Do Authors Owe Anything to Their Readers?

[@thallus23]

The thumbnail is DIABOLICAL 😂

[@Derekivery]

We are owned nothing. But authors are owned nothing either. There is this subtext that by saying "Authors don't owe their audiences work" that seems to suggest audiences don't have a right to complain. If Savage Cake delivery promises me a cake, and doesn't deliver, they don't "OWE" me a cake in the sense that I can't go to court and sue them for one... but I can go to my friends and say "Savage Cake Delivery Sucks! They make promises and don't keep them! They are lazy and have terrible work ethics! Don't trust Savage Cake Delivery they are the worst." It is 1000% my right to be upset about someone making a promise and not delivering. They don't OWE me a cake, but I don't OWE them my respect.

[@redrasegarden]

Don’t they actually owe you the cake? Sure, they didn’t say they would make the cake themselves, but they said they would get you a cake.you might have even given them money after they said they’d get the cake for you.

[@Derekivery]

@@redrasegarden well if I gave them money yes they do in fact owe me the cake. But since this is a metaphor for GRRM work, the metaphor would be, I was going to pay for the cake upon delivery. In which case they wouldn't OWE me the cake. But the idea that I can't complain is what I find misguided, because had they not promised cake, I could have gone somewhere else and gotten pie or brownies. Legally I can't force them to give me cake, but ethnically I can tell others they screwed me over and wasted my time.

[@themikx2939]

Honestly best answer to that question. He doesn’t owe us anything but it sure would be nice if we got a conclusion already

[@ImmenseAndrew]

It’s like if a baker promises to bake a whole cake, but can only supply half of it to you now. So you buy and receive half of the cake with the expectation that the other half will be baked. You haven’t paid for the other half yet, but you bought the first half with the expectation that the second half would eventually be coming for you to also purchase. Then that second half never comes, and you might feel cheated, because you wanted a full cake and probably would never have agreed to buy a half cake if that was all you were going to receive. Obviously the baker could die or be incapacitated in some way such that he is unable to bake the second half, but while he’s fully able to do so, you might understandably be annoyed if the baker feels little to no obligation to bake the other half for you.

[@nykki21]

No one is owed anything by anyone. Period. We choose to be people of our word and people reciprocate in kind with their trust, connection, etc. It definitely hurts though when people disappoint us and we disappoint others. That being said, GOT (DND & GRRM) is the reason I rarely engage with incomplete stories. One Piece is the exception (I am worried though; 🙏🏾 for Oda). If someone is creating a body of work meant to be an epic, I will rarely engage until it is almost wrapped up. Artists/creators are entitled to not finish their work. And we have the right to not engage (or disengage) with the work. I do think he would have finished the series if the show wasn’t made though.

[@sofer2230]

Authors don't owe their readers anything. However, if you paid for a piece of entertainment expecting it to have a satisfying conclusion, and it doesn't, you are fully justified in giving it shit. Just don't bully the author, obviously. It's like how they put the ending to Asura's Wrath in a paid DLC. It was a shitty move and it absolutely deserves the backlash.

[@erenja3ger871]

If you pay for a piece of work sure. But if the work hasn't come out yet then that's just overestimating how far your payment has gone. I don't pay for an individual book for the sake of the next one

[@nont18411]

The answers are "no" and "yes". The author has free will to do whatever they want. They owe nothing to the readers. But at the same time, starting a saga is like signing an unwritten contract to the same readers. It's not a crime to not finish it but it would be nice if the author themselves give the conclusion to the story they created, or at least, die trying (just look at the difference between how people react to GRRM not finishing his books compared to Miura or Robert Jordan. Nobody complain about the latter two because they tried their best. They just died).

