DND Dummy Tries Pathfinder 2E! - First Impressions

[@tyrusdalet]

As a GM, the most satisfying feeling I’ve ever had from my players was when the bonus/penalty system finally clicked for them. From strugging to hit a 21 AC enemy to: Demoralising, Flanking it, Aiding the Fighter, and casting Bless. Went from 11+ to hit, and nat 20 to crit; to 5+ to hit and 15+ to crit! If they crit on the Aid, in addition to their existing critical Demoralise, then it would have been 4+/14+! Flanking = Flatfooted = -2 circumstance penalty to AC. Frightened 2 = -2 status penalty to all rolls, saves, and AC Aid success = +1 circumstance bonus to the attack Bless = +1 status bonus to the attack

[@taterenforth6433]

To make character creation easier I suggest using Pathbuilder 2e. Unless you're using a pet or optional rules the free version has everything you need.

[@chrismoore8177]

Pathbuilder or Demiplane Nexus are amazing with helping character creation.

[@okagisama]

Honestly even most long-time players of PF2e don't use the original character sheet, which is very confusing and/or too dense. I hpe they streamline it for the version they're remaking.

[@procrastinatinggamer]

I think they did say in an interview that the sheet’s one of the things they’re fixing.

[@dmeep]

so what sheet would you recommend? is there an online thing like dnd beyond that takes care of most of the admin for you? and if there isnt what sheets are popular?

[@procrastinatinggamer]

@@dmeep Pathbuilder 2e's a good Beyond-alike character builder. Need to pay to unlock some situational stuff like animal companions or certain variant rules, but that's just a one-off payment (I think about $5-ish) not a subscription. Wanderer's Guide is another good one but I've found it tends to lag a fair bit at times.

[@The_Yukki]

I find the pf2e sheet needlessly decorated.

[@DeclanFeeney]

Can you recommend a sheet? Which sheet is ‘best’ if it’s not the official one?

[@kryptonianguest1903]

Highly recommend printing out a couple of conditions cheat sheets. Also, because your item bonus only changes when you get a better item, you can just write it on your character sheet and forget about about it. So, the practical maximum number of modifiers you can have on one roll is two bonuses and two penalties. And it's very rare to have all of those at once.

[@jmangan17]

i enjoy hearing newer generations takes on these, i tried 5e and appreciate what it has done in regards to easing the entry into the hobby for new players. and i enjoy PF2e for being a little truer to older versions of D&D but more streamlined. but if you do find you enjoy the crunchiness, and you like the big damn hero aspects, find yourself someone who has D&D 3.5..... the biggest, baddest, crunchiest heroes of all time.

[@rednidedni3875]

PF2 and 3.5e are still very very different types of games. PF2e has a focus on teamwork, strategy and meaningful choice, while 3.5e has a focus on power fantasy, breaking the game and outlandish, elaborate builds

[@jmangan17]

@@rednidedni3875 one could argue that, as these are roleplaying games, the "focus" you mention is entirely up to the players and not inherent to the system. and game breaking is a bit of a misnomer, as it's not the game that fails to meet the ability of the party, but the DM. having DM'd and played in 3.5 i will admit that it took more effort to DM effectively in 3.5 as the variability is great and you can't "phone it in". but at the time, though new players were always appreciated, the TTRPG focus was not on adding new players in large numbers, but giving folks as many options as possible. i've heard a lot of people complain that 3.5 was overpowered, but i want to point out that the ONLY time something is actually unbalanced is when some party members are significantly more powerful than others. this breaks the party dynamic. but if everyone in the party is roughly on the same level then all other balance "issues" are squarely planted on the DM's shoulders and it's up to them to plan accordingly. there is one caveat though, and that is, i wasn't aware until the last couple of years that D&D has become so mainstream popular that a LOT of folks use modules.... i've played in numerous groups over the years and on constant has always been you play one or two modules when you start out and then those go away and you learn to make your own campaigns/adventures. i have played for decades and i honestly have played exactly two modules/adventures, and that's it. so if your group tended to run through a string of level dependent pre-created modules i could see that being an issue.

[@questmarq7901]

Try Foundry Vtt. 200 volunteers coded and automated the whole system. Mods also are very cool, but keep it low (40-50)

[@kyleharder3654]

Good video! Yea I find each RPG system scratches a different itch

[@WiraThe1]

Also pathbuilder2e is an amazing tool thats great to make NPCs or characters to build! (Not endorsed, just a great tool)

[@questmarq7901]

Care with using the rules for PCs to build NPCs

[@NaskaRudd]

Fantastic video! Our group also took a few months to master the system but now we can see the picture of how all the cogs and gears connect, my group can take advantage of them. Knowing what conditions to inflict when, knowing what help/aid/teamwork actions to take and when, etc

[@thethingwithfins]

