588]

Agreed, although one could hardly consider Thain “lucky” when taking into account the consequences he endured. It’s pretty likely that the scapegoating contributed to his premature death, essentially making him another victim.

[@lufasumafalu5069]

if only they have western educated pilots they wont have this accidents

[@havanadaurcy1321]

​@@lufasumafalu5069Let me guess, you like Gaslit Liverpool fans believe it was Chelsea who did it? That's why the always the victims follows you and is rightfully sung by Chelsea😊

[@lufasumafalu5069]

@@havanadaurcy1321 what the heck you talkin aboot.. speak english normally

[@kidnamedzit]

That “Bobby Charlton” became the Sir Bobby Charlton we know and love today.

[@jadebullet3884]

Wow, i almost skipped this one because i had heard about it on multiple documentaries and podcasts. None of them mentioned the slush, only the ice on the wings.

[@Daveyboy4]

RIP Busby babes and thank you for doing the crash a decent video - one love UNITED

[@protector1990]

German investigation was faulty, and as some have suggested, probably wanted to avoid blame on their end (airport slush was their responsibility). I feel there could be one more factor at play. These pilots were RAF pilots, veterans of WW2, who have fought against germans. I also imagine people working in german aviation authority agency being veterans of WW2 themselves, and having a bias against British RAF pilots because of that.

[@warriorprincessharmony]

Very true

[@kino_61]

What? German investigations finding all German parts totally blameless and protecting Germans from foreign accusation, in spite of truth? There is absolutely no way this happened

[@profd65]

Or how about this: Thain was the one primarily to blame for the accident, and they recognized that. After two failed attempts to takeoff, Thain should have parked the plane and gotten it fixed, especially given the less than ideal conditions. Also, there's no way he was unaware that there was slush at the end of the runway: he could have seen it during his aborted takeoff attempts, and he probably coasted through it when he was decelerating. He knew about the slush at the end of the runway, he knew he was going to need that part of the runway, yet he still tried to takeoff. Most of the blame is on Thain's shoulders. Maybe the end of the runway should have been cleaned up, but nobody else that day wrecked his plane...only Thain.

[@indianfan1029]

Sadly thats how the world was, and still is. People looking for opportunities to deliver low blows.

[@read_the_tds1768]

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate this channel. It is safe to say it is my favorite channel. Just joined your Patreon. Keep it up.

[@DisasterBreakdown]

Thank you for watching!

[@doctorninetytwo3300]

R.I.P Captain James Thain, Germany's scapegoat!

[@BasementEngineer]

Bullshit.

[@profd65]

Thain was the primary cause of the accident. He wasn't a scapegoat.

[@doctorninetytwo3300]

@@profd65 how can you say that? He was blamed when the runway wasn't clear! He was as much a victim as the team

[@notyourdamnbusiness5974]

Thank you for this awesome and informative video! I honestly love your upload schedule. I work on saturdays and we have so much stress at work (especially at this time of year), but at least I know that there's an interesting and capturing video waiting for me as soon as I get home to enjoy my weekend, that kinda helps me through the whole week! Please stay safe and take care of yourself! :)

[@DisasterBreakdown]

Thank you so much for watching!

[@notyourdamnbusiness5974]

@@DisasterBreakdown no dude, thank you so much for doing this awesome work for all of us. Can't wait to come home next Saturday! (:

[@Beautifulclouds60]

Another excellent and informative video. I still can't get over how good your narrating is.

[@KanJonathan]

Being a (Association) Football fan as well, this case study is long overdue, since no other KZbinr of same subject matter (as far as I know) tackle this Air Disaster yet.

[@pops2728]

I flew to Majorca in 1959,61,62,63,64, DAN AIR in the Airspeed Ambassasor (Elizabethan) It used to take about 4 hours and never had any problems. All night flights from Gatwick. That must have been the limit of its range. Some times we had a stop at Barcelona. Very noisy inside! Always had this accident in the back of my mind. I remember seeing the headlines outside a paper shop from my bus coming home from school.

