Discussion with Dustin - An Excommunicated Former Member

[@SimonDaumMusic]

You are really doing a great work, thanks for that Travis.. I read books and engaged with all sorts of academia during the past years and from my experience you have some of the best content when it comes to LDS and biblicals data.. I would love to engage in more discussions with those presenting the faith in wrong ways, but up here in Germany there is no apologia around like in Utah :) . Anyways, your content is highly valued.

[@Idk40003]

I don’t have a shelf. I have a pantry. And every 10 minutes I look inside and, like a middle class US teen, feel like there’s nothing to eat.

[@danielburns4483]

Perfect analogy. me too

[@sjstlaurent]

😂

[@furtherlightandknowledge]

I feel so sorry for this dude. He shut down because it was easily shown that his logic is incoherent. I think that the spirit was present during this conversation. He still has a little tiny intsy wintsy bit of light left in him. The spark is not totally gone. I hope it was ignited.

[@joeriv4151]

Another win for Pirate Travis! This time by exhausting his opponent! I saw a pirate movie the other day and it was rated ARRRRR! In all honesty I feel for the guy. I was inactive for ten years and God pulled me back in. I got to baptize my wife and now get to raise my kids in the Church. I have both spiritual, logical, and pragmatic reasons for coming back and I’m staying for good.

[@batboy12394]

I heard some interesting perspectives recently about the discussion at 1:40:00. As a church, we typically call the president of the church "the prophet". Yet for a long time, if you had said "the Prophet" people would assume that you were talking about Joseph Smith. It only became common to call the president "the prophet" around the time of David O. Mckay if I remember right. The presidents are just that: the apostle chosen to preside over the church. I think Travis's explanation about authority is very important to understand. Thanks for posting this.

[@My_Personal_Taste]

Your greatest ability is simply outlasting them

[@leroythomas1850]

On behalf of everyone Thank you Travis

[@cameronvantassell9483]

If you ever wondered what the "mists of darkness" were, this guy is exhibit A

[@ClintK.]

Appreciate the content you show through these individuals that have fallen so far from the light they once held.

[@germanslice]

Those who are Foolish always seem to focus on Controversial Subjects of Church History of over 100 years ago of Early Church to Argue against the Church Leaders and are out of date with the Lord by over 100 years but we dont' have 20 or 100 years. There's only time to convert to the Lord on the covenant path, fill our lamps with oil Not time to argue about whether we should stay on the covenant path or not. But as the Lord said The foolish only took just only the oil that was in their own lamps while the wise took extra oil along with them. What extra oil did the wise take with them Oil of Daily repentance that the prophet provided. And that was the mistake that this guy had made and why hes no longer in the Church. His lamp had run out of oil because he got involved in controversial subjects instead of because of listening to Activists instead of staying on the covenant path.

[@LeoMichalek]

Not everyone can have super long conversations.. 2 hours is tough.. Kudos to Dustin for doing his best to have a good conversation. Kudos to Travis for always being consistent and logical. My brain wouldn't last very long if I ever had to go up against Travis.. but we all should be.. we should all be asking these questions and thinking like this more often.. to make sure we are clear on what we say.. what others say.. and what we are reading and what the text says.. and what we are adding to it. Then also be clear of what our actual beliefs are. Like a Prophet is there to instruct, Correct and Lead. That may mean he may correct things he's said/mandated in the past.

[@gbengoosewuru4139]

1:41:30 This verse from D&C 58 came to mind. 26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

[@brannonburton5494]

