Reaction: What these pastors get wrong about Joseph Smith

[@HelloSaints]

Thank you for being intellectually honest and reasonable... and respectful... unlike what my pastor colleagues are doing with their street thing. sigh... You're the man, David Snell.

[@keystonelds]

Thanks for setting a better example my friend!

[@spideyN8R]

I feel like they need to talk to you before talking about our Church. You actually have a good understanding of what we believe while still not of our faith.

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

​@@spideyN8R I think they should read the Book of Mormon, sincerely pray to the God of their Bible to know whether it's true before they can talk about our Church. It is the keystone to our religion and most if not all don't even afford it that much.

[@stephensmith9665]

I think you need to remind your friends about that little thing called bearing false witness, or is that ok in the modern Christian world?

[@kaduyantv2857]

Matthew 7 :1-5 " Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." This is the reason why non latter day saints who called themselves Christian, are also known as modern day hypocrites. Jesus warn us not to judge unjustly. Yet, this Evangelicals who profess to know Christ, never knew Christ by way they act.

[@RyanMercer]

It feels like he watched South Park and Godmakers then stood in a public space rambling.

[@billthecat22]

Cliff was correct.

[@WatchingwaitingG2D]

@billthecat22 hey haven't you figured out how to use toilet paper properly yet, little girl?

[@HankHartley-j8q]

@@WatchingwaitingG2Dnaaa😂

[@WatchingwaitingG2D]

@@HankHartley-j8q move along pretender.

[@HankHartley-j8q]

@@WatchingwaitingG2D pretend what

[@loganbagley7822]

When I hear phrases like "magic underwear" and "getting your own planet," it's hard for me to believe these people are acting in good faith.

[@mikehemmelgarn9230]

Realize, that one of the major teachings of the church was that we would become Gods and receive our own planet(s). This seems to not be taught these days in the church, but was a major selling point in the church just 20 years ago. I think talk of this was pulled when it became apparent that it seemed “weird” among mainstream christianity

[@4verage417]

@@mikehemmelgarn9230 So you just remove things because it's not reaching your audience the way you want it to?

[@mikehemmelgarn9230]

⁠@@4verage417yes! Just like changes in the temple ceremony when they become socially inappropriate, allow blacks in the priesthood when the pressure is on, and on and on and on. You also don’t hear much about the importance of food storage any more. It used to be hugeeee!

[@roublerattv3793]

what happened to "god was just like us" and we can become like him one day??

[@mikehemmelgarn9230]

@@roublerattv3793exactly!!! That used to be a huge selling proposition of the church. “As man is, God once was, as God is, man may become”. This was taught from the pulpit, now it’s been all but discarded!!!

[@DKWalser]

With regard to the 'magical underwear' insult (it is an insult, let's not dress it up in nicer clothes), I wonder how these good people would feel if a Buddhist or an atheist were make fun of the crosses so many of them wear. I'm sure they would consider such remarks to be totally out of bounds. Similarly, I doubt any of them would openly make fun of a man wearing a Jewish Kippah (yarmlke). Nor would they make fun of a Hassidic Jew's traditional religious clothing. They wouldn't make fun of Jewish clothing because they know it would make them seem bigoted. Making fun of our temple garments just puts their bigotry on display.

[@gwengold8154]

Amen! It's bigotry, plain and simple.

[@dinocollins720]

facts!!!

[@anonymouslife3777]

Nobody insults the special jews, bankers, financiers and powerful ones, so loved by all the world. But all the atheists and apostates target saints, proof that we have the true gospel.

[@gwengold8154]

@@DKWalser absolutely!

[@clontstable1]

So…The Levite Priests wore “magical underwear?” These terms for temple garments are not only insulting, but very childish.

[@kheori]

Why do people consider it such an apostate idea that God would visit ALL the nations of his children? Why wouldn't God consider one soul to be as precious as another? Every time I hear pastors and the like speak about our church, I rarely, if ever, see them actually quote our doctrine whether it be from the Book of Mormon, or other standard works, or from conference talks. While I appreciate people trying to bring others to the knowledge of Christ, they should do so without disparaging other religions and people who are trying to do the same.

[@brainhunter1000]

That’s because the Book of Mormon 99% of the time agrees with the Bible as interpreted by mainstream Christian’s. And basically agreed 100% when you account for different interpretations. So you can’t really approach it any other way.

[@Joygk2uh]

A traditional Christian reading the Book of Mormon will see it as affirming the Trinity (though seems to tend a bit towards Modalism rather than true Trinitarianism), saying that God is a Spirit (Alma 18), that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Mormon 9:9) and many other things that are direct quotes, or near quotes from the Bible. When I met with the missionaries and read the Book of Mormon I kept seeing "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, which are one God" and telling them that I believed that. The missionaries would say "no, that means one in purpose, not one God." So we're using the same words, but mean different things. Traditional Christians would disagree with the idea that Adam and Eve disobeying God was ultimately for good, but see it as an absolute disaster, resulting in all the sin and suffering in the world today. Many unique Latter Day Saint beliefs are not found in reading of the Book of Mormon, like the idea that God the Father has a physical body, the idea that "As man is God once was, as God is, man may become," three levels of heaven, the pre-existence, the requirement to be married to reach the highest level, etc.

[@Hamann9631]

@@Joygk2uh Kheori was hoping for them to look at all of our scriptures, not just The Book of Mormon. Your post makes no sense because Kheori did not type, "They should only look at The Book of Mormon." They gave so much in accurate in formation there is no way they really tried to understand what we believe.

[@Kaydubbbb]

@@Joygk2uh an informed Christian who has read and understands John 17 will recognize that the apostles are meant to become one in just the same way the the Holy Ghost, the Father, and the Son are one. Unless you think Christ prayed for the 11 remaining apostles to merge into one being numerically, we know the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in purpose. That being said, Christ is referred to as Father for 3 reasons. 1. He created the earth. 2. When we choose Christ and covenant to follow Him, He, our Brother, adopts us as His own having paid the price for us, and 3. Father is a title our Heavenly Father has given to Christ. It is confusing, but that is the answer to the verses you pointed out according to the Church of Jesus Christ.

[@Violenthrust]

That’s because the Book of Mormon is a false document created by Satan to send people to hell. We do not need to quote Hersey to prove our point when we have the Bible. Jesus said beware of false prophets. Mormons don’t believe that God/jesus/holy spirit are on being and believe that they are separate entities. That is heresy and a lie created by Satan. You’re in a cult. Your leaders are lying to you to keep you in a cult. Think for yourself and find the true Jesus.

[@LubricatedHeelys]

This is truly the best response I’ve ever seen to anti. It’s so calm cool and collected. Right to the point and perfectly dismantles dumb arguments we hear all the time. Thank you so much David!

[@hugoimartz]

I have a lot of respect for Cliff and his son; I’ve learned a lot from them. However, I do find it funny that some of the criteria they apply to why they believe in Christ, particularly regarding eyewitnesses, don’t seem to apply to Joseph and the plates. Love your videos, Dave! You’re one of my favorite content creators! Hope to shake your hand one day.

