Discussing Defences and How to Get Tanky in Path of Exile

[@Lolcohol]

I know I missed a bunch on my little impromptu spreadsheet, so let me know what I should add, and then I might make a more thorough video! PS. I wasn't thinking about T17s when going over this, but T17s are stupid and overtuned as hell and so terribly balanced that they aren't even worth discussing right now. BTW if you missed it, here's my HC playthrough stream highlight: kzbin.info/www/bejne/m3fPk6h7qZJ0sLs

[@TerenceChiII]

Thing is, I don't even want to make a build rn that can't do T17, cause it feels like I'm missing out on the best farming strat then. So getting enough defenses for the new standard of farming actually became ridiculous this league. So I just ended up not making another build at all, cause with my ~80 div I can't afford a good enough build for T17's (that also looks appealing to play).

[@erutherford]

If you're referencing the blade vortex character as an example of a tanky character [10-15K] max hits then I think the less traditional defenses [Get Gud, high mobility, game knowledge, being able to analyze the screen almost instantly, etc.] are actually the reasons you're tanky. Put the same character into my hands and goes from an Uber killer to "wet toilet paper" trash tier garbage pretty darned quickly. IMHO the people that are good at the game don't realize HOW PATETICALLY STUPID [ignorant?] a lot of us are at the things that you NEED to be good at the game --- Game knowledge + skill trumps almost everything else IMHO ... YMMV.

[@jogadorjnc]

It's more important to know what kinds of damage threats need what kinds of defense layers For example, spell block and spell suppress protect you against the same thing, one being mitigation and the other avoidance doesn't really matter much What matters is that you are relatively tanky against all of the forms of damage or at least know what kinds of damage can fuck you up (e.g. shaper beam on doryanis prototype builds)

[@Blackmagickz]

Could you make an actual spreadsheet with more things listed? I think it would help out alot of people who just dont know the game. I learned alot just from that.

[@ArticulateArena]

Imagine talking about damage and survival one a streamer account lol

[@drazendadic6666]

i love having 77% block 75% spell block 90% phys reduction crit immunity ailment immunity 10 fortify stacks capped chaos res 100% life recovery per second (i'm not exaggerating) minion taunt offscreen dmg (holy relic of conviction) AND STILL randomly dying in T16s. excellent design, 10/10

[@AnaICarnaval]

Sounds like meaningful combat

[@loreneea4989]

Gotta love checking all of the checklist mechanics and it still not being enough

[@ReignForever]

That's because holy relic builds have shit phys mitigation. It might say 95% but in pob if you look at your physical max hit pool it'll be like 15k while all the ele and chaos max hits will be between 35k and 70k. I haven't min-maxed my build yet, and I could be wrong about yours, but I feel like that's why we still just randomly pop out of nowhere.

[@DrHavoc1]

Where's your 80+ allres and 100% spell suppression?

[@Iwo142]

You need either supress or additional max res

[@whorhaydelfuego7190]

The POE idea of tanky is what most games would still call glass cannon. My biggest complaint though is that I usually have no idea what it was that killed me. The game never gives any feedback indicating what kind of damage and from what source you are taking. There are debuffs, that appear in the far upper left corner of the screen, which isn't anywhere near where you should be looking. But even those debuff icons only help if you have time to mouse over them or memorize what they look like, and can check it in the fraction of a second that it takes to go from full hp to dead. A combat log would fix a lot of this by giving you something to parse and figure out where the hole in your defense is.

[@emanuelalves3786]

My opinion, what makes poe so good it's the fact that it is not a "brain dead" game we're u could just make an immortal caracther, with 3 screen clear, wich also one shot bosses It require an active playstyle, as lolcohool said "u nerd to be aware, what are your builds strong and weak sides" IF u dont have chaos res u need tô be aware of the chaos dam sources, that include mobs dam type, map mods, altars. This Kind of talks seems to me a New player wich don't understand it and want the game be easier so He could play reckless. IF u think this, way pay attention on it: POE IT'S NOT A GAME FOR YOU

[@whorhaydelfuego7190]

@@emanuelalves3786 Yeah like I said though the game gives almost no information regarding what is or did kill you. Unless you happen to spot and memorize a debuff icon, if it wasn't just a one shot. You can have over capped resists, tens of thousands of armour, and thousands of instant life leech, and still get wiped out in fractions of a second. Screen clutter from both player skills, MOBs, and MOB skills that there is no clarity in what is happening. Your best bet is to export a character to a third party tool and let it try to emulate the games math to tell you max survivable hits and such. Then try to bring up whatever your worst stats are. That's honestly a pretty shit situation to create for your players. Like I already said a plain text combat log resolves all of those issues and has been a solved technology for decades. The only reason to not have one is to obfuscate the information and feed into elitism like you're demonstrating here.

[@emanuelalves3786]

@@whorhaydelfuego7190 I maintain, every mob has his own skill, added to archnem also has his own effects, go ahead and memorise it, learn what are the pros and con the build u playing and ill be surprised how u gonna stop dying, u are just complaining about don't like all the things that can happen on game, só just don't play and stop asking the game complexity to be reduced

[@whorhaydelfuego7190]

@@emanuelalves3786 Where did I call for less complexity? Obscuring what is happening by deliberately not providing a combat log is not complexity. Think of it this way, you're playing a game of D&D. Your party gets into a fight with a group of monsters. The dungeon master tells you what the monsters look like, then rolls a die and then informs you that you died, lost exp, and have five attempts left to complete the dungeon. PS that character is in rubbish shape you should make it stronger. I'm playing a character with 4.8KHP, 950 ES, 85% FR, 89% CR, 75% LR, 75% ChR, all over capped by at least 25%, 90% phys reduction, and 75% attack/spell block. I don't expect the character to be immortal but I do get tired of being off screened by attacks that don't render a projectile or ground effect. Reflect might be a suspect except this is a minion build with the character doing essentially no damage but having 54 life on hit, roughly five times what a reflected hit could do, and getting thousands of life per second from instant minion leech. Less complexity is a possible solution to the problem, but it's a bad idea. Though sadly that looks like what they are planning for POE2, with trash mobs needing to be fought like bosses and being encountered in a trickle. Where as providing a combat log allows us to keep all the complexity and frenetic pace of game play, while still giving the player feedback which can be used to improve their play and build.

[@emanuelalves3786]

@@whorhaydelfuego7190 that's already know, the moment u roll the map, the give u this infos, if u already known the natural mobs on the map + the effects of the map, the knowledge to survive the map it's already given. The problem resides in the players overjuicing the maps, without caring aabout the consequences of it, like "the map has ghost" if u a pathfinder that means u build could be completly bricked by it, but guys just ignore that facts and die to things they don't care about to understand, and come to cry about "we dont have info", wrong all the infos are there, you the one don't wanted to go after it. Tell me, have u ever take a look on poedb for the multipliers or effects of each mob or mod, or at least for the main bosses?

[@gamefuler]

I agree with the original poster. Getting everything is not the problem, it's getting everything in a non-meta build while juiced mapping. Too much shit happening during maps to call things "skill issues." Ubers are a joke compared to mapping because everything is super telegraphed. If you make a rare mistake you can just log/die and use another portal. PoE shouldnt be seen as a game where you need skill to grind out gear. Ubers? Sure. That should definitely be seen as a "yeah im just that guy" type of achievement and you should be rewarded accordingly. But during mapping i just wanna sit down play around to make my character feel like an immortal god vaporizing anything it looks at no matter what alter I click on or map mod I run. The game is much more fun when I can just go brain dead after a long day and just slaughter and hear "TINK" as a reward every now and again. I bet you anything this post is coming from the perspective of a casual player that is used to alch and go with his t16 maps and then going into t17 maps and then feeling like he just swapped places with one of the mobs he was culling through. That feeling of wanting to run juiced t17s to really make bank is awful especially for people that get FOMO. Side note, i blame the lantern a ton for making it feel like mapping is less frictionless than it should be. Probably wont be as bad when we dont have it next league.

