Do EDH Players Run Enough Lands? | EDHRECast 185

How many lands do Commander players run on average, and is it enough? This week we're taking a look at the numbers and diving into the factors that could affect land counts in EDH decks.
Want access to exclusive content, the Challenge the Stats spreadsheet, EDHRECast Discord, and more? Support the cast on Patreon! / edhrecast
Check out our new custom altersleeves at www.altersleeves.com/content-...
EDHREC is sponsored by CardKingdom, TCGPlayer.com, and altersleeves.com. Use the price links on EDHREC or visit cardkingdom.com/edhrec and www.altersleeves.com/edhrecast to support the show!
Follow the cast on Twitter:
@EDHRECast
@JosephMSchultz
@danaroach
@mathimus55
Interested in writing for EDHREC? Send us your pitch at edhrec.com/apply or send us an email at [e-mail]
Special thanks to @The Command Zone for post-production work on the podcast, and for bringing it to a whole new level!
Subscribe to our weekly EDH stream! Live paper Commander games every Wednesday at 6pm PST: / edhrecast
Want to see the decks we play? Check them out here!
edhrec.com/articles/edhrecast...
Question, comment, or data insight? Email us at:
[e-mail]

[@emerson685]

Another reason to have extra lands in your partner deck: flooding is less of a problem when you essentially have two creatures in your hand at all times.

[@Sparrow141420]

So wild, like looking back through a time machine... there was a time Joey was able to make segways into Challenge the Stats.

[@Squee_666_9]

Honestly I'm with Dana on this one. Card draw is the perfect way to have more of everything in your deck without actually having more of everything in your deck. Well that is if you actually already have what you need in your deck.

[@kingfuzzy2]

I like card selection more so cards like Crystal ball and night dealings I'm always a fan of seeing more similar cards printed to slot in decks

[@Squee_666_9]

@@kingfuzzy2 Four colorless mana for the first scry 2 plus no draw and four colorless and four black plus damage delt for a tutor? If you're working with a strict budget they might be playable at a low power level but even with a strict budget there are much better ways to go. If you are spending 8 mana you should be trying to win the game or playing a game changing haymaker, I can win the game with three black mana if I have what I need.

[@joshuabro05241985]

Just remember folks, “If it’s raining in the morning, make sure to have a big breakfast!”

[@jonhadley5768]

Cannot state enough to newer commander players how much this will improve your decks consistency

[@ancientswordrage]

@@blaze556922 (no... Which is the whole point ☺️)

[@TheCt519]

I love how we lost Matt for an entire minute after Dana made this statement.

[@kevingarbo7688]

@@ancientswordrage I

[@ethanschulze557]

It’s okay Dana. I know what “the bones are their money. So are the worms,” is from. You are officially the youngest and coolest host.

[@Jimmythehead]

I was like “did Dana just make an I Think You Should Leave reference? He has all my respect now.”

[@trollshamanpwnage]

AND THAT WAS THE NIGHT THAT THE SKELETON'S CAME TO LIFE

[@barwlface444]

I'm not kidding - I listened to this podcast in the morning, while it was raining, on my way to get a Big Breakfast from McDonalds. Dana is a god.

[@jdogbemple1]

I’m a hardline 38 lands for most decks. Landfall I’ll do over 40, low cmc I go 35-36 as exceptions.

[@AnExercisInThought]

I run a similar style to you. I always start at 37-38 and I will pull out 1-2 after playtesting. I never start with 35... that is insane

[@NotSoSerious69420]

Me playing Urza with 28: sweating nervously

[@screwthisin]

The lowest land count I have is 33 but I normally play around 36-37

[@sosukelele]

@@NotSoSerious69420 👀

[@NotSoSerious69420]

@@sosukelele it’s funny because that was when I was even less efficient than it is now, 22 lands with 2 MDFCs lmao.

[@anthonyross7587]

“The bones are his money and so are the worms” is the single funniest thing ever said on this podcast

[@BrokenSonsOfAiur]

Oh man Dana almost killed Matt with that breakfast nonsense. You guys have the best chemistry as hosts, always a delight to listen to you guys play off of each other.

[@rulamagic]

This is how I do it. Ask yourself when you are okay with missing a land drop-that is the minimum number of lands you want in hand by that turn. Then figure out the ratio of lands vs non-lands in your deck to match that.