[@joeyragsdale1998]

In the aftermath of ACI regarding this accident, Captain Thain was pretty much held as a scapegoat by the german investigation, and when he died at age 54, someone who was interviewed said he was the 24th “victim” regarding this accident because of the 11 stressful years he went through to clear his name

[@profd65]

How was Thain not to blame? He failed to takeoff two times because his plane was f*cked up: instead of trying to takeoff a third time he should have parked it and gotten it fixed, especially given the bad conditions. Also, Thain definitely knew about the slush at the end of the runway, he knew he would need to use the end of the runway, yet he still tried to takeoff a third time. There's no way the guy didn't know: he could have seen it during his first two takeoff attempts and he almost certainly coasted through it when he was decelerating.

[@joeyragsdale1998]

@@profd65 either way, he shouldnt have been treated like that

[@nyxqueenofshadows]

i opened the video without even checking the title (oops) but as soon as i saw that photograph i knew exactly which disaster this was! great video, as always!

[@johnjephcote7636]

They were testing the Ambassadors (BEA confusingly classed them as Elizabethans) during my first holiday at Fairlight. Initially they used Alvis Leonides piston engines and only later, did they switch to Turbo prop RR Tyne. I remember the crash on the TV news at the time. I had forgotten the fact that this one was still piston-engined.

[@davidwarren202]

The Turboprop examples were only egine test beds. The Ambassado was powered by Bristol Centaurus engines not Leonides

[@the_yesnt1358]

Great video, also congratulations on passing 100k 🎉( while ago but still congrats)

[@eriesara6424]

Thank you so much, Chloe!

[@momentomori-rw6jp]

As always another great video! Looking forward to next upload! ❤

[@DavidKoppana-iq8jr]

21 survive this accident this is truly a remarkable historical story at was told in the sensitive manner to the surviving family members and the air crew.

[@ectem8599]

Great video on a quite rarely covered accident! Greetings from Munich.

[@robertmcghintheorca49]

This is undoubtedly one of your best videos yet.

[@edronc2007]

Very well made video. Thanks!

[@annabethchase2569]

Thank you for all that you do for this enthusiast

[@Haywood-Jablomie]

I like roast beef

[@justchillin8086]

Very nice video, hope to see you grow more in the future!!

[@refutonefandus]

This video shows precisely why I have such distrust for the media. Their stretching of the truth and lately, outright lies, has only been made worse with time.

[@casparcoaster1936]

Sad, facinating, really enjoyed, many thanks (u know how to pick em, and tell em, somehow)!!!!

[@aldersueki]

Great video as always Chloe thank you :)

[@hawnyfox3411]

I'm puzzled.... I thought it wuz a man narrating, no ? Is therefore Chloe either a sex-change or transvestite non-de-plume ? I'm NOT knocking the video, it's excellent I just don't understand folks thanking Chloe, when all I hear is a guy's voice ? Is Chloe his wife or partner then ?

[@alderius4040]

@@hawnyfox3411 Chloe is an openly trans woman. There is more information on her other page Chloe Howie where she sings and presents on other topics.

[@hawnyfox3411]

​@@alderius4040 = Cheers for that - (explanation) - it's appreciated ! First time I've (ever) stumbled on the (this) channel Good layout & I like the detail, so I'll likely watch some more. I've always liked the Airspeed Ambassador - In fact one crashed circa 1968 in London - B.E.A as I remember it - Tragically Race Horses were aboard. Always grieved me, knowing that - Poor creatures. POST EDIT ; I FOUND THE FOOTAGE - kzbin.info/www/bejne/jauzhZpua9dsl9k Kinda haunted me (knowing it), for years, then, some 20yrs after I'd learned of that accident, I stumbled (inadvertently), upon some vague-ish grainy footage of (say), the last 15-seconds of the accident, where it hit several other parked a/c & the edge of a terminal-building. Doubt she'll read this, but, would be good to cover it, just to bring it to people's attention - (it's not known of, by newer generations) Lastly, am pleased I saw the "Dan-Air" example being restored at Duxford, many years ago - IIRC, it's THE very last Airspeed Ambassador in existence.

[@x77punk77x]

Speaking of scapegoating pilots, do you have any plans in the pipelines to cover Boeing’s disgraceful and criminal handling of the 737 MAX fiasco (which included making statements implying that foreign-based/trained pilots were likely chiefly at fault because American-trained pilots were/are inherently superior in their eyes)?

[@joeyragsdale1998]

she just posted it today, your wish is granted

[@BlueAirways]

I Recuested This😃

[@ormondsworld3947]

Great video!

