Do Aerodynamics matter for Ultra Distance Bikepacking?

Aerodynamics for bikepacking, are you mad?! Well funnily enough, it does make a big difference, so if you're doing an ultra race or just want to get back before it gets dark and possibly mugged by a gang of kangaroos, don't use panniers.
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[@Cade_Media]

Summary: 2 bottles (750ml per side) - 3Watts @ 25kmh - 3.5mins over 200km - for a 50kmh tt 2 bottles = 20Watts Front Bar Bag - 8.5Watts @ 25kmh - X mins over 200km AeroPack (~20Litres) - 2.5Watts FASTER @25kmh - 2x Side Panniers (22Litres per side) - 7 Watts @ 25kmh Full setup - wedge frame bag, handlebar bag, 2 bottles on fork, aeropack and 2 side panneirs 36 Watts on - 17.5mins over 200km ride

[@djcald]

Hey Francis, Have you tested with the camera on your back?

[@Cade_Media]

Not yet, I should've sneaked that!

[@KoenMiseur]

U should do this test with clip-on bars, alot of long distance bikepackers use these, thing that would also make alot of difference!

[@Cade_Media]

@@KoenMiseur definitely! Unfortunately it was a bit of a rush to get things ready for this, buy next time!

[@HenryAshman]

@@Cade_Media especially since I've started seeing at least one brand do a front bag designed to sit under the bar extensions. Guessing the same applied to top tube bags as well? Though given mine is basically hidden by the stem, I imagine that's pretty decent

[@1039736]

Man this answered EXACTLY the very niche question I had about adding twin water bottle up front. Great Work!

[@mr_musette]

Looking forward to Lawrence's edition, coming early 2021

[@Cade_Media]

😂😂😂😂

[@bbikerlawrence]

Joe B hahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahhaahhahawhhahahahahahhaahhahahahaah

[@SM_525]

That's harsh, Joe. True, but harsh haha.

[@mikeanders7885]

I'm still waiting for project USA movie.

[@LordMelbury1953]

Joe B Indeed

[@Jaydad4701]

That was seriously cool !!! I bike pack and never race but it has me thinking about how I will re configure my bag set up!! Thank you for sharing, looking for the Dogs version of this 👍🏻👍🏻

[@Paulpedaling]

That was interesting, surprised about the bottles on the fork, liked the frame bag and bag mounted behind you.

[@markreams3192]

Very informative video. I bought the Tailfin X rack and panniers. I knew there would be an aero penalty of some sort. I bought them for the ease of access while riding and their capacity for holding most of what I need for a trip from Portland OR to Newport Beach CA. Maybe I should add the AeroPack just decrease wind resistance and divide everything between 3 bags. These bags and rack are rock solid on the bike. They’re way better than the tail wag you get from a seat pack!

[@stephenjeffreys4219]

Love the intro with moving reflections on the high rises - nice. And wow watt savings - who would have thought. Thanks

[@RafaelFaenir]

I just went on a trans-alpine bike-packing trip with a friend who is generally fitter than I am... but I had my gravel bike with a similar bike-packing setup than this you tested, and he had a touring bike with big classic panniers... and the difference was huge, he could not keep up on the flats or downhills, and it took us easily one hour more than planed every day, and after 5 days we had to shorten one of the days so he could rest a bit... and I was mostly riding in Zone 1 or 2 (when not going up). Part of it is the bike itself, but definitely the aerodynamic (including the rider's position) made a massive difference. I should have sent him this video before the trip =P

[@smellyelle8422]

I can see aerodynamics in bikepacking/ultra distance is gonna get really serious. I reckon Tailfin should start making more aero panniers for their racks. If anyone is going to boss making those, it'll be Tailfin. Awesome video btw🖒

[@maxsievers8251]

Jan Heine got aero gains from his front bag while being in an aero tuck. He also tours with just a front bag and up to three bottles.

[@Zzyyxx22]

I’ll bet the watt saving from the tail fin is the reason Sunweb are racing with ass savers this year.

[@jamessheard5498]

Great video, looking to start doing some long distance in the next 12 months. Really helpful 👍🏼👍🏼

[@westmancoat]

Great video, I'm glad someone has finally looked at this in a video. The gains from aero are definitely worth looking at. I'm going to be an arse now and put this out for discussion. At 12:51 you discuss the gains from a strong tail wind and Xavier states the wattage savings would increase? This doesn't take into account that drag force is based on 'relative air speed' (the speed difference between you (bike speed) and the air, which is rarely 0 kph) i.e if you're riding at 35 kph and the tailwind is 20 kph, you are still only cutting through the air at 15 kph. Sadly, a 36 Watt saving would only work if you were holding a steady 35 kph into static air i.e. no tail wind.