[@erutherford]

The thing is PoE is NOT a game that you need to be top .0001% at to get good gear. If you have great game knowledge you can go from zero to hero in practically no time at all. For example this league I did an OK job of "copying" a Jungroan build day one .. fell behind some on day two ... and day three (?) Jung's build was worth in excess of a mirror and I'm like --- wow ... I wish I knew how to cross THAT particular bridge. I'm sure it's because Jung is a god compared to me but it's in that disconnect area where things get frustrating.

[@itsallinthepast2944]

@@erutherford mean while here POE prevent me to play skill i like to do content i want because it cant handle the heat given when i crack those content lmao

[@wights6365]

@@erutherford it is called ggg nerfing all the farming strats that most streamers used to get currency

[@garhong9125]

Hey Locohol, I've given the game up for 2 leagues now but this video seems interesting, so wanted to add my take. To properly define tanky, we need to know whether someone is referring to "hands off the keyboard" or "playing intelligently and not dying randomly" (which you covered) but also the intended range you engage at. A ranged character can have 1 set of defenses and feel tanky while a melee character with the same set will feel squishy. Just as our own damage uptime is important to actual dps, so is the monster's. When I played the game actively, I always played ~6 characters per league. One of those builds each league was always a totem guy since that's the style I enjoyed playing most. My totem guys had NONE of the defenses listed in the reddit post. What he always had was ~4k life, ~3k mana, MoM, and 75 all res. That's it. No suppression, evasion/armour values under 4 figures. No block, no dodge, nothing. Yet he very rarely died and never "randomly" (if I died, I always knew why). I always managed to reach L95 without even capping res and I never really had to focus too hard until 97. He always made it to 100 and the last couple of leagues I played were in SSF. In fact, the final couple of weeks before I quit the game, I wanted to challenge myself one last time and rolled totems in HCSSF with an unascended Scion and made it into the mid 90s multiple times before getting bored. Why does this work? Well I believe it's because I have a few inches of range to place my totem, which then has a full screen of range for attacking. That means the guys I'm killing are usually REALLY far away from me. If I needed to fight those guys up in my face, there is no way I could pull any of that off. The thing is, PoE is more and more becoming a game of "the longer sniper rifle that explodes the screen" (one of the reasons I left the game for and also one of the reasons ~2 of the 6 builds I play each league are melee). A game where it is easy to turn on God Mode does not stay fun for long for players who like to challenge themselves (which is the purported audience of this game). Because ranged play is dominant in this game, they have to keep scaling the defenses back to at least allow a chance for mobs to kill a skilled player. This obviously means if you enjoy melee, it becomes harder and harder to get anything that's actually tanky because defenses are balanced around ranged characters (since they made their game such that any character can get any defenses). Ironically, until this "freedom of any character to get any kind of defenses" is removed, this is also why melee will always suck no matter what.

[@D2ezbmu]

Yeah I love that 90% evasion, 100% suppression, stun immune, ailment immune, 30% block, 40% phys dr, automated 21 immortal call, 21 rallying cry, 6k es, HUGE es leech (trickster), heartstopper, phys taken as chaos, ele taken as chaos, and probably more wasn’t even REMOTELY enough to do T17s consistently.. all while doing about 30 million pinnacle dps… this game is legit starting make me not like it. My ehp pool was 68k i think. I could do some easy maps but usually got 1 tapped by any of the bosses.

[@Lolcohol]

Yeah T17s are trash. I expected they'll be nerfed hard next league but their current state is a travesty

[@Kevin4693]

I think you don’t need that many defense, but put more budget into damage, as not getting hit is imo the best way to survive in t17s. I do 140M pinnacle dps, offscreen mobs and instant phase bosses, making me not getting hit often, and thus minimal deaths running t17s. All defenses I have are 100%suppress, 95% evasion, 90% reduce crit taken, ailment immunity and simply being mobile. I have 3k ehp with almost no pdr, regen and leech. I do die sometimes, especially to those dangerous necropolis monsters, I had to put frogs to replace them😂

[@blackopsy9]

In my view the only thing they need to change in the game is add a death recap, combat log, or both so you can clearly divine what actually killed you. Include the damage type, the monster performing the attack, and visibly show the debuffs you were afflicted with at the time of death. It's ridiculous that these conversations around defenses even need to happen in the first place, the player deserves to have access to more information.

[@PauloVictor-tz9bg]

Dying on poe is not a skill issue, its a knowlegde issue. You have to know what your build has amd what is gonna kill otherwise you'll get deleted. Theres just so little of skill demonstrantion while playing poe.

[@MGMarkov]

in T17 there are like 10 things that cannot break/delete your build, this is the big problem IMO, the T17 moved the goal post even further.

[@beware3586]

That knowledge gets harder and harder to learn each league. The defense mechanics should be massively simplified. Armour and evasion should be the primary for any build. Additional layers should be given based off your character type. Bonus layers should have trade offs not be a requirement. They had a hard time balancing certain mechanics so they overcomplicated them as a solution. Now everything is mandatory and you still die.

[@gerbo8018]

My main issue with defences is the ammount of layers you need to build in to not die often. Like you need something from almost every category you wrote down. And that is the main frustration. So the build you use as an example you are using 10+ layers of defence Ofc life is always needed. i don't really count that.

[@erutherford]

Not just that but, for example, there are multiple ways that your movement [or action speed] can be reduced. So you have to find solutions not just for chill but also freeze, hinder, maim, some additional abilities that don't fall under any of these. The same sort of things apply more broadly to defense. Thus a ton of armour does NO GOOD vs. overwhelm maps / monsters and if you can't "kill them first" then you're forced to have other layers or to otherwise guarantee that the fatal hit NEVER lands.

[@itsalex6876]

I think if poe has death summary, it would be great. You will finally understand what one shot you.

[@erutherford]

Sometimes I wish I recorded my games so I could clue in on what status effects [bleed, poison, curse, etc.], what monster mods & map modes were around, altar mods, etc.

[@itsalex6876]

@@erutherford if you are using Nvidia graphic card, you can always do this by using the in-game overlay, there is a function you can trun on that captures last x minutes of your game (and it is not always recording so you don't need to worry about your disk storage). I've been using this to record my lucky drops and other funny stuffs.

[@popcorn32145]

First. I think he's getting at the fact the game is getting more and more ridicous as the leagues come. As in before if u had capped res, and some armor/recover ur GTG, and chaos res was icing on the cake. Now you need like the guy says many many layers and it makes it near impossible for the average or new player to get get far in the game before giving up. I find myself quiting the leagues earlier and earlier as they make just playing casually more frustrating. If a new player or some who has maybe 5-8 hours a week try to keep up with things you are going to have a bad time. I really think the main issue is there is a huge gap between the people that play ALOT and have been playing for years, and the person that can play every day and when they can its just an hour or two.

[@Lolcohol]

NICE!

[@DuckGoat-mr9tu]

They are doing it intentionally, the goal is to make casuals quit as poe2 comes online. I wish they were just honest with the community.

