Ditch The Derailleur! | EMTB Hub Gears Conversion

[@andrewgreenwood8727]

Ray is an absolute ⭐ such an engaging man, easy to listen to, so knowledgeable & very clever person, it was a lovely video to watch ; EMBN should have a tech team & Ray should be part of it ! All things tech for EMBN Ray is a breath of fresh air !! Great watch 👍👌⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ I thought it was a great system, & definitely could be the way forward !! Much less maintenance ! That's got to be a good thing !!! 👍

[@r1zzy2k7]

I'll second this!

[@johngreen787]

I agree with you 💯 👍,

[@xxMissSummerxx1]

Ray is truly an amazing guy .. hope we see more from Ray.

[@embn]

Ray is brilliant! We hope to have him involved with some of our future projects! 👍

[@theveryaverageelectricmoun8879]

One of the best vids Ive seen in a while. The joy on Rays face at the end of the run down the hill is priceless.. Sometimes I think that at 50+ i'm getting close to the end of riding mountain trails. Thank you EMBN and Ray for proving me waaaaaayyy wrong.

[@terencemichaels]

I'm 67, bought my first MTB in 1984 and won't stop until I fall off never to rise again...ha ha...seriously, EMTB's have given me a new lease on life and surely I'm not alone. Check out Gaucin by drone on KZbin and you'll see why mountain biking here is such fun.

[@sfan3725]

Despite having two IGH bikes and loving the simplicity, for me there are 2 big drawbacks and one minor one. 1. Limitation on input torque - Not able to lower the gearing enough for hilly terrain without going well outside the recommended primary ratio. Only the Rohloff seems to be able to handle a sub 20 inch bottom gear without overtorqing the unit. With horizontal or sloping dropouts and high input torque the wheel nuts need to be very tight to stop the wheel twisting out of the slots. 2. The necessity to unweight the pedals in order to change gear can really kill your momentum on a steep hill. 3. The wheel gearchange mechanism on my Shimano Nexus 7 can be a challenge to refit after getting a puncture with freezing hands on a cold dark night... Loving the channel, keep 'em coming!

[@d.k.7710]

Eventhough I'm more into Trekking than Mountain Bike.... (and spent already few miles on a some) Yes, limited torque is an serious issue on the Shimmy. I've got Shimmy 11 gears and had to change primary ratio for climbing some hills with an pretty heavy trailer + kid. I could literally feel torsion of the axles inside the hub... (no damage though, but rather short usage in this confy). Precisely: on 28" wheel I've got ~ 1.6m as minimum / crank rotation (while lowest allowed ratio suggests > 2.1m) Unweighthing the pedals not an real issue after some practice - 95% of gear change absolutely smooth, other 5% a bit tricky. As for Derailleur, I guess Other rather annoying point was the (lack of) efficiency, especially at gears 9, 10 an 11 - back then I was constantly struggling on driving with lower gears and usually too high (for me) cadence... Hub then replaced by Rohloff and went down to ~ 1.4m / crank rotation and heavily abused the hub by riding out-of-saddle and 40kg trailer on a 8% hill. No issues whatsoever... and finally gear hub with reasonable efficiency, so higher gears are not feeling like riding with tied brakes. Few other guys have made the efficiency comparison for several internal hubs and found out the reason: Shimmy drops partly down to ~80-85% while Rohloff keeps 90-94% range constantly Good ride mate

[@mattd5136]

I think it's a pretty darn fine idea, especially when combined with something like the Gates Carbon Drive. That said, from the numbers of exploded/ruined hub gear units I've seen on muscle powered cargobikes, I'm going to suggest doing this with anything less than a Rolhoff tandem rated hub is going to lead to more shop/warranty time than actual ride time.

[@besbikeuk485]

We have tried Rohloff, Alfine and even NuVinci hubs with our custom build Tongsheng ebikes. They all work brilliant as well as Tongsheng mid drive motors. To get the motor assist at higher cadence we do have higher voltage version or Open Source Firmware. Hard to beat the specs (torque sensing, good power, higher speed limit) at the same price.

