Do I Need A Jointer Or A Planer Or Both? Which One?

[@zensational.]

12:40 thank you for this sentiment Kevin. I'm currently deep cleaning a beautiful piano that I took apart the last couple of days. I'm super juiced to make beautifully opened up guitars and other instruments. Thank you for all the knowledge you share!

[@jonahguitarguy]

Just saw another YT guy saying you don't even need a jointer if you have a hand plane. Just flatten the board out by hand and put in the planer. I agree with your take on this subject. I have both a great jointer and an ok planer. Because of chipping with certain guitar woods unless I need to remove a lot of stock I use my drum sander for thicknessing. Thanks Kevin for your well thought out videos. I am the largest manufacture of guitars in Mt Shasta Ca.

[@larryhawes9322]

Really appreciate your informative videos but I've seen many KZbin videos and demonstrations where a planer can be used to flatten a board with shims and a sled with claims that a jointer should be the second purchase if needed at all. Thank you again for the video.

[@thepragmaticluthier]

Sleds and shims can work very well. I've used those techniques myself: but the person who demonstrated that and claimed that a jointer is secondary or even unnecessary failed to mention how that technique completely fails when one needs to dress out thirty or more board feet, or needs to dress lengths greater than four feet, to say nothing of the fact that a planer cannot straighten an edge at all.

[@larryhawes9322]

@@thepragmaticluthier Thanks so much for the reply and I agree and I think as always it depends on one needs. I don't need to dress out 30 or more board feet and come across only the occasional warped board that needs a jointer but your logic is sound but perhaps not in every case for every user and thank you again for your great video content and your thoughtful reply.

[@jimbo2629]

I have an Emco jointer thicknesser. I regard the surface planer as dangerous and less accurate because of bounce. The thicknesser will improve flatness so I often benefit from that. For wild grain I use a sanding thicknesser followed by by hand planing or sanding. In the antipodes a surface planer is referred to appropriately as a “buzzer”.

[@johngriswold2213]

No need for either in most cases. Built my first two with no power tools outside of a battery powered drill, and only used that for convenience. A couple of well tuned hand planes and for the first and most important power tool, a drum thicknessing sander, and you should be set. It's SO much more pleasurable to plane an edge and a surface flat, less dangerous and noisy, and both the planer and the joiner will be risky with the figured woods we all love;)

[@alexryder2046]

We are quite lucky in the UK in that we usually buy a combined jointer thicknesser. My brother is lucky that he has a superb Felder jointer thicknesser with a 16inch wide cutter block that saves so so much space in the fact you don't have to space for both machines. As fir the quality of cut of both jonter and thicknesser it superb. I am suprised more people in the USA and Canada don't seem go that route to save space

[@thepragmaticluthier]

Thanks for mentioning combination jointer/planer machines. I failed to consider the space requirements that restrict many shop owners. Ironically, at this times when my shops were tiny, I couldn't afford machinery and when I finally built a larger shop, I could afford to equip it. I'll try to broaden my thinking in future presentations.

[@alexryder2046]

@@thepragmaticluthier no problem its just much more common practice in the UK and europe as we aren't blessed with large shops. My daughter is shortly hoping to move to the USA and she's remarked the average three bedroom home in the US is much bigger than that in the UK. Land is very much a premium here for sure. A lot of Cabinetmakers buy combination machines that include a table saw shaper and mortice and tenoner here. Bigger joinery shops generally have dedicated individual machines

[@frankmoore1644]

Thanks for spending some time on your woodworking equipment. I appreciate your knowledge and insights.

[@short6691]

Hmmm... My shop is in my basement. And I don't want the dust and noise in my downstairs luthery workshop. There is enough of that already! So I outsource my jointer and planer work to a commercial millwork supplier. For $50 I can get all the flattening and thicknessing I need for my simple furniture projects. I don't have to maintain the equipment or dispose of the chips. The only downside is that "my guy" at the shop is a Packers fan...

[@thepragmaticluthier]

Well, I don't follow tennis teams but maybe you should change millwork sources:)

[@marcneeleman7404]

There also combined jointer/ planer machines available!

[@thepragmaticluthier]

I've used a few of them; highly effective albeit cumbersome.

[@johnford7847]

Very effective demonstration. I've heard (and read) this many times; you're the first I can recall to actually demonstrate the differences. I found it useful to hear your opinions on the merits of these machines and your quick mention of resawing. Since you're getting "unorthodox" lumber, you probably do your own drying of at least some of it. Will you address the drying process? Good video, Kevin. Thanks for sharing.

[@thepragmaticluthier]

I could address the drying process, but I can explain here very succinctly. Paint the end grain, sticker the boards, indoors if possible, covered if outdoors. Wait for two years or more. Bring small amounts of lumber when needed into the shop to acclimate before fabricating. At my age, I'm not air drying my lumber any more.

[@johnford7847]

Thank you. I lived in western PA long enough to know that the humidity in summer is pretty high. I wondered whether it was high enough to preclude air-drying. Apparently not. Thanks again.@@thepragmaticluthier

[@itdock]

I don't have a planer yet. I've been getting by with a jointer, bandsaw, and drum sander. It's been just fine. 😊

[@red58impala]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I don't have the room for any more machines at the moment. I'm stuck buying lumber already close to dimension and using a hand plane if needed.

[@johngriswold2213]

I have used a heavy wooden jointer plane w adhesive sandpaper on the sole to thickness wood with difficult grain...takes some elbow grease but works pretty well;)

[@scottriddle5468]

Great video, thank you for teaching us the craft,it helps me

[@zeni3382]

I was looking for this answer

[@django02]

Another question for those who only build instruments is planer vs. drum sander. I build instruments and my 6" jointer and 16/32 drum sander are a great combo for my purposes.

