James Tour and Stephen Meyer Bring Clarity to Origin of Life Debate Pt 1

On this ID The Future, we kick off a series of conversations between Dr. Stephen Meyer and Dr. James Tour on the many challenges faced by origin of life researchers.
Dr. Tour, a world-leading synthetic organic chemist at Rice University, has recently been engaged in a series of back-and-forth responses to attacks on his work from KZbin science communicator Dave Farina. This has given Tour a new opportunity to critique experts in the field of abiogenesis and allows an interested public to evaluate both sides of the argument.
Philosopher of science Dr. Stephen Meyer hosts these engaging conversations. Meyer is author of the 2009 book Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design, which explores theories attempting to explain the origin of the first life. So Meyer is the perfect candidate to unpack Tour's expertise and draw out key insights. In Part 1, Meyer and Tour critique the work of origin of life researcher Steve Benner. Along the way, they discuss the basic definition of life, the RNA world hypothesis, the problem with hands-on chemistry, and why the challenges facing origin of life research increase every year as our understanding of the cell grows. "What is being simulated is the need for intelligent agency to move simple chemicals in a life-friendly direction," says Meyer, and researchers "seem utterly blind to the role of their own hand, their own mind, in achieving the results that they get, such as they are." This is Part 1 of a four-part series of conversations.
Watch the video versions of these at Dr. Meyer's KZbin channel: @DrStephenMeyer
Learn more about Dr. Tour's work via his KZbin channel: @DrJamesTour

[@notavailable4891]

I appreciate you guys being charitable to Dave. You didn't point out that he is less educated than a professor or otherwise call his character into question or attack him personally. Even though he is very much into doing that to his opponents. Thank you.

[@CameronFanSite]

The anti-Christians hate you and us. It is just cowardice when you seek the approval of people who hate you.

[@F15CEAGLE]

Dave might have been "coached" to come off just as did. He is the only person the whole evo camp chose to participate in this type of debate? IMO Dave has really created an even worse look for the evo side.

[@alexmaceachern8450]

What a great team the two of you make. What great truthful scientific material. Stephen, I am really enjoying your series with John Ankerberg. May I suggest that Jim also produce a series with John? This material has a huge positive impact on people when they hear it.

[@JosiahFickinger]

I just listened to a talk from James Tour yesterday. What a happy coincidence!

[@Gandoff2000]

If you put all the components of a completed watch in a dryer and ran it for millions of years then after time the watch would completely assemble into a working watch without help. I say nope. This is because of the occurance of repeating events which is common in our universe. What would cause every possible event to occur? Even "trying every possible combination" requires a knowledge of which. Combinations have been tried. Instead, events would repeat again and again.

[@GreatBehoover]

The watch is not even a TINY, TINY, TUNY PEICE of the complexity of a cell. DNA CODE CAN'T SELF-CREATE and SELF-ASSEMBLE into cells ACCIDENTALLY. CAN'T.

[@JosiahFickinger]

@@ji8044 The rib was more of a symbolic reference that man and woman are meant to be together and equal.

[@benjy288]

@@ji8044 No one would expect it to

[@Gandoff2000]

@@ji8044 Of course not. The designer would have to alter the DNA in that rib to grow a woman from a rib. That is no problem for the original designer that made the first man's DNA.

[@m0RRisC2319]

Currently reading Meyer’s Return Of The God Hypothesis. One of my favorite quotes in it was “pre-biotic natural selection is a contradiction in terms”. The RNA World Hypothesis is a colossal failure.

[@roblangsdorf8758]

Thank you, Stephen, for making this easy for people to understand.