[@ZeDitto3]

Damn, slayed this man in the thumbnail before you even let a word out. Did this man devious

[@lordpi8140]

it's not so much of a debt, as it's emotional investment it's like a friend or a family memeber not doing or finishing sth sure your friend didn't do as he promised and might even have a pretty good reason but you're as much as justified not to trust them next time

[@Gadget-Walkmen]

Yeah they kinda do to a certain mainly WHEN they make promises to their audiences. Their audience is WHY they’re so acclaimed and so praised and so massively successful to begin with. Without them, they are nothing. However if author/writer actually CAN NOT do the work, well we can’t blame them for it but a breach of trust has been done.

[@Florkl]

They do not owe you the first book. They do not owe you a book in another series. But a series is sold on the promise of a conclusion. Nobody bought A Game of Thrones, book 1 of A Song of Ice and Fire thinking, "I don't care if there are any other books in this series. Who needs and end?" Audiences are owed the conclusion to the series they bought into.

[@gianni206]

I’m torn too: he should hold to his word. But also, he shouldn’t “owe” the fans. That doesn’t sound like “art for art’s sake”. If anything, he may owe something to the story… which I don’t actually like or think is morally good, but that’s just me.

[@Gvern100]

Howdy. Love your videos my dude! One of the most concise KZbinrs out there

[@seaman2338]

On one hand people bought the first five books under the assumption that the series would be complete, on the other hand, no one can force him to finish the books. It’s just his reputation on the line.

[@eliadkatz5129]

I'm not saying he broke a contract and his readers have grounds to sue him (his publisher and the series' producers maybe, I don't know what he signed with them) and certainly no one has the moral authority to go and beat him up or anything like that, but it's legitimate for his readers, who paid him a lot of money for books based on the understanding and promise that he would finish the series, to feel disappointed in him and consider whether they are interested in buying future books he publishes, and legitimate for them to assume that this indicates a moral failure on his part. I don't like the notion that "artists" are elevated from the people end share their greatness with the plebeians. George R.R. Martin writes and sells books and makes a very good living from it. Just like if I went to a carpenter and ordered a dining set from him and he only sold me the table and promised that he would soon make and sell me matching chairs and then decided that he didn't feel like making chairs, it would be legitimate for me to be upset that he cheated me, even if we didn't sign a contract. The same applies to artists (and carpenters are no less artists than writers, screenwriters, or painters).

[@red_calla_lily]

So, what's the solution for readers, if authors just nope out any time? Not buying unfinished series anymore, so that unknown and new authors are even more screwed? GRRM wouldn't be where he is if he hadn't (ab)used the trust that other authors have built over the years. And maybe the next fantasy author will have a harder time publishing book 1/x because GRRM's behaviour deterred readers from buying unfinished series. It's like ghosting in dating. No one owes you their time or company, sure. But morally, it's simple: "Don't waste people's time, money or emotions by misleading them." If people in the profession violate this moral law, trust in the authors will erode and it won't be as easy to gain access to ressources anymore.

[@Derekivery]

This is the danger. Because of GRRM I will not start a 'series' even if it sounds interesting, if it isn't already done. I know that's not fair, writers can't feed their families if they can't sell their first book, but why should I give a book a shot if after I get invested the author can say "nah I'm not finishing it." That is the lesson I learned from GRRM, so he doesn't own me anything, but you could say he owes a lot of authors money because they made a lot less because of him.

[@octav1600]

I can relate to an artist not owing anyone anything. I overpromise all the time (not out of bad intent, just because I really want to do something) - and sometimes I just can't do it, and most of the time it's not even my fault. However - yes yes, I know nothing that comes before the word but has any meaning - when you make a career out of promising something, and you constantly underdeliver, that's a bad habit. GRRMartin is not the worst example. I can see how he struggles with his writing, because that is not something you can summon on command, especially with his writing style - but imagine someone makes a Go Fund me campaign or pre-sale, promising you a great game / book / whatever other product - and then, they don't deliver it - or deliver such a bad product that everyone feels snake oiled. A really good concrete example here is Blizzard selling preorders for Warcraft 3 Refunded ....

[@Lilitha11]

I don't think he owes anything to anyone. That said, if he isn't going to finish it, he could sell the rights to someone else to finish it for him. He can hand over control to someone else, while he is still alive, so he can answer questions if they have them.