[@oldblokeswhoshouldknowbett8108]

Loved seeing Ray enjoying the trails.. start of another expensive hobby I reckon 👌

[@scottmackenzie9437]

Warmed my heart watching this video. Nothing to do with the bike - everything to do with the joy Ray had riding a new section of trails he'd never ridden before. Watching from Canada - Love EMBN and this video!

[@jeanmarc_in_Hudson]

Beautiful thank you! Ray is an embn treasure. 👍

[@embn]

100%! We always love to have Ray in videos! He has so much knowledge! 👍

[@burleigh604]

I said 2 yes ago that these hub gears are the way to go. Rohloff do the best ones IMHO. Shimano are good too with the nexus range

[@wx2999]

For hardtail bikes I agree, but for dual suspension ebikes I think a gearbox system is better because there is less unsprung weight. Alternatively there have been a few bikes in the past that have mounted an internally geared hub inside the front triangle of the frame, like the Lahar downhill bike.

[@cccpkingu]

Kindernay is better than Rohloff. I have all three. (Alfine instead of nexus though, but have ridden that plenty). This appears to be the ALFINE S7000/S700, which is new.

[@johndent8813]

I have a Rohloff 14 speed hub on my eMTB connected to the Bosch motor via a Gates Belt Drive - even less maintenance....

[@christiansteinert9669]

Can you post a parts list for conversion?

[@ashpunting]

I've said it before I love Ray's bike builds I would love this guy to build me a bike respect to that man 🙏

[@hammyh1165]

I ran 8+11 speed Alfine hubs for years on my hardtails before I moved to an ebike . Sealed gears and a motor is going to be the way to go in the future.

[@K1989L]

It's the way to destroy your hub unless it's a Rohloff.

[@MHH3180]

I doubt you can imagine how much I loved this video. You sound so much like me riding with my younger friends. I installed four dozen TSDZ2 last year. Could not be happier. I too prefer IGH's, but I am commuting and running errands. They do have some short comings no one talks about. The chain or belt comes loose...a lot! The tensioner might limit it a little. Oh yeah, the shift cable needs adjusting more often than a deraileur. Internal gears don't need work as often and they use a tougher chain, but when they need work, they are a pain. They need to be rebuilt at least annually. Few shops know how anymore and few home mechanics will want to tackle it.

[@Hoggdoc1946]

You two mates are the best. Really enjoy your videos and the DIY bike seems very capable and priced right as well,

[@Crispyground]

Love this video! Ray's build shows just what you can do with a bit of ingenuity and experimenting. I'm all for a "Ray Builds Bikes" series. Great work to all!

[@embn]

Well said! We're working on another video with Ray right now!

[@gattoflyer]

Great video, great to see 2 generations enjoying themselves together on the trails.

[@iantheinventor8151]

An added benefit of the internal gears is the chain can be thicker as it’s a single cog so the bike won’t get as much stretch in the chain, love to put a hub like that on my HaiBike

[@Moksii_]

Yeah, me too. Love the durability aspect

[@stevewatts5167]

Yes I’m tired of replacing gears and chains every 800 miles even with proper cleaning and lubes, it’s ridiculous and expensive, my KTM is cheaper to run trails!!

[@joebuck4496]

The inferior climbing power is a major con to consider though. I'm undecided on which one to choose (I'm currently ebike shopping), I know that each person puts more emphasis on different pros & cons, but steep hill power is a huge one for me.

[@Cheapsh0t247]

Rays so funny, love the fact that Steve is nervous about topics he raises. Great entertainment, cheers all, and that last comment had me in stitches

[@mtbkmaniac1]

Please Try the Bosch Rohloff E-14 system. The Rohloff internal geared hub has been in service since 2000. Also Kindernay igh. They are a newcomer, but have a thru axle and hydraulic pod shifters.