[@amertrkawi8821]

Big Thanks to professors Tour and Meyer. I would like to point to a simple fact that all of those who are trying to recreate the conditions in which the beginning of life started are intelligent beings (I am sure they don't contest that) who are using their intelligence to try to do that on an infinitesimal scale but yet they are still struggling (not to mention all the cheating that is being committed). How can they deny the supper intelligence which by default would be required to start this whole life in it's supper massive scale as opposed to the infintesmal scale they are struggling with. The fact that we need to use our intelligence to understand things around us clearly signals to the fact that supper intelligence have brought this whole existence to be. Have we forgotten why we are intelligent?. Not only that but also inquisitive. Not only that but also can make sense of things (we have perception of things). Not only that but also the world around us is in such a great order and perceptible. This well organized stage of an observable, perceptible existence and the observer who is us clearly signals to an intended purpose of this whole story. A story that can not be explained by any thing other than an intelligent design. Designed to point to lead us to think higher that just dumb matter (which does not have intelligence to creat nor does it have the will to take the initiative nor does have the perseverance to continue to reach the goals and fulfill the purpose of this harmonious existence. Not believing in God all knowing all MIGHTY is like not believing in our intelligence. In Conclusion dumb matter cannot do it (the same matter that scientists play with in laboratories and in open doors. Some times they destroy to release energy such as nuclear energy and nuclear bombs. Atheism is a total denial to human intelligence. What can not be understood without intelligence cannot come to exist without intelligence. Simple and easy. If they there is nothing behind this whole story of existence then why are we searching for something. Isn't insane. They try to look for the rational cause of all the bits and pieces but they Deny the rational cause for the whole picture. Isn't denying the same principle that leads us understand things. And they go on fishing for irrational explanation taking human brains down the drain.

[@franzpaul6244]

my two favorite...

[@alanburton6368]

What does Dave say is the sequence of molecules to make a ribose and the time intervals. He should know his theory.

[@franzpaul6244]

stay tuned...

[@cptrikester2671]

Just watched this on their interview.

[@duanekeith7816]

Reminiscent of TV chefs mixing and pouring, and crossing the room to produce the final product from the oven.

[@georgethomas9263]

It will be good to take formal action to correct errors in the origin of life teaching contents in science textbooks in as many countries as possible. Clarity in the numerous dead end paradoxes and the unknowns should be detailed.

[@donhershfeld9930]