[@AnnoyingDadGames123]

Cant wait to watch Lawrences video premiering spring 2021

[@74_Green]

Looking forward to July, so I can see Lawrences video!!! :p

[@Cade_Media]

😁😁😁

[@cypriano8763]

big rear bag + full frame bag, got it. no handle bar bag, not panniers

[@dafred9898]

Pizzas are aero! Exceptional news.

[@Offgrid531]

many thanks. fork bottles for me then. The internet really can answer the most obscure questions.

[@machmutdoener]

Such a cool video and i got an idea: What if you get rid of the side and front pack and put two large 20 Liter bags on top of each other onto a rear luggage rack? This should in theory generate a better airflow, or am i missing something?

[@davidmartin305]

Dylan Johnson 'My 2020 Gravel bike set up' and his view on aero bars, maybe help to offset the panniers and front bag.

[@trevorhayes5414]

SkinGrowsBack should come up with a longer/narrower/aero handlebar bag. I use a woho rear bag stabilizer (wohobike.com) that you can attach water bottles to, as another bottle storage solution. And you may need a similar stab for the long front bag idea to stop or limit it swinging side-to-side.

[@JourdainColeman]

"I have hairy legs" 😂

[@dyzoly]

Panniers are gold off road, because they keep the center of g lower!

[@waynesbutler7834]

I would think in the bigger picture being aero would make a huge difference in long distant cycling especially for the inexperienced who usually pack way more then needed . Pretty hard to pedal up and coast down hills when you have huge panniers and what ever you can strap to your bike including the kitchen sink . Pack your bike light with a Visa card and something to wipe your ass with on top of a good travel plan and you will certainly arrive before your competition . lol ..

[@phildavis1825]

Love the Boarbman centre, if id have known you guys were just down the road i would rode over and bought you a coffee.

[@paulk232]

Quality content.👌👌

[@richardharker2775]

It's easy to get fanatical about aero and the figures speak for themselves but there is that trade off with practicality. What do you need, what do you want? I don't want to be mugged by kangaroos either.

[@errornogo]

I mean this is a steady state wind tunnel the aero defo doesn't speak for itself.

[@TheMurmuringGolem]

Adding aerobars would allow you to flip the front bag and reduce its frontal area

[@Cade_Media]

Good call, lots of extra possibilities with aero bars

[@maxsievers8251]

You want to access the front bag while riding so you cannot hide it under the handle bar.

[@TheMurmuringGolem]

@@maxsievers8251 depends on what you pack in it

[@Rafa.veganism_bikes]

Great great video, thanks Mr

[@stuartsfew5626]

Next time you’re in Worcestershire you need to ride here. Some great roads. 👍🏻

[@dyzoly]

After 7 minutes: yaay, I can finally put my sleeping bag under the handlebars....after 9 minutes: never going to put anything on the handlebars.

[@jasonwills6694]

I like to ride further. Nice work!

[@christianiseli6099]

What about the camera on the back...:-)

[@Vo-iDstudio]

How come you never seem to test the camera bump for The Basement boys? Seems hugely relevant for the pair if you. 👍🏽

[@Cade_Media]

Yes it would have been so good! Next time.

[@elpina587]

How dare you show up with chewbacca legs!

[@shanew634]

That was really informative. Tail fin it is then for bike packing.

[@lyndasnart7823]

Great info good watch😎👍🇦🇺

[@brandonkoh8361]

But do frame pack bags make you faster? Thats the question I came here for tbh

[@thomashemel]

Thanks Francis, great content :) If round bottles is not aero, then do we know how much we'd loose with two 1L bottles in the frame triangle ? (this is wht I do :p ) Anf if frme bags are well aero, then do we save a lot by putting a watter pocket (such as in a camelback ?) ? I guess that could be a massive aero gain ? (and we could carry 3L of water and avoid stopping)

[@machmutdoener]

I got another idea: What if you get rid of the front and side bags and put two large 20l Bag on top of each other on a rear luggage carrier? This should result in a better airflow as well right?

[@markvanakkeren6985]

Do you have the individual shreds published anywhere? Particularly curious in the higher yaw figures. Tanks!