[@Anikthias]

It is definitely possible to get "good enough" survivability still with just capped res and block. The goalposts that are moving are the aspirational content, and personally I'm fine with the pinnacle content requiring pinnacle defense/offense. But one can definitely still do t16s of their favorite strats with ordinary defenses and farm multiple div/h

[@erutherford]

@@Anikthias What you're saying is largely true but it's not necessarily the whole story. IMHO "game knowledge" is by far and away the most important thing. Example: My build is more of a "bossing" build as opposed to clear. Sure I can run T16s ... but inefficiently & slowly. Sure I can way over-sustain Shaper/Elder/Conquerer maps ... Sure I can beat the Maven invitations when rolled ... But my returns / hour are [comparatively] SUPER low because everyone and their brother can do the exact same things AND they are doing it more efficiently than I am. My biggest problem is the lack of game knowledge to know how to pivot to a different farm that is better suited to my build with better returns; to generate more than a Div or two per hour playing "hideout warrior" ; and things like that.

[@Darthwickett]

This league defenses feel really bad imo. I’ve got 50% MoM, 7k total life & ES, corrupted soul, 30% phys taken as, defiance of destiny, leech life mana & ES, frost shield & arcane cloak. More damage than I need for mapping and normal bosses (instaphase). I can even clear T17 maps ok. But the bosses feel horrific to fight. I’m used to doing Ubers at end of league, and idk if I’ll even get a shot to try them this league. My next step is rebuilding my gear around a Mageblood. But this feels well past the point I would start Ubers last league.

[@LightVizard]

You can make a full tank build and still die 😂

[@Lolcohol]

You can, but is the goal to literally never die? Also there are plenty of players who play Gauntlet who don't die very often at all!

[@erutherford]

@@Lolcohol And I'm sure those players have ELITE game knowledge AND game skill to back up the great Gauntlet players though. We're likely talking .01% maybe??

[@bpusef]

@@erutherfordfortunately those people make build guides and stream so you can learn how not to die to everything.

[@SpudNug69]

Tbf I have all those things other than the 95% convert and die pretty badly on t17s. I do recognise that my deaths are a skill issue though

[@Cryttanz]

He's right about the part that investing in to defence has a very steep cost on your damage output. Suppression feels mandatory on every build and a decent amount of armor for molten shell and a decent amount of phys taken as x. I feel like any non meta build struggles with uber bosses below 100D investment but that's also a skill issue on my end.

[@tesladrew2608]

I don't even know how you get a decent amount of suppression as a left side of the tree/minion build.

[@АнтонКръстев-ф1ъ]

Whatever tanky stuff you make at the end of the day you die to hasted DD so yeah. Even t0 won't save you.But started seeing people even in softcore getting defenses items/stats so GGG are doing it kinda it the right way.

[@bob-dm1mo]

This guy has been listening to the hardcore guys. Its easy to get swept up into the never die but once a year mentality. Ziz and the other guy the elite never diers.

[@xXVintersorgXx]

You missed the "crowd control" layer. Slow, stun, freeze. The only issue with defenses is that 75 res and uncapped spell suppression is not viable. And lucky suppress should be on the left side of the tree or available on an item or jewel

[@datadood]

Yes, more detailed sheet/video please!

[@minhocho5487]

I take either armor or evasion, (both if champion). One form of recovery that is at least 2000hps (life flask pf, leech, life regen,) Ele immunity, bleed CB immunity. One form of reduced ele dmg taken(mac res or less ele dmg taken) At least 40%phys res without armor calculations.

[@giceism2832]

the post is spot on, poe dkriders need to stop

[@skyler1469]

well we can all agree that 85% of armour and evasion, 100% suppress, 80% with ele res and 75 chaos res is not enough to be considered tanky rocked LS champs with machination, doriany and other shenanigans, still oneshoted by random white mob due to to % as extra stacking from 6-7 different sources

[@ZovcDrafts]

I would like a more detailed spreadsheet and video. 👍

[@guitaraholic]

Most of these things aren’t required for the majority of builds but the problem stems from the most profitable Strats in the game are pigeonholed to the few builds that can fit all of these and dps in - further distorting the meta . The ceiling of what a build should be expected to do , especially on league start , is so far out of whack I just want a massive rebalancing patch next ! We are long overdue !

[@SmthIcanNvrHave]

The "skill" is avoiding the wrong map mods. Give people T17's with terrible mods and the ability to scale them up 300% and of course everyones going to corpse flop through the map, especially with scarab of stability giving you 12 portals, pretty bad design honestly. You should get rewarded for not dying, not given more loot and more portals for corpse flopping through the map.

[@MrVvulf]

The original poster forgot one massively important defensive layer - DAMAGE. The same build with 40 million DPS will die 10% of the time that build dies when it only had 4 million DPS. Movement speed is also an underappreciated defensive layer.

[@Lolcohol]

Yeah damage matters a lot! And mobility is also extremely overlooked by a lot of folks

[@erutherford]

Don't forget that Chill & Freeze [screenwide] are also great defensive layers. Combine that with enough mobility to "almost never get hit" and you're not in a bad place.

[@voodoo1069]

I don't know I kind of feel like defensive requirements are becoming pretty annoying these days. A few years back I'd decide on a skill, figure out how to get 10-20mil dps, and spend the rest of my budget on defensive layers. I'd pretty easily get to 100 with 4 to 20 deaths doing all content from juiced mapping to boss farming. These days I feel like it is far more important to decide on a defensive archetype (ES + aegis block, Full or near full phys conversion + evasion, high life + defiance and all need 80+ max resis ideally 90 + suppression) then I try and figure out what skill can get enough damage with the budget left to feel good playing. Also in the current state of the game I'm rarely hitting 100 with under 100 deaths and I'm for sure not running all content because different defensive layers work far better at some content then others to a point it isn't worth doing that content without it outside of a one off for challenges or something like that. I don't expect to be immortal to all content in a small or even mid tier budget but when I'm rocking 2-3 mirrors into a build I feel like it should be pretty impossible to die to 99% of content. With that mind set it really only leaves me with a handful of builds that are even worth playing after my first build of the league.

[@louisbuss6068]

"the one i played last year didn't die" uhhh yearh. Cus last year there wasn't necro mods or t17's

[@Lolcohol]

Yeah all we had was Affliction which wasn't rippy at all

[@louisbuss6068]

@@Lolcohol Well.. sure it was rippy but imho not like this.. I have 283 deaths on my main char that was build for HC this league.. I'm 8k hours in and played since Beta.. And i can't remember anything like this league in terms of rippyness.

[@Lolcohol]

@@louisbuss6068 Yeah T17s are absolutely stupid. I really don't like them. They are a goal I guess but so many of the map mods are just unrunnable, so the solution is to Chaos spam them away. I hope they get nerfed to hell :(

[@Cryttanz]

Your "decent" defence build that covered half of these things at most has below 2mil dps which... is super low for softcore standards no offence and on how much investment? 100divs? 😅

[@Lolcohol]

No lol that was way under 10 Divs. Thanks to certain events in the community, giving exact Divine prices is no longer an option for content creators, but 100D is insanely overblown. I haven't looked at what is in the "Decent" tier but that build is incredibly cheap for what it does and is at least an order of magnitude cheaper than what you think it is :p

[@licoriece]

That sounds too complicated. I'll just go with more damage and if I pay for 6 portals, I'll use 6 portals. With all the loot explosions currently, I have to leave the map multiple times anyways...

[@corpusarmatae8541]

PoE's fake difficulty has been a known issue for years, the real irony of this video is being a gatekeepy contrarian for the sake of.. What ? Unfun obscure mechanics that need you to get a phd to get started on that dunning kruger curve ? Great design. The devs used to speak openly about how they took pride and satisfaction in killing players, and most of the ways they use to achieve it are unfair. They kinda stopped when they forced everyone to use spell suppression, to replace the dodge mechanic they judged too overpowered. (meaning it was the only decent defense mechanic in the game) Well, it so happens to be about when the game started to get backlash after backlash, every other league. And when most leagues didn't go core, too. (which was a rare occurrence, before.. Only synthesis?) At the end of the day, it simply is what it is. There is just no point denying it so adamantly tho.