[@jamesmcgaha5166]

Your comparing 3 to 500. You know they said Muhammed also had eye witnesses the difference is the reliability and contradictions. There's no way anyone reads the Bible and walks away thinking they can become a god nor would they find polygamy acceptable

[@hugoimartz]

@@jamesmcgaha5166-Neither does the Book of Mormon say that. Stop regurgitating the same old arguments

[@jamesmcgaha5166]

@@hugoimartz your book of Mormon changes based on who I talk to. You preach your book the same way those who preach Islam. I literally have your book in the mail so I can properly guide your people into the light. I don't want any of you in hell and will fight for you

[@jamesmcgaha5166]

@@hugoimartz the book of Mormons main principle outside of following Christ is that you have the ability to be granted godhood. If you're telling me that's a lie you're just embarrassed hearing it out loud. Tell me exactly what I said was incorrect and I'll directly read from your book with context

[@jamesmcgaha5166]

@@hugoimartz also are you gonna act like Joseph Smith wasn't a polygamist? Then who are fanny alger and louisa beaman.

[@D-Flin]

You are so much more peaceful than Ward Radio when it comes to this 🤣 Great work. Hope to see more of these to come. Your responses are fantastic and well mannered

[@bplionel2]

I don't think Ward Radio was wrong in anything they said about this video, though. Both channels are done with the truth in mind.

[@frenchfriedfish1990]

Ward radio is definitely the chaotic good of LDS channels

[@jonahbarnes5841]

@@frenchfriedfish1990 MUA HA HA HA!

[@michaelbennett7561]

I am not a fan of the style of Ward Radio. At all. I think they do a disservice to the church with their style.

[@bplionel2]

@@michaelbennett7561 WR has a more laid back approach, where there can be conversations, on what is right and what is wrong. David doesn't seem to get along with them, and that's fine. There seems to be some bad blood between SU and Kwaku, which is sad.

[@averyjohnson1248]

One of the things that I think a lot of Christians don't realize is just how much they are relying on faith. And it's not a bad thing that we are relying on faith! I've talked with some of my Christian friends who are not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and some of them justify their belief in Christ and disbelief in Joseph Smith by saying that there is historical evidence of Jesus Christ but none for the Book of Mormon. I often have to point out that there is no archaeological evidence that Jesus was resurrected, or that He performed many of His miracles. As people of faith, we should be looking for evidence and information on our scripture and our religion, but we have to recognize how faith and revelation are ALWAYS a vital aspect.

[@Draegoron]

Well to be fair, the book of Mormon is actually evidence that Christ resurrected! Every Christian realistically should hope it's true. 😂

[@whitebeans7292]

The Book of Abraham was completely fabricated by Joseph Smith, it is actually disprovable as a false translation of the Papyrus he purchased. The Rosetta Stone was not known in Smith’s time, and he didn’t think he would get caught, but he did. On the other hand, the Resurrection correlates with the secular accounts we have from Jesus’s time period. According to Josephus the Jewish Historian and Tacitus the Roman senator, Jesus was said to be resurrected almost immediately after his death according to his followers. Faith can sometimes be had instead of or along side historical accounts, but it can never run contrary to the factual, evidential, and provable truth. Joseph Smith’s stories do so, where the Bible does not.

[@Joygk2uh]

However, there is evidence of the locations in the Bible (we know where Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Nazareth, etc. are). There isn't agreement among Latter Day Saints as to where the "New World" Book of Mormon events took place, and no archeological evidence at this point. We are never going to be able to prove the resurrection from archeology, but there is evidence for Biblical people that existed in history- such as Pontius Pilate, David, many of the kings. Most importantly, there is evidence that the Biblical writings are actually ancient--the Dead Sea Scrolls show us that the Old Testament writings existed *at least* 2000 years ago. The oldest New Testament fragments are 1800 years old. There is no physical evidence that the Book of Mormon existed before it was brought forward by Joseph Smith,. The plates that Joseph Smith had are not available for examination. The Bible has many writers spread out over thousands of years, while all the evidence for what the Book of Mormon says relies on one person. The situations are very different.

[@averyjohnson1248]

@@Joygk2uh Agreed. They are very different situations. My point was simply that faith is always needed. Archaeological evidence will never be able to conclusively prove every aspect of the Gospel. And the archaeological and historical evidence situation is very different with the Book of Mormon as compared to the Bible. However, an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And like David said in the video, the old world and the new world are two very different places. If Book of Mormon sites or artifacts were found, it would be almost impossible to recognize them as evidence for the Book of Mormon. Names like Inca, Aztec, and Maya are just names that we have given them. We don't know what they called themselves. We know surprisingly little about most new world civilizations. With the Book of Mormon, it is important to recognize what we have and what we don't have. The evidence for the Book of Mormon was never reliant on ONLY Joseph Smith. There were many witnesses, both official, and non-official, who saw the Golden Plates and never refuted their testimonies, even after some cut ties with Joseph and even became antagonistic towards him. The Book of Mormon itself is also an amazing piece of evidence. I've looking into many such explanations as to the origins of the Book of Mormon and I've never found a satisfactory explanation for Joseph Smith to have made it up. Additionally, when one studies the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, you recognize very quickly that finding your own evidence and your own witness is a core tenet of the faith. I don't believe in the Book of Mormon because somebody else told me that there is evidence for its existence and records of its creation. I believe in it because I have received revelation from God through His Holy Spirit that the Book of Mormon is true, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is God's church, and that Jesus is the Christ. That is where my faith comes from.

[@WatchingwaitingG2D]

​@Joygk2uh there isn't any evidence that any of the main characters in the Bible existed. Even of Jesus. They say a king or soldier but not one of the Prophets. If not for the Book of Mormon the religious world would be a mess. Even the Jehovah Witnesses began from teachings taken from the LDS church.

[@worldkeyvideo9080]

thanks for the response! I hope we can keep fostering a community of truth without disparaging other faiths.

[@FabianLopez-vj7ye]

finally we see lds influencers taking on these pastors who do mean well but are misled

[@jonathanettinger6970]

I think you're giving undue credit and deference to say they even mean well. It's a deliberate hit piece by at least one of these two.

[@FabianLopez-vj7ye]

@@jonathanettinger6970 fair point. Ward Radio made a good point when they said these people argue with faith when defending christianity l, but then argue like atheists and have a similar rhetoric when it comes to the Lds Church

[@ari3lz3pp]

I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line. There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense. Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days. If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism. Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit. Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25. Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this. Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless. 💖

[@Violenthrust]

You’re in a cult.

[@hollayevladimiroff131]

Christian believe that LDS are mislead, false Jesus, not a good foundation.

[@Rjrdprd]

Hey hows it going! I can't help but leave a comment to let you know what an impact you have made on my life in navigating through my own personal faith crisis which had been influenced by many videos such as the one you are analysing. I have watched some Saints Unscripted videos in the past and your deepened knowledge of the history of the Church debunking these videos is powerful. You and your colleagues are doing so much good for the church in better understanding the many doubts that arise. So from the bottom of my heart, thank you for your due diligence in carrying out the Lord's work and God bless you.