[@PredictedCyborg]

I remember reading a book written by a survivor of this crash, a journalist (whose name I can't recall. D:). It was an amazing read.

[@seanmorris]

The Day a Team Died - Frank Taylor?

[@PredictedCyborg]

@@seanmorris Looked up the cover - that's the one! It was on my Dad's bookshelf and I began reading it one afternoon when the power was out and my Dad and brother were playing cards. Continued to read it after the power came back because it was a good book! But yeah - worth a read for a view of this incident from the point of view of someone who was there and lived the aftermath.

[@boopyboops]

The fact that investigators/police take media first before anything else is extremely terrifying...

[@isusumu-x882]

Greet video, as always! Greetings from BKK airport

[@arurelius]

yay! another great video just in time for lunch

[@DisasterBreakdown]

Enjoy your lunch! :)

[@clarsach29]

Excellent narrative and I am relieved that Capt. Thain was eventually cleared even though it destroyed his career....I hope he at least received some financial compensation? And as others below have asked, did Munich airport authority face any consequences or did they continue to dispute the new investigation?

[@noneofyourbizness]

was it normal back then to leave significant areas of a runway contaminated? would airports typically perform regular checks to monitor the level/seriousness of any contamination, and then decontaminate if/when a predefined level of contamination had been reached?

[@emmanuelpower2439]

Clear and balanced. Thank you.

[@moiraatkinson]

Excellent video! I hadn’t previously heard about this and it just shows you don’t need modern flashy effects to make a video good to watch. If the story’s interesting and the narration - either voice or text - is good, it can still be gripping. The poor Captain though! He probably had survivor’s guilt over the swapping of seats and then being used as a scapegoat by the enquiry …. not surprised he lost his love of flying. He shouldn’t have been sacked and I think that measure should only be taken against a pilot who was negligent or was guilty of excesses the night before his flight! The deciding factor should be, what would his peers have done? Doing his best and failing despite that, shouldn’t cause him to be dismissed. I hope he got a suitable apology from BEA.

[@mrkiplingreallywasanexceed8311]

It's one of those tragi-heroic events from the past which has passed almost into folklore. Like General Gordon's last stand at Khartoum..

[@comeng301m]

another epic video chloe! i wanted to watch a munich air disaster/bea 609 documentary that wasnt by air crash investigation. could you do a crash in norway, braathens safe flight 239 otherwise known as the asker disaster? it crashed short of the old airport in oslo, south west of gardermoen airport. again, the best >30 minute video documentary about plane/train crashes.

[@pissant145]

I want to watch long videos, please don't apologize! I actually would like a more detailed explanation about the findings of each investigation. There has to be more to know about that slush situation.

[@wintercame]

Captain Thain died prematurely of a heart attack at age 54. In 2010, his daughter Sebuda attended the memorial for Flight 609 for the first and only time.

[@President_Mario]

Did Munich airport face any consequences after the second investigation's findings?

[@rutikasrajidhage2415]

Nice video! By the I have a suggestion your and that is about Air India flight 101 which crashed in 1966.

[@StephenJohnWaring]

There is a photograph showing people standing on top of the wing at the time of the accident, they would not have been able to stand there if it had ice on it.

[@chryseluna1648]

They were warned twice, 2 failed take offs, they were being asked to stay grounded, should always heed the signs we’re given

[@mariliatavares4151]

Recently, there was an accident with a soccer team called chapecoense. can you make a video about it, please? Thank you and keep up the excellent work! cheers!

[@tomhaskett5161]

Even then the media had to find a 'villain' to fit their narrative and make the headlines. Power without responsibility.

[@noneofyourbizness]

That aircraft, during their take off roll, would experience some loss of traction/ deceleration when crossing into and over an uninterrupted stretch of even the thinnest separating layer of slush ice contamination would have been obvious to all. Also, due to variations in aircraft type , each flight's take off weight , its speed entering slush area etc etc, it was equally as obvious that the degree of deceleration each affected flight would experience, and therefore the level of crash risk arising from it was essentially untested/unknown. Presumably the airport controllers/designers were well aware of the 'knowledge gap' they had, and so should have put in place procedure/s ensuring that any level of contamination of that type be decontaminated as soon as practicable, mitigating those imprecise/unknown risks-from-deceleration entirely, while also removing the seemingly irresistible temptation to vengefully destroy a former RAF pilot's civilian career. In such a scenario the Canadian air safety organization's findings would then simply have improved Munich airport's by then fully functional 'slush/risk eradication' process...IF such a thing had existed. Alas, those responsible for implementing such a process, shamefully and rather embarrassingly opted instead to use a scapegoat in the vain hope of concealing their failure/incompetence/laziness.