[@Lolcohol]

Gatekeepy? I was trying to teach people how I understand defences to help them through the gate, not lock them out. Some people are absolutely determined to never learn, never improve and always blame the game. I'm not saying the balance is perfect, but this game requires knowledge to improve at, and it's actually very satisfying to get your head around all of it, even if it takes a lot of time and effort

[@corpusarmatae8541]

@@Lolcohol You know, we like to think everyone has the potential to become an astrophysicist if they put their mind to it but sadly, among other limiting factors, the IQ bell curve does exist. (and against the opinion of everyone out there, it is absolute) I mean what I said. *It's gatekeeping.* Because no matter how benevolent your tutorials and guides are, they can't transform every stoopid into a wise sage. What you'll end up with, down this path, is obviously a convoluted mess, desguised as a fun system, with only a handful of people truly understanding it, making everyone else follow their guidelines. We kinda already are there, to be perfectly frank.

[@Lolcohol]

@@corpusarmatae8541 If you're too dumb for PoE, D4 exists. We already have D4, so we don't need to make PoE shit too to cater to those people. PoE isn't perfect, but complexity is a large part of the appeal, and dumbing it down to appease the lowest common denominator would only make it a much worse game.

[@corpusarmatae8541]

@@Lolcohol See how that works ? Ain't that fullblown gatekeeping now. But. The funny thing is that I agree with you, but I also agree with Jonathan's take on the simplification of systems such as how the gem system is implemented in PoE2. It's simpler, yet clearly has more depth to it. Nothing to do with dumbing it down. And D4 bad, everyone knows that.

[@aldontrimble896]

Just disliked this league all around. Feels like B team devs on this one.

[@jesuz999]

Wow, the twitter dude has to be amazingly bad at PoE XDD Im running a League Starter Elementalist Arc glass cannon(ish) build and yes, I'm kinda stuck at 90 but I do alot of trail and error stuff butI could easly lvl up if I focused on that and carefully chose my fights. When Searing Exarch kick my butt on multiple runs I crushed The Eater EZ

[@drj8899]

That post was some extreme hyperbole, but the core points were true, it’s annoying that suppression feels mandatory or you keel over. Phys taken as ele should be a clever way for non Armor builds to handle phys damage but is just straight up better than armor

[@Imbapiranha]

The issue is the oneshots. If you had bigger time windows to gage the power of a rare mob, you could play around it.

[@erutherford]

For me the issue isn't necessarily one-shots or any SINGLE thing but it's usually overlapping issues that when the come together results in a dangerous situation that I fail to react to in time. For example not recognizing the one dangerous rare / mob on a screen full of enemies + my build types often have poor damage projection & uptime [I.E. have to stand still to do damage, doesn't clear the screen, etc.] + Getting cocky because I'm immortal vs. "trash rares" + I'm a poor player when it comes to generating currency / items so I'll almost never all of the layers of defense I should have + ...

[@Mink0twink]

Agreed, this game has a serious issue with tanking everything then just dying out of nowhere

[@67awesomekid]

POE moving the goal post for ubers being mandatory in softcore kinda sucks ngl. and tehy gate keep those ubers by making sure you have a quality mapping build. we have a crafting league and progression feels kinda buns unless your doing a meta build whicch unironicall is probably one oof the few things to not get nerfed in the last 4 years.

[@Lolcohol]

Yeah I don't like it either. I still think that Ubers should just be a kinda bragging rights type of content - you do it, you get some kind of cosmetic thing. Also T17s now being seen as mandatory is probably the worst thing that has ever happened to build diversity. I really hope they change those significantly next league

[@guitaraholic]

I’d much prefer if Ubers gave you an MTX rather than actual build enabling uniques

[@prosamis]

My progression experience has been great and I'm playing firestorm of pelting lmao

[@aldontrimble896]

Hardcore ubers give a different mtx

[@erutherford]

While I mostly agree .. playing Devil's Advocate ... I assume (?) that the PoE whales [I.E. the ones that spend the most money going to GGG] are exactly the players that can do day 3 [week 1?] Ubers and complain that they are too easy. If you don't cater to the customers that keep your business afloat you may not have a business for long.

[@m.h.4907]

Just my 2 cents but the best defense in this game is to clear off screen. Sounds bad but it is what is

[@KineticCode]

Yea go lightning arrow hc sounds like a good strat to me

[@skyler1469]

kinda true, as long as you delete everything there is nothing to kill you, sadly enemy is ranged as well and it has some major bullshit behind its attacks :D

[@m.h.4907]

@@KineticCode HC is a joke anyway bro. Come on, they play Hardcore with logout macro because the game is so awful balanced

[@daanstrik4293]

@@KineticCodeHC is a completely different game to SC (what most people play). HC values survivability above everything else because nothing has value if you can’t survive to use it. But SC (what the vast majority of people play) has very different priorities. Dying once every 100 maps is completely unacceptable in HC but perfectly reasonable (and mayby even excessive) in SC. But softcore also has different expectations. If a mod might kill you in HC you never take it, in SC you usually will because the loot is worth it.

[@KineticCode]

@@m.h.4907 every single hc game has logout macro abuse. it's a part of the genre, king 👑

[@AuroraTheFirstLight]

I want a death log to know what killed me so i can improve Many times i just don't know and I'm blindly guessing what killed me

[@Lolcohol]

Yeah I wish they'd add something basic, or at least pause the debuffs on you so you could hover over them to see what was affecting you when you died. There's really no reason to not add that kind of thing at this point

[@ejswentura823]

spell supression is pain in the ass, shouldnt be required for every character meanwhile theres noway to target craft it, everyone just fracture base with desired suffix>spam essence for chaos until spell supression appear... GREAT DESIGN

[@erutherford]

That and/or graveyard crafting is what I plan to do for any "near end game" gear I need this league. The thing is while I can OBVIOUSLY craft vastly better gear gravecrafting [all T1 mods, Life, Chaos, Suppression, ...] it just isn't engaging me for some reason. As recently as 3.19 [3.20?] I was crafting 80+ Divs of gear for my character but the last few leagues it just hasn't been worth the bother for some reason??

[@Scroapy]

left side of the tree has to go evasion/armour and path to right side for supp without any choice is also not great

[@yukariyoshisaki6333]

The worst thing for me is the fact that you can have a 20k raw hp build with 200k armour and 2k leech and still die to a blue pack of just any projectile mob in less than a second and the game makes no attempts at telling you why that happened Was it a bunch of unlucky crits? Was it bc the pack has as extra and my res was fucked for some reason? Was it bc my flask dropped? Or was it something else entirely? I can only look at my deaths with hindsight but some of the information I need to really understand what happened is gone now and the game doesn't care

[@erutherford]

That does hurt as deaths SHOULD be a learning experience. The gotcha is those deaths that are 1-shots OR you take multiple shots in less than a second leaves you will little time to understand what was going on.

[@daanstrik4293]

If I remember correctly the main point of that reddit post was how defensive scaling always pales in comparison to scaling offence until you reach the t1-t0 items. the post is obviously exaggerated (probably from a moment of frustration. I won’t judge) but I do share the sentiment that defences on top of the bare minimum feel waaayyy less valuabable than simply investing in more offence. The best defence is usually just killing the enemy before they reach you.

[@Darthwickett]

I actually know the post you are talking about, and they were actually two separate posts, but a similar theme. I actually followed the dps as defense rule until I got about 80M pinnacle dps, and now I’m scaling back in favor of defensive options

[@erutherford]

By far & away my best character was a [mostly] glass cannon whose motto was "don't get hit". By far the best in kills / deaths ; currency generation via farming ; success in the league mechanic ; etc. The next league I opted to play a melee character that was largely immobile and had to "stand still to do damage" .... I don't have to say how poor that character was even though they had 100X the armour ; 60% more ele mitigation ; higher recovery ...