[@DKWalser]

The basic problem with Stuart Knechtle's presentation is his lack of good faith. He makes no attempt to present LDS views in a fair light. He presents horrible facsimiles of LDS teachings. This is worse than straw-manning. He presents as authentic LDS teachings things no member of the Church believes. Not only do Church members NOT believe the things he claims are authentic LDS teachings, they are things most Church members would find repulsive. This is intentional on his part. He is not trying to educate his audience. He's trying to fill them with revulsion toward the LDS church and its members. It may be effective, but it is dishonest.

[@denebuxtoo8944]

These preachers are trying to make sure no one investigates into the LDS religion because they may be scared of losing their members who fund their pay checks. David Alexander calls it, "The Accusatory Fog!" It keeps people in ignorance instead of investigating into what we truly believe! We are not scary people, we are not the occult. Joseph Smith did not have sex with all these women that they think he had. Just look up the DNA testing results of all the children that were born to Fannie Aguilar and all the other women that were polygamist wives. Don Bradley has already done all this research. People need to investigate for themselves what the truth is instead of taking the word of preachers who don't know what they're talking about.

[@scubawrestler]

Because Knechtle is a false prophet.

[@billthecat22]

That Mormonism has built in deniability of "we only follow the words of the living prophet" is convenient. You get to reject doctrines you don't agree with

[@WatchingwaitingG2D]

@@billthecat22 quiet clueless.

[@billthecat22]

@@WatchingwaitingG2D You know it is true. You get to reject the words of dead past presidents and leaders of your church when it's convenient.

[@dwRS1]

The church of Jesus Christ is not based on the Bible. It is based on what the Bible is based on. Revelation through prophets. Which of the many versions of the Bible do these preachers think is correct? They would do well to listen to our modern day prophets. Like in Christ's original church. These preachers are just like the preachers at the time of Joseph Smith.

[@richarner3856]

@@dwRS1 Hebrews 1:1

[@dwRS1]

@@richarner3856 I agree with that scripture. What is your interpretation of Hebrews 1:1?

[@richarner3856]

@dwRS1 prophets were used in the past but God now speaks through his Son

[@dwRS1]

@@richarner3856 I believe that Jesus Christ speaks to all who will listen by the scriptures and modern day prophets just like His original church with Apostles and prophets. That's Biblical.

[@richarner3856]

@dwRS1 do you believe you should earnestly contend for the faith like it says in Jude 3?

[@HUGEchance]

Fair, respectful, intelligently reasoned, interlaced with faith, and persuasive. Great combo!

[@dalecash2236]

Evidence deteriorates very quickly in areas of high vegetation growth compared to the deserts of the old world.

[@alexandertwol]

This is literally not true at all

[@Misa_Susaki]

I'm literally poopy. But anyways surely different climates have SOME effect on artifacts. ​@@alexandertwol

[@Misa_Susaki]

I mean a notebook will break down in a humid area bc it will get wet. A notebook could sit in the sand for 100 years and be fine.

[@BGCflyer]

@@dalecash2236 …so how then do we have all the Mayan artifacts, temples, etc? They lived during the time of the Nephites.

[@dalecash2236]

​@@BGCflyer Obviously, some elements are more durable than others. Cementuous materials tend to be very durable in a variety of climate conditions, whereas other materials may not be so durable. For example, steel will rust away with moisture, whereas other metals are less susceptible to that. Deterioration rates of bio-degradable materials vary a lot based on the environment in which they exist.

[@DigitallySaved]

I am not a member of the church of later day saints. However, I deeply respect that they acknowledge that there are plenty of things that we can not prove. Christianity, in general, will call a person a heretic if they say such things. I believe that we can believe what is in the Bible without necessary proof. Yet, at the same time, I believe that we need to understand that not everything written down happened as mentioned. Sometimes, things were written in a way back then that today we would understand as something very different. The LDS church seems to understand that.

[@keystonelds]

Thanks for this comment! Respect.

[@Yeezus20]

We can't "prove" God exists just as we can "prove" reality exists. What we do have evidence of is the life of Jesus Christ. The Christian religion does not fall apart through an evidence based approach as opposed to the latter-day saints' belief system.

[@ari3lz3pp]

I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line. There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense. Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days. If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism. Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit. Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25. Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this. Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless. 💖

[@jay6562]

If the apostle Paul ever had a modern day twin, it was Joseph Smith. They both spent time in jail for being followers of Jesus Christ and wrote letters from prison that became scripture loved by the Saints!

[@richarner3856]

@@jay6562 Joseph Smith slept with more underage girls

[@gwengold8154]

They do have those two things in common, but I can't get on board with the twin thing. 😊

[@crackshot_cashew9385]

@@jay6562 why was Joseph smith in jail?

[@janellehoward7873]

​@@crackshot_cashew9385Lots of people hated Joseph Smith- many still do in fact- and they made up false charges to try to ruin him. Many people also tried to kill him because of his beliefs and what he claimed to have seen.

[@crackshot_cashew9385]

@@janellehoward7873 what were the false charges if you don’t mind my asking?

[@ileneperry6609]

They also brush past the fact that plural marriage has been practiced in the bible and in many other cultures.

[@BGCflyer]

…yet none of the Apostles practiced polygamy, why is that? Read 1st Timothy in the Bible. It’s clear that all the deacons, elders and bishops are to have no more than one wife. Isn’t your church supposed to be the original church restored? That church never practiced polygamy. Doesn’t the Book of Mormon condemn polygamy as an abomination? If Joseph Smith was an eye witness of Jesus, just like Paul, then why are they so vastly different in their practice of marriage and polygamy?

[@MakeupPearls]

💯

[@ari3lz3pp]

It was not condoned in the Bible. Done, is not the same as okay. Even Jesus says one man and one woman in a marriage and that Jesus is to love and serve her as he loves the church. She obviously is also to love and serve him with all her heart as her own flesh. I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line. There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense. Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days. If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism. Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit. Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25. Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this. Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless. 💖

[@BGCflyer]

@@ari3lz3pp ...very interesting

[@henricopter.]

@@BGCflyer We believe single marriage is the normal standard. The people in the bible would have had only one wife if God didn't tell them to have multiple. same goes for the latter-day saints. We believe God told us to have multiple wives for a time. Why? no one knows but God. We don't know why God commanded us to do these things. But He did. None of the apostles practiced polygamy because God didn't tell them to. Yes. we we believe we are the original church restored. "That church never practiced polygamy" -- because God never told them to. He did in the Bible though. It doesn't matter what God commanded people to do in the past, it matters what He commands us to do today. Don't take that the wrong way -- i mean at different time periods, God will command us to do different things. For example, He instituted the Law of Moses. We don't practice the Law of Moses anymore. But God commanded the Israelites to practice it, so they did. If I was an Israelite at that time period I would have practiced the Law of Moses too. Because it was what God commanded them to do. He doesn't command us to do it anymore though, so we don't. The book of mormon condemns having multiple wives and concubines as an abomination, yes. It is a sexual sin. The early church members didn't practice polygamy out of lust like the Nephites did, though. Theres a difference between doing it out of lust and doing it for the reason that God commanded you to. God didn't command the Nephites to have multiple wives, so if they did, it would be contrary to His commandments. It all depends on what God is commanding you to do, and as I said earlier, we may not always know WHY He commands us to do certain things. All we can do is trust in Him.