[@williamzachary3838]

Thank you for these wonderful videos. Though I was resistant to the idea for a long time, I have got my first eMTB thanks to watching you guys and what fun it is!

[@turbolevo8703]

I think a lightweight hub gear may be the way forward. On many full suss bikes the chainstay can be split so a gates toothed belt could be used. The only issue is stretch of the drive train with suspension movement. It would be a shame to have to use a derailleur type idler pulley to keep the belt tight through the suspension range. A mid drive electric gearbox (that has low resistance motor off) is much more difficult than it sounds. Which explains why there isn’t one in the market.

[@guidooppie9404]

Nice to see how respectful you treat your guest!

[@garth62]

Just a note on the Tongsheng, It's easy to install OSF (open source firmware) which will up the cadance limit to 120. I have been using one on my full sus for over a year now with over 1.3k miles with no issues and loving it. BTW excellent vid. Ray is great and for those of us who like tinkering and making in the DIY sector, this a a great comparison. Those TSDZ2 torque motors are extremely versatile and breath new life into an old analogue bike. More of these please

[@webster169]

Could watch videos from ray all day, so knowledgeable about all things electrical and mechanical.

[@dorsetengineering]

Been running my tsdz2 through my Alfine 8 for two years now - no issues

[@michaelgeisert289]

Might be a good way to update my 2009 Giant Seek1 with the Alfine8.

[@dorsetengineering]

@@michaelgeisert289 I use the latest osf, the one for all displays. Sluggish on the downshifts but shifts up under full power without issue.

[@vert_n_dirt]

I can see a lot of those bikes being whipped together now. Want one for sure. Ray's such a legend. Need some embn merch Ray tees

[@samgoatfish]

I had a brompton with a 3 speed internal and have wanted and Mtb with one since. Makes so much sense for a mountain bike. Instant shifting, less flapping around and less to bash on rocks. No more bent hangers. I hope we see more Mtb’s with them soon.

[@buckroger6456]

You are basically stuck with bespoke brands if you want a gearbox bike. I can say you can but these gearhubs in almost any bike.

[@stevenrees6015]

What a man he is. I know a few young whipper snapper roadies who wouldn't keep up with him offroad.

[@embn]

Haha! Ray is brilliant! 👍

[@johnpayne2465]

Great banter, great info, great filming and editing. Plenty of laughter, and it ends with a bacon roll. Nice.

[@tomquimby8669]

it's great, just take some allen keys, front chainrings and some extra chain to change the bike gearing to get up the steep hills then when at the top swap to a larger ring for going down. brilliant design well done Ray.

[@kevinshort3943]

You can have a 2x with the Tongsheng, so no tools needed :)

[@boggybigpants9462]

That was bloody good ….nice one Steve and Ray 👍

[@charliepenman1319]

Outstanding top notch vid Steve. Great to see the enjoyment Ray got from riding the trails and especially the downhill. You need to get Ray set up with a dedicated channel. I would Defo subscribe to it …. I’ll need to work out what mechatronics is first 🙄🙄

[@embn]

Thanks for the support, Charlie! Ray has such a wealth of knowledge. We're sure that Ray will be on the channel again! 👍

[@johnmorrison8351]

I would like to see a gearbox/electric unit combined that bolts in to a “standard” EP8 designed frame…

[@rkstreeter]

Yeah 👍 me too!!

[@boccatxrx5023]

This bloke is a champ, lets see more of him!

[@199beefy]

Ray needs a full time slot on the show

[@stujm8376]

What an amazingly interesting video, truly. I hope I’m still riding when I’m Ray’s age. Engineering know how and he love brown sauce on bacon, he’d be my dad’s best mate.