[@user-gp7ks3gv7q]

broo i have 200k hit pool tank exark slam and hold in to the beem have 100% supp cap eve 95% 90% phys all ress 75% and i just got F in the asssssss from a random mob from Allflame Embers that give you Omen's and white mobs just delete me when i kill them and i can tank so much more stuff no problem and is not like they have the DD mod on them oo and i have max fortify and insta leech + 1-2k regen per sek ever 2 sek from armor and eve mastery 1%

[@Lolcohol]

Yeah the balance this league is absolutely stupid, especially in T17s

[@lRuanl]

the AllFlame mob is probably the one who uses poisonous concotion, which oneshots me every time ( i have 6k life + 75% chaos res lol?)

[@kylemarston6822]

Armor needs a fix and suppression is basically mandatory which sort of feels bad

[@erutherford]

Sounds like my character last league. 300K armor with flasks down, 90% all ele res, 75% chaos res, multiple defensive auras up, full recovery [in 2-4 seconds .. not 1 second] and I was reliably getting croaked from overwhelm or "something" as my defenses didn't have layering on top of the "basic mitigation" so one specifically rolled rare could easily one tap me [or beat me down in a second via multiple hits]. My current character with no armor, 80 all ele res, 70% chaos res, 1 "defensive aura" is vastly better as they have layers to the defense and better recovery. Annoying but absolutely true.

[@nathanfay1988]

The original poster actually missed something incredibly important. Even at 90% max res, you can still get blasted by spells with penetration. Only way around that is to shift damage types, for example if you go Mahuxotl + Tempered by War, then you can only take damage as either Fire or Chaos. There is also a Grasping Mail Haunted modifier which gives "Fire Resistances Cannot be Penetrated". With this setup you can go 90% fire and chaos res, and be immune to damage penetration except for Wither. Unfortunately this setup does not fully account for phys overwhelm

[@erutherford]

I think that's part of the problems that the original poster was trying to get at. If you want tanky defenses that do not depend on high level (?) game knowledge, mobility, "skill", etc. then you need to have webs & layers of various defenses and it's not economically viable compared to just "clear screen, move on"

[@Seinglede]

The thing that exacerbates this is the haunted modifier mechanic, honestly. While in the past you could build a few different defensive layers and then target maps that didn't specifically attack them, with the addition of haunted modifiers that makes doing that every map way more difficult to do. If I had a character before that had no crit damage reduction, I could see a crit mod on the map and go, "Oh boy. That's a bit too risky for me. Let's roll over that." However now you can get a mod on the monsters in your map, after investing all of your potentially very expensive scarabs, that gives the auto crits and a bunch of crit multi. Even if you put it on the lowest density pack, you are rolling the dice that the packs don't get a rare with bad mods that teleports behind you and kills you instantly out of nowhere. It makes it feel like having the normal 4-6 defensive layers isn't enough and that you literally need every defensive layer all at the same time in order to actually feel tanky.

[@Pizzastealingninja]

I think jung doesn't realize how good he's gotten. He probably needs to grow into recognizing that he's up there with the best.

[@Lolcohol]

For real. The dude is easily the second best player right now but because Ben exists, he doesn't seem to realise it

[@totallynottrademarked5279]

Out of touch boomer streamer take. Your non tank build literally has over 70k ehp lol. The average player is not going to see the items much less have the points for the tree to get this level of tank. The requirements for even basic mapping have really become astronomical over the years. My 80k ehp hexblast trickster literally got clapped by a white mob while looting through capped suppress, ~50% phys convert, 3 stacks of ghost shroud, 96% evade chance, and 4.5k between health and ES. No crazy alter debuffs. Oh and 80% reduced crit with full elemental avoidance. No recap to see wtf could have possibly caused that makes the game worse. Having the defensive puzzle to solve is fun but not knowing what piece didn’t magically work for a fraction of a second makes the game feel like shit. They need a death recap where it shows your effective stats after modifiers from alters etc. with like 2.5 secs of damage intake.

[@Lolcohol]

Yeah this is actually fair. Before the changes to auras, you really could get away with a lot fewer defences. I actually love focusing on the defensive aspects of a character but I get how frustrating it can be if you don't understand what keeps killing you, even if you feel like you have done quite a bit (but not enough) to try to not die

[@totallynottrademarked5279]

@@Lolcohol I get it. I played mostly RF jugg because I hated dying. Now that I have a better understanding my builds become almost immortal eventually. However, I still die in half a second randomly with no way to tell what just happened other than I went from full to zero faster than I could hit a flask or even blink sometimes. I don't have an answer for how they fix this but removing the death penalty from softcore would go a long way as the typical player really is not going to have points to fill out their defenses from the tree. So they see all of these auras and gear on stats and don't realize without complementing them from the tree they really amount to next to nothing.

[@Lolcohol]

I think the main thing is to just slow the game down so it's easier to understand what's happening, but they've kinda painted themselves into a corner where players want mayhem -- they want a million monsters on screen to explode because it feels good, but at the same time they want perfect clarity, and I don't think it's possible to have both, so the solution is to be prepared for anything, always. PoE 2 seemingly aims to solve this, but a lot of people complain that it looks slow and boring :s bit of a catch 22

[@totallynottrademarked5279]

@@Lolcohol I think everyone is just scared they are going to make it too much like Ruthless. But time will tell on that. I mean something as simple as the new detonate dead animation and sound effect just made me so much more aware of just how many damn mobs even use that skill. I had no idea and it's a miracle I didn't die to it more often lol.

[@whorhaydelfuego7190]

@@Lolcohol A combat log would give perfect clarity. There really is no good excuse for not having one. Just a plain text file with timestamp, source of damage, damage type, and amount of damage dealt is essentially all you'd need start sorting things out.

[@stanyeo6650]

I have the highest CoC DD Inquisitor EHP in Softcore league(ZDPS) on ninja and though EHP does not accurately reflect the full picture, I have to agree with the points in the post and they are also the same checkboxes I had in mind. I wanted a full lazy build with no Progenesis, no mana cost etc. Before the character I have slapped on CoC DD on many classes and the random one shots in T17 were the most annoying thing to me(some people dont care, I just feel disrespected). The goal was to build a *Well rounded beast* to do as many mod combinations as possible but alas a jack of all trades in PoE is a mistake in efficiency. Intentful map rolling to your build(which was what I wanted to avoid) however remains necessary if you want to not torture yourself with low DPS. Having said. Degens still hurt and One shots in T17(map mods) still sometimes punch through for whatever reason. Just go full max DPS and forgo tankiness is what I would recommend. Its not worth the time and headache in Softcore.

[@hrodwulf172]

Dude your own BV example has 15k max hit...cant deal with degens, very low damage, is level 96...like what? You're proving your own point wrong with this PoB. Even your giga end game pob isn't even close to dot cap while using a progenesis and taste of hate, 84 max res while still having 30k ele max hit. Entirely leech dependent on a skill that requires you to get up close to start doing damage...no ailment immunity outside of freeze and bleed. I know PoB isn't everything, you can have 2m ehp on PoB and still die all the time. But I'm sorry, I think that's some schadenfreude level of cope right there. I do not see anybody taking that build to 100 as it is by doing any form of juiced mapping. . Scoured breach domination shrines...sure..I imagine many peoples response is "well you don't need every build to get to 100. 95 is good enough!". I think that's a failure from a game design standpoint imo that most people do not get close to 98 - Obviously that is a subjective opinion. I don't think defenses should be unnecessary, but obviously there is a problem that the majority of players have in terms of finding the right balance while still being able to feel strong and enjoy their character, as only a very small fraction even make it to 98. Being tank in PoE means nothing if you don't have good mobility and damage. The only few exceptions to this rule of "Damage, Speed, Tank - pick two" applies to a small minority of meta skills that usually come with some kind of downside relating to QoL, or are prohibitively expensive for 99.9% of players. Ice nova, EA ballista, Armour Stacker etc. Even armour stacker though can get rekt by one mod that has no visual indicator.