(just a 1st draft muse here, contributed FWIMBW) As a student, i majored and plainly excelled in both mathematics and biology, and then went on to become an aquatic ecologist developing orginal ecosystem simulation models. That doesn't make me the 'Elvis' of the life sciences, but it DOES mean i can do more than 'carry a tune in a bucket'. Now in chemistry OTOH, i'm not going to try and break into elaborate 'harmonies' well outside my 'range', but i CAN do a little better than to just barely hum along. With some relevant standing, and perhaps prompted by His Whisperings in my ear to fill in my blanks in your ear, i CAN at the very least compose a melody catchy and pleasing enough, that listeners who aren't tone deaf, can perceive some degree of quality. But more importantly? Perhaps a really gifted and divinely inspired 'songwriter' out there, can greatly improve upon and polish up the very basic elements? Maybe, so i'll just toss this muse out there. As i listened to this content, my thoughts kept drifting back to the folks in my own little circle, who have a fine education and ample experience in completely different fields of study or other endeavors. To people who, while they may very well be bright in their own right, are simply NOT in any position to hear this content and using what they may recall from taking Biology101 years ago, tap their own cognitive toes - without missing the beat, at every critical, contemporary juncture. When such people are philosophically predisposed against every hint of their own creaturehood, i think they are as unable to grasp the significance of this content's many technical points, as on rare occasion my own hearing comes upon a tune at just the wrong out-of-sync instant, and so will go on for a temporary, indefinite time being confused, rather than informed by whatev the composer of the music created. It is not his/her fault that my ear and brain just need a 're-set' in order to track properly with the objective truth of the musical composition. So, how might someone who is by no means a chemist, and is opposed to a world view founded upon special creation, EVER going to be able to begin to re-align their thinking, and recognize the most classic composition of all time, for what to others' unstopped-up ears, it plainly is? What CAN be done, is to bridge the fundamental disconnect communicating through a simple analogy that bears no associated, subjectively-dervived 'baggage'. So this suggestion from common, ordinary life came to mind. Presumably, as children we all enjoyed a sweet treat such as a cupcake, and of all the baked goods one might choose to try and put together for oneself, this type of food makes for a fine logical introduction to baking, no? i can cook fairly well. Yet even as an adult who for 20+yrs prepped fancy breakfasts in our B&B, i'm NOT a baker. Still, hand me a bowl, a wisk, a just-add-water dry pre-mix, a sleeve of colorful frosting, a baking tin, those paper liners, a gas oven, a spark, a source of natural gas, and a timer... and if i wanted to, i'm almost certain that even having never tried it before, inside of about half an hour, i could stick a candle in a DIY cupcake, turn to YOU, and start singing, "Happy Birthday2You!" As could anyone else, of course. Why, with encouragement and minimal supervision, even a little child is fully capable of doing likewise. My point? With some careful thought by a better chemistry major or genuine synthetic chemist, each of the basic ingredients required to create an edible cupcake... (e.g. items such as cake flour, eggs, baking powder, sugar, salt, water, vanilla flavoring, food coloring, etc³), ... as well as the components of a kitchen, can be directly analogized in such a manner that anyone beyond elementary school, can get a sure handle on the sorts of issues that would naturally lead any reasonable person, to conclude that their birthday cake doesn't self-assemble and then bake itself. Such an analogy now established, upping the existential ante now, it should be obvious to anyone, how it is that when the bakery item called for is an elaborately custom-decorated, multi-layered, gourmet-quality wedding cake, someone who is a gifted professional, with a special, well honed talent and who comes highly recommended, ALWAYS prepares it - probably not the bride's Mom, not even if she had at her disposal, detailed KZbin video instruction, but only one crack at it. Mom KNOWS better (as does her daughter!). The bride has just one 'special day', and that cake represents the whole celebration, something always intended to be an unforgettably perfect, public, testimonial gathering. Ergo, that cake can't be half-baked. Those amateurs who have never baked a single cupcake from LITERAL 'scratch'... (by which, i mean entering a wilderness with no tools or other help, clearing a field, raising and harvesting the grain, milling and refining the flour, and on and on and on, ALL the way through to constructing the hydroelectric dam that sources the oven's spark), ... CAN recognize the impossibility of the alleged first cell, just popping out of any planet's oven into undirected being - anywhere, anytime, EVEN if granted an eternity of multiverses with which to try! The very suggestion DESERVES ridicule from a sober, serious, critical thinker. Only a fantasy writer, bent upon fleshing out a fictional bizarro-world, would ever begin to embrace the absurd suggestion. Otherwise, to do so among adults would be embarassing , even shameful. In as much as it is already made plain from over 60yrs of cell biology's mounting evidence, that such necessary 'accidents' ... (as are STILL tragically being entertained in the secularly popular imagination today), ...are intrinsically infeasible and so never happened, then it becomes ludicrously clear, how life came to be. When no other alternative makes itself available, and the field of OOL is rife with a demonstrable dependence on 'the science of the gaps', then "God did it" is THE only reasonable conclusion an impartial mind can draw, period, no apologies necessary. Am i onto something useful here, in alluding to the practice of cake baking? The argument is of course similar to the analogy of discovering a functioning watch, factory, 747, or a smartphone's calling for a designer, but those are all engineering examples. Not to open a can of annileds now, because men and women both 'get it', but those illustrations tend to appeal more to males (only a self-limiting half of humanity!) Not everyone looks at the world like a planner or a systems engineer, but everyone has a birthday, and eats. Every boy or girl looks forward to a day when he or she can expect a present. Life is the biggest gift anyone ever gets in the here and now, and THE pivotal issue in life is recognizing (or denying) its Giver, its Rescuer. To my mind then, a good cake-baking analogy becomes strategic in the battle for hearts and minds. No PhD-level reasoning is required, to appreciate the myriad technical details, and to conclude (without any cognitive 'glazing over'), ... why ID must be the valid inference made to adequately explain our being. Anyone looking in any direction upon all that has been MADE, anyone equipped with the equivalent of a functioning 'Easy Bake Oven' north of their neck, is thereby "left without excuse". As i was saying, today i'm just an ex-ecologist with extraordinary but dusty academic grades from yesteryear, but one who has been given a heart for equally well educated fools, who ARE still suffering "a STRONG delusion" concerning their origins. i also have been given idle time to contemplate how to present the first effective crack in the skeptic's cemented POV, by which their spell might begin to be broken. Should someone else wish, and feel led, somebody younger and more acutely familiar with the chemistry of life, is invited to identify and then draw the best parallels between what goes into the basic cupcake mix, and what we ALREADY know, even in part, about what is necessary for life to exist. Don't care to run with that idea? Maybe you are gifted instead with one little (but brilliantly revealing) baking insight, that when combined with those of other essential 'recipe ingredients', illustrates why secular science limited to materialism, cannot hope to discover any 'self-rising flour' Let me know what YOU see as a fine parallel between biochemistry and the process of baking cupcake ingredients?