Certain personality traits and cognitive styles are linked to a higher likelihood of conspiratorial thinking and exaggeration. Here are some key personality and cognitive traits commonly associated with these tendencies: 1. High Trait Suspiciousness: People who are naturally suspicious or distrustful tend to be more prone to conspiracy theories, as they are more likely to question official accounts and assume hidden motives. 2. High Openness to Experience: While generally a positive trait associated with creativity, high openness can sometimes lead to a willingness to entertain unusual or fringe ideas, including conspiracy theories. 3. High Narcissism: Individuals with narcissistic tendencies may gravitate toward conspiracy theories because these theories can align with their need for a sense of superiority or special insight, setting them apart from others. 4. Low Agreeableness: People with lower levels of agreeableness are often more skeptical of others’ intentions and may be more likely to believe in sinister motives and hidden agendas. 5. Need for Uniqueness: Some individuals are drawn to conspiracy theories because they offer a sense of exclusive knowledge. A need to feel unique can lead them to adopt views that differentiate them from the mainstream. 6. High Emotional Reactivity: Conspiracy theories can provide emotionally charged explanations for complex issues. People who are more reactive may seek out conspiratorial explanations as a way to make sense of their intense emotions. 7. Intolerance of Uncertainty: Conspiracy theories often provide simplified explanations for complex or ambiguous events, offering a sense of closure. Individuals who struggle with uncertainty may be drawn to these theories to feel more in control. 8. Machiavellianism: This trait, characterized by manipulation and a cynical view of human nature, can make individuals more prone to suspect that others are manipulating or deceiving them, a mindset that aligns well with conspiratorial beliefs. 9. Paranoid Thinking: A tendency toward paranoia or seeing patterns where there may not be any can make people more susceptible to conspiracy theories, as they may be more likely to connect unrelated events. These traits do not guarantee conspiratorial thinking but are risk factors associated with a greater likelihood of entertaining or adopting conspiracy theories.

[@sean9854]

There have been countless “conspiracy theories “ that have been proven true, and I would dare say many of our Prophets have been conspiracy theorists. The problem is believing in them without any empirical evidence and not trusting in authoritative sources

[@TheGreatVonBron]

See, that’s what they WANT you to think!

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

Travis' discussions are always fascinating psychological case studies.

[@clayb00g]

“Its authoritative because I believe it is”

[@harambeboy]

Always a pleasant discussion

[@DannyAGray]

The very end has me dead. 😅😅😅 "I'm done. I'm so done." 😅😅😅😂😂😂😂

[@danvogel6802]

Dustin, Joseph Smith was a polygamist. You have been confused by some people who are confused themselves. They are not historians. Listen to the historians, they know better. They don't always agree, but on this matter they agree. Pushback to their nonsense is just beginning. I recommend Mark Tensmeyer's essay in the new book Secret Covenants by Cheryl Bruno. Good luck.

[@MrFishwalker]

"Trust the experts".... said God never. ;)

[@danvogel6802]

@@MrFishwalker He never said don't trust the experts either. Moreover, the experts never said TRUST them either.

[@MrFishwalker]

@@danvogel6802 But... what the LDS leaders do teach is that they can "never lead you astray." In fact, Nelson was blunt about this idea of trust. He said you can trust him "completely", and this after the huge covid debacle.

[@MrFishwalker]

The one thing I am sure of is there is no record of Joseph promoting the practice on record, in public, while he was alive. But what you can find are dozens of instances where he condemned it or exxed people for practicing it. Either Joseph was an honest man or one of the greatest religious hypocrites in recorded history.

[@danvogel6802]

@@MrFishwalker I'm only a historian and deal with historical issues such as we are discussing here.

[@DynamicGracer]

This perspective-that Joseph Smith was against polygamy and that Brigham Young introduced or expanded it-has been held by some groups, particularly among those who broke off from the main body of the LDS Church, such as the Community of Christ (formerly the RLDS Church) and certain other Mormon fundamentalist or restorationist groups. They argue that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy and that Brigham Young and his successors promoted it after Smith’s death. Here’s a look at the historical complexity surrounding this issue: Historical Records: The official history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) maintains that Joseph Smith did introduce and practice polygamy secretly in Nauvoo, Illinois, with evidence in the form of affidavits and testimonies from several women who reported being sealed to him. The LDS Church has published several statements and records, including documents in The Joseph Smith Papers, that support this narrative. Contemporary Opposition: Some early Latter-day Saints, including prominent figures like Joseph Smith’s wife Emma Smith and their son Joseph Smith III, strongly opposed the practice of polygamy. Emma’s opposition is well-documented, and after Joseph Smith’s death, she supported the formation of the RLDS Church (now Community of Christ), which rejected polygamy and held that Brigham Young was responsible for introducing the practice. Differing Accounts: Some groups and historians argue that there’s insufficient evidence to prove that Joseph Smith actually practiced polygamy. They point to the lack of clear documentation directly from Joseph himself explicitly endorsing the practice, asserting that the records were manipulated or that later testimonies were unreliable. However, this view is considered a minority opinion among historians of Mormonism. Doctrine and Covenants Section 132: The LDS Church attributes Section 132, which outlines the doctrine of eternal and plural marriage, to Joseph Smith. This section was only publicly recorded and presented during Brigham Young’s presidency, leading some to argue that Young took a private doctrine and expanded it, while others view it as a record of Joseph Smith’s teachings. Legacy of Polygamy: Polygamy became a defining characteristic of 19th-century LDS Church practice, especially under Brigham Young’s leadership. Following Joseph Smith’s death in 1844, Brigham Young and other church leaders openly practiced and defended polygamy, and it remained an accepted practice until the church officially discontinued it in 1890. This complex issue is often interpreted differently across various branches of the Latter-day Saint movement. It touches on questions about Joseph Smith’s role, Brigham Young’s leadership, and the historical and doctrinal evolution within the LDS tradition.