[@Lolcohol]

It doesn't do T17s in that form but did juiced T16s in the past and very, very rarely died :) the numbers might looks more impressive to you if you turn on Immortal Call and set the config in the way other KZbinrs do, but then you'd criticise that too lol

[@hrodwulf172]

​@@Lolcohol Look dude, I'm sorry to come off so overly critical, I really do enjoy your content and think you're a good dude. At the same time, I don't really believe this is a great example of a well rounded build that's ready for anything below t17's...I imagine invitation farming would be...uncomfortable to say the least. Gets bopped by any half decent phys hit guard skill or not. Anyway, I just disagree and think you're missing the bigger picture, or at least, if you disagree you don't seem to address it or concede the difficulties the majority of the player base experiences, perfect example of a PoB or ten, or none.. I think if you look at the fact most people cannot even get "close" to max level is a red flag of a massive failure in game design. Getting your passives is one of the most important parts of building your character. Wouldn't you want an environment where completing that is relatively achievable for the majority of players? Right now it's such a opportunity cost for the majority of builds out there that to do so would make the build unplayable-y unfun. All of it comes off a bit contrarian tbh because the stats are very clear about how far players progress in this game. Especially with the twitter posts talking about "skill issue" etc. I have no problems getting to 100. But I can understand why it's difficult for the majority of the playerbase. There are also many, many very good builds that just aren't expected to get to 100 and historically would pay for 5 ways if you wanted 100 or ran beachheads or blight maps etc. Seems like a contradiction in itself to say a good build that cant get to 100. It's not a particularly well thought out point you're making here. Posting a stream clip where you're coming up with random incoherent points listing defensive options pseudo randomly isn't a great way to clarify it imo. Progen is not recovery btw? It's mitigation if anything?

[@Lolcohol]

II played the build twice, it's absolutely viable for farming juiced T16s :) I dunno what to say, the game is hard and requires knowledge to improve at. Its not perfect, but when you try help people and share something, you get "um ackshually'd" in the comments to the point that doing guide content is no longer all that enjoyable anymore 😂 maybe a more thorough version of this that wasn't done live would be more helpful and I'd be curious to see how you'd analyse defences in a broad way too! :)

[@luflagavirallia9659]

The fact that you have a list to discuss is a proof the game has just become too complicated to be enjoyed or maybe my taste has become dull. Great to see people still enjoying it.

[@grimsworld]

hardcore ssf....... no more needs to be said

[@Miss_Willow]

the current tankiest build in the game currently gets one shot by DD in t17s. trancendance armour stacker with 700k max hit taken. i would know as ive sunk 6 mirrors into it. the ceiling for making a tanky build has risen, and our tools to make that build have stayed the same. for many builds the ele flask reduction even nerfed them a bit, for others it was a good change. the final result was polarizing. just saying "play better" when talking about defences is a moot point. if somebody wants to invest all league into making the tankiest character possible and standing in almost everything, they should be allowed to do so. im not saying it should be achievable without investment, it should take a lot of work in order to happen. i do agree with lily that our defencive options have been given more variety, but sadly the damage that monsters do in t17s is currently too high for any build in the game to tank. ubers are a joke compared to t17s, because you cant roll mods on ubers now.

[@Lolcohol]

Yup, T17s have made things very different, and in a very bad way. I fully expect them to be adjusted heavily next league so don't feel that expecting your average character to run them is really fair, unless you are happy with the meta being like 3 builds

[@VincentKun]

I have six portals and 2k deaths

[@brankokrnic5746]

Fairly new to game, played affliction with a SRS necro, it was tons of fun. Defence was not great but minions would take most of it, id just run away. Was dying less then, then now in Necropolis. Im playing tanky myolner heirophant mana stacker. The only thing that will make me leave the map is sadistic touch mod from corupted tempest. Dying is important part of the game that will make you learn mechanics, and once you obercome or learn how to avoid the chalenge. It will feel rewarding. Absolutely a thing that makes POE better game, not worse.

[@whorhaydelfuego7190]

I would agree except that even with a very tanky build I die too fast to know what killed me. Most of the time the screen is so cluttered with stuff that it's impossible to see who or what killed you. Heck I've had at least half a dozen deaths this league where I died with no visible mob or skill affect on screen, and it wasn't reflect because I'm using a minion build and so essentially reflect immune. And that's in T16's, I'm not wasting my time on T17's when it's this ridiculous in T16's already. POB says my EHP is over 700K, Armour is at 90%, resistances are all capped with fire and cold being over 80%, block is at 75% for both attacks and spells, and gobs of instant life leech. I don't have evasion or spell suppress because I'm in the wrong corner of the passive tree. It'd would be fantastic if the game gave you any kind of feedback at all about what is actually dealing damage to you, but it essentially doesn't do that at all.

[@Erdbeerenserver]

I leveled from 80 to 99 with 0 deaths and then on my way to 100 some mob suddenly got me and I don't know why. It was a rather save map 🤣

[@erutherford]

I'd say 80 to 99 clean is pretty darned good. If your attention / focus strays for just a second or two a fluke rare can ruin your day even on a relatively safe map.

[@beware3586]

To a certain degree though the OP has a point. Building layered defense can feel really difficult. You build a lot of armour, evasion and find 150+ life in a tree. Get 75+ to all res and then build layers like endurance charges or fortify and still get popped out of nowhere. I recently build a lightning coil with a divine flesh to try and raise my overall survival. My max phys hit in pop is still only 22k. Im supposed to be able to take a shaper slam but I have gotten absolutely obliterated by a random rare several times. Im pretty confused by it since I seem unkillable 90% of the time and then poof. Where da faq did my HP go? I'm by no means a top tier player. In all honestly I have only made one or two home brew builds that have peaked 1 million damage. But this game shouldn't require my to play full time to understand its mechanics. I cant even say it was a positioning issue as often there is so much happening so fast on screen that I can't see what exactly is killing me. This game has evolved into dash dash explode screen or explode me.

[@adrienneladd8375]

if it takes more than a div to buy the build it isn't budget. i know I suck at this game, but I rarely ever get more than two divs per league with a good 40 hours per league. I know that at least part of this is that I spend too much time trying to level other characters, but there seems to be a huge gap between casual play and any more 'typical' player.

[@lolleonlolable]

i get what he is trying to say, you need crazy defensives these days in poe to be tanky its gotten kinda absurd. a few years back if u had good life and high evasion OR high armour and just 75%res (not even chaos res) you were pretty tanky. now you basicly need high armour AND high evasion AND spell suppression AND element immunity AND 90%res AND crit immunity AND good regen/leech AND some phys to ele AND defiance of desteny AND AND AND AND... and "tanky" on softcore on a build that oneshots everything is somehting completly different than tanky on a rf build on hc i almost died a few times in early red maps this league on my tanky rf chief with 90%res 5k life 2k regen 50k armour -200 flat fire damage taken 40%phys taken as fire // 60%less crit damage taken // shock immune 25%block/spellblock on a defensive atlas tree and easy mapmods. guess im just bad ?..

[@rothleonard]

Explain these issues to us newbies, most if not all build guides assume that they are only talking to other elite players and like 80% of their audience is new players trying to learn lol a lot of need a few hand holding videos about this kind of stuff. Sure do wish somebody takes up the challenge. 😅

[@SmthIcanNvrHave]

Those PoB examples are a joke, those builds are tanky in easy T16 maps. Damage can be pushed to 50x that, it's all about avoiding bad mods.

