Do DJs REALLY want loud masters ? - Episode 88 | The Mastering Show Podcast

[@JimijaymesProductions]

One thing about dance music is certain genres are loud by default. They don't need much mastering to even be loud. I love hardstyle for example and the main element is heavily distorted kicks, when you distort something that much it has no dynamics, so you barely need to do anything with it to make it loud. That said I hate it when clubs are too loud and festivals and what I've found interesting is that RnB and Pop clubs are way worse than dance clubs and festivals (outside of a few). Most people in underground scenes are just happy with 100db and under, as long as the low end punch and the immersion is there its fine. I went to a hardstyle festival on the weekend and the first half of the main stage was a fairly reasonable level, allowed room for the later acts to get louder and for the overall festival not feel like it was painfully loud. Ive been to folk indie festivals where everything is painfully loud and there is no escape yet there is barely any clarity its just loud and shit. I feel like a big reason commercial edm is so loud is because producers want their tracks to be loud on a phone speaker and listeners expect club feeling on a shitty portable speaker. Plenty of DJs I know remaster older tracks (others and their own) to keep them consistent with newer tracks in energy on small system. As a live engineer who mainly works with DJs, I wish more DJs would stand in the sweet spot (or if they have hearing damage get hearing aids). I have heard DJs tell me it isn't loud enough and we are hitting 105db in the middle of the dance floor and they continue to red line because they aren't 'feeling it' even with their cranked monitors, they are the guitarists of the dance world. Same as guitarists, the good ones do this, they will come listen to the PA, they will communicate and they will respect the sound techs. The communication between venue and DJ satisfaction is key too, no one needs 105db at their wedding.

[@DanWorrall]

Interesting discussion! I want to pick up on one quote: 'a club full of people who *want* to dance.' They want to dance. You said it. That's what they came for. You don't have to force them by playing ear bleedingly loud all the time. That's insecurity messing with you! Quite the contrary: with a big PA system you get the freedom to use dynamic range to create much bigger climaxes and a more exciting set. I speak as someone that misspent their youth in clubs and less official venues dancing to DJs playing vinyl: how come those parties were plenty loud enough? ;)

[@ProductionAdvice]

Hi Dan, I don't want to put words in Joe's mouth but I think I know what his answer would be. (And of course you know I broadly agree with your point !) As he replied during the show, in an ideal world where you have complete control over the gain structure and set-lists, your point makes perfect sense and is exactly what you would do. But the reality of playing in many venues & situations is that the PA is basically a "black box" where the DJ has no control, there's probably no sound person and you're likely coming on after another act with whom you have little or no communication. The goal isn't ear-bleeding loudness, but it *is* about maintaining energy and involvement for people on the dance floor, moving on from what has already come before. So the situation seems to me to be very similar to the wider "loudness war" - *IF* all mastering engineers decided to start mastering at sane levels, there would be no "need" for anyone to master louder than they liked. But that's a *really* big "IF"...

[@R3BBiT]

Very insightful! Tons of neat info, gonna save this one 🤩 (01:09:00 totally agree!)

[@R3BBiT]

This episode is seriously a gold mine

[@djmaytag303]

NO! I’ve started to delete tracks that are overly compressed and distorted to reach certain loudness levels. Serato does adjust to a certain level, though it’s not using LUFS or anything like that. The default is “93dB”, though it doesn’t say anything more about what exactly that means.

[@raragrr]

One solution would be separate channel meters with a calculated average and then a master peak meter. The old German Hi-Level mixers already had this. With all this tech this is still not incorporated into mixers which are now on the market. Have been issuing this for years now, but none of the big brands are helping the main issue.

[@joecaithnessmastering6666]

I dont think really theres much space for more metering on a DJ mixer, they are busy enough as it is!

[@raragrr]

@@joecaithnessmastering6666 Only have to swap out the peak indication per channel for the average calculation, just like the Hi-Level mixer. This alone will already give more consistent mixes.

[@user-mc3gr4ps5b]

tbh DJs don't care about metering, we care about it sounding good on whatever system the music is on. you could have it display rms lufs lu's whatever you want, all it takes is one dj turning it up (therefore sounding "better" more exciting on the system) and everyone else follows it, and no one wants to be the hi-fi guy turning it down because no one cares that it's "right" in terms of loudness/peaks. additionally, sometimes mastering loud means it sounds better loud in a club, oddly enough dynamic masters dont always equal sounding better in a dj mix (which i know sounds counterintuitive). "turning down" for head room just means thats headroom someone else can crank to sound more exciting (at least thats the reality of it). And in terms of loudness for the clubs, the processing on the master in my experience is more about preventing the speakers from being blown more than anything and loud masters sound better for the most part going into that processing, while dynamic mixes still fall a bit flat with more artifacts from the clubs multiband compression/limiting that's typically set.

[@Ob1knob]

Thank you for this very interesting discussion It would be a huge thing if Joe Caithness could give us 2 or 3 reference tracks that for him are kind of ideal EDM songs ?

[@joecaithnessmastering6666]

Hi Jean, honestly that's not something I can do in good faith because EDM to me doesn't really mean anything specific, it's a bit like "rock" or "jazz" i.e. within those terms there is so much diversity it wouldn't be helpful really, sorry!

[@Ob1knob]

Thank you for your answer ;-)