[@savsmaster4183]

Which historians argue there is insufficient evidence? It’s overwhelming, to the point that the RLDS church even admitted that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. There aren’t just affidavits from the women, but evidence from non-Brighamites such as Sidney Rigdon. The 3 witnesses of the BoM also affirmed that Joseph practiced plural marriage, Oliver Cowdery when he rejoined the Church, joined Brighamite church. As for Emma Smith, she was likely in denial due to the trauma of having her husband assassinated.

[@MrFishwalker]

Answer me this, can polygamy ever work in a Zion-like society? It is simple math. When few men take many women, you create a society of bachelors. It's inevitable. Every FLDS group (and even the early LDS church) faced this challenge. There's no way around it. The practice of polygamy thwarts the efforts of some young men to fulfill one of the first commandments given to Adam and Eve, that of multiplying and replenishing the earth.

[@savsmaster4183]

Since I can’t see my original reply, yes there are complex reasons why people have these views. Though I don’t think there are any historians that deny the historicity of Joseph Smith’s practice of plural marriage.

[@thereluctantwatchman]

@@savsmaster4183 The reason "historians" often believe Joseph did is because they have to rely solely upon second-hand accounts. There are dozens of first-hand accounts from Joseph, Hyrum, and Emma condemning the practice while alive, in public. Either they didn't teach and practice it, or they were some of the more horrendous charlatans and liars in the known religious world.

[@thereluctantwatchman]

btw, who is deleting comments? YT is such an awful place for authenticity and transparency. Other comments on here were removed.

[@clayb00g]

“Who’s your authority?” “Denver Snuffer…”

[@nateryan3610]

@missionarydiscussions1286 Thanks Travis! I know you sacrifice a lot of time for these videos and I appreciate each one. Clearly you have quite a few banked (this one occuring when President Nelson was 97). If you ever have the time to do a short few minute video expounding on the topic you touched on with Dustin about the dichotomy of following the Prophet the counsel given to take the vaccine, it could help a lot of people. It isnt testimony breaking for me, but i've engaged with several former memebers and non-members for whom it is a stumbling block and I have struggled to articulate a logical argument. Clearly this is something that you have thought through and reached a conclusion. Anyway, thanks again for the video!

[@kobidog4432]

Thanks Travis

[@danvogel6802]

Dustin, why did you quote from the Clayton journal to establish the 12 were living polygamy and not quote where he writes on 26 May 1843 that Hyrum accepted the doctrine of the priesthood (polygamy), as well as other passages mentioning Joseph Smith living polygamy? Hyrum read the revelation (D&C 132) to the high council on 12 April 1843, and six of the council let accounts of that, including president Marks who rejected polygamy and joined the RLDS church. You make a huge assumption that JS couldn't contradict himself, therefore JS couldn't be the author of D&C 132. All humans contradict themselves or hold inconsistent ideas, including prophets. The BofM teaches against secret combinations and secret signs and words, yet he joined Masonry and instituted the endowment. His theology of the Godhead developed over time. Historians call using the assumption that historical figures didn't do something because it would contradict earlier beliefs the Idealist Fallacy. Your claim that Smith and Cowdery never said anything about the Kirtland temple appearances therefore they didn't happen is an argument from silence. These arguments are all used by the polygamy deniers and their are poorly thought out and fallacious.

[@williamfarnbach9028]

I am struggling to understand why D&C 5 is authoritative, but Smith's role is only bringing forth the Book of Mormon.

[@missionarydiscussions1286]

@@williamfarnbach9028 You aren't alone.

[@kobidog4432]

Now I can see why he was excommunicated 🤦. Very stubborn dude

[@alejandrovalenzuela377]

Travis “you see… X” Dustin “so you’re saying Y” Travis *Am I speaking Chinese?*

[@allandrone330]

Poor guy is so lost. He thinks he knows more than he actually does. There were several times he just avoided answering questions altogether, I could tell that he was uncomfortable at times.