[@shilohartisan]

100% and this also means Dana is entirely correct with the draw spells. The number of lands you need by Turn X is a ration of HOW MANY CARDS YOU WILL HAVE SEEN BY TURN X. Someone who sees, on average 12 cards by the end of T3 is going to need fewer lands than the person who sees, on average, 10 cards by the end of Turn 3. Other factors to consider: are you able to aggressively mulligan with your deck? What potential downsides does your deck have with a higher or lower land count? (burst draw in the mid and late game is much less effective if you have a ton of lands, do you tend to have to discard lands a lot?)

[@Ixidora]

Hypergeometric distribution is a pain to learn how to understand but an invaluable tool when trying to determine land balance, not just for full land counts but also when determining color bias it is very useful as well.

[@adamrobinson6951]

Exactly. And the math shows that 34 lands is therefore plenty to make your first four land drops ~90% of the time - even excluding card draw or ramp. Adding another three lands only increases this to ~93%. My logic has always been to playtest and see how often I'm disappointed to draw another land vs how often I'm missing important land drops. In my experience, the former is a much more prevalent issue.

[@rulamagic]

@@adamrobinson6951 how are you getting 90% ? I ran it on a hypergeometric calculator and I get 56% chance to get 4 lands out of 34 with 11 cards drawn (7 opening hand + 4 turns)

[@rteishe]

Joey & Matt looking at Dana like he's crazy for the most lands in a deck he's running being 37, and changing the other parts of the deck instead of upping the lands, but that's the way to do it imo 😀 . And yes...one and two mana cantrippy cards or loot effects (if it's red) over adding more lands works like a charm to keep you digging through into them without flooding. This is the way. The wisdom must come from eating a balanced & complete breakfast if it's going to rain 😆

[@trackatlas6626]

I start with 40 land slots, then remove one land for each two mana rocks and finally adjust for curve or other deck specifics. It usually puts me at about 35-38 lands, on average. I also take the CMC of my commander into account.

[@lysolboss]

Great ITYSL reference Dana!

[@TheScoed]

One thing you didn't mention that affects the number of lands I run is the number and quality of mana sinks in my deck. The more and the better the sinks the more lands I want to run. Knowing extra mana has a strong use beyond my spells makes late mana drops feel better than if I lack meaningful sinks..

[@Omnivxrse]

I generally run 35 to 37 lands, works for me, but I also tend to run a lot of ramp and card draw (usually 12 - 15 of each, sometimes more) so for anyone who runs a bit less ramp, I wouldn't recommend going down to 35 lands unless your curve is very low. I'd say say generally 37 is the sweat spot that will work for most decks

[@LunarWingCloud]

Perfect timing! Can't wait to hear all the great stuff you guys have to say today. Personally all of my decks run around 35. It depends on the curve. If my deck has a higher curve I either at least run more accelerates or straight up run more lands, whereas if my curve is lower I might run a few lands less.

[@Oopsall]

If my command zone contains good draw I dip down to 34 + 13 ramp.

[@dreddbolt]

I'm definitely quite a bit more similar to Dana when it comes to lands. I cap out at 35 lands, though the lowest amount of lands is in my Valduk (Keeper of the Flame) voltron brew at 30 lands. Not far behind is my Kazarov (Sengir Pureblood) removal gimmick brew at 32 lands, but lots of mana rocks are in it, due to the commander being a mana sink. My Valduk deck definitely needs more tuning to figure out how to plug some holes in the roughshod boat, but Kazarov is sitting quite pretty, especially when some of the strategies are somewhat stax-like without preventing my opponents from playing the things I'm going to remove anyway. Now to improve my Karazikar (the Eye Tyrant) goad brew.

[@shilohartisan]

Dana is ENTIRELY correct, card draw is how you see more lands. Everyone who is running 38 lands cut one of them and add one of these in its place: Green: Sylvan Library or Harmonize White: Weathered Wayfarer or Alms Collector Red: Faithless Looting or Thrill of Possibility Blue: Brainstorm or Ponder Black: Night's Whisper or Sign in Blood

[@FrankChafe]

I've been playing EDH since the beginning and I have always used 40 as a baseline. I either adjust up or down from 40, but I have found that most decks I build want 40. I have one deck at 38 (mono-colored average CMC is 3) one at 36 (Edric) and almost all of the other decks is 40. My favorite deck has 44 and is casting 6 drops on turn 4 regularly (Not a landfall deck). For me a good number is 38-40 with my skew towards 40. Too many games I win because they don't get land drops. I want land drops every turn till I hit the top end of CMC's for the deck. By and large people don't run enough. 40 is the starting number...skew from there. People need to start with more.