[@Cade_Media]

"We do have them but I’d have to go and parse everything out manually as our data processor does it automatically when we throw the raw numbers into the processor on the day" So probs not sorry!

[@Cade_Media]

(from Xavier)

[@bbikerlawrence]

Aero AF bruuuuuu✌️

[@garybird8646]

Gravel tyres vs road tyres a gazillion watts

[@ravenkiteguy]

Very interesting. Do you think if the forward facing sides of the panniers had a round shape rather than flat that would help lower the resistance significantly?

[@JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ]

What about the watt impact of the camera strap?

[@chris_noswe]

"ultra distance bikepacking" Cute. We call it bikepacking, whether or not it's an overnighter or 3 month tour. Dork.

[@Richz2]

Not good news that the Boardman centre is closing down☹️

[@7gibbens]

Sorry but I ride with a double triathlon water bottle rack behind my saddle and my seat bag sits snugly between with no bag wobble. Win, win. More aero and no bag wobble.🚴👍🇦🇺

[@waynosfotos]

British rivalry; there is a certain, said engineer, that has a few colourful compliments regarding Aerocoach. 😁 Well i do have a few observations/questions to ask. 1. Was the front wheel rotating at the set speed as spokes cause a lot of drag and 2. the wind at slower speeds swirls more. How was all this allowed for in the calculations? Any opinions/comments on aerodynamics on bikes i would be glad to hear, as long as it is supported with physics.

[@Cade_Media]

I can only answer the first question, which is yes. You'll have to ask Aerocoach about the second - I don't understand how exactly their protocol works. I do know that they test outside just as much as they test inside and the results match up well, so even the indoor tests reflect turbulent flow. It's much quicker testing in the tunnel than outdoors too... And a whole lot less grim at this time of year

[@waynosfotos]

@@Cade_Media thanks Francis.

[@lasauskaite]

Soooooooo interesting!!!!

[@moodtherapist]

Swinging your win dangles about.

[@thebikepackingadventurer]

I have the tailfin setup and flying to Geneva and riding back to Bournemouth on Sunday. Free speed albeit tiny amount, maybe I should shave my monkey hairy legs too

[@elijahkwon422]

Nathan Ansell Coronavirus making things cheap?

[@thebikepackingadventurer]

Elijah Kwon haha, no. Just a week of cycling, 730 miles home. Long commute

[@elijahkwon422]

Nathan Ansell Good luck Mate

[@thebikepackingadventurer]

Got back okay. Ended up changing the route drastically. 641 miles in 6 days and made the last ferry home

[@rafaeldegiacomoaraujo8778]

Linear wind direction exists? I really can't believe that this is even a topic that is still being discussed in 2020. You would be better focusing on trialling your kit out in the real world. If it looks aero, it will be enough for bike packing.

[@Cade_Media]

That's why the test at angles in the tunnel, outside and in velodromes too.

[@rafaeldegiacomoaraujo8778]

@@Cade_Media that still does not reflect turbulent flow. Its a separate topic. You should test in the wild :)

[@Cade_Media]

I just said they test outdoors too... Furthermore the results match up when they test outdoors, proving the protocol reflects turbulent flow!

[@rafaeldegiacomoaraujo8778]

@@Cade_Media it will be interesting to compare what you expect to be aero vs what is actually aero. In my opinion practicality beats aero (within reason) as spending less time on the road side to get ready is key. I would suggest to try travelling without the autopause as a way to assess that on multiple trials in a circular course. It was interesting to hear your experience with the pannier and how quick you found to pack it in the morning compared to bags. Most people racing would solve that by packing all sleeping layers by just rolling it but that causes issues with moisture. Keeping your head down and having things slip streamed will always be more aero. Thanks for your replies. :)

[@Cade_Media]

@@rafaeldegiacomoaraujo8778 absolutely. Now Tailfin have released the aeropack I think it's the best and fastest solution for both packing and aero (after the tunnel test for sure!). It's roll top just like the panniers so unlike a standard seatpack you don't have to take it off the bike to faff around with it

[@jonpoon3896]

Should’ve also tested carrying a camera

[@markrushton1516]

It's all a bit what-if tho'. I suspect the harder things about ultra distance would be the mental/comfort/nutrition aspects. But I get the watts issue. Luckily I'm never going to have to find out. That Tailfin system with the aeropack might be good www.tailfin.cc/product/seat-packs/aeropack-s-rigid-seat-pack/

[@khairulazharmdmustfa1452]

It’s been a while since I last saw Lewis & Dan in your video. U guys don’t hang out anymore?