[@Jostyy]

At this point the amount of people who have spat on George for not producing TWoW, i wouldn't be surprised if he turned around and said "im not finishing it"

[@redrasegarden]

I think at the very least we’re allowed to want them to finish there work. You supposedly have an ending in mind, so let us know what it is.

[@ghostlyerlkonig]

Rothfuss' Kingkiller Chronicles is another. I also personally consider the The Tales of the Kin book series by Douglas Hulick one too But the second book ends in a way that it feels complete, just a lot more in the world he could explore. They've both just got busier lives than works for being writers and yeah. Shit happens. Im not expecting shit, from GRRM either. If it happens it happens. ASOIAF may be finished post-mortem like Wheel of Time, either way people will be upset about it so 🤷. No expectations, I didnt write a contract.

[@Drawperfectcircles]

Thank for the video. I think you’re right about that. If an author promises something they should actually deliver it, sincerity is very humane value. If the author doesn’t do it, there’s a likelihood they won’t be taken seriously when the make another promise. Like MHA, the opening had a promise that wasn’t delivered

[@DistinctlyMeFilms]

This is why all the vitriol directed at Arcane's creators piss me off. You aren't owed anything. You an interpret a piece of media how you want but getting upset when the creator says something wasn't their intended purpose (or they saw things differently) makes absolutely no sense.

[@lucky_spyke]

No

[@λαμπροςαποστολοπουλος-ε4ζ]

I think you miss an important part here and that's that the story he has written so far is incomplete. So there is no catharsis of the ending of the totality of the story. So in an implicit way he does owe the rest of the story. But I do think it's unfair to pressure him to finish it constantly as it kills creativity. I think your argument is at fault because it has hypothise that he has finished a story and we want more from him.

[@ryanratchford2530]

Morally, not really, only to the extent of an otherwise broken implicit promise and a let down in a one sided financial transaction that was based on a promise of satisfying payoff and in which he’s now become a multimillionaire. But artistically, yes, for similar reasons but to a greater extent. He is doing both his fans, himself and his story an artistic disservice by not finishing. So in that sense he artistically owes it. People can artistically owe their audience something like a good ending. I think the GoT to show owed us a good ending and in some small artistic sense D&D still at fault & owes their audience better. 10 years of investment flushed away due to what seems like a lack of care.

[@Gadget-Walkmen]

That thumbnail is just plain disgusting, please change it.

[@TaylorReedHudson]

Does an author owe us? No. Absolutely not. But when you’re that big with that many loyal fans and you’ve promised to do so, it’s still kinda a scummy move, and not exactly what I would call responsible. And I would say people have every right to criticize you for it. I myself have a pretty big, ambitious series I’m working on. I do not fear death, but the idea that I might die before finishing this series I am passionate about is terrifying to me. (Not that I think that’s likely to happen) So the idea of being as old as he is and not putting every ounce of his energy into finishing it before he dies just doesn’t make any sense to me. If not for the fans, then for himself at least.

[@ayameisastar]

Fair warning I’m not a huge game of thrones fan. I think George RR Martin’s problem is that he’s so old and obese. He’s well aware his time on this earth is increasingly limited and I think he’s just in his “fuck it” era. He doesn’t care what other people think. He’s just gonna do what he wants to do until he kicks it. If that means strippers and blow, that means strippers and blow. But it’s not usually strippers and blow is it? He is writing, it’s just what he wants to write and brings him joy, not what his fans want him to write. He wrote fire and blood and the house of the dragon series. Both of whom are very popular and well received. And unlike other people i think fire and blood was a sign of his writers block. Sometimes writers have to put a difficult project aside and work on something else to get unstuck. Now do I think the book will ever get finished to his satisfaction? I have a feeling not. I think what’s more likely to happen is he’s going to die, but his giant ass manuscript (yes I believe it exists) will still be there and his long time editor will edit it and release it posthumously.