[@StuntDoubleFPV]

I've been running an Alfine8 in my MTBs for over 10 years now. So many advantages over normal gears. Only one disadvantage - extra weight on the rear

[@acelectricalsecurity]

Do they work with existing shifter or do they need the specific shifter

[@StuntDoubleFPV]

@@acelectricalsecurity there's an 8sp alfine shifter. Not sure if they work with regular shifters

[@buckroger6456]

@@acelectricalsecurity to my knowledge all of them use a dual cable system, so it's a push pull style. So far they don't work with a standard shifter.

[@StellarFella]

Nice exposition of options. Have you tried the PINION system? Their low and centered weight is well liked by mountain bike riders. Look forward to belt-driven bikes.

[@aaron1278]

This is what we are talking about I’m getting one fitted on my emtb once gone through the next cassette

[@kevinhart7945]

Great video, All Ray needs is a Rohloff chain tensioner, use Connex 8s E-bike chain and a PWM suspension dropper post, that would give the hardtail the finishing touches. I have here in Adelaide AU a Cube 160 Stereo full suspension with Rohloff hub, I've thrown cassettes and multiple stretched chains into recycle bin. I get +5000kms out of a chain. No maintenance compared to cassette derailleur set-up. A pleasure to ride and confidence of no mechanical damage or failures in remote bush locations. Can you guys do a full review on the German Conway Cairon SUV FS 5.7 a full suspension stepthrough frame based on EMTB also interested on a review of a Kettler Quadriga Duo SUV EMTB, dual in tube battery, good bush basher. I watch all of your shows, Excellent site. KH Australia 🇦🇺

[@ersonvelasco2531]

Uncle Ray speaking wisdom. Seems like he’s from Shire and hitting MTB trails with Uncle Bilbo. 😅 hope he’ll be a mainstay here. 🙏🏼

[@mrexiges1]

Ray is a star.... really pleased to see gearboxes starting to be accepted as the way to go....my experience with a Rollhof geared bike is that it adds weight in the wrong place but there are several new integrated systems under development and the announcement that Porsche have bought into one of the leading companies. Is really good news ....BUT dont expect to get a £1k bike! ....

[@ellertingvi]

Got to love the Reyman! 🤩

[@thim8009]

Awesome, glad you got him on some single track!

[@davidmckenzie4092]

Any time I see Ray in a vid, I know it's going to be great and this one does it all. I'd take Rays home build over a high end, high priced e-bike any day. We need more Ray builds vids

[@th_js]

That bike might actually be good with a proper fork (at least 20mm longer travel), good brakes, and a dropper!

[@acelectricalsecurity]

Those hub gears definitely clean up the look of the bike, I have always disliked the look of the rear derailleur, if they did one for my thru Axel and it was cheap enough I would definitely be switching to one.

[@scottwatson3996]

Love Ray,s attitude. On the end of your video you say Ray's bike is £7000. Well that's what it sounds like. Love all your videos.

[@iantheinventor8151]

Love to see the Enviolo NuVinci hub put through its paces

[@brianthompson1045]

Great video! One of your best!

[@embn]

Thanks for the support Brian! 👍

[@colincampbell4261]

The tsdz2 with an IGH is a good set up.

[@Dave5843-d9m]

Check out the Allen Milyard downhill mountain bike. It has a centre mounted Shimano hub with a 1:1 chain running inside the single side swing arm. The chain is oil lubricated and needs no adjustment.

[@milanobus]

In a similar setup a Gates Carbon Drive Belt will give you you an even better package. No lubrication, quiet and lasts longer.

[@Dave5843-d9m]

I have a 2004 Cannondale Jekyl 1000 with Lefty fork, Hope Mono brakes and Rholoff 14 speed gear hub. Despite it being “old” it makes me look good off-road. That’s saying something.

[@matt45540]

Seems like this is what I'll have to do on my rail five. My rear hubs going out so after the next trip I think this will be on the maintenance docket

[@lutomson3496]

That with a belt drive is great there are a few around

[@Ruffest]

Cant beat a Ray vid. Get an old dh derailleur for keeping the tension on that chain. 👍

[@kevinshort3943]

Or just take some links out the chain?