[@irisnegro]

I also run 40, sometimes I add one more if I don't have enough color color fixing or ramp then take it out once I get the fix or ramp I was missing, and also my lower land deck is a mono color with 38 (mono black with various rocks and some cheap draw spells). I hate doing nothing in a game because I miss a land drop, if I get flooded at least I can cast my commander multiple times.

[@Sentralkontrol]

I’m the opposite. My decks are really low curve, so I start at 30 and add or subtract

[@Sentralkontrol]

Never build a deck with an average cmc above 2.75

[@cfrydlewicz]

Victory Chimes is a HOUSE in my Xantcha deck

[@jasonhart543]

36-37 is my stock standard. Definitely agree 3-color decks need that extra land (& good ramp fixers) to stay reliable.

[@charlesshoemake7946]

I've adapted my deck building to Command Zone's template a couple years ago when they initially introduced it. Since then, I kept all my decks at 38 lands with the exception of Mizzix at 37. So far, it's served me well. Theres likely room for fluctuation, but im also trying to accomplish the 33 deck challenge with added restrictions, so consistency isn't quite as strong as if I was tweaking and optimizing one or two

[@jonfarmer7914]

Just to say this is a particularly intelligent and entertaining episode amongst a generally excellent recent crop. I really enjoy the podcast. Personally, I don't run less than 37 in any of my decks and I was rather surprised that I seem to be the exception.

[@davidcardoso3525]

I usually run 36 lands + 11 mana-makers. The playgroup I play w/ most allows the first mulligan in each game as a freebie.

[@rulamagic]

This is the correct answer.

[@Morrodin182]

I agree, I also use 36 as base number for lands + 10ish dorks/rocks/similar stuff ... it also depends from deck to deck. My Jhoira deck only runs around 30 lands or so but my Omnath landfall deck runs like 44 (if you count mdfcs)

[@scaredycat3146]

Just so you know: the first mulligan in a multiplayer game is always free regardless of your playgroup. See rule 103.4c.

[@ckeiji]

You guys are freaking awesome haha always super informative and entertaining!

[@andreusemanuel4868]

It's raining here but luckily it's noon already

[@enzol1010]

29-34 is about where I usually fall, but I play high power games mostly and have all the fast mana I can jammed in there. Average CMC is pretty low as well which helps.

[@Narcomoeba1]

I think I run too many lands. I run a mono white with 40 lands, 10 mana rocks, 10 card draw (+2 more as two of the lands provides card draw). But, I don't know, I feel like I would just prefer to be mana flooded than mana screwed.

[@gianlucacagliari4327]

All I could hear after 49:00 was Tom Cardy's The Big Breakfast playing in my head

[@jacobdavis9424]

Mana screwed is far worse than excess mana by far for me. I haaaate it. 37-38 lands Minimum. Usually 40. Landfall or not

[@ryansprenkle6356]

I run 36-37 typical. But I disagree entirely. I'd much rather have a handful of plays and just need to draw a land or a rock or something so I can actually make a play. Having a hand full of land AND hoping that you can topdeck a card you need/can use in that exact moment is so much more frustrating to me.

[@jacobdavis9424]

@@ryansprenkle6356 that's why magic is great. Everyone is different! I did just play a game where I ran out of cards in hand. Might add some card draw instead. I'll hit the land drops anyways if I do

[@lodusrex]

Great job on the podcast as always. I always appreciate the insights you gentlemen have to offer. There was one angle of discussion I’m surprised you didn’t explore in more detail, however. I wanted to hear you discuss how decks have simply become more efficient because card quality and efficiency has increased over the length of the game. For example, if you were simply looking to slow your opponents’ creature-based strategies down, why would you play blind obedience when you can play authority of the consuls? As the power level and efficiency of cards has increased, it would seem that mana curves in general have decreased overall, leading players to run fewer lands simply because they don’t need them, because most of the spells that they run have become cheaper overall. I know you touched on the mana curve versus land count issue in your discussion, but I am curious to see what your thoughts on this particular line of reasoning are. Once again, great job on the podcast.