[@DartNoobo]

You call that simple and accessible?

[@JungleJargon]

We have a known human history that only goes back 5,000 years to the birth of Noah. All calendars, genealogies and historical records of this same history. Every ancient civilization goes back to sixteen ancient civilizations that are the descendants of the sixteen grandsons of Noah. The Cohen modal haplotype identifies the IJ paternal lineage of Hebrews and Arabs. The C paternal haplogroup can only be the Hamitic descendants of the House of Nimrod. The D paternal haplogroup is descendants of the Canaanite tribe of Sinim which is the namesake of ancient China and Mt. Sinai. Gomer is the ancestor of Europeans which have the R paternal haplogroup. Gomer had three sons Ashkenaz R1a, Riphath R1b and Togarmah R2. With this information, we can identify the all of the rest by following the migrations. Tubal's descendants were in Italy where the K paternal haplogroup is 8% of the population in central Italy today, the rest of the people are from other places. Madai is said to have asked to marry one of the daughters of Shem and there is an entirely separate semitic mtDNA haplogroup lineage (A, X & W mtDNA) that follows the descendants of the Medes wherever they are found. To make a long story a little shorter, the following is a list of the descendants of the sixteen grandsons of Noah. *The sons of Japheth are:* 1) K is Tubal 2) L is Tiras 3) N is Meshek 4) O is Magog 5) Q is Madai 6) R is Gomer 7) T is Javan *The sons of Shem are:* 8) IJ is Arphaxad 9) H is Elam 10) G is Asshur 11) F is Aram 12) F2 is Lud *The sons of Ham are.* 13) A, B & C is Cush 14) E1 is Phut 15) E2 is Canaan 16) E3 is Mitzrayim

[@KenJackson_US]

*Jungle:* _"We have a known human history that only goes back 5,000 years ..."_ I love that this meshes with secular history that only goes back to the Sumerians who seem to have popped into existence with all the trappings of civilization in Mesopotamia, or the plains of Shinar, in that timeframe. If man evolved 200,000 years ago, as the secular world insists, then _surely_ someone would have come up with a writing system and written some history prior to the Sumerians. But there's nothing. And there's no reference to anything prior, except to the flood, which is referenced all over the world. But the thing that shocks me is that there doesn't seem to have been any written language prior to the Sumerians. I thought surely Noah would have brought a large library with him. But there's zero evidence that happened. Indeed, the earliest Sumerian writings looks like it had just been invented.

[@GreatBehoover]

And yet silly believers in evolution WILLFULLY IGNORE all evidence that destroyed their MYTHOLOGY. These naturalists are NUTS! The DNA CODE CAN'T do what these FANTASIZERS BELIEVE it can do!🙄🙄🙄

[@GreatBehoover]

Excellent research. Do you have a paper on this?

[@JungleJargon]

@@KenJackson_US Have you ever read Genesis? It is a compilation of various texts that tell us what happened. There are also the texts of Jasher and Enoch which describe all of the same things. Are you able to define "Sumerian"? The Bible identifies them as Assyrian and "Nimrod".