[@rilmar2137]

Great video. The way they put the blame on the captain reminds me of Sully in a way

[@Sashazur]

Sully was hailed as a hero for landing the damaged plane and saving everyone, therefore what is the connection?

[@ZilogBob]

@@Sashazur My thoughts exactly.

[@kalebwick3429]

February 1958? How about covering a crash that occurred in Iowa in February 1959? I think that would be very interesting!

[@Fcutdlady]

A lot of people say why didn't united stay in Munich until it was safer to fly but the truth was manager matt busby took his team into European competition against the wishes of the Football Association. United was warned if they weren't back in time for their next fixture they would be in severe trouble. They were under pressure to get back to manchester.

[@russbrown6453]

Woow fascinating. Do a video on the "Buddy Holly" accident, and " Lynard Skinard" accident.

[@alwaysfair4991]

"Give it one more go" Matt Busby to Captain Thain.

[@strahinjakerezovic104]

Small correction. FC Belgrade doesn't exist. They played agains Red Star Belgrade. Video is top of the range as always.

[@blakefrancis6635]

Hi Chloe, can you please do a video about Whyalla Airlines Flight 904

[@sunnyfon9065]

Crazy to think that people even made a song based on this plane crash

[@ijoseluis]

The doubt should work against Captain Thain. It was a routine security operation.

[@fuggenell]

If anyone was to blame it was FIFA for forcing the team to be back in the UK or have to forfeit points as a penalty.

[@LolLol-xy4rh]

The runway wasn’t even fully maintained so I would say that it was the airports fault

[@BasementEngineer]

It is the pilot's job to verify that ground conditions are acceptable for a safe take-off.

[@shaka7594]

​@@BasementEngineerIt's the Airports Responsibility to clear the runway, even tho they refused to take responsibility, the guilt was the removal of the house at the end of the runway and the added length to the runway.

[@sailaab]

That ending note.. of A 37 years young pilot never flying again.. is saddening.. to say the least. . And also loosing his goodwill. . Because not many would follow through for 10 years... or remember/ bother to know what happened of the peoper investigations

[@erajehaidery2019]

A lot of people believed it was not captain Thain’s fault but the German investigators believed that it was his fault

[@british.scorpion]

They had not long lost WW2.

[@maverickhistorian6488]

Sour grapes methinks. 🤔

[@abcdef-cs1jj]

@@british.scorpion He managed to postpone his stay in hell on that day. But in the end he still got there ...

[@abcdef-cs1jj]

@@british.scorpion He managed to postpone his stay in hell on that day. But in the end he still got there ...

[@eddiehimself]

It reminds me somewhat of the Helios air crash where they blamed the British ground maintenance technician for turning off the pressurisation switch, when it was not his job nor his responsibility to make sure all the switches were correctly set or as he found them. Unfortunately, when a tragedy takes place, people want somebody to point the finger at.

[@llYossarian]

That's _insane..._ -- Even the most common of sense has to tell you that while ice on the wings might significantly affect lift/control performance, it would have virtually _zero_ impact on the acceleration of an aircraft _pre-liftoff._ That a state investigation could ever have concluded such is hard to understand/accept.

[@davebeattie9573]