[@christophknorr4635]

I play between 34 to 37 Lands depending on the Curve of the Deck and the theme. If I have many Mana-Dorks, e.g. in my Lathril-Deck, or create many Treasure, e.g. my Prosper or my Breeches/Malcolm-Deck, than I use 34 Lands as starting Point. If I don't have these options I use 36 Lands as Starting Point and adjust them according to my experiences with my Deck during Gameplay. Generally I try to have around 50 Manasources in the Deck, regardless of wether I play green and am able to search for Lands. The only Decks that play less are Decks were my Curve ends by around 4 or 5 Mana, since than the deck is so aggressive that I don't need as much Manasources as for instances in an Ur-Dragon-Deck were the Curve is relatively high.

[@kingfuzzy2]

Dana is correct about building your deck around lands first. Adding land base before building the deck has saved me so much time in building decks because I end up with significantly fewer cuts than I used to when I built decks the other way.

[@connermcclarren5234]

I found bogbinder to put into a skullbriar deck, seems alright in that as well

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

I have a Titania deck with 42 lands, sometimes I don't even think that's enough

[@kingfuzzy2]

As someone who's gotten Mana screwed multiple times in 47 lands decks it's never enough lands I'm tempted to run 60

[@Omnivxrse]

@@kingfuzzy2 No deck should run 60 lands lol, with the exception of maybe Azusa, but even then 50 is probably plenty. I run 42 in my Tatyova (Land's matter) deck, and 35 - 37 is my other decks. I almost never have mana problems because I run a lot of ramp and card draw and don't have insanely high curves. You should never be mana screwed if you are running over 40 lands, if you are, there is almost certainly another issue with your deck that needs to be looked at, or you aren't shuffling well enough.

[@kingfuzzy2]

Yeah I do shuffle quite well but sometimes I forget I have small hands and shuffle wrong.

[@nicolascamacho7219]

Dana just inspired me to make Old Stickfingers with Tim Robinson. 🤣🤣🤣

[@semperignotus]

My first commander deck was the Kathril aspect warper deck which is a keywords/counters deck that has slippery bog binder in it. As soon as I heard Kyler and using other counters I knew the challenge was gonna be that.

[@louisvanderwalt7524]

Usually start with 36 lands for most decks, but have an outlier in a recently constructed Florian, Voldaren Scion with only 34, and it also only starts to do things at 4/5CMC. However it is so good at filtering through the deck that often withing 2 turns after playing Florian, I have sifted through 2/3rds of the deck and can consistently tutor anything to the top of my library, and play it (Varragoth & Neheb, the Eternal)

[@ToxicAtom]

Honestly, I've found myself thinking like Dana more often than not. I agreed with him though most of the episode, despite the others' reactions

[@Xopher1222]

I start at 35 - 37 then adjust as needed. I've got one deck at 43 (Lord Windgrace) and one at 27 (Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain) but most stay in that 35 to 37 range.

[@XcomfygamerX]

27 seems ludicrous nearly 1/10th of starting hands will have 0 lands and over 1/3rd will have 1 or less. Even including every 1/0 cost artifact ramp you can seems like that would be too greedy of a land base. I assume it's justification is the commander drawing a bunch of cards to compensate. But need to cast the commander first for that to happen. So I'm curious, how often is mana a problem?

[@Xopher1222]

@@XcomfygamerX occasionally but not super often. Flood is a bigger risk once the deck starts going. Aggressive mulliganing plus 18 mana rocks plus an average cmc of well under 2 helps. I've seen lists with fewer lands but 27 is a low as I'm willing to go unless I make some other alterations to the deck. It's my borderline cEDH deck.

[@BrokenOneReigns]

I play 40 lands in every single one of my decks (including my Kenrith deck running 25+ ramp cards), as I have noticed that 2/5ths of the deck being lands works best for me. I happen to play a lot of mana sinks, though, so that probably helps with the possibility of flooding.

[@BrodyTwice]

I think you should leave reference!!!! God I knew I loved Dana!

[@electromancer2645]

Before I watch this video, I run 37 lands and roughly 9-11 forms of ramp in every deck unless its has some special condition that would change that.

[@Muumajii]

In average I run 36 lands and 3 MDFCs in that way I kinda run both 36 and 39 lands at the same time depending on how my starting hand looks. It has served me well so far. :)

[@robertmendez8383]

I run 50 lands in my Azusa deck where the win cons are Eye of Ugin, Field of the Dead, and Dark Depths. I also run alot of utility lands in this brew.