[@Steelblaidd]

Regarding attempting to fabricate the plates. As Martin Harris said, Joseph "had not the credit to purchase so much lead." Just the materials would have been prohibitively expensive not to mention the time.Johna Barnes made himself a replica. Using modern materials, including commercialy available sheets of brass it took eight months just to engrave the plates. And he only did one side and i think his characters were bigger.

[@Yeezus20]

Who saw the plates?

[@Steelblaidd]

@@Yeezus20 I am not sure I understand what you are asking in this case, but Joseph, the three, the eight and Mary Whitmer saw the plates unobstructed. Emma dealt with them regularly while wrapped up as did Martin and Oliver and other members of the Smith family.

[@uggmonster8795]

I love pastor Cliff's content, but his completely ignorant positions on the church are very disappointing.

[@ItsSnagret]

Amen, he should stick with confronting atheism until he gets more educated

[@DavidPeel-fo9xv]

That’s how I feel about a lot of non-lds Christian apologists when it comes to our church.

[@Hamann9631]

David, you are too kind. Those 2 obviously never tried to find out what we actually believe.

[@nasquamastudios]

I really appreciate your comments and insight in relation to Cliffe and Stuart Knechtle. They are both rather persuasive and compelling when it comes to so many matters of faith and religion which makes it all the more important that educated, intelligent, and faithful Latter-day Saints like you are here to push back on some of their anti-Mormon rhetoric. It's imperative that we separate the wheat from the chaff instead of just getting caught up in everything they say, regardless of how much real truth they actually do communicate and defend. Thank you!

[@NicolasConnault]

I really like to listen to them, but they're not living the Golden Rule. They're not treating others with the respect they expect.

[@justjamie6458]

Joseph Smiths polygamy is always under question but King Davids polygamy is perfectly fine.

[@YugaKhan]

Well let's be fair King David suffered because of his polygamy and God did not like King David being with all those women. Same with Solomon.

[@Cocoon68]

Except that God NEVER commanded polygamy and David isn’t even historically a man.. they haven’t proven his existence. You need to read Biblical history

[@dreadmonger55]

@@Cocoon68 The Bible states that God gave David his wives. Perhaps you need to read Biblical history. (?)

[@justjamie6458]

@@Cocoon68 regardless. Those who accept king David and his apx. 600 wives,and concubines reject Joseph Smith on account of his polygamy.

[@alextemus]

@@justjamie6458 A big part of the issue around Smith's polygamy is how vehemently he denied it, to his wife, his associates, but especially to the public. Then when proof inevitably was made public of his marriages to 14 year old teenagers (no, this was not "normal" at the time), or mother-daughter pairs, people understandably got ticked about it, and didn't want the church in their town.

[@EMonzon]

What they got wrong about JS is the same as always: they swallowed up the antimormon recicled tropes that are around since the beginning, and they are regurgitating them now in a chain of fallacies

[@Irvingdector]

- Garments are Biblical. - Is he not aware that multiple prophets in the Bible practiced polygamy?

[@freesaints]

Just because people practiced polygamy in the Bible doesn't mean it was ever okay. I'm curious where in the scriptures it talks about garments. Do you have a chapter and verse?

[@freesaints]

​@@brittianyclements1821thank you. These are specifically Old Testament temple clothes. Have a tough time seeing them is exactly the same thing. I find it interesting that garments are not mentioned in the Book of Mormon or the New Testament. I have a tough time seeing the need for 24/7 garments. Temple garments worn at the temple I can wrap my head around. Anyway, thank you for sharing a source.

[@Irvingdector]

@freesaints: Polygamy is a temporary practice; the norm is Monogany. Without polygamy, the Saints could not have survived from an economic, social, and demographic perspective.

[@freesaints]

​@@Irvingdectorsection 132 from the Doctrine & Covenants does not make it seem like a temporary practice. From that section it would appear that it is a requirement for exaltation. I appreciate your thoughts, but I just tend to disagree. I have serious doubts that polygamy was ever necessary. I used to believe it was necessary and warranted, but as I have read historical records and documents from the time I've been persuaded to believe otherwise.

[@Irvingdector]

@@freesaints I believe D&C 132 is partly true. Were you aware that it was published decades after JS died? It wouldn't be the first thing that the leaders in Utah did that was contrary to what JS did/thought.

[@jerry_phillips]

His comment about Paul coming down instead of working up is interesting. Does he trust Paul more than Christ?

[@Lolesio20]

what do you mean by coming down??? and no we trust christ obviously more than paul. But you missed the point.... Paul is a historical figure who wrote historical written documents about Jesus Christ and through the eye witnesses who knew Christ accepted his writtings as true and reliable.

[@jerry_phillips]

@@Lolesio20 so you accept the Doctrine & Covenants because the historical places exist I guess. Also there were lots of witnesses and joint visions.

[@ari3lz3pp]

I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line. There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense. Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days. If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism. Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit. Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25. Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this. Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless. 💖

[@jerry_phillips]

7:37 so he believes in the Doctrine and Covenants because Kirtland exists. Got it.

[@jonathanettinger6970]

Also, Sherlock Holmes are factual accounts, because London.

[@noelbugarin316]

"In a world that increasingly may mock our beliefs, we will be known by our kindness, our service, our integrity. What a remarkable time to be a disciple of Jesus Christ and to never be ashamed of His gospel." -Elder David A. Bednar❤️.

[@ItsSnagret]

Great work - these guys are great debunking atheists, but their critiques on Mormonism are laughable.

[@MakeupPearls]

I’m so grateful the Holy Ghost testified to me that Joseph Smith is truly one of Heavenly Father’s prophets.

[@e.g.stokes2348]

I love that you pointed out that we are NOT in the Church of Joseph Smith. People seem to be under the delusion that we worship him and that he was a perfect person. It’s sad to see other Christians misrepresent our faith, either intentionally or by ignorance. Either case is damnable since they have large followings and should appreciate the responsibility they bear to share good, credible information.

[@1955robyn]

Thank you! There were many who didn’t believe Jesus Christ was the son of God in his day either. We shouldn’t be surprised that his chosen latter-day prophet would be recognised in our day either. God tells us in our hearts and our minds (that’s the process of revelation) when we are willing to put forth the effort to know whether Jesus Christ is the son of God and whether he did choose Joseph Smith to be a prophet. But you need to ‘want’ to know! Some seem to have already made up their minds what they want to believe.

[@Yeezus20]

Matthew 7:15: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves"

[@user-fg2ix3mb2l]

Thank you for putting your sources in the description! I’m a member of the church and I’ve recently started reading the BoM so I can figure out if I do actually believe in it and for me have other sources helps a ton because the answers that the gospel library gives are so polished they don’t give me a good enough answer so you are helping me on my journey, Thank you!

[@davidgillis950]

Thank you for voicing many things that I have wanted to share in a public sphere. I am nervous about creating content. I appreciate your bravery.

[@denebuxtoo8944]

David you did a great job with this response instead of a reaction! You are awesome! I love your testimony that goes along with this message too.