[@ProselyteofYah]

@@KenJackson_US Indeed. I liken the sudden appearance of humanity's culture to the Cambrian explosion. Just silence... then suddenly, something. Scripture tells us the first thing men did was to harvest the land. And the records of human history that is reliably evident, is what they call the "Neolithic revolution" when agriculture began in the Ancient Near East, and that is less than 10,000 years ago. And we also have genetic evidence now that all humans alive are from but two ancient ancestor humans not all that long ago, but they call them "Y-Chromosome-Adam and Mitochondrial-Eve” as a cope. Asserting that there "must have been other humans" some time before this, and that couple just so happened to win a "genetic jackpot" which beat all the other millions of human couples from their time period (which is insane if you do the math). Once more, the appearance of life in Genesis, actually matches what they teach in secular science in regard to evolution, just explained in a simplistic poetic format. -Sea & water life came first (fish, amphibians and reptiles, which the ancient Hebrew & Greek includes the definitions of) -Then birds (which are the avian upright dinosaurs, which all evidence now declares they were feathered and not scaled - hence why the evolutionists have always claimed they are the ancestors of birds, because they always 'were' birds from the start) -Then mammalian land creatures -Finally mankind. But not a lot of people seem to notice this order of life of Genesis matching the fossil order and what is taught in science text books alongside the most up to date genetic evidence.

[@philroe2363]

Farina doesn’t understand the chemistry or basic logic. His only “argument” is “but muh papers!” 🤣

[@rougaddon5103]

The papers with the chemistry and logic…?

[@DartNoobo]

Well, you swith that to religious people with "but mah book"!

[@boxelder9167]

@@DartNoobo- It would take a miracle for nonliving matter to become alive. If God was really God you would think that He could at least prove it by raising the dead or something instead of just saying, “Here’s muh book.” 😂 Like anyone is actually going to read it. 🤣 I am sure if God ever did a miracle like making something come to life then someone would have written it down and people would still be talking about it.

[@AB-80X]

See that's what you don't get and what proves the weakness of your argument, Why don't you just remove Farina from the equation and just focus on the peer review papers? Real question. Please answer. No matter who present those papers, they are what they are. Whether Farina has a Ph.D or not, it does not change that fact.

[@F15CEAGLE]

Study to show yourself approved.

[@sparkyy0007]

I feel so bad for P. Dave, the real victim in all this.

[@MrSontaran3]

Clearly, Axonite is needed. Axonite can analyse itself!!!

[@duanekeith7816]

The byproducts would always have been primevally inevitable.

[@edluckenbill9382]

More the three . Lol

[@edluckenbill9382]

He gets paid to lie . 😂

[@DartNoobo]

I believe he is absolutely sincere in his views. Why would you doubt his motivations?

[@edluckenbill9382]

Sounded like a six year old when cornered. Dishonesty is not a virtue . 😅.

[@amertrkawi8821]

The sigiture of Creator who originated everything is deposited in everything, every atom, every electron, every neutron, every proton. If you break it down to that you will know that every thing is made from the same elements. The only difference between an atom of gold and any other kind is the number of electrons, neutrons and protons. DNA is the instructions of building life. The number of chromosomes hosting the DNA in each living cell is what makes the difference between species. Inteligence, curiosity, and pecrceptability to be able to learn, conclude and make decisions. A set of feelings to help us bond together in a true loving relationships. Negativity (evil) to appreciate positivity (good). All of that points to something super precious. Thanks and praises to the creator of all things. GOD ALL KNOWING ALL MIGHTY (ALLAH)

[@DartNoobo]

​@@ji8044yeah, it also is an istruction on how to handle the instructions. Or what do you mean?

[@robmarshall956]

The back and forth between Dave and James has been childish to say the least and the debate was absolutely terrible. I have no problem with much of James Tours science but please 🙏 look at his conduct during the debate with Dave Farina. Yep Dave’s lost we understand this in the science and in his personal identity but that was a woeful debate, don’t put Mr Tour out there as the pit bull as a response because personally he doesn’t have the God given ability to respond in a Christian manner, he just doesn’t. You are not going to reach people which is what this is all about yeah ? Via and void of the gospel by such interactions.