[@ErnieGomez12]

The chapter in Jacob gives room for an exception Jacob 2 : 30 30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

[@boltrooktwo]

There has to be a point in someone’s reasoning where they make themselves an authority on morality and truth over others, it’s always interesting to me that people are easily convinced that it would be advantageous for them to be the authority on faith and moral action instead of someone else who has a far better claim than them. They cherry pick and build themselves a case and imagine that it is unassailable when in reality they have no supporting evidence they have authority to general revelation for all the churches at all.

[@Idk40003]

59:01 it doesn’t matter does it? Joseph gave several revelations speaking on the Melchizedek priesthood. Section 84, 107, 20 etc. and one of his best sermons besides KDF is on Hebrews chapter 6-7

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

Jacob, son of Lehi is addressing a radically different cultural circumstance than the mid-19th century USA. In Jacob's time, the population was so small that to begin any kind of polygamy would have destroyed the social cohesion of such a tight-knit, mutually independent group. Getting everyone married in monogamous relationships without incest would have been challenging enough. Even if they were surrounded by native peoples not mentioned in the text, there would have been the Mosaic prohibition against marrying outside the covenant. It was a completely different circumstance than the growing Church in frontier North America in the 19th century. And Jacob telling them something that modern revelation "contradicts" follows the same pattern between the Book of Mormon and modern revelation concerning life after death. The Book of Mormon shows patterns of how revelation works: it's pragmatic, geared to the needs and level of understanding of its audience. It's so frustrating to watch people attach emotionally to a simplistic moral notion and turn their brains off about this. This video is a fascinating cautionary tale against men allowing themselves to submit to feminist affective reality.

[@ColtonJPrice]

26:47 His entire claim makes no sense. The George Q Cannon quote has nothing whatsoever to do with how women were viewed by leaders of the church in the 1800s. If anything, it has to do with how George Cannon viewed the sacrament, and his view might actually be consistent with the view of the sacrament held by some church leaders today.

[@sean9854]

The Gospel Gatsby strikes again

[@GldnClaw]

Hey Travis, can we talk? I've got a disability that genuinely affects my ability to abstract some info, track multiple concepts simultaneously and remember some things, but I am an active, faithful member and really want to have clear understanding of the basics as a groundwork. Is that a reasonable trade-off?

[@Bitzaloid]

If you are willing, I'd be glad to take some time. Not sure how to pass along contact info safely through youtube, however.

[@BenjaminDAguero]

This guy is the Simone Biles of mental gymnastics

[@dennygreen322]

Mormon Protestantism seems like an oxymoron but unfortunately it is not. Polygamy deniers are one of the gateways to Mormon Protestantism.

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

And it gets really absurd really fast. I had an exchange online with a guy who refused to accept that Christ requires us to enter a covenant as part of our baptism, because of his rigid interpretation of 3 Nephi 11.

[@DannyAGray]

This bro listens to way too much Michelle Stone

[@therisingknighttruewarrior4551]

Yuuup

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

I can tell by his... shall I say, "whipped" personality.

[@FaithofAbinadi]

As often the case, many will lean unto their own understanding and not the Lord or his Prophets. It’s interesting that Travis cooked his brain with reality.

[@LeoMichalek]

Is that David Snell from Keystone?

[@missionarydiscussions1286]

@@LeoMichalek ha.

[@sarahallen6309]

His polygamy denial evidence is so wildly inaccurate and out of context that it hurts my brain. And I honestly don't have a shelf. I have some unanswered questions, but none of them would damage my testimony, regardless of the answer.

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

Hi! Good to see you here. I admire your work.

[@TyleRMatin6532]

Guy got himself in a mental jiu jitsu match and tapped out 😂. Took him deeper than he had ever been attempting to explain and connect his logical reasoning for believing what he does only to realize he cherry picked his current beliefs from other sources he currently disparages.

[@Lifebertarian]

Travis: asks question Dude: "Let's go to .... " Tell me you are protestant without telling me you are a protestant.

[@nealljones]

Joseph was a polygamist. He lost me there as a serious seeker.

[@C.anthony80]

So, did you scrap the Bible as well?

[@thekolobsociety]

brutal ending. poor guy.