[@grayman7208]

and the reality is this ... very few "witnesses" wrote about jesus. for example paul was not a witness of jesus. paul claims to have met the resurrected jesus, on the road to damascus ... but not a single witness corroborated it. and several of the books credited to paul, were written by someone else. not paul. luke was not an eye witness. mark was not an eye witness.

[@Yeezus20]

John was, Matthew was. Scholars agree that Jesus existed with multiple outside sources corroborating his existence.

[@JonathanRodriguez-dw1fg]

Paul was…. The road of Damascus he came in contact with the living Christ. These eyewitnesses were willing to die for what they saw. Rather with the three witnesses, they left with only two of them returning.

[@grayman7208]

@@JonathanRodriguez-dw1fg nope. not a single witness of paul on the road to damascus ever confirmed it.

[@grayman7208]

@@Yeezus20 nope. not a single scholar claims john or matthew were eye witnesses to paul's conversion on the road to damascus.

[@grayman7208]

@@JonathanRodriguez-dw1fg nope. sorry, you are wrong. not a single person that was with paul on the road to damascus confirmed that paul saw jesus. all we have is the word of paul. and not even written by paul. but by luke. so the reality is we do not even have the written word of paul claiming he saw jesus on the road to damascus. just a second hand source. luke.

[@user-gs7lv2ng1m]

Love these videos and content. I was investigating the church for eight years and channels like this really helped me understand tackling the difficult topics.

[@Croaven]

Come now, I resent being called a subset.

[@jtalb64]

"Blessed art thou...for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee" Christ taught that the basis of our faith should be faith and revelation from God, not historical (flesh) sources

[@rhi6536]

Compare how David presented his reactions to these Pastors, then compare how they presented their arguments with insulting language 😢. Then consider the scripture from the Saviour's words "by their fruits, ye shall know them" I think it's very clear who is a disciple of Christ here!!

[@JoshHardman-yz5ig]

As a believing member, most of these types of comments in the video sound so obviously ridiculous. But it makes me wonder… what beliefs do I have about other groups that sounds as far off base to members of those groups?

[@ccBRADcc]

Believing in both of them has also brought me closer to Jesus Christ. I am super grateful for their testimonies.

[@mmcbride1]

Love your videos. Wish these pastors actually researched different religions in order to speak more intelligently about them.

[@testtest648]

I used to watch and enjoy cliff. But when I saw how uneducated he was about the LDS faith, I unsubbed and clicked "don't recommend this channel". He if is this extremely wrong about the simplist of things, I cannot trust him with greater things.

[@WitnessJesustheChrist]

"magic underwear?" You mean sacred symbol of my commitment to Jesus Christand His covering Atonement of my sins? Its like a musical masterpiece being classified as noise.

[@ari3lz3pp]

I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line. There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense. Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days. If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism. Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit. Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25. Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this. Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless. 💖

[@johnmatthews4099]

i really like your handle. Very nice.

[@WitnessJesustheChrist]

@@johnmatthews4099 thanks. I’m trying in my super small way to share the light of God.

[@Tjensen999]

I cannot wait until the sealed portion of the Brass Plates is opened and read upon the housetops. Not going to happen until we have faith like the Brother of Jared did. But, until then, we are to exercise our faith. If it was all given to us, where would our progression come from? ❤

[@user-og2wt3le4j]

I do like their campus ministry. However evangelical Christians often get it wrong on Mormons. They also think there is a Trinity which is incorrect. Cliffe has said Jesus was God. That's not what Christ said while alive on earth. And it is not based on scripture.

[@richarner3856]

Why did the Jews try to stone Jesus in John 5?

[@connorsaari8364]

I am LDS, but Jesus definitely alluded to the idea of being God

[@whitebeans7292]

When Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I AM,” that is the clearest possible statement of Divinity one could make to a 1st century Jewish audience. Is He older than Abraham? ✅ Is He an eternal being? ✅ Is He using God’s name as revealed to Moses? ✅ Did people try to stone Him for blasphemy immediately after? ✅

[@veritasrestituta812]

John 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

[@taylorpack1120]

The Book of Mormon itself attests that Jesus is Divine. The title page of the Book of Mormon states that part of the purpose of the book is to persuade all people that: “Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations.”. Mosiah 3:5 states the following: For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases. One of the key themes of the Book of Mormon is that Jesus Christ is the God of Israel, under the direction of His Father, and that He came down and became mortal like us to suffer for our pains, redeem all from death and those who believe in His name from sin, and to bring us back to Him and His Father. That is the good news. That is the gospel of Jesus Christ that the prophets and apostles have declared.

[@DarrylDriggs-co8bx]

I am surprised that a Christian would mock and ridicule a symbol of the suffering, crucifixion, atonement, shedding of blood, and death of Jesus Christ. In Genesis we read the Lord made garments out of coats of skins and covered their nakedness, implying the death and shedding of blood of animals, perhaps lambs. Abel's offering of an animal was accepted, but Cain's offering of fruits and vegetables was not. The garments covered their nakedness, but also was symbolic of the covering of our sins by His atonement. We know that it is faith in Christ that healings and miracles are wrought, and not by crosses, holy water from the River Jordan, golden Chablis cups, candles, or garments. And crosses of themselves or rosarys do not ward off vampires or evil spirits; but are symbols a nd reminders of our faith. Still we do not mock the symbols, nor caps of Jews and Catholics, or robes, candles, frocks and staffs of pastors. Symbols teach us and remind us of Christ and His crucifixion and atonement; but they aren't Christ, nor do we worship them.

[@thomasdixon2752]

Speaking of archeology, the statement that there is no archeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon in the new world is premature at best. There’s only been what 2% of the land has been excavated? (Don’t know the real number but it’s extremely small). That’s like saying you have only looked Arkansas and discovered that there are no large bodies of water, thus there are no large bodies of water in the entire American continents.

[@gwengold8154]

Plus, you need to take into account the events of 3 Nephi 8&9. At Jesus's crucifixion, it says that mountains went in the sea, and the sea was raised up, etc. I'm sure that the topography of the area looked very different from before. 3 Nephi 8:12 says that the entire face of the earth was changed! Cities were burned to the ground. Cities were sunk. Cities were carried off in whirlwind. People might consider that this all could affect archeology and perhaps even which area that Lehi and Nephi first settled.

[@everythingUTrealestate]

​@@gwengold8154 Thats circular logic. Find an archeologist who isn't in the church who agrees with that.

[@ari3lz3pp]

I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line. There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense. Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days. If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism. Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit. Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25. Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this. Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless. 💖

[@bestill365]

Thank you for defending tbe gospel with civility. A+

[@jonathanettinger6970]

Little footage used of Pastor 1, but Pastor 2... You're far more congenial than he deserves. I can start to count both the fallacies and false information he gives. He makes prosperity gospel preachers seem benevolent by comparison. And I am SO holding back on the words I COULD use for him.

[@chyhodgson7726]

If you need some rage catharsis the Ward Radio video is great for that. It's why I feel both of these channels are super important.