[@kingfuzzy2]

Mono coloured decks are the hardest for me to include basics I usually end up including 60% or greater of non-basics. there is so many Janky lands why not run them.

[@robertmendez8383]

@@kingfuzzy2 lol most mono color decks for me I run mostly basics for Extra Planar Lense shenanigans. In Azusa I have 20 snow Forests and 2 regular Forests the other 38 lands are utility lands and other good lands that give green sources.

[@kingfuzzy2]

Right on even when I run lens I still include more non-basics in my mono coloured decks (mono white ramp and mono red beserker tribal with birgi as the commander)

[@robertmendez8383]

@@kingfuzzy2 Emiria, the Sky Ruin is the only non basic I run in mono white but that's also because it itself needs you to have 7 basic plains to get the trigger every upkeep but damn is it a powerful effect.

[@kingfuzzy2]

Emeria I've often found is the best card in a white +x deck nearly every game I see it

[@NewbyINC]

A majority of my decks sit at 1/3 lands (33) and I find that works fine for me. I have a few exceptions that go down to 29 and one that goes up to 35.

[@LunarWingCloud]

On the topic of mana curve, it does really depend on the deck, but I think it's moreso how often some of your big stuff will actually be hard cast. There's a good number of decks that will not be actually casting their larger spells for the casting cost. Jhoira, Saheeli, a lot of reanimator decks, Mayael, all these decks cheat things into play and it's not fair to consider the larger spells as truly part of the mana curve as it should be rare you actually play them honestly.

[@orgazmo686971]

A recent Reddit post made me tally my decks, so this is funny timing for this video to come out. 25 lands - 3 decks (soon to be 4) 30 lands: 10 decks 35 lands: 28 decks 40 lands: 2 decks 50 lands: 1 deck

[@olivermeloche2042]

it would be an understatement to call you a poweruser of edh lol

[@KC_Enthusiast]

That Joey intro for Dana is golden.

[@KC_Enthusiast]

Also, as one of the 400 Chainer decks, can confirm: he's incredibly busted.

[@tmakalpha1]

Just played a Lavinia Renegade deck where I play 37 lands, and I was mana-screwed up to turn 8. Sometimes it happens.

[@morgoth2425]

shuffle better lol

[@bassface1018]

As someone putting together a Kyler deck, mmmmmm thanks for the slippery bogbonder rec

[@twitchster77]

I'm only running 32 lands in a current Memnarch build which runs a few very big spells like Ugin and a couple of Eldrazis at 10 and 11 cmc. I do have to mulligan quite often with the deck, but it mulligans SO easily! But, I'm running 18 0-2 cmc mana rocks (and a handful at 3+ cmc) in the deck lol. I have no issues with mana unless I run into a ton of artifact hate super early in the game. It's not at all uncommon for me to drop an Ugin, Jin-Gitaxias or Kozilek on turn 3 or 4. I'm loving this deck so much haha

[@Kaisingsens]

I fully agree with Dana's approach of adding more draw spells than lands :D I'm a dimir mage and don't have issues with 32/33 lands but therefore ~13-16 cantrips/carddraw spells(or engines)

[@piralos1329]

Generally I tend to like going with 36/37 lands, depending on if I'm in 1/2 or 3 colours? In 5c decks I normally go more towards 38, just to make sure I'm hitting my land drops and fixing my mana! That said, I do have one deck where I run 32 lands - Breena, a deck where the curve pretty much ends at 3 (with one 4 drop), designed around playing a 1 drop, a 2 drop, Breena, swing, draw, and go aggro! So you only need the 32 lands to get a few in your opening hand and first few turns, in order to get going fast enough to start drawing!

[@CrabBaskets]

Dana, you're a treasure, never change!

[@addicted2SODA1]

To answer the question about the deck you have with the most lands (not landfall), I have a 4 color cycling deck that runs 39-40 because a lot of the lands cycle, and I use them for more than just land drops, so I wanted to smooth out my drop rate.

[@RaunienTheFirst]

As a starting point for a deck, I have a rule that the land count is 31+[the number of colours in the deck's colour identity]+[your commander's CMC] then adjust that up or down based on the curve, velocity, and goals of the deck.

[@Creamsaw]

I had to help a friend with their atraxa populate deck. 22 lands in the deck >.> I hooked them up with some nice full art basics and shocks. RUN MORE LANDS!!! They have pretty art.