[@Cade_Media]

Good old Lewis and Dan

[@linslins4860]

Does expensive brand bike matters when you have covid19?

[@ixxgxx]

what if you're naked

[@thomascyron1773]

Is the engineer related to your mechanic? They sound similar and the engineer seems like a bearded version of the mechanic. 😂

[@oliverjohnsonuk]

👍

[@benbolton625]

Have you also tested for drag effect of (Richmond) park gates being randomly locked? ;)

[@Cade_Media]

I was sooooo close to being late. Hope you made it ok too ;)!!

[@benbolton625]

Francis Cade ha ha even though it was early I could sense you were stressed. Thought you might have been late for a flight. I was OK although much prefer the Park to the A3 😏

[@Cade_Media]

@@benbolton625 I feel bad for the guy stuck inside!

[@benbolton625]

Francis Cade oh yes, forgot about him...all the way back to Richmond Gate...

[@antiman1677]

What about handlebar bags?

[@Cade_Media]

That was a bar bag, he called it a frame bag in error sorry!

[@alexball6271]

howd u manage to make frosted tips look cool they weren't even cool in 2008

[@Cade_Media]

I think this is a compliment 😂

[@georgeservanis8149]

Where is the kink to the other dudes site for his aero fit?

[@Cade_Media]

It's not live yet, but it's the bubble at the end of the video to his channel! Lawrence Carpenter

[@callumsmith434]

Did you put your camera on your back for the tests?

[@Cade_Media]

No... But I should've tested it afterwards! More excuses I can use !

[@callumsmith434]

No worries, would be interesting to know if/what the penalty is 🤔 Great vid as always!

[@Cade_Media]

I would like to say it's at least 100 watts and I'd be a world tour rider without it

[@jonpoon3896]

You need Chris with his aero bars and Lauf fork. Also, you need a bigger beard to be a bikepacker

[@31.8mm]

puting many stuff on the back affect handling ryt?

[@Cade_Media]

Potentially. It's definitely good to spread the load through the bike

[@31.8mm]

i have tried it, anything i do when out off saddle became terrible, especially dancing on a climb or sprint (if u do train whilst commuting), i need more effort to hold the momentum caused by the mass that goes to the sides repeatedly. but on a corner, the handling got "damped", the bike feels more stable.

[@31.8mm]

i havent tried frame bag, but kinda curious how it feels on a cross wind

[@Cade_Media]

@@31.8mm I don't notice the frame bag in winds at all. I know your pain though, when I was running panniers the bike has a mind of it's own, handles so weird!

[@31.8mm]

@@Cade_Media good to know, thanks. maybe i'll try custom frame bag sometime.

[@Richz2]

Shaved legs = 8w’s !

[@RaceJan]

#Vlogception :)

[@Cade_Media]

The banned word!!!

[@jameshawkins5843]

Ultra aero last

[@seanbarman]

Just buy an aeropod !

[@SM_525]

Francis, hairy legs? Say it isn't so?

[@Jakob-o8f]

Wow the video quality is awful

[@LordMelbury1953]

I saw Afro not Aero.. smudge on my lenses, but why not an Afro helmet. Oh and please don’t send the “Sussexes” back to Canada 🇨🇦.

[@Cade_Media]

Afro definitely not very aero, but shaped into a teardrop fairing it could be used to save mad watts

[@andycorso8498]

skin suits for bike packing.........what about Audax? Must be some gains for these folk?

[@Cade_Media]

😂

[@trevorhayes5414]

and aero helmets, aero shoe covers, all in a plaid design of course! 😁

[@basvlaskamp]

For the solo audax / ultra rides aero is definitly a big advantage. Saving energy is crucial if you want to feel good at the end. So aero wheels, skinsuits and tt bars are the future :)

[@Kansloos]

This only shows the savings when you get a 'perfect' headwind, but in a real life scenario the wind/air passing your bike is much more turbulent then a windtunnel.

[@Cade_Media]

That's why they test outside too

[@suburbancyclist1535]

I think GCN has a video of gear from other angles too. But it was comparing backpack, seat bag, and panniers

[@_________4292]

Helloo

[@_________4292]

great topic, about bottle on fork was surprise for me.

[@sauroman1]

Go vegan

[@theunbannedhacker1237]

So basically give or take fifteen minutes, they don't effect you at all. Good job wasting everyone's time and money to figure out something that I assumed was common sense. You're a national treasure.