Dissecting the new Two Ways to Live - with Phillip Jensen and Tony Payne

[@hkuiper100]

It's good for the soul for Christians as well to constantly remind yourself that there are two paths, and the way to eternal life is narrow and few find it, but the way to destruction is broad and many take it, as Jesus said. It's very sobering and reminds you that we need to be evangelistic for those around us. It spurs us on to try to talk to them and to pray for them.

[@stephenwalton3140]

It’s a great shame that Phillip dismisses Tim Keller’s critique so quickly, without listening to it. Keller’s point that there are 3 ways to live is slightly tongue-in-cheek, but he isn’t denying Matthew 7:13-14, or saying that there is a third way between Christ and not-Christ. Keller is pointing out that there is more than one way to take the wrong road- if you like, that the wrong way has two lanes in it. One is the one that 2WTL targets- the way of disobeying God. The other is of obeying God, and trusting in our obedience to save us. That is where 2WTL is weak- point 6 could be taken as Pelagian- that we save ourselves by submitting and committing ourselves to the way of obedience. I don’t think for one moment that Phillip and Tony mean that, it would be a misinterpretation of 2WTL- but it is a real danger for the more committed people in churches that they trust in their commitment, rather than trusting in Christ. I love 2WTL, and use it regularly, and I like this new version- but I have to tweak point 6 to talk about faith and trust. But their response at 17:40 f is spot on.

[@jeffrichiam95]

So helpful thanks for the insights

[@Joshlama]

So apart from Philip being on the attack on valid critiques for most of the interview, the broader issue that Tony, Dominic and Phillip miss about Sam's critique is the 23 pages of what makes a gospel presentation work before you get to the critique. and that its followed by two other critiques of gospel presentations which use the same framework, although use different metaphors. The way in which Dominic sets up the quotes (and having Philip respond without understanding the context) leads to a warping of what Sam is saying, and to say that Sam is committing a cultural Christianity by twisting the gospel for the listener is really missing Sam's points. I will say the problem with Sam's book is that it has helpful wisdom on how to evangelise well, but much wisdom is needed to pick out the weeds or mis-truths that could be implied by the reader. I can see many readers of Sam's work misuse the metaphors in the tables in that are found throughout the first half of the chapter and play "fill in the blank" in making their own presentations because it feels right. In this Two Ways to Live (TWtL) revision, they do get into changing the metaphors found in their outline. Tony gets into this in their improvements in box 1 (at 5:40) where the change of God as Loving doesn't get introduced until much later in this presentation, but instead focusing on the world that God has created and our expected response. I did find it funny that the more important critiques such as the world disappearing in box 6 was replied with "We couldn't get the graphic to work with two worlds." (22:22) I think that Philip's comment about little focus on the resurrection is true about the whole of Sam's chapter, and of TWtL before this revision as well. TWtL, with all its faults, has had a profound and positive impact on Australian evangelism for 30 years. This revision sounds like it's more mnemonic (i.e. easy to remember) and something which other gospel outlines critiquing TWtL don't focus on and I hope that it returns to a gospel outline that is used to guide conversations to enquirers and non-believers.

[@nelsonvhukani7375]

Yah i also found 1 Peter 3 complicated in the old version

[@RaRa-dg6lx]

Your treatment of Sam Chan actually proved his point that there's a real lack of love in all of this

[@JASON_CAMPEAU]