[@catanthill]

I’m calling the land side of Bala Ged Recovery, “Bala Ged Bed,” and calling it a night!

[@CmdrUD87]

Since this is the most recent time you talked about this (even though the episode is about a year old by now), I'll drop my 2 cents here (yaay, engagement): I have seen multiple times MDFCs showing up with their backside, with Westvale Abbey being classified as a creature the prime offender in my experience, so that might skew your data a bit. The same is likely true for some of the Zendikar ones (I think I use both sides of Sea Gate Resto about 50%, and Agadeem definitely less than that), which I mostly use in spots where they either win me the game (or close to)- or otherwise, just as lands. Also, the new cycling cards from LOTR brought an interesting facet, to my deckbuilding, anyways. And I have been looking more into ways of making cheap spells more effective late game (34 cards anonymous here), which led me down a different path than you, but not necessarily with bad results. All I'm trying to say is: Let's talk more about it.

[@LordofNalicNod]

Extra points to Dana quoting "The Night the Skeletons Came to Life"

[@EDHCoffee]

SO GLAD you shouted out Frank's work. It's so frustrating to hear these fools scream from the mountain tops about thinning in EDH.

[@superduperbeans1234]

As a general rule, I start with 35, then add X, where X is the mana value most represented in the list. Those are only lands, MDFC's are extra. I will swap 2 MDFC's for a spell and a land if they are decent effects.

[@OmegaMTG]

5:00 Time to throw myself under the bus before you really get into it. I run 38-40 lands in all my decks. Works in my playgroup just fine. :)

[@OmegaMTG]

@@BulbiDay Then you risk what happened to me today. Mana flooded and top decking. :( But that's still better to me than being mana starved.

[@fortek13]

I have Rielle deck as well... and I am having the same problem every time either 2 lands and nothing more or just floooooooooded and no actual spells to cast :(

[@willemdafriend93]

old stickfingers will pull your hair up, but not out

[@MrPinkpanzer]

My land count starts at 37. I usually go up from there. My two most tuned decks are -Maelstrom wanderer 41 lands 19 ramp 15 card draw 5 ways to cheat costs -and Ghalta 15ramp 14 card draw 38 lands I still feel like ghalta needs one more land. I agree that cutting cards from highly tuned decks is hard, though. I think that people are abusing friendly mulligans in friendly settings to basically just guarantee playable hands. A note about the mana curve. While having many low cmc cards is great, it doesn't mean you need to stop hitting land drops later in the game. Casting multiple spells in a game is usually a great sign. Having a 2 and a 3 drop means that I need 5 mana to do both, and doing both is always more powerful. A note about mana efficiency as well: Often you want to leave mana open for countermagic, removal spells, or protection. That means there might be mana you waste because you end up not using it. That means you even want more mana at your disposal if you intend to make lines like this because wasting mana puts you behind on tempo. And not just behind against 1 player like in 60 card formats, but behind three! That means if you leave open 2 mana, you lost 6 mana in tempo if you don't cast the spell. I only count MDFCs as lands because I have perfect mana bases in terms of color fixing(duals, shocks, fetches, etc) and because I am only using the ones that can enter untapped. I generally don't tolerate etb tapped lands because it ruins my curve and the flow of gameplay. There are exceptions of course. Hall of the bandit lord is still a great inclusion in kaalia and basically "ramps" me by letting kaalia attack a turn earlier. For the most part I think people are running way too few lands and need to add a LOT more. It's boring, you get less toys, and it gets more difficult the more tuned the deck becomes, but it's very important for the consistency of your decks over time. Thanks for the great content, and I hope everyone has a great day.

[@AbyssArray]

I'm normally at 35-37 lands, my Landfall deck is at 41 Edit: I will say I probably include around 12 ramp cards... if I add it to my land count, it's close to 50 (so I should on avg have 3 or 4 lands/ramp cards in opening hand)

[@kingfuzzy2]

My lands deck is at 47 and even then I get Mana screwed every other game very tempted to run 60+ lands at this point

[@AbyssArray]

@@kingfuzzy2 Funny thing for my Selvala/Hydra deck, out of 5 games, 1 of them I was Colour-screwed, 2 of them I was Land-screwed, 1 of them I was Land-flooded.. Last one I was creature-screwed, since my card draw is tied to getting fat creatures into play

[@kingfuzzy2]

That's hilarious and unfortunate have about the same experience in my horde of notions big Mana deck

[@mickeysmagic89]

I alway start with 30 + the commander’s CMC/MV + the number of colors in the commander’s color identity. This usually roughs out to around 35-38. Then I adjust from there depending on the decks curve, mana dorks/rocks, ramp spells, etc

[@screwthisin]

Thats an interesting formula you have!