I have a slight problem with this video. You mentioned this boost surge problem that resulted in two aborted takeoff runs before the third and final tragic takeoff attempt. The flight crew was well aware of the problem and the work around of retarding the throttles until the boost surge had corrected and then advancing the throttles more slowly. After the fist aborted takeoff run this is what the flight crew did on their second run. When this too was aborted due to the boost surging remaining a problem they returned to the terminal and requested a groundside engineer to attend. Upon learning of the boost surging problem Bill Black, the ground side engineer, suggested the work around, and he was informed by the flight crew that it had been attempted unsuccessfully by the flight crew. At this point Bill Black recommended that the aircraft be grounded overnight while the engines were retuned to better operate at the higher elevation of Munich Riems airfield. The flight crew rejected this recommendation and advised Bill Black that they would again try the work around, only this time advancing the throttle even more slowly than before. The reason for this seems to be that the flight crew placed schedule ahead of safety. The ground side engineer had recommended the safe option. An overnight night delay with a departure on some time on February 7th 1958. However the Manchester United Football team had been informed by the UK league that they had to be back in the UK at least 24 hours before their kickoff time on Saturday 8th February. If they were not back in time then the team was threatened with a points deduction. This put put preasure on the flight crew to maintain the schedule of travelling on Thursday 6th February, as they couldn't guarantee their departure time on on the 7th would allow for the team to meet its league obligations. Further it should be noted that Manchester United had entered the European Cup over the strong objections of the UK league and a failure to comply with the league requirements to be back at least 24 hours before their scheduled kickoff time would directly harm Manchester United, through the threatened points deductions, but also all future UK involvement with the European cup. Another thing to note is that, according to Captain Thain's own statements to the various investigations and re-investigations the aircraft reached V1 of 117 kt but that takeoff speed of 119 kt was not reached. This was due to a sudden deceleration effect on the aircraft that dropped the speed to 112 kt and then 105 kt, before he looked up when he heard Rayment call 'we're not going to make it'. Thain, who was monitoring the instruments never alerted Rayment, the pilot flying, of this loss of speed While I do not doubt that the cause of the sudden deceleration was slush on the runway, I have problems with the idea that Thain was a scapegoat. He ignored a safety recommendation from the groundside engineer in order to maintain a schedule. Placing schedule ahead of safety has, time and time again, been a main factor in aircrashes. The documents I have read indicate that while slush on the runway was the cause, that ice on the wings could not be ruled out as a contributing factor. That Thain didn't alert Rayment to the loss of speed is also another factor, as it prevented Rayment from making an informed choice of what to do in a timely manner, or possibly distracted Rayment who would have been expecting a V2 call shortly after the V1 call. Note: documents on this accident can be viewed on line. www.gov.uk/government/organisations/air-accidents-investigation-branch. Search for G-ALZU.

[@kittyhawk9707]

so many words ..so much CRAP .. So you don't take any responsibility for cleaning your runway.. cos obviously your a German or a very bitter traitor that is cheesed of that Germany lost the war .. the accident was the fault of your countries airport for not ensuring the runway was suitable for aircraft to take off ..

[@shaka7594]

I agree with majority of all this and true from the radio transcript, however the discussion between Thain, Rodgers & Black was concluded with the opening of the throttles slowly, according to Harry Gregg, the snow had come down heavily between the 2nd and 3rd attempt, this contributed in the aircraft attempt to lift, most if not all the team had thought they would be staying overnight in Munich eg Edwards had sent a telegram to his landlady saying so, the points deduction was true if not met before the 24hr curfew, also the Press had a ball to goto that evening but Matt Busby would not have mentioned this for the Pilot to address the situation, it was purely agreed between the pilots and station pilot to re-attempt.

[@StephanieElizabethMann]

Isn't it always the same. Its easier to blame one man than for an airport /airline to take responsibility. That the pilot was pushed out in front on his own is just how management work. Circle the wagons and leave the bunny on the spot to take the fall. 😢

[@nigelh3253]

Runways seems to be an issue with plane crashes - you've talked about planes landing on wrong runways - in one accident hitting construction vehicles. In Paris, Concorde hit debris on the runway. In the crash here, slush. So, have runway inspections and management improved? I hope so.

[@exile220ify]

You should do a vid on the Lokomotiv Yaroslavl plane crash which wiped out an entire hockey team in Russia. Pilot error.

[@indianfan1029]

Seemed dubious as soon as you mentioned it. How can a thin layer of ice on a plane's wing survive an explosion. It had to have formed afterwards.

[@mingulay29]

Surely on the two attempted take offs the crew would have seen the slush on the runway as they slowed down to turn back. One engine was not performing as it should and other planes had de-iced that day but Thain knew better even though some ice is invisible. Surviving players and staff said they had resigned themselves to a night in Munich and the atmosphere in the plane on the third and fatal attempt was sombre with one player (who was killed) saying: "We're all going to get fxxxxxx killed." It was Thain's decision and he got it wrong.

[@luvstellauk]

Wasn't the person heading up the German investigation an ex Luftwaffe pilot who still bore a grudge? I seem to recall this being mentioned when the TV series Aircraft Instigation covered this crash.