[@mleszyn]

Wait, the argument is that the only gift God gave Joseph was to translate the BoM? Then how was Joseph receiving this "authoritative" D&C revelation through the urimm and thummim when it didn't relate to translating the BoM? Am I crazy or is the logic there self-defeating?

[@missionarydiscussions1286]

@@mleszyn, well ... the U&T was a magical conduit ..... er something.

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

@@missionarydiscussions1286 It was a compact supercomputer with a nanotech fusion battery with a 10,000 year shelf life...

[@bambie1830]

Also Utah had the loosest divorce laws in country at the time

[@ranzelganzon850]

Travis, these kinds of members who left the church are just arguing to find validation of their false belief! 😊

[@therisingknighttruewarrior4551]

Round and around we go. Polygamy deniers are a different breed

[@savsmaster4183]

This video is blowing up wow

[@dr.downsyndrome1844]

The Abraham taking Hagar as his wife was clearly planned and allowed by God. Abraham was promised seed numbered among the stars and the dust of the earth in Genesis 13:16 and Genesis 15:5. Genesis 16:10 the angel of the Lord promises that Hagar's seed would be multiplied exceedingly that it couldn't be numbered. God plagues the pharaoh for sleeping with Sarai even though Abraham lied to the Pharaoh to get him to sleep with his wife, so I'm sure if God had a problem with the polygamy present among many of the Old Testament prophets he would have said something against it or punished them for it.

[@jeffreybernson7978]

Dustin .. this guy is RIGHT ON POLYGSMY

[@DannyAGray]

Which guy is right?

[@jeffreybernson7978]

@ the guy that’s excommunicated.. Joseph smith never practiced D&C 132 is very clear … I have never understood the controversy!!

[@DannyAGray]

@jeffreybernson7978 yeah, it's clear that you don't understand. You should probably work on that.

[@jeffreybernson7978]

@ read the scriptures .. all the answers

[@jeffreybernson7978]

@ you have to know the story of Abraham to know what it says .. maybe start there

[@joelblessing1532]

Dustin you did great thanks for exposing Travis. He has his own Mormonism, awesome that you are so calm about it.

[@DannyAGray]

TF are you talking about? Dustin is as spacy as Joe Biden

[@thekalechipsvendetta]

Bummer dude. Wouldn’t stand in his own argument to defend his point to the end. Like the ship getting destroyed around the captain in Pirates of the Caribbean.

[@dillydally57]

Travis, I came across your podcast just by chance. I did not feel the Spirit. What I felt was contention. We cannot win the hearts and minds of our brothers and sisters on this earth with gotcha comments and questions based on our own prideful knowledge or belief. Trying to catch someone in their owns words to prove them to be wrong is not teaching the Saviors way. We would make much more meaningful progress by listening and understanding concerns, then with love not pride address them. For example, you could validate that the practice of polygamy is a concern for many in the church, then address it with compassion. Your Brother in the Gospel, Dale

[@missionarydiscussions1286]

@dillydally57 Your opinion is noted, but I'll continue to be myself. Thanks.

[@dillydally57]

Good enough, thank you

[@danielburns4483]

I think Travis does really well with sharing his particular talent- I’ve learned an enormous amount by being able to watch serious, no nonsense (at least from Travis’ end) discourse. And I think that’s more the point, for faithful members to watch and learn more. It’s clear many of these people have already made up their mind, and the genuine missionary approach is no longer doing the trick. When people are genuinely receptive he really does, at least from my perspective, approach things in a Christlike way. We all have our own strengths and weaknesses to bring to the table.

[@DannyAGray]

Respectfully, I think you're missing the point (not that I'm trying to speak for Travis in any way). Validating someone's commends doesn't change the fact that their concern stems from a false belief, or that they haven't thought their position all the way through. I, too, came across this channel by accident, and what I've learned is that most people don't really know what they believe or why they believe it other than that they've been told to, and they like to parrot the same talking points over and over again. I think Travis does a great job in showing men their weakness[es] and getting them to actually think about why they hold their positions. Most people, as you may have already noticed, end up in a huffy mood, or being belligerent, or saying, "we'll agree to disagree," showing that they're not serious about seeing past their own nose this is not Travis's fault; most people struggle with humility when they're wrong; but you'll notice there are videos where people actually ask questions, and Travis is fun and friendly and having a good laugh. The teddy bear approach just doesn't work as cleanly as you think it does.