[@Ruffest]

@@kevinshort3943 you can't tension it like a bmx.

[@garymartin557]

one of the most entertaining videos for some time.

[@Digital.Done.Right.]

I ride a Rohlof with a Gates belt with no maintenance, cleaning, chain replacement or cogs. Simple but expensive.

[@buffalomind6838]

I have two bikes one with a derailleur, and a single speed. They both get the job done well, but with the single speed it requires me to be more athletic in having to stand on the bike more often which I enjoy. However with the derailleur it sucks as it falls off pretty regularly, and requires so much attention compared to a single speed. And and of course it has so much of the drive system exposed to the elements which can be a pain mentally to know you have to attend to it ever so often, or rust etc will occur. An IGH is the best of having a single speed along with having the ability to instantly shift both in general, and quite literally on a hill/flat whatever to be in the lowest, or highest gear without physically having to have a bunch of feet to shift when many times it is not practical. and then you add in a mid drive to the bike and your abilities fly off the charts. I just want my system in the future to be on the lightest bike I can afford as I want the bike to behave like a lightweight speed bike until I decide to switch either manually, or motorly? to a leg saving or even cruising mode with again the motor. Thanks guys for putting out a good video that shows the benefits to having both systems added to ones ride.

[@deejayprinciple]

Nice video there. Kindly make a video on the Kindernay 14 speed internal gear hub.

[@tri-seeker2753]

careful there, As far as I remeber, Shimano's Alfines are not declared as MTB hubs, they are more like "road commuter" type of hub. For a MTB you should go for already proven Rohloff or still new Kindernay... But those are WAY more pricey...

[@Mr.Gee3]

Hub gears are great for the City. I have a Nexus 7 and wouldn't want anything else. But, it have doubts about using a hub in anything MTB related. Gear Hubs don't like shifting under load, and I had a couple scares while shifting going uphill.

[@stuartwebb5978]

Just rode sydney to hobart on a surly troll, rohloff and bbshd. Unbeatable

[@akbarramzan7436]

The cadence issue is solved! With the open source firmware. It uses field weakening to allow higher RPM!

[@brianthompson1045]

Somebody should be hiring this man as a consultant! Moving ebiking forward from his garage. Why reinvent the wheel when you can tap into years of experience and knowledge of a seasoned expert!

[@rabnori4836]

My shimano 8 and Bosch power line, are brilliant . 😊

[@davidking3699]

This is the future, but I have always commented that the gates belt drive is the solution - lasts thousands of Kms, no stretch, no oil or cleaning besides washing with a hose, no grease on clothes... way stronger than a chain... just need frames suitable for the belt. Hub gears, belt drive and a quality motor best option until mid-mount motors come with gears integrated.

[@hugobci]

the veer brand sells a split belt system, suitable for frames designed for chains.

[@chrismade123]

Its so much better then the standard commuter e-bike from the discounter!

[@JohnRushworth]

Most enjoyable. Smiles all round. Try mango chutney on a bacon roll guys.

[@JohnMFlores]

Thanks for this review.

[@saracen6191]

Rays a legend he speaks we listen

[@robertwood4665]

More from Ray he's a star

[@lupuslupus8971]

I put this motor to giant tance x, bat i got open source firmware 120rpm and i think to put alfine 11 it weal be good setup i think ✌️

[@scottiehanbacks6595]

Thankyou for the video learned a lot

[@PVVI2015]

Thoroughly enjoyed that😊

[@DJ-jp6xc]

It would be great to put a hub gear in the turbo levo! Great video

[@jimzenglish1]

Bike manufacturers need to put some effort into tailored drivechains for e-mountain bikes rather than just shoving a 12 speed derailleur on which wears out rapidly and the two larger rings never get used.

[@JimSowers]

Please list the specific part numbers in the description (not in another page somewhere else).