[@TaylorReedHudson]

@@ayameisastar My understanding is that he actually gave the show writers the gist of how he planned to end the series. And I’ve heard some people theorizing that because the show’s ending was so horribly received, he’s now stuck in a state of “well, shit, what do I do now?” and it’s left him unmotivated to finish.

[@ayameisastar]

@@TaylorReedHudson That makes a lot of sense. Especially because it sounds like he's writing and planning out both the books together so if he doesn't have an ending ready, of course he can't finish the 7th book. It might not make sense later. I still think he has a version done. Maybe not fully edited, but mostly done, so we'll get a copy eventually. But I'm an optimist

[@zionleach3001]

I feel it's more of an investment of emotion, money, and time. Martin seems like on of those old inflated ego type of writers. Like when Dmitri Glukhovsky called Andrew Sapowski an "old fool." I mean as a writer you gotta make money and give people satisfying conclusions to stories your fans have given money and attention to. 🤷‍♂️

[@Comfortably-Dumb]

No, as a writer you don’t “gotta” give people conclusions. You own the books you paid for, and GRRM doesn’t owe you another minute of labour beyond that. It’s absurd how many people don’t get this.

[@red_calla_lily]

​@@Comfortably-DumbYou don't seem to understand that something complete can be far more valuable than the sum of its parts. And that's what people pay for, the promise of a completed series. Would people buy a book if they knew in advance the series will not get finished? No. They trust that authors will deliver on the promise to give them a complete series, since authors before them did deliver and built that trust. Every author who doesn't give people what they thought they paid for abuses that trust and makes it harder for new authors to get their books published.

[@legolus]

​​@Comfortably-Dumb agreed, it's so entitled of them to even believe that. Like the author isn't even a person but just something that spits out stories for them to consume. Its as if they dont even know how personal, emotionally invested the author them selves are to their own work. It's a vulnerable position to be in, pouring not only ones soul into the craft but mentally, financially, and emotionally with years of investment and skill before the reader sees the final piece of art.

[@DwarfInTheFlask99-mr8rm]

This is a basic principle of contract law. You need consideration.

[@neetfreek9921]

No, unless authors start doing preorders or season passes for books lol. Wonder if this’ll ever be the meta.

[@ivanbluecool]

George doesn't have to write another book. We don't need to give him more money or remember an incomplete story either. Simple as that. His legacy will definitely be forgotten about in a few months to a year so that's on him.

[@gg_sam7847]

Do Audiences that demand new art/content owe it to the creator to unconditionally love what is rushed out or made due to obligation

[@felipegonzalez-po8vd]

Bro go get some sleep please

[@jeffreid5616]

Gotta disagree here. Storytelling is a two way street, without the author AND the audience, it isn’t a story it’s just words on a page. The audience is what breathes life into a story by making interpretations upon those words on a page and taking the time to engage with the story and thus the conversation. Even as a writer myself I would never think that I don’t owe readers a conclusion. The average person wakes up every day and has to work their ass off just to keep themselves and their loved ones alive. The two main currencies to surviving in the current world are money and time, both of which have been expended on these books. Audience members gave George money that they could’ve used to keep their families afloat just because they loved the stories that much. Now George is set enough to never work another day in his life but he’s set up like that because of the readers who have endlessly devoted time and money towards his works. Now he can either show respect to the time and money given to him by, at the very least, working on the story in some capacity, or he can disregard the countless people who made his passion project a hit and live the rest of his days out in comfort. I’m not some super game of thrones fan so I don’t really care that much either way but the distinction for me is someone like Togashi (author of Hunter x hunter) who is fighting serious health problems and will probably never finish hunter x hunter but still shows that he is working on it consistently with sporadic releases. He’s working slower than he did back in the day but he’s giving it his all and that’s why I’ll never speak a bad word of the man regardless of whether his story finishes or not. George on the other hand seems to have given up entirely. That said, I’m not super hip on Game of thrones stuff so idk if he’s still been at work on other things or if there’s a health condition he has or something but from what I know he just seems to have stopped caring about the books.

[@docstockandbarrel]

👍🏻