[@Jason.todd1279]

Who could've guessed that two evangelical pastors would grossly misrepresent church history and theology and use stupid historicity arguments. If anyone wants to know how to rebuttal this kind of argument watch the Bart Ehrman vs Justin Bass debate, really educatuonal, these guys would benefit from it a lot.

[@katiegardner9645]

Well done D.S.

[@braydencaldwell7310]

Amazing video! Thanks for sharing this response I hope those pastors get to see this to better understand what we really believe

[@crisantocabrerajr.8540]

Joseph Smith was and is a True Prophet of God The Book of Mormon is True The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is God's church and Kingdom. No man can come to God except thru Jesus Christ.

[@HankHartley-md4du]

True

[@andrewparker2751]

Oftentimes I come across a video that leaves me thinking "I couldn't have said it better myself". This is one of those videos. Excellent video!

[@Glissandola]

Fantastic responses! Thank you for defending The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and being a great apologist. May your videos spread far and wide.

[@ari3lz3pp]

I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line. There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense. Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days. If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism. Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit. Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25. Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this. Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless. 💖

[@TrevorMinerPTDPT]

Thank you for the video! I'm glad I stumbled upon it. New subscriber.

[@jonjensen6745]

Well said Dave and very well defended. Appreciate that you reacted to these pastors in such a respectful way.

[@thelifeofryan8683]

Well Said brother!

[@TimDavie5]

David, thanks for this video. Love the concise answers while maintaining charity for these folks. It’s sad how blatantly some misconstrue what we believe without taking the time to appreciate the truth which is oftentimes more nuanced, and consistently more beautiful. Thanks again.

[@ari3lz3pp]

I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line. There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense. Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days. If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism. Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit. Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25. Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this. Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless. 💖

[@MrArtist7777]

Joseph Smith repeatedly, and very clearly, stated where the Book of Mormon lands were and are: in the lower Great Lakes region, U.S.A. He was asked, pointedly, where the Book of Mormon took place and he said where the western tribes of Indians (Native Americans) live. In the 1830's, that was: Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and Missouri, exactly where he sent missionaries to THE Lamanites, as read in D&C 28, 30 and 32. Joseph taught the Sac and Fox Native Americans, that the Book of Mormon is a record of THEIR ancestors. Joseph clearly stated that he and others walked over the mounds of the Nephites, picking up their skulls and bones as evidence of them, while walking through: Ohio, IN, IL, MO. Joseph testified of Lamanite's bones, found in Illinois, and identified the city Manti, in N.E. Missouri, and Zarahemla, in eastern IA, where thousands of mounds and artifacts have been found, in the exact location Joseph Smith said the Nephites and Lamanites lived. Nephite cities and villages were made of wood, which burnt down, which we have ample evidence of. PLEASE stop the false Mesoamerica theory, the Mayans sailed from Thailand in: ~2000 B.C.E., to Guatemala and have NOTHING to do with the Lehites and Mulekites, or Jaredites. Maya is an Asian-Indian word and the Maya brought their stepped pyramids, deity, language and culture from Thailand-Cambodia, to Central America. The Native Americans of the Great Lakes, Mississippi and Ohio Rivers, have virtually nothing in common with others living in the Americas. Over 90% of Bible towns and villages have never been located. The towns they think they have located, are best guesses, with no verifiable proof. Jericho, Nazareth, and many other Bible towns have never been located. The Exodus has never been proven, nor any of the cities and villages of the ancient patriarchs, pre-Noah. Accept it on faith, or don't, no proof will be given.

[@andrewtodeschini5374]

There are many sources from the latter part of Joseph’s life where he referred to ancient ruins in central/meso America as the ruins of a great Nephite civilization. Joseph also talked about the events of the Book of Mormon taking place all the way down in South America at times. So if we’re going to take quotes from the Prophet, we should look at all of them. What we know is that Mormon hid up a large collection of records in a hill named Cumorah and then his son, Moroni, buried the part of those records that Mormon gave him in another hill in upstate New York several years later which was never given a name in the text. This hill would be called Cumorah by the early members of the restored church. To cap it all off, the Book of Mormon tells us that the people spread to cover the whole face of the land, and the scriptures never tell us that the mulekites, lehites, and jaredites are the only people living in the Americas, so it’s not impossible to imagine that Nephi and his people were interacting with other peoples and converting them to Christ and making new Nephites. I’m not saying you’re wrong about North America and Book of Mormon geography, but I am saying that you shouldn’t call other models flatly false, especially when that model resonates substantially with what the record says.

[@philandrews2860]

@MrArtist7777: A 'Heartland as Hinterland, Mesoamerican Core' model, which Mark Alan Wright wrote a book about, can reasonably explain all of Joseph Smith's statements about various Nephite and Lamanite tribes' presence in lands north of Mexico, along with their descendants. I subscribe to that model currently, as it is, in my opinion, the best fit so far between the actual Book of Mormon text and the physical evidence at the locations described in that model. The correspondences, using sound mainstream scientific and archaeological research, are numerous and quite compelling. I have studied the various Book of Mormon geographical models extensively. As for the actual Zarahemla and Manti city locations, it is a huge stretch and an unwarranted misconnection to say that the texts you referred to are saying that those 2 places named as such in the 19th century historical records were the actual locations of the Book of Mormon cities with the same names. The official church doctrine certainly has never made such a claim, nor will it ever make such a claim. Our official doctrine is that there is no such claim. As for Mayan civilization sailing from Thailand in ~2000 B.C. and that their language and culture came from that part of SE Asia at that time: well, it appears that we are using completely different sources for our ancient world history and archaeological information. I use reputable mainstream scientific sources which say that the Mayan civilization and languages and genetics, along with the other ancient peoples of the Americas, were indigenous and ultimately descended from their very distant ancestors, who came through the Bering Strait over 10,000 years ago. Also the native Americans of the Great Lakes, Mississippi, and Ohio Rivers (Hopewell and Adena) were descended from earlier native American tribes who were in North America. There is no evidence that they were of more recent Middle Eastern origin. The 'X' mtdna 'evidence' that the Heartland folks like to make use of, is totally incorrect and is a complete misinterpretation of mainstream genetic science. Additionally, I would not expect to find any surviving old world dna, related to the Book of Mormon text, in modern native American peoples given both the very small number of immigrants in each party compared to the much larger native population, along with the fact that about 90% of the native American gene pool was lost during the Columbian exchange. That doesn't mean necessarily that most or all native Americans don't have Lehi and/or his party of immigrants among their many ancestors, but it simply means that Lehi's party's dna contribution as a percentage of their total dna makeup is very likely too small to detect, so cannot be proven. I agree with the other commenter who implied that many of the native peoples in the areas where the Nephites lived (and migrated to) were converted to their religious faith and thus became "Nephites". Eventually I believe that the native gene pool dominated over time, to the point where the old world dna was no longer detectable, using current dna analytical methods.

[@whitebeans7292]

Jericho was located. There’s very clear evidence of it in Palestine, with a double layer wall that collapsed and burning immediately after, which is fully consistent with the accounts of the Bible. The burned pottery remains also match timewise with the arrival of the Israelites from Egypt around 1400 BC. No such evidence exists for the Lamanites, or any other of Joseph Smith’s named tribes.