[@mountainlion4853]

I love it when the elderly get all technical hehe

[@kymwenham2664]

Now is the time to step it up to the next level with a 14 speed Rohloff hub and Gates carbon belt which can be found on Reise and Mueller EMTB's. The future of EMTB's.

[@buckroger6456]

One of the magic combos

[@kjeldschouten-lebbing6260]

You really need the opensource firmware installed though... Almost all downsides are long fixed by now :)

[@JasonLowderTheRanga]

I've just come inside from changing my 12spd chain, cassette and replacing the clutch on my derailleur. 1665 for a Alpine hub vs 1179 for a SLX Cassette, Derailleur, and free hub I would imagine the challenge for Shimano would be in the durability space when people send it extra hard. If this got up as an idea, it would have quite an impact on the aftermarket parts market and how manufacturers build their wheels.

[@michaelh5942]

I have the tsdz2 in a Cube Stereo Hybrid 140 Gen 4 625 frame with a 700wh Batterie. Open source Software and all ist fine😉

[@PetrolheadTours]

Steve, I’m regularly at FOD on my R&M Delite Mountain Rohloff - let me know if you fancy having a go. Bosch gen 4, electronic shift Rohloff 14 speed, Gates belt drive, Fox suspension, Magura brakes, etc. Would love to hear your thoughts on it.

[@kevinhart7945]

Having used Homage E-14 shifter Gen4 on hills and tight off road inclines compared to Rohloff manual twist shifter on my EMTB the electronic shifting is slower and gears tend to easily jam an grind, I much prefer the manual twist shift, far quicker selection. E-14 great for touring or road use only. K

[@marccarter1350]

I love my Rohloff! But its a heavy beast on my Ox of a touring bike. I can get it up to speed above 30km, but its hard to hold it there. I have riden it hard, 20km average over 100km, but i had to push it. I would love to try one on a much lighter ride.

[@jaredmonk5328]

You guys should do a series with Ray where he builds a bike to compete with a top end bike. Kind of like Pink bike's budget vs baller but actually good. Ray just picks the best parts for the money and we get an episode for each part he adds. Each episode someone could run the bike down the same track and see how much speed you could gain. The high end bike could be the same every time and Ray would win if he could beat the time of the high end bike and if the rider thought it was the better bike for less than the cost of the high end bike.

[@hugobci]

I love my urban bike with shimano 7s internal gear hub!

[@iantheinventor8151]

No video of Ray fitting & setting up the shimano gear system?

[@ashpunting]

The cognoscenti, brilliant very funny and pleasant video plus I've built my first electric mountain bike BBSO2B 750w mid-drive with 48v battery it flys up yhem steep hills just wot I need after my Hip replacement I'm still laughing at cognoscenti 😅🤣👍🏾

[@waynemarlow2682]

Psst with changing 1Bit of firmware you can unleash the motor, run 48 volts on a 36 volt unit and cadence is 120, run the Freeware available and you get alsorts of niceties including almost unlimited means to fettle the motor.

[@TheGolfdaily]

I am all for hub gears because I absolutely hate derailleur gears!

[@BuntaBall40]

Great video mate

[@kenmaruska5818]

I think the IGH is being torque protected by having a final drive ratio from the front to rear sprockets. But given the inherent under drive ratio of planet gear IGHs it's almost necessary to do this to have any reasonable top riding speed. An IGH should be designed to take the full torque of the best mid drives (160nM) and a rider standing on the cranks which can add another 160nM or more. Sadly no IGHs are rated for that which is why they fail on some set-ups and the industry doesn't talk about this much.

[@msawyer110]

Good to get beginners into emtb

[@olrenison]

Ray is the best 😊🙏

[@bb7115]

Hi. Would love to fit the internal hub gears to my haibike trekking 10. Any links for the set up used in this video. Thanks

[@ashpunting]

Ray's bike would perform better with the bafang mid-drive motor and the twisted gear shifter, but I still think Ray is number,1 💙💯👍🏾