[@johngriswold2213]

Planer is pretty superfluous for lutherie if you have a couple of well tuned hand planes and a drum sander;)

[@alexryder2046]

I agree with John. However if you get lucky enough to make guitar making a full time living it is really hard to beat the convience and speed of good well tuned power tools. Like everything about woodworking the key is how well tuned those power tools are

[@johngriswold2213]

@@alexryder2046 I am fortunate enough to need no income from my guitar builds (retired after 40+ years of carpentry/contracting). I have huge respect for those who took the risk and committed to lutherie as a career;)

[@robertnewell5057]

I don't use these things as I don't have room for them and I'm a hobbyist. I just use a hand plane. With the amounts of timber I'm working with it doesn't take long - it's not as if I'm in a production situation. However, what I don't understand is: if you have a straight surface and an straight edge at 90 degrees, why cant you run the edge along the fence and get the unfinished surface parallel to the finished one? Is it just impossible to keep the edge snug to the fence?

[@zacharylandgraf2388]

Kevin, Thank you for the great demo! I have a few questions, if I may. I don't do any woodworking, currently active duty military so I can't settle down and establish a shop. But I would like to in the future. Likely strictly guitar making. I have been watching lots of guitar making on KZbin for a couple years now. -- Is the planer NOT able to take rough lumber and plane both large surfaces / opposing surfaces? I.e., plane one side, then flip it and plane the other side? Perhaps using shims or some sort of jig or sled to stabilize the first pass? i.e., is it absolutely necessary to have a jointer to finish the first surface before being able to use the planer for the opposing surface? -- Can you hand plane rough lumber first, then use a planer (and therefore not have a jointer? -- Can you plane the large surface of a piece of rough lumber, and then square up the edge without a jointer (using a shooting board and hand planer)? -- Using just a jointer, can't you plane the first large surface, then ride that now flat surface against the fence to square the edge (as you demonstrated), then use that now square/flat edge to ride against the fence to flatten the third surface / the opposing large surface? That seems squirrely to me to ride a small edge against the fence to plane the other surface - perhaps it is possible with a jig or sled or something? I am obviously not very experienced, but to me it seems like flattening/squaring an edge would be do-able by hand with a shooting board and hand plane, and therefore the planer is more valuable for a strictly guitar making shop? I don't see how one could get the opposing large surface planed parallel by hand? I definitely see what you mean by them working together, though. I would be grateful for any input! I like your channel a lot. Most guitar making channels skip over most of this basic woodworking knowledge but I think it is important and interesting to learn about! V/r, Zach

[@thepragmaticluthier]

You have a great many questions and suggestions and I think you have pretty much answered all of your own questions. I think all of the various techniques and methods you mentioned are very workable, especially in applications where small quantities are to be machined. I admire the amount of study you have applied yourself to and hope you can put a nice shop together someday. Thank you for your service to our country.

[@jacobthellamer]

I mostly use hand planes. I have a small jointer but it doesn't really see any use. I would like a better thicknesser(planer) at some point but I will probably invest in a second bandsaw and a much nicer drum sander first.

[@lyndamcardle4123]

I love your premise of sourcing your lumber not from specific lumber stockists but, spreading your net wider to I presume giveaways, "street throwaways" and other stocks following your desire to utilise other tonewoods than the traditional lumber other luthiers use. That's your appeal in my eyes...you call yourself "the pragmatic luthier", you might also call yourself "the unconventional luthier" ! Thanks Kevin.

[@yunowot]

May i ask you whether one can use a planer as a kind of jointer if you wedge the bottom surface so that the top surface pass through the planer in a certain predetermined way, so that the top surface is the first flattened. I dream of saving money, but is this a really bad idea?? Would appreciate your advice.

[@thepragmaticluthier]

I'm sure that you can do as you suggest, if you're willing to go through those motions. There are so many ways to accomplish the same task. I have all of this equipment because on any given day I could dressing lumber for a single guitar neck or a piece of furniture.

[@slo5283]

?! Is it unsafe to run a Board on the Joiner with wide part vertical and pressed against the side, and with the narrow part running over the Knives?!?

[@thepragmaticluthier]

I interpret you question as "can you joint the end grain of a board?" End grain of a board can be jointed safely provided that the board is WIDE ENOUGH. I never joint anything under 12 inches long because a short length can have a tendency to rock over the cutterhead, not having enough surface bearing on the indeed and outfield tables. Jointing end grain is more often than not, unproductive because the jointer cannot square the end of a board with its long edge and when the final corner of board crosses the knives, it WILL tear that corner of the board. With respect to safety, jointing the end of a board is no more or less dangerous than jointing an edge, but as the board stands taller from the jointer table, the greater the difficulty you will have maintaining contact with the jointer table. Given the quality of the end result, the problems with tearing, I never joint end grain and don't recommend it. Remember to never joint anything less than 12 inches long, edge or surface. I hope I have answered your question. Thank you for submitting it.

[@johnhannasmusicaladventure8104]

Hey Kevin what width of a bandsaw blade do you use for resawing ?

[@thepragmaticluthier]

I resaw with 3/4" blades of no more than 4 teeth per inch.

[@johnhannasmusicaladventure8104]

@@thepragmaticluthier Thank you brother.

[@joansmith2169]

@thepragmaticluthier, another great presentation. Would love it if you did a complementary video on how to mill wood by hand. I always hit the Like button!