[@mickeysmagic89]

@@screwthisin thanks! I’ve used it for years. Always gives me a good place to start

[@dakodastevens8972]

I generally run about 36-37 land in all of my deck + 8 or so ramp spells. I tend to run more card draw and lower mana curves than most people so it tends to work out quite well. In more aggressive decks that want to curve out I try to run one or two more lands, and cut down on the ramp. If I want to be playing a creature on turns 1-5, ramp can be really awkward (Thinking decks like Edgar Markov). As for MDFCs, I generally count them as lands, but that comes with a caveat. I try to keep ~4 tap lands in my deck, some of the slower decks ill go up to 5, some of my more aggressive ones I go down to 0-1, and as soon as my tap land limit is reached, every other MDFC that goes in the deck counts as a spell. The number of colors in the deck also matters, if I am running 3+ colors the number of utility lands that you can run gets quite limited, at 3 colors I generally run 3-5 depending on the number of lands and how color intensive the deck is, in 4 and 5 colors I generally run 1-2 at most, and MDFCs always occupy these slots, and as soon as those slots are filled (either through MDCS or just other good utility lands) they go straight to the spell slots.

[@RedCometNurse]

I generally run 36+2 MDFCs, but adjust up or down for the average CMC. I seldom run into issues with having enough lands to do what I want to do. I try to keep my average CMC low though.

[@davidcrain453]

Edhreccast = Killin it

[@jasonhart543]

Victory Chimes is so good in Gavi too - fuel for cycling each turn for Dino Cats

[@olvynchuru1663]

It's also worth keeping in mind the land counts of other formats. In 60 card decks, a common land count is 24 land, which is comparable to 39 or 40 land in a 99 card deck. In 40 card Limited decks, a common land count is 17 land, which is comparable to 42 land in a 99 card deck. So I'd say that 35 or even 37 land is too low.

[@wunderbar5702]

Everybody gangsta until edhrec recommeds basics for your deck

[@Wojtek36762]

I usually run 35 actual lands and then 1-3 MDFC lands. My Maja landfall deck is at 39 or 40, Yarok does some landfall but draws so much that it’s not a big issue. My only lower one is Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy, which has 30 full lands and 4 MDFCs. Once I’ve made a few land drops, I’m focused on loading up on the 18 or so dorks and rocks who Kinnan augments. Every non creature in that deck is a trade off because I’m minimizing the chance of whiffing a Kinnan activation.

[@Jerhevon]

Most of my decks are 37 lands, couple are 39ish playing with a suite of MDFCs to give options. And even in the land base we run Tranquil Thicket so some of the lands have options if we don't need them as lands. My exceptions are 40 for Windgrace who needs ready lands to discard and still have lands to play. And my 5-color and ramp decks. Actually, Reaper King is both. Intet/Spells matter/Ramp is 33 lands. Horde of Notions Combos is 32 lands. And Reaper King is 31. That deck also having some 30 odd ramp cards or cards that can find a land... like oops, hate to do T2 Demonic Tutor for a land, but lets find a Rav Bounce land and get my next two land drops. These decks accept that they're not drawing lands, but digging them from the deck kicking and screaming. Also a big note for things like Cultivate and Verdant Mastery which both do the land search thing, but also provide a spare land to play this turn as well. It's something that just sort of happened with Reaper King by accident, but with Intet, I tried normal land counts, but always ended up with 5 lands in play, 3 lands in hand, and no plays. So just kept ratcheting up the cheap card draw/selection to patch the interim spaces and find plays. Even going so far as Evolution Charm since early it finds me land 3 for the Cultivates, or late game retrieves a haymaker creature from the yard.

[@chrismaxwell3001]

I use 37 in most of my decks including mdfc if they are there. I do wonder if I need to reassess my ramp/mana dork number of cards though.

[@Mattismen]

I think my lowest land count is 30 for my Svella deck, cause I only need three before I start making Manaliths, and when you can afford her big ability you want less of them getting in the way.

[@ryansprenkle6356]

You know....I've never actually thought about Svella as a commander before, but that deck seems like it would be really fun....it also seems like a fun deck for big expensive idiots that don't really fit in other decks very well.

