Discussing Decisions! Card Tables and To-Dos

A raw, unedited conversation between two 37signals' two co-founders, Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson, about a recent decision they made regarding Card Tables (a new Kanban feature in Basecamp 4) and To-dos.
In this video discuss the decision not to allow customers to convert To-do lists or To-do items into Card Tables or Cards. Even thought it's been a top request, they go into the philosophical and practical reasons why they decided against the conversion feature.
[Note, sorry for Jason being so close to the camera, and the uneven face sizes - we're still dialing things in. Video quality will improve as we go and standardize our setups. In the meantime, full speed ahead!]
Find this interesting? Useful? What did you want to know that wasn't addressed? Have further questions? What other decisions would you like to see discussed like this? Post any/all in the comments below and we'll fire up another conversation soon!

[@jsardone]

It'd be really cool to be able to 'kick over' some tasks as a way to curate cards and still have one hand washing the other

[@thedr00]

I LOVE Card Table but I've found it's introduced a heck of a lot of duplication, frequently to extract comments and discussions from within Cards and them into other tools in other projects. I also find it's quite easy for a Card in Card Table to suffer from and quickly need to become own project ("Create New Project from Card" is a feature I wish existed on a daily basis). Quite possibly I'm using the feature wrong.

[@timbertens776]

Thanks for explanation, still I think you're making the wrong decision here. Giving something a fresh start is definitively a valid approach that people need to consider from time to time, but forcing it is a bad onboarding strategy. Convince me that to do's are not just card table task with the most simple workflow there is: open - closed. I love you guys for trying to reinvent how things should work, it comes with very good decisions in this case also => 'blocked' is not part of the workflow, but the state of a task. True! The lifecycle of a task starts with a phase that is not really determined already that it actually should be done, but it is considered. True! In the lifecycle of a task it could be that it is determined it no longer is of any use, so it doesn't need to be done and needs to end up in its own bucket. True! Making a to do's different than card table items and make the view not interchangeable. Please reconsider!

[@GabrielPipolo]

This conversations are sooo amazing, not just for understanding basecamp and the decisions behind but also a glimpse to how you guys work and many other important concepts that translates to many areas for any company! Thanks for that and please keep doing it!

[@jakobsturm2438]

Very insightful! Thanks a lot!

[@bearramelk7697]

Totally agree with fresh start! In the days of dot matrix printers and 12" green monitors, the company reports took all night to print before they got to manager's desks. So we sent an email (in 1984) asking managers to cancel unnecessary reports. Barely a shift in volume! So one day we stopped sending the reports. We waited for the screams. And some screamed, so we added that report to a new list and sent it out. And then silence. Print volume went down by over 80% !! FIMO is an eternal driver :-)

[@keshavkhaneja]

love these videos. You guys are the real deal and just getting to know how you guys think and make decisions is very valuable! Can't wait for more of these :)

[@37signals]

Thanks, glad to hear you're enjoying these Decisions videos. More on the way. -JF

[@ChrisMooreOfficial]

Couldn’t agree more! 🎯

[@jonbloor8661]

Love these videos and content. I love reading the book and think it has a great way forward for projects that are not just software.

[@andrewwilson7982]

I just use the card table for sprints. They are a good way of focussing everyone on a group of important tasks for a short period. Todos are just the bread and butter of GTD in project land. Also cards are a great way of showing high level progression of modules through a process. Once a whole bunch of todos are done and signed off and a module is declared finished at the stage the milestone was set, then move it along in cards. It’s a mistake to try and manage everything in cards. In Todoist this is highlighted by the number of times you switch views back and forth because it’s easier to deal with a list of there are a lot of actions and easier to focus on a card when there are a few. The two methods are required and work well together, you just need to decide what and how to use them.

[@afiq980]

Amazing podcast for founder/developers like me!

[@GaelMartinet]

Okay, for the six-weeks sprint and doing it quickly with only two people. But please, think about your users and their workflow. In many cases, I would love to use this new "Card Tables" feature, but I can't because you simply miss releasing its support in the public API and Webhook. Then no Basecamp integration can use it for now; Everhour, SupportBee, or our own GitLab synchronization etc... I have the impression that you went a bit fast ;-)

[@jacobsandler1311]

As a user, this explanation doesn't make up for my frustration at the lack of this feature. I would far prefer if to-dos and cards could be integrated.

[@37signals]

Have you seen that we've added the ability to create steps (mini to-dos) on cards since this video came out? Not 100% sure that it's what you're looking for, but it might help. You can read more about it here: 3.basecamp-help.com/article/676-card-tables#steps -Kimberly

[@AllanCaeg]

Found a way to make both worth together. E.g. our copywriting tasks are under to-dos, as we can execute across projects with the same toolkit and mental state. On the other hand, we have Card Tables for projects such as marketing campaign development.

[@rlounge5286]

Looking forward to the BS3 to 4 transition episode. Pls do it :-)

[@bens196]

I think for me there is a lot of trust that you guys are thinking through everything you build. That’s why I wouldn’t have even thought to question this 😂

[@ryannichols9966]

My only issue is that card tables are not connected to existing to-dos (can't pull those over). So cards are great for support tickets or the general "need to see if it's assigned, in progress, or done" -> like they said...a conversion tool. But to-dos are great when someone needs to be notified when this thing is done so that they can do their tasks

[@37signals]

One thing to know... you can be notified when things are "done" with Card Table too! By following a column, you'll get an alert when a card moves into that column. So if, for example, person A completes their portion of the card and moves it from column 1 to column 2, if person B is "watching" column 2, they'd get an alert that a card has moved there and is ready for them. You can find more details here: 3.basecamp-help.com/article/676-card-tables#watch-column. Hope that helps! -Kimberly

[@ryannichols9966]

True, but if I’m understanding correctly, that person has to be watching the column vs an admin being able to also set a user as default “watching” If a user isn’t watching a column then they wouldn’t get notified and as an admin or project manager I wouldn’t have the ability to “make them” watch it. Or am I missing that setting? That’s where to-dos win currently. But I was more talking about also being able to pull in to-do tasks into cards and also being able to two-way update a to-do or card based on columns/statuses created.

[@37signals]

You're 100% correct - there's not a way to "make them" watch a column in the same way you can choose to notify someone once a to-do is completed. If you have a feature request for making to-dos into cards, let our team know! You can email [e-mail] and they'll collect details about your feature request. -Kimberly

[@user-vf7gh2cw7o]

👍

[@realmofstratford]

How do you add multiple card tables to a project?

[@37signals]

Hi Andrew! You can add multiple card tables with the ••• menu in the top right of the project. Go to "Change Tools" and when the Card Table tool is turned on, you'll see a "+ Add Another" link just below the Card Table description. You can add as many Card Tables as you want to a project! - Kimberly

[@jonbloor8661]

Ah, no import meant I fudged an import in Hey and regretted it forever.

[@JantoDreijer]

Sounds like "it's a feature not a bug" rationalization.

[@Moderntractiondotcom]

Omg please build the portal! Love this idea! And you guys! :)