[@MGMarkov]

he is obviously exagerating, but actually he is kind of right, you literaly cannot do T17 without 100% spell suppress, big phis to ele, ailment imunity and big chaos res 50+ are ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY. Those are not enough though and this is just becoming too much. I have been playing this game for 5 years now and I played it at the very beginning, it just seems that the best defensive layer is play a Bow with a HH and you are done, or just do everything else I mentioned above and die like a dog every T17 map. When I hear Lily speaking about skill issue when I am not even sure how many T17 maps she actually played this is just pathetic. Her life is related to playing this game, I do not think she is some kind of god, she is definitely very good and better than me, but should we balance the game around Ben, exile and Jungro? Lilly will die 2 times on the first t17 map she is not vaaling if she did not invest a ridiculous amount of currency in the character. Skill issue my ass. I was just thinking that the game is in a decent state in 3.23, but the introduction of T17 and pretty much the killing of any uber bossing strategies is just horrible for the game. For first time I am wondering whether to continue bothering with this game that becomes more and more time requiring and being moved towards people that do this for living.

[@YoooWTFwasThat]

They need fix the character sheet; 1 its inaccurate at times, 2 its just not useful outside of looking at % threshold (accuracy res ect). Better tools with more accurate mod descriptions will help dumb dumbs like me not get salty because I died while I had 90% physical reduction. And potentially add a death recap? Just what we died to damage/ability wise. Let us learn from our stupid plz :)

[@janisgrunda568]

This take makes me feel bad cuz the original post dude makes so much more sence. I am playing poe since the beta and I have lived and felt all the game changes through my own skin. Death danger has always been the spice that makes your blood flow and enjoy the grind yet it feels like they have over-spiced it way too much. It feels like they dont know the difference between feelings when u die once or twice a day and the missarable state of mind when u KNOW that u will die like at least twice per map cuz of random shit and two lags.... the game has become idea dumpster with little to no testing and polish - mainly due the poe2 focus switch. Idk maybe this is intendet emotion manipulation to make poe2 look more appalling. Who know...

[@brandenmccarney5065]

Please do the spreadsheet and a video on this. I've joined your discord. Hopefully I can get some info from your lolcoholics.

[@koboldprime2257]

I'm tired of game devs providing so many tools for defense just to have a fuck ton of mechanics that disable, bypass, overwhelm or reflect you to death. It's not a PoE problem is an industry problem.

[@dimitrisfikas7115]

So the first guy converted all phys to elemental had all the defensive layers you can get had 90 max res capped armour capped evasion capped spell supp leech respectable regen a guard skill that he times perfectly never did a build breaking mod and somehow still died in a map? Come on now

[@Tranquilized_]

i do get where he is coming from, if every build has to have these it feels kinda bad but I think that is just how PoE is these days. This is the issue they are trying to fix with PoE 2 so we have more options because we are not getting insta blasted into the shadow realm.

[@SleepyRPGman]

Corrupting blood kills me all the time. Having flasks with immunity to cb are super important.

[@anterand9459]

I have a build that normally costs 24~26 divi and has a dot cap on ubers. On maps you can do it with block cap.

[@CobusGreyling]

I don't disagree with the comment's sentiment, but yeah major exaggeration.

[@Julius-ei7zn]

tbh you need what is described in the post for deep delve, but definetly not normally

[@Loser91915]

dont stand in the shit... awww man that one hurt,,, how do i stand away of this commentary now :P

[@oogieboogie1578]

My 2 div rf chief has 90% ele res with 50~60 phys taken as ele... :/

[@slimbamboo7875]

Bro before u kan do almos imortal bild like fulkrom las legue , but dis legue suks

[@iraney7428]

Defencese in this game has always been an issue for casual players.

[@НикитаКолесников-т7ф]

for ppl who cant spend on game more than 2-3 hour all this in a problem

[@therocklau]

Top players they dislike DD mechanic say it's a fuckery, because you can never see the monster corpse with all the action going on, you can only guess and try to avoid with no certainty, even with the new sound alert all you can do is move "away", you don't even know away from what, just away. Uncertainty is a bitch and I do think that's the poster's main argument, most players don't stream, most players don't have VODs to check how they died, sometimes in POE you die to certain things that can be taken as your fault, if you aren't a block character but run into a pack of porcupines with GMP in a hard map, next time you will have an idea "as melee I prbly should take block or very high armour + res", but now with the new T17s, things happen so fast you almost never knew what killed you, what can you do to not die in the same situation? Logically all you can do is not die to anything, that means what he said, all the correlation defense layers upon layers, that's the only sure thing, it might not need to take that far but he cannot tell where is the standard. Johnason did say something like "if we make players feel they have to do something to succeed, we failed our job" clearly the guy feel like he has no other choice, he might be wrong but he has good reasons.

[@erutherford]

It gets worse when you are a DD varient build yourself and you give the enemies free corpses to pop. Visually my own corpses popping clutters up the screen that I just don't see [slow information processing] the enemy popping a MASSIVE corpse right next to me. If it wasn't for the audio queue I'd have 10X more deaths to DD though ...

[@ArthurDemacqPontoglio]

How far in endgame can you push a 1div build?

[@slimbamboo7875]

Projenis for stremer , mega blot for stremer ... Do i net vrite other ....u like beger lf u are cazoal

[@skulver]

I think the biggest issue with PoE, and one that's amplified many-fold for newer players, is that it's incredibly hard to tell what killed you a lot of the time. It's hard to shore up a defensive weakness when you have no idea what it is. So the problem becomes this vague case of shoring up random defenses and hoping one of the ones you are aware of is the culprit. You can also very easily get stuck trying to make a change, need to use a particular unique but doing so means you suddenly can't cap resists so you're kind of stuck having to build an entirely new gear set, not even knowing if it'll fix the problem, and all the time the problem still persists. I also think streamers to some extent don't help, it's so easy for a new player to see someone playing 24/7 with hundreds of divs worth of gear stomping T17s with a build they call the same thing. The 300 divine Boneshatter build is not the same beast as the under 1 div Boneshatter build that the new player watching the video has a problem with.

[@Lolcohol]

Yeah I'm fully on board with GGG adding at least a text log of what killed you "Killed by Fire Damage" and also by freezing the debuffs present on you when you died. I think the main reason they haven't done the log thing is because they said that there are often many layers of damage and debuffs coming at you and even if say a physical hit is what killed you, there may have been other things that lead up to it and contributed. But yeah, I totally agree that making it clearer what time of damage was being dealt would be great.

[@romance_ch]

At the end of the day, Path of Exile is a game about problem-solving. If a player doesn't want to put in the effort to learn and overcome increasingly difficult obstacles, then they shouldn't be rewarded. Simple as that. Everything in this game is achievable with enough knowledge and skill, that is proven. The SC trade mentality of FOMO and entitlement is just lame.

[@Lolcohol]

Very well said! I agree

[@joshuahensley9395]

2 videos ago Hardcore is too easy, and I'm like guy have you been in a t17 And here it is lmao

[@Lolcohol]

😂agreed, tier 17s are SO badly balanced. And I wasn't serious about Hardcore being too easy - that was a bit of a joke :)

[@KineticCode]

Hi i go bonezone i have none of the stuff the guy in the reddit post i just rip it and scream yolo and pray to the shrine of carn every night. Am able to take down all pinnacles(not uber yet) in hc. Defense doesnt matter if you're a chad melee slayer looking for a good time tbh tbh

[@Lolcohol]

Hell yeah. You're playing the right way

[@karbehemoth]

All I need is death log to analyze what I've miss. That's the problem Also, complaining with pathfinder view is not fair Lolcohol

[@Lolcohol]

Haha you're right. Pathfinder really makes it pretty easy to get nicely defensive compared to something like Elementalist A basic death log would be great - even if it was something like "Killing Blow: Chaos Damage" like Last Epoch has, would be very helpful

[@macadaymo9226]

Can I have the spreadsheet pls xx

[@n8doggy733]

CI occ can be very tanky

[@jamiebaird9331]

Its true shits crazy

[@therat3028]

It was a good Ted talk though.