[@DavidPeel-fo9xv]

Where the heck did you get your info about the Mayans coming from Thailand?

[@philandrews2860]

@whitebeans7292: Regarding 'Lamanites', their definition in the Book of Mormon is quite broad: basically meaning every group of people that was opposed to the Nephites. The 'Nephites' were pretty much defined as those who were part of a particular group whom the Lamanites were opposing, among whom were those who believed in God and were trying to follow the teachings of the Judeo-Christian-like religion brought over and practiced by those who followed Nephi after he parted ways with his brothers Laman and Lemuel. Like the ancient Israelites, they were a mixture of those who believed in God and tried to follow their religious teachings and those who had fallen away from their religious faith and became wicked, following the beliefs of surrounding 'worldly' cultures and groups, as well as those who no longer believed in their religion, but who nevertheless weren't necessarily 'wicked'. The similarities of the Nephites and Lamanites with the Israelites and their surrounding Canaanite cultures ends pretty much there. There are major differences, such as: 1) Like David Snell alluded to in the video: we don't know exactly where the Nephites lived. However, in the Mesoamerican model, which I subscribe to, certain areas within the Chiapas and Tabasco regions of southern Mexico are plausible Nephite locations. They all have hot moist climates which are not conducive to perishable records' preservation, unlike the fairly arid climates of the Levant in the Middle East. Also, the prime candidate for Zarahemla is currently under a reservoir, Lake Angostura, created by the creation of the Angostura dam in the 1970's. Some excavations were done prior to the dam's creation, which showed some interesting correspondences with the Zarahemla of the Book of Mormon (Santa Rosa Mesoamerican site). 2) The Nephites are thought to have been part of a larger culture, and as such, it would likely prove difficult to find artifacts that might distinguish them from the native American culture that they were immersed in. In the Mesoamerican model, they are thought to have been part of the Zoquean culture of southern Mexico, which is believed to have descended from the more ancient Olmec culture. 3) Since the Lamanites were defined as 'those who opposed the Nephites', it would be even harder to find any artifacts among the Mayans or other cultures in that part of southern Mexico or Guatemala which could betray an Old World influence. There have been some interesting artifacts that could show an old world influence, but nothing that is completely conclusively definitive. This is reasonable to expect, so I'm not surprised by that. 4) The immigrant parties described in the Book of Mormon were very small compared to the pre-existing much larger native population. As such, artifacts that would survive in that climate would be very hard to come by, especially when you add the fact that the climate is not conducive to preservation, the fact that we often don't know exactly where to look, etc. 5) Unlike in Israel and Judah, since the immigrant groups were very small in number, I believe that the Old World writing system and spoken language of the immigrants was confined only to the ruling/priestly class lineage who kept the records on the gold/brass plates, with their families and descendants likely being bi-lingual, and the main body of the culture being more native-American in both spoken language and writing. I believe they had many converts amongst the native peoples, and as the centuries went by, the percentage of native culture and language increased amongst the Nephites and/or the followers of their original religion. This would make the likelihood of finding evidence of Old World culture even less likely.

[@danjohnson8556]

I generally like most of the points Cliff makes when talking to atheists and college kids. It seems like there is an outsized reliance on archeology and history, rather than the Holy Spirit which was given to testify of truth. I'm pretty sure Christ didn't say that archeology would be the primary source supporting truth.

[@rynnola8634]

Fire vid man!!!!

[@keystonelds]

Thanks man (or potentially Miranda Cosgrove)!

[@joshuaasuman1]

I love what Cliffe does. Stuart I have mixed feelings about. They’re doing amazing work, but there are times where they are misinformed, as we can see with this post.

[@clontstable1]

“Own their own planet” give me a break!

[@ari3lz3pp]

I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line. There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense. Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days. If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism. Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit. Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25. Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this. Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless. 💖

[@wes2176]

You poor poor Anti-Mormons, you can leave the Church, you just cant leave it alone.

[@clontstable1]

So….the Levite Priests wore “magical underwear?”

[@codykennedy8359]

Paul warns us of gospels contrary to one that he preached. And I believe this verse I have below sheds light on who delivered a contrary gospel to Joseph Smith. “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.” ‭‭Galatians‬ ‭1‬:‭8‬ ‭ I am worried that you are all deceived by Satan and I love you all so much. Please heed this warning brothers!

[@EricLovesCHRIST]

I’ve watched thousands of hours of AMD (antimormon doctrine) and I agree this was very very weak

[@musicalme7504]

Yeah when I watched Cliff’s video I was laughing the whole time. They got everything so wrong. Thanks for the video David!

[@Statlineboxing]

Mormonism fails the test of science and the test of scripture, y’all can’t see it cause you were born into it so you’re defending Joseph smith….. Matthew 24:24 the Bible tells us For there shall arise (false Christs,) and (false prophets,) This is important because the Mormon church teaches a message that sounds so similar to Christianity, but is fundamentally a different gospel. It teaches another Christ, and that is a Christ that cannot save you. It’s a Christ that is not found in Scripture, Jesus can’t be the creator of Lucifer and be his brother at the same time, the Jesus Christ of the Word of the living God is the creator of Lucifer (not) his brother, and Jesus says in John 14:6 that He is the way, the truth, the life, and no man comes to the father except through Him. Jesus also said in John 8:25 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

[@sethhousley5940]

I invite you to talk to more of LDS people. We aren’t all born into it, that’s a false rumor Christians spread around. We don’t believe Christ created Lucifer, you do. We believe and are familiar with all the verses you have and will hereafter cite as the word of God. We don’t believe that the Bible holds an exhaustive description of God or truth. we believe in a God that still reveals truth, about himself and his Gospel. We believe the main points of His gospel that are of salvific importance are found in the Bible Namely faith, repentance, baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end.

[@everythingUTrealestate]

I'm not Christian so passing the test of scriptures doesn't matter to me. But the test of science it fails completely. But going back to scriptures there are seemingly hundreds of contradictions between the Bible and Mormon beliefs and teachings. The fact that the Bible says God doesn't change his mind and in the Mormon religion God changes his mind every time the times change or if it's needed to grow the church is very interesting.

[@CrazyGoose2704]

Not everyone was born into the church, there are many members who joined later in life. I’ve always struggled extensively with the mass amount of denominations and which to choose. How do you actually know you’re in the correct denomination? Many are born into one and stay with it for life. (Like you’re saying happens with the LDS church) not to mention many denominations conflict very heavily with each other and even more change depending on what church you go to. I can go to a baptist church in Washington and travel to Tennessee and be taught very differently. This isn’t true for the LDS church however. I could move to a completely different country and be taught essentially the same way but I’m absolutely being taught the same ideas. There are many verses that talk in the exact opposite way you are describing the trinity. Why would Heavenly Father be confusing and difficult to understand. Especially about something as crucial at the trinity. Why would the Bible repeatedly say that Jesus is the son of God when they are actually the same being. I don’t believe he would be that confusing and hard to understand when he represents truth and clarity. You are welcome to your own beliefs and your own perspectives but I do as well. You may not agree with me and that’s fine but for many of us members this is the church that makes sense and it’s the church that I was told by my Heavenly Father was the right church for me. I’m sure you don’t have an interest in my testimony and I’m not going to force it onto you, but it is one thing I cannot say didn’t happen nor one that didn’t come from God. I’m just trying to bring a new perspective to the conversation and hopefully we can agree to disagree. Have a wonderful day.