*HOUSE OF SATAN...GOD IS AGAINST THE PASTORS, JER 23:1.* REVELATION 2:10 - *"A CROWN OF LIFE"* *======= **25:10:21** ========* ISAIAH 65:11 - But ye are they that forsake the Lord, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that || troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that ||number. ||Or, Gad ||Or, Many MARK 7:8 - For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups : and many other such like things ye do. MATTHEW 26:29 - But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. (Luke 22:18) JOHN 12:43 - *For they loved the praise of men, more then the praise of God. (*John 5:44) REVELATION 14:10 -The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: *=======================* *JACK & JILL WENT UP THE HILL (**#TenCommandments**), TO FETCH A PAIL OF WATER (**#Life**), JACK FELL DOWN BROKE HIS CROWN (**#Life**), AND JILL CAME TUMBLING AFTER.* *=======================* *UNDERSTAND GOD & JESUS, SPOKEN WORDS ONLY.* *[THE FALLEN ONES: Commandment Breakers]* PROVERBS 6:17 - A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that *shed innocent blood,* *["Saul, why persecutest thou me?"]* -Acts 26:14 ISAIAH 1:15 - And when ye spread forth your *hands, I will hide my eyes from you; yea, when ye +make many prayers I will not hear: your hands are full of +*blood. *(Prov 1:28, Jer 14:12, Mic 3:4) +Heb. multiply prayer. *(Isa 59:3) +Heb. bloods ISAIAH 14:12 - How art thou fallen from heaven, ||O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! ||Or, O daystar. *[CHRISTIAN RAPTURE LIE]* ISAIAH 14:13 - For thou hast said in thine heart, *I will ascend into heaven,* I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: JEREMIAH 31:34 - And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. JEREMIAH 44:3 - Because of their wickedness which they have committed to provoke me to anger, in that they went to burn incense, and to serve other gods, whom they knew not, neither they, ye, nor your fathers. HOSEA 6:6 - For I desired mercy, and *not sacrifice;* and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings MATTHEW 4:7 - Jesus said unto him, It is written again, *Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. *(Deu 6:16) MATTHEW 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but fulfill. MATTHEW 5:21 - Ye have heard, that it was said, ||by them of old time, *Thou shalt not kill: and, Whosoever shall kill, shall be in danger of the Judgement. ||Or, to them *(Exod 20:13, Deut 5:17) *["Enter ye in at the strait gate:.."]* - Matt 7:13 MATTHEW 9:13 - But go ye and learn what that meaneth, *I will have mercy and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, *but sinners to repentance. *(Hose 6:6, Matt 12:7) *(1 Tim 1:25) MATTHEW 10:33 - *But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. *( Mar 8:38, Luke 9:26, 2 Tim 2:1) ( *19* -2021- *22* ) MATTHEW 12:29 - And Jesus answered him, The #first of all the #commandments is, #Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: *MATTHEW* 16:20 - Then #charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. ( *MARK* 8:30, *LUKE* 9:21 & Acts 4:18) ["...the mouth ... *THREE WITNESSES* , every word may be established."] - Matt 18:16 MATTHEW 24:23 - Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. LUKE 10:18 - And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning *fall* from heaven. JOHN 8:44 - Ye are of your father the #devil *(Saul/Paul),* and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer *(crucified Jesus)* from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. ACTS 8:3 - As for #Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and hauling men and women *committed them to prison.* ACTS 26:14 - And when we were all *fallen to the earth,* I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. ACTS 26:15 - And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 1 JOHN 3:4 - Whosoever comitteth sin, transgresseth the law: for sin is transgression of the law. 1 JOHN 3:8 - He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. #PAUL: *"THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL"* Hebrews, Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Philemon, Galatians, Philippians 1 and 2 Thessalonians, Ephesians, Colossians, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus. 2 PETER 3:16 - As also in all his Epistles, speaking in them of these things, which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable rest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto there own destruction. REVELATION 2:10 - Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the #devil (Paul) shall *cast some of you into prison,* that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a *crown of life.* REVELATION 20:15 - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. REVELATION 21:5 - And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, *I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. *(Isa 43:19) *====================*

[@kelleryeller9495]

There are not just two ways to respond to God but three: irreligion, religion, and the gospel. If you want to see what a religious response is, look no further than this episode.

[@albertturner1039]

I had not problem what Keller meant, but can you point to speciifc things that were said about the Gospel in this video or in the presentaiton in two ways to live that deny the truth of the Gospel? E.g., Do you think their presentation of what it means to reprent (they way they explain it) is wrong?