As someone who has played both extensively (granted I played pf2e very early on and have gotten back into it recently) i have found that pathfinder 2nd edition has rules for everything it seems. And yes there is a ton of more customization. But a lot of the options I see are things that I end up thinking should have just been stuff you could already do. Or the system is neat but it doesn't feel RIGHT. Familiars for example. I love the idea of the familiar power system to add on to a basic creature and give it the stuff that makes it feel unique. But I hate dealing with the need to get basic things an animal should be able to do as required powers when we only have 2-4 powers. I've seen feats where you can do things such as make an impression with a diplomacy check and its just like... why could you not do that before? Or feats that give manuevers like being able to shove someone or look at them mean to intimidate them. I won't lie some of the customization is nice. I love the fact we got versatile heritages and stuff for example. But so many times I find the options I'm being presented with to be frankly trash. Pathfinder 2e seems to me that they were really trying to make a BALANCED game and tried too hard. I don't want to even touch any of the casters aside from sorcerer because of the different spell prep system. We hardly go a week without stumbling onto a new rule in pf2e (and often one I don't actually like at least personally.) For example iIve played pf2e for MONTHS and we only just found out diagonal movement had rules for making it cost more then straight lines (because you move farther supposedly) Unfortunately I'm stuck in the position of my group really seems to like pf2e (and about demanded to switch after the wizards scandals of the last year) and I either have to play pathfinder or just stop playing at all pretty much. DnD is admittedly lacking in places, but I like that it leaves you space to homebrew in things exactly as you want them.

[@rednidedni3875]

Regarding familiars, how else would you handle that? If you have some types of animals (e.g. Owl) that just have more abilities innately than others (e.g. Rat), without some cost attatched, there'd be no reason to pick the one with less abilities. You don't need a feat to make an impression or shove people, there's only feats that make you better at those things. Intimidating someone with a look is specifically a combat-oriented feat, allowing you to scare foes across language barriers mid-combat every time with no penalties. Ultimately, balance is extremely important. Like, off-the-charts important. Having a game with a lot of mechanics be unbalanced introduces an absurd amount of complications: Experienced players can invalidate inexperienced players over having chosen the more powerful options, GMs struggle to keep the game functional as the guidelines become increasingly inaccurate, characters and combat become more same-y as people gravitate to the more powerful options, and god forbid those powerful options are the less interesting ones. The question is just, how much are you willing to sacrifice to get to this balance? I feel like PF2 didn't sacrifice a lot all things considered. Different options are very mechanically distinct, abilities are relatively "safe" but also very meaningful still, it's still a mechanically very colorful game. You can also homebrew in pf2e, just like in 5e! It's just that most people don't feel the need to, since the rules aren't really lacking (99 times out of 100) - they just may clash with some folk's taste

[@1987ajam]

I felt the character creation for PathFinder was much easier to follow compared to 5e. The user friendliness of it was nice.

[@jarydf]

PF2e has so many options I am not excited to choose.

[@timjohnson2533]

Always enjoy hearing what other people's takes are who are new to the game too. I started Pathfinder 2e about 5 months ago and am enjoying the hell out of running it. I find it's actually far easier to write custom adventures for since the GM-support is first rate. It took us a while to get used to the 'team tactics' part of the game since the two systems we used previously were very focused on just running in and beating the daylights out of things (or getting the daylights beat out of you). I'm really stoked to see that Demiplane just started the open beta of their Pathfinder Nexus character builder. From what I can tell, it's D&D Beyond for Pathfinder, built partly by the same guy who first started D&D Beyond (Adam Bradford). The downside is that their servers are getting hammered right now.. Sort of a good problem to have though.

[@TheRewyn]

The big issue with 5E is that it *is* a very complicated rules heavy game, that tries to act like its not. It's just that its many rules don't work very well, and often hides its complexity behind a curtain. Level 1 play is easy, but level 15 play? The boss with its lair actions, legendary actions, silvery barbs and counter spell spam going off left and right during the battle? It gets messy fast. PF2E is the same style of game, but the rules work very well, and largely how complicated it is at level 1 is how complicated it will be at level 15. Sure there are more things, but it grows horizontally and not vertically.

[@realdragon]

I honestly lean into less rules than more rules. I run Mork Borg it's really simple system, the all the rules literally fit on 1 page. Playing 5e we stopped for few minutes because we had to think how rules work, this is not the case when you have less rules because you can just ask "Hey DM can I do that?" and you will get response "yes", "no" or "roll for it" instead "let me check the rules". Character creation is also super easy but when you die so often it would be horrible to spend hour creating character just for them do die by being stabbed in intestines by fresh skeleton

[@IronicCliche]

Nothing in the rules says you can't play two systems.

[@doomhippie6673]

I think you nailed it with the statement that both games aim at different audiences. Having a morbid fascination with PF2 I have built various characters and found the so greatly acclaim of almost endless choices not quite as open as I had hoped. It seems to me you have to focus a lot more on one specific direction than in DnD5e where you can basically play to your heart's desire. Since Pathfinder has a fairly steep curve of numbers you need to achieve, you really have to make sure you meet those numbers which doesn't allow for much leeway, taking a little of this and that. Plus I really don't like the "I play one little cog in a well oiled machines that's called party" approach. What happens if the character dies? End of the party because now nobody can fill that role? However I like a system that reduces the potency of magic. Unfortunately PF2 is a lot more into lots of small magic devices (weapon runes etc) that just make magic feel so unbelievably mundane. I guess my greatest gripe with PF2 is that I absolutely detest the aesthetics of the game.Lots of flashy pics in the books - and many seem to be lacking the details that draw me in (like a painted miniature for tabletop that is painted to a tabletop standard: looks good from far away but don't look closely. And that is even worse when it comes to the character sheet. I find it uncomfortable to look at from any distance. It's a cluttering mess that honestly pull me out of any immersion I might had during the game. And no matter how many alternative character sheets I have looked up - they are all hideous. I find it fascinating how much that last part actually bothers me. So much in fact that even though I have bought the starter set, the core rules and the first monster book - I never felt like I wanted to play the game. And it's not the rules. It's the outer appearance.