[@catass]

I'm a stinky filthy low land player and am happier for it. Sure, I could run more to maybe be a little more "consistent" but I just want to jam as many things in the deck as possible to have fun. Most of my decks sit between 33 and 35 lands. Been completely Mana screwed and flooded plenty of times with them but no more or less than my opponents. I think it comes down to personal preference and I feel personally attacked every time below 36 lands is viewed as crazy or abnormal lol

[@Shulwelld]

Alibou is currently my favorite deck :) just play an absurd amount of mana rocks, cheap artifacts, and wheels and you get an incredibly fun, decently powerful deck

[@dam49365]

I think this boils down to how much ramp do you have in the deck? There is like 60-70 ramp cards ( not counting the expensive ones) thats 1-3 mana. I usually cut one land for every 3 ramp cards, and i run at a minimum 10 ramp cards. Got 35 lands in all my commander decks, except a landfall one, with 42 lands. And even that landfall deck manages to get mana screwed lol

[@kellylogs2642]

35 is my minimum, has been for a long time, but these days I tend to run 36. I honestly can't imagine going much higher than that because between them, draw spells, ramp, and removal (which are never fully on theme no matter how hard you try) I want * some * room for my actual deck.

[@kingfuzzy2]

Modular spells help me slot in more lands / ramp if that helps

[@veryevil95]

I run on avg 30-32 lands as of late, with about 20 ramps. i used to run 36 no matter what but i feel like i get land flooded too often

[@alexmacgregor5265]

I put all my mdfc's in land side facing out. Really helps me realize I need the land now rather than the spell later

[@GeekandGlory]

I end up doing this a lot, especially if I plan on focusing on one side over the other.

[@Fighting_irish493]

I basically run about 35 lands in my decks that more then 1 third of my deck and basically I never really have problems

[@ethanbeck5892]

I run a very finely tuned Queen Marchesa deck. I run only 34 lands, but this is because the mana curve is extremely low. The deck also has tons of ways of getting exactly the card i need what i need as well as 10 mana rocks.

[@jordonpohl7393]

I run 32-36 lands on average 😅🙈 and run too many as well as not enough lands 😋 … I’m now aiming to build a 26 land deck after this 🙌 … agree a lot about it being an art vs a science … so many factors and how you build

[@kingfuzzy2]

There's a player that runs 12-18 lands and is never Manascrewed me however running 40-47 gets Mana screwed every other game. And don't get me started on the 5 landless decks my other friend runs

[@w4ffu1z]

Chimes is also very good as an Orvar twiddle target.

[@GrompEconomics]

My Glissa the Traitor eggs deck got down to 30 lands at one point. Over time I got greedier and greedier but about 6 months ago I went up to 34 with 1 mdfc (so 35). The eggs acting as cantrips that I can repeatedly cast let me be greedier with lands

[@emmkestrel442]

I do agree that 35 is generally speaking a minimum for decks, at least on average, but like also, people don't notice that the mulligan rules in this format can allow you to be a bit more greedy if you can consistently ramp without much mana, or have a lot of dinky cantrips

[@hansmelby5080]

MDFC land - I play a couple as some of the very few lands I have in my decks that come in tapped. I treat them as lands with late game upside.

[@andrewpeli9019]

The number of lands that I play stays fairly consistent at 37-39 but the ramp and card draw that I choose for the deck may change. If you're playing a 5 CMC commander, for instance. Kodama's reach and Cultivate suddenly become very attractive because it ramps to 4 and gives you a basic to hand for your fifth mana. On the other hand, in a deck with a 3 CMC commander, dark ritual or llanowar elves might be more attractive.

[@ozzwich]

I always shoot for 37-38 lands. Although I do have decks at 36, I never go below that as I start fearing the screw.

[@BrewersKitchen]

"The bones are his money and so are the worms" killed me xD Got to love I Think You Should Leave

[@armyofmeh]

I actually did build a Slogurk, just played it last night in my group, 10/10 would recommend. But also, if I had my way, my Commander would be Slogurk, Titania, Gitrog.

[@s.a.hellenbrand8450]

I avg between 36-39

[@Mwarrior1991]

35? i dont go below 38

[@comradelarry2558]

Zacama I run 38 lands, most of my other decks are 33-35 with a good amount of ramp. But I keep my curves very low for casual.