[@user-ik7uo4qw5t]

I found a video where Cliffe explains the trinity as modalism, which, correct me if im wrong. Early Christians considered that as heresy.

[@kuriju88]

First girl is right, we shouldn’t “trust” Paul either. The Old Testament was not about Jesus. The messiah was not supposed to die without fulfilling. The followers of Jesus appropriated the scriptures as and created a second coming as a way to make sense of their charismatic leaders death.

[@cjextreme]

When they blatantly say what they know to be wrong and use it as a selling point to harass the church. Its not getting it wrong, its out and out lying! I have zero respect for liars ! I do because I'm a liar! I lie to beautiful women all the time! Difference being, i dont lie to make people hate. I also hope the liars get exactly the same results i do! (Which is nowhere)😢

[@philandrews2860]

Thanks for sharing this. I really appreciate the kind and understanding approach to those who find fault with our faith and beliefs. That is one of the things I really appreciate about our faith is that we don't make a habit of finding fault with other religions, but actually try to look for the good in them. Even though the Cliffe and Stuart likely mean well, and are doing what they think is right, I am not all all impressed with their approach. They would do better to follow Jeff McCullough's example. From my overall impressions, Jeff has a really good spirit about him and is very non-contentious, while Cliffe and Stuart exude the spirit of contention in many of their interviews and discussions, and I have watched a few of them. It is one thing to stand firm in your beliefs, but it is another thing to go too far with that firmness by being overbearing and contentious. I think that contentiousness comes out in the open when they misrepresent and find fault with other religions, such as ours. I just watched an interview between Cliffe Knectle and Matt Dillahunty, and I wasn't at all impressed with the way Cliffe handled that. I think you achieve a good balance here by defending our beliefs from misrepresentation and falsehoods, while not personally attacking those sharing those bad ideas, but by being understanding and thoughtful towards them, gently inviting them to have a more informed and accurate approach to our faith.

[@cameronreed1411]

The parallels between the New Testament and the Restoration are striking - 12 witnesses of Christ - 12 witnesses of the Book of Mormon (Joseph included). The Restoration is like a type and shadow of the Life and Acts of Jesus Christ just like Moses and his acts were a type and shadow of Christ.

[@Frigid_Iron]

“The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?” ‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭17‬:‭9‬ We all must test our faith by scripture. Our own interpretations can lead us to ruin.

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

Wonderful analysis in addressing a few of our beliefs in regards to our perceived beliefs.

[@cjbatesii]

Joseph Smith was clear. Nephi was clear in speaking of a land of promise...Heartland.

[@willprison3859]

I find the LDS church to be false just as they find my beliefs to be false. But love them and who they are. They are some of the Greatest people Ive ever got the chance to meet. I hope they have great lives and The Lord Blesses them.

[@keystonelds]

I can respect that.

[@ReachingForTheBrightestStar]

Amen, David, thank you for this video!

[@keanuakina9014]

Very well articulated. I like your thinking and fairness. Subbed

[@whabaskeythethird]

Thank you David! I love your videos, they always strengthen my testimony!

[@jeffreyhouston3803]

David never disappoints

[@naoden]

Very well done! I hope to see more "debunk" videos!

[@jakewhennessy]

On the polygamy piece: Joseph Smith said he was commanded by God to take multiple wives (Joseph Smith to 15 year old Lucy Walker). This is the same Joseph Smith whom you trust when he said he was told by God that every church went astray and he was the one to restore it. Why do you trust one thing Joseph says he was commanded of God to do but not another thing he said he was commanded of God to do (polygamy)? Additionally, this is far different from OT kings. God had already commanded for them not to take multiple wives. (as a creation ordinance). They willing fully disobeyed God. To Joseph Smith, however, not takin more wives would be considered disobedience to God in his own eyes. I know it may not seem initially proper to you, being a LDS apologist, to reconsider your beliefs, but I hope this is deeply considered, even if for now this consideration occurs in the silence of your room.

[@jeffpope2115]

Thanks Keystone Channel for your input about an honest Latter Day Saint’s rebuttal to the pastors who like to twist our history. I have a real treat for you! Get the book “ beloved bridegroom” by donna nielsen. It shows the facts of how the Savior used ancient marriage customs in teaching his gospel. You will love this book! Thanks.

[@hackerj23]

Well well well just stumbled onto a new channel I’m definitely subscribing to!!

[@LubricatedHeelys]

David NEVER CHANGE I love you brotha

[@martinsmith8337]

It's a lot easier to do Bible history archeology since everyone knows where Jerusalem is/was located.

[@johnmatthews4099]

If you read the Book of Mormon, you will see that it is all about Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith could not have written it. It is too complex. I doubt many, if any, people today could come up with something as equally complex and realistic. As some have wrote here, it is obvious these two gentlemen are ignorant about what they are talking. And acting like they know the truth of the matter, means in a sense that they are preaching in bad faith.

[@fortium1025]

Also...the dude mentioning new testament sites that were unproven to exist until they were discovered proves the point about Book of Mormon geography. We wouldn't know of these places without their being mentioned in the sacred scriptures and their discovery will inevitably come and it will do as little or as much to persuade people of the validity of the scriptures as the existence of new testament sites.

[@innertuber4049]

Great points, and I agree with all of them. I do think there's a nuance with Paul vs JS that you could've touched on a bit more. Paul's life never really turned for the better, physically, at any point after his conversion. He has health issues, he spent a lot of time in prison, he had to work for his own sustenance and rely on charity. His sacrifice was pretty consistent to the end of his life. Brother Joseph, on the other hand, did see a good number of meaningful improvements. Let's just put it this way: only one of these two died while holding political office and owning a mansion. I'm not trying to discount the persecution Joseph faced; the nuance I mean to add is simply that to both a genuine man and a fraud in the same position, continuing to profess belief would come with an awful lot of perks that somebody who was once in the depths of poverty and obscurity would be very hesitant to yield.

[@ari3lz3pp]

I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line. There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense. Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days. If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism. Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit. Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25. Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this. Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless. 💖

[@zacharyswart7805]

I love your channel bro. Thank you for doing this video. You always build up my faith. Please don't stop.

[@Idk40003]

5:44 I do think the idea that Joseph just ran to his garage and grabbed an old can of rustoleum lying around just to touch up his fake plates is pretty amusing

[@Icanonlyimagn7891]

Your channel has become one of my very top favorites! ❤️☀️

[@wendyfoster5579]

Play the tape of this father telling his children that their mother isn’t coming back on repeat at the jail for 30 years.

[@freesaints]

I love these guys and I think they do a great job of defending the faith in general. However, their arguments here are pretty poor. Their characterization of Joseph Smith is inaccurate. Even some of the other points they bring up are more on the esoteric end. Not everything they mentioned is actually core doctrine.