[@SpiritOfMontgomery]

That honestly wouldn’t surprise me at all LMAO, if anything it makes the outcome make sense? Not that I agree with it either btw, he lost and should get over it.

[@densidste9137]

11:00 how does audio screw ups like this happen ?

[@pennywaltz4601]

Could you do air Illinois flight 710 next week? You wouldn't believe how Illinois trains their pilots on electrical problems and what they found out about the captain on other flights!

[@birdbrain4445]

Glad to see it's not just me that is honestly quite angry at the shoddiness of the initial investigation here. Against all present evidence and with a transparently flimsy case, the captain had his career and even life ruined, just so the West German authorities could shirk any responsibility from the airport, which clearly had failed to maintain its facilities. I'm glad he managed to have his name cleared at least. Shame on the authorities responsible for the crash and that investigation, shame on BEA for not standing by their pilot, and RIP to all the people who died that day.

[@Hallands.]

Slush on the runway prevented the plane from reaching takeoff speed but this was attempted covered up, right?

[@sharoncassell9358]

They have found out later that the type of de icer used varies too. Type 1 2 or 3. At the time of this accident they did not know what type was needed. Some types did not work in certain climates. So even if he used one type it may not have cured the ice on wings. Slush should have been cleared off the runway.

[@shaka7594]

There was no ice on the wings, none at all

[@BlackSkyP]

What's the music at 4:03

[@bunnyfeng]

What addons did you use to get such winter effects in X Plane, please?

[@DisasterBreakdown]

In this video I used something called TerraMaxx. Its a bit clunky to use but it gets the winter effects into X-plane 11. I've heard that X-plane 12 will have seasonal effects out of the box though

[@paulhunter1735]

I can tell you that if i was on a plane that had to abort two takeoffs and went back to the ramp to check it out i sure as hell wouldn't have gotten back onto it. I'm not putting the blame on the passengers but i would have just waited for another flight or something.

[@b.t.356]

There's just something about the fact that the airport had a slushy end to the runway that does not sit well with me. Reeks of questionable airport maintenance.

[@BasementEngineer]

Perhaps; but the final responsibility for take-off is the pilot's, and he must assure himself that all ground conditions are suitable for a safe take-off.

[@peteconrad2077]

@@BasementEngineer not quite. The pilot has a right to expect to be informed if the runway is contaminated. He wasn’t told.

[@BasementEngineer]

@@peteconrad2077 How do you know?

[@peteconrad2077]

@@BasementEngineer because this has been my profession for 30 years. I’m also a qualified instructor examiner and investigator.

[@BasementEngineer]

@@peteconrad2077 Fair enough, and I accept your qualifications. My question was meant to address the lack of information to the pilot, regarding ice/slush on the runway. How do you know the British pilot had not been informed? Numerous planes had taken off successfully from that slush-shortened runway. The British pilot ignored his malfunctioning engine with reduced power and took off anyway. What competent pilot would do that?

[@gregdrmax]

But...what about the left eng? Capt. pulled power, decelerating take-off roll, then throttling back up. I would see this as the cause...and noone to blame but the flt crew. Is up to the PIC to make this decision. He would not have even gotten to the slush, had he continued with full power and rotation. Noone can "what-if" this scenario, as in, "what if he had rotated and the engine failed". This is not the issue. Should NEVER had taken off with an engine not functioning properly. That's the deal!

[@helloitsian7090]

I liked this video

[@c_rhynehardt]

I would have disembarked and stayed off 😳

[@larrym.6152]

If memory serves me, there was an inference that the pilot may have had nerve injury to his feet. The idea insinuated that he may have inadvertently put pressure on the toe brakes causing the aircraft's inability to gain speed there fore utilizing runway space.

[@shaka7594]

Highly doubt that

[@larrym.6152]

@@shaka7594 then you need to read more

[@Firebrand55]

Also....the engine problem...which was the start of the events that led to the crash. I served 27 years in the RAF as an Engine Fitter and I cannot recall ever an aircraft taking off with even a suspect engine problem...and.. the slush on the runway; clearly the responsibility of the airport authorities to fix.....which they didn't.

[@collin6238]

Why the photo of the BEA Vanguard I didn't get the connection

[@helloitsian7090]

Hi, can you do vnukovo airlines flight 2801?