[@Alex__Zotov]

I suppose he meant exactly t17. I'm having difficulties too with t17. I spent 70-100 chaos to roll each t17. Have 2 chars - mapper MF LA (about 2 mirrors invest) and Hexblast bosser (about 2,5 mirrors invest). And both have troubles with beating mobs on t17. I can't kill some mobs on hexblast with several billion dps. Such as migistrate hounted, union of souls. The "tankiest" LA can't DPS enough, the powerful Hexblast can't stand for a second to throw mines constatly, cause it's die at moment. Make some video with discussing t17. It's so big issue, in t17 map i die like i am in items i found on floor, and on t16 i am deathless and killing everything in 1 second

[@Inhierritor]

I believe the point he is trying to make about uniques is the fact that for the past few leagues it is the same uniques being used over and over again. Most of the time other pieces can't even come close to the stats that some of these uniques have and so by default players feel required to use them. Which sucks because there are some really cool skills out there, but because they don't perform to the ability that some of the other abilities do and with the fact that gearing is usually limited, naturally you just don't play those skills.

[@lenelie3051]

What in the world is Lolcohol fingerbanging in the beginning of this vid?

[@Lolcohol]

😂 I saw that too and I'm not sure. The only thing I can think of is that I was massaging my one finger that usually hurts when I play a lot

[@Maxtraxv3]

bad take, 85% armour 79% all res 75% chos res, 76% evation, 100% spell suppress, still if i get hit by a rare i die. the fuck are ment to get to red maps?

[@Lolcohol]

Do you have like 1000 life or something

[@erutherford]

Honestly that combination is pretty thin in terms of defenses IF you are getting hit -- at least if you're being hit often and by the wrong sort of things. DoTs can do you in very quickly. Flurries of hits, missing a telegraphed slam that crits, etc. are all ways to go down quickly.

[@erutherford]

@@Lolcohol Devil's Advocate: I suspect you are good enough at the game not to put yourself into a bad position. For casuals like me that are not as situationally aware as you are we need to build up 4X the "max hit/EHP" of players like yourself to feel "reasonably resilient". I'd be willing to bet your build [run by you] kills vastly faster with much fewer deaths than my build [run by me].

[@Lolcohol]

Yeah I think that actual game mechanics and player input actually matters a lot more than people think! Just being aware of what's happening and what mods are on a monster you're facing make a big difference

[@martins2246]

at 50 years old, I can sleep through t16s and get my 2 void stones...and then that is it. I wonder if it is my skill...I had the same feeling about MOBAs 10 years ago...is this what getting old is? I got...lol...one more season in me to try and get 4 void stones...uber elder and all of that if my ziz EA doesn't pan out this season. Grind it up!!!! But it is probably my skill.

[@erutherford]

I'm there with you. I started in 3.13 and didn't have any real problems getting ALL of my watchstones. All was fine until 3.17 (?) when you had to kill Maven for the voidstone. Eventually I figured out how to build characters that could tank the memory game, had enough recovery to keep degen pools nicely managed, and could survive long enough without recovery to eventually kill Maven. With recent changes though I don't see a "cheap" way to nullify the mechanics and I'm simply not mechanically sound enough to keep everything managed properly ... I've just resigned myself to paying for a carry service so I can skip the need of doing it myself ... which isn't particularly satisfying.

[@martins2246]

@@erutherford yeah...I hate trade because I know I can rock the market if I focus on it...that is what killed WoW for me. Took a break, came back focused on the market .... after a few months I snapped when I realized I was just checking in 2-3 times a day to run through some spreadsheets. I think 2 stone ssf is my destiny.

[@moreget5991]

Don't make it so complicated it's about the feels of the game it doesn't feel like it completes you. It just doesn't make you smile and enjoy doing it anymore. Simple example when you open the fridge and its full of food but yet you say nnnaaaahhh there's nothing or its too much of a chore or something like that. So, you order take out but WTF you notice that there is a trash can just as big as the fridge full of trash and now you're eating while smelling all that trash LOL. It makes you quit eating all together LOL. Maybe someone understands this feels LOL.

[@Lolcohol]

I'm not sure what I just read but I think you might have reached enlightenment or something

[@moreget5991]

Here's more enlightenment you also have a landlord that keeps coming into your house and eating and moving your stuff around (nerfing). Not sure why they keep nerfing builds I mean I can only play a build for so much then I will nerf it myself and stop playing it. I don't need GG to nerf it I will do it when I'm ready LOL.@@Lolcohol

[@paul5317]

My spirit was crushed last night. Softcore SSF killed Sirus for the first time in a year, and maybe first time ever as self cast, so I was feeling good He just melted so fast. I have 15k phys ehp, 40k ele ehp. So let's try and get the extra slot from T17. Got crushed by ghosted boss in map 1. That was a boss so ok. Got blasted by a rare goatman in map 2. That crushed me. Time for a break :) My skill level is about as bad as you can get but knowledge is fair. The game is weird with rares being so much harder than bosses.

[@Lolcohol]

Yeah the balance is super off, especially in T17s. Hopefully the get the balance right but as they are now, I don't want them in the game

[@erutherford]

I agree but that's the nature of the game unfortunately :( .... Early in progression [esp. in SSF] there's not way that your build can do everything on all mods. If you are like me and are not mechanically sound then you're in deep trouble.

[@hoboinatux4109]

Def more

[@justjay3750]

dots are what i struggle with, and i play a witch lmao.

[@Lolcohol]

Yeah that's an issue of passive recovery and it's very hard to solve on life-based witch build :(

[@danieldondo2818]

I have an 84k EHP occultist hexblast miner running a fourth vow divine flesh set up with the delve helmet mod as well, recently swapped determination for zealotry and I’m clearing t17s with 3500 armour 😂 this game is fuckin ez pz

[@Lolcohol]

Legend! Would love to see the PoB - can you DM it to me on Discord?

[@danieldondo2818]

Sure thing I’m in the LA discord where do you want me to send it

[@danieldondo2818]

I tagged you in the build discussion channel with 2 versions

[@akarti813]

Doesn't help alot of the starter builds can't even do red maps.

[@erutherford]

No offense but I think you're using TERRIBLE starter builds OR you're using a niche build [sanctum runner for example] to do things that it's not meant to do. Any starter should be able to at least somewhat comfortably run Alch & Go T16 maps with the allowance that you may need to reroll maps with bad mods. The gotcha is now the game is gate-kept (?) on things like T17 completion for map device slot, killing all pinnacles for voidstones [Maven is my kryptonite -- I know what to do but fail mechanically to do so], and a lot of the "really good" farming behind Ubers & T17s, etc...

[@akarti813]

@@erutherford well I've tried a lot of these you tube starter builds that they recommend and i haven't found one that could do red maps comfortably. Its either not enough dps or not enough defense to even survive.

[@WiecznieNieNasycony]

where you have tha 6 link quivers? ggg will find it soon)

[@Lolcohol]

I didn't make any because it was a very obvious exploit:)

[@WiecznieNieNasycony]

@@Lolcohol don't lie, I see that you have it hidden from ggg))

[@Barshrock]

The thing i personally think most people miss is to STUN / FREEZE enemies. These two mechanics are insanely good for mapping (even on the high end) because you zero the chance of enemies hitting you. Of course these dont apply to bossing tho.