Do Micro Diameter Arrows REALLY Perform Better???

In this week's Gear or Gadget, we are bringing our experiences with different products to the table to do a hybrid style product review. We are calling this segment "Gear or Gadget."
We will be determining whether we think this piece of hunting equipment is gear, and we would buy it again or is it a gadget and money can be better spent somewhere else.
There are a couple of ground rules:
#1 We are not here to brand bash anyone. We are simply here to give honest reviews on products we have used.
#2 NO USEAGE OF THE TERM "GAME CHANGER". The game has not changed, and will not change from a single product.
In this episode, we talk about another gimmick in the hunting industry. Chad talks about the latest craze to hit the hunting industry and that is micro diameter arrow shafts. Do they really fly better? Don't they out-penetrate thicker diameter arrows? You'll have to watch to find out. Jake talks about his beloved sitka jacket that has seen everything from birthday parties and gatherings to a 2 week hunt in Nebraska hunting late season muzzleloader. Cameron brings to the table a product that western hunters never leave home with. Be sure to tune in for this one!
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[@buckshot2614]

Micro diameter normally has a lower GPI which requires less weight up front to get a Higher FOC which in my eyes lower GPI means lighter arrow and weight only added where it matter and means Speed. Speed also kills and just as important as FOC. I’d rather have a 440 grain setup with 17% FOC then a heavy GPI that’s 550 grain setup with 17% FOC.

[@h-minus2212]

Below is Randy Ulmer's take on micro diameter arrows: In all the testing I’ve seen, small diameter arrows penetrate better than larger diameter arrows of the same weight. Though the stiffness of a carbon shaft may play some role in penetration, diameter appears to be the greatest reason that small diameter shafts do so well in these tests. A smaller surface area reduces resistance as the shaft slips into the target. So, use the smallest diameter arrows you can get away with. Because small diameter arrows have less surface area, they drift less in the wind. They are also quieter in flight and require less fletching and less energy (when compared to a larger diameter shaft) to get them spinning. Smaller diameter arrows also maintain their speed better downrange. Arrows slow down as they move because of the friction of the air. The greater the surface area of an arrow, the quicker it slows down. At 40 yards, small diameter arrows lose much less of their initial speed than a larger diameter arrow. I know, from my own experience, that the difference between large diameter and small diameter arrows grows even wider beyond 40 yards. It’s not a huge difference, but bowhunting is a tough game and I’ll take every advantage I can get.

[@chadsyl23]

That’s exactly what the market says but so much of physics and math says the opposite. We plan to do some more testing and content to support our case.

[@h-minus2212]

@@chadsyl23 I don't know what physics property suggests that a projectile with greater surface area has less drag in the wind or penetrates better through a medium than a projectile with a smaller diameter - all other factors constant. Some of the gear reviews are just an expression of the reviewer's preferences, sold as careful study and testing.

[@chadsyl23]

@@h-minus2212 if it was only the shaft then it definitely makes a difference. Add vanes and broadhead…. All of a sudden the shaft is 3rd priority. The cross wind signature grows when your arrow is oscillating. When your arrow is in equilibrium the cross wind signature is smaller. There’s a lot that goes into this but with high speed cameras and radar testing it should be really eye opening.

[@daltonbbf756]

I don’t understand how shaft wall thickness matters. The arrow will have a spine such as 250,300,340,350,400 it’s a measurement of how much the arrow flexes with a set amount of weight in the middle. A 300 spine .166 .204 .256 all flex the same regardless of the wall thickness. If anything I like the thicker wall on the micro diameter it seems to make for a more rugged arrow.

[@chadsylvester8336]

We have some more content coming that will visually show the difference after the arrow has absorbed the transfer of energy from the bow. As the ranch fairy says, there's a ton of variables and at the end of the day shoot what flys out of your bow and the setup you have confidence in. We're excited to show our findings from future content.

[@liamboyle9199]

@@chadsylvester8336 lmao I wouldn't take what FR says with a massive pinch of salt cause he is a bit of a nutter😂

[@thorwaldjohanson2526]

For hunting it could make a difference. Friction on the shaft or the lack thereof has a big impact on penetration.

[@swd37sd]

I have been shooting a bow for 39 years. I've shot wood, aluminum, carbon and now micro diameter arrows. Micro diameter arrows absolutely have less wind drift and I hunt mostly in Indiana. That is the greatest benefit that I have personally found from shooting them. I am not opposed to shooting standard diameter as long as they are accurate and dependable. Also, gaiters are definitely worth the investment. They absolutely save the day when it's heavy dew or snow.

[@bucwacka]

All these gear or gadgets make me realize that I have a completely different hunting setup than you guys! 😂 We should do a video while wearing our full go-to setups.

[@aaronshorter864]

Just seeing this and agree with most everything. Only thing I see as not mattering in the different size arrow diameters is time to recovery. If same spine I feel the flex should be same regardless of diameter and recover in same timeframe. Where I think it would make a difference is in the gpi of the arrow shaft and effect momentum in that respect. Either way I’m sticking with the standard diameter across the board so I don’t need to adjust my rest. And they do all I need them to do.

[@collinslangley361]

I really appreciated this video. It’s nice to see information that’s not through the lenses of advertisement.

[@joshlasure3384]

Great video gentlemen !!! I totally agree with all three of you I have the jetstream and the gaiters and love them both. As far as micro diameter arrows go I spent 2019 2020 and 2021 try my best to make them work out of my Mathews Vertix. Needless to say I was never happy with the consistency I received shooting them. Needless to say I am back to shooting .246 shafts custom made in Lucasville Ohio from Deer Crossing Archery. Honestly I have only been shooting them for 3 months and could not be happiers with my arrow flight bare shaft or fletched and most importantly my groups.

[@chadsyl23]

Great to hear that Josh!

[@wyattgardner3552]

A properly placed shot on a deer is still more important than a guaranteed pass through from resistance coefficients or momentum. Those are needed when necessary to punch through scapula/leg bones, or that of hogs in ranch fairy's case.

[@chadsyl23]

💯

[@josephtreadlightly5686]

Comes down to your hunting situation. If u have a huge chunk of land whether public or private u can just hope to draw blood on a deer. Tired of watching too many videos where it comes down to waiting 8 hours to bloodtrail. It doesn't have to be that way. This is more from a western ground stalking perspective. If u r a Midwestern or Eastern hunter from a 🌳 u can select spots where u have the advantage from close range. Just like the NFL is a 12 month a year business so is bowhunting.

[@timl8302]

Ashby Rule 5. Shaft-Diameter: "There is a substantial INCREASE in penetration when the shaft of an arrow is at least 5% smaller in diameter than the back of the broadhead’s ferrule. Likewise, there is a substantial LOSS in penetration when the shaft diameter is larger than the back of the broadhead’s ferrule." So, he just says 5% smaller. So, you think an indoor 23-27 arrow has the same effect on flesh as a .166 or .204? Rule #5 makes sense to me. It slipstreams (sort of like 'drafting' in NASCAR) behind the broadhead. Remember muscle, tendons push back too. FWIW The archery Momentum equation that adds vectoring to force; Velocity *mass/225.400 = .xx Slug-feet.

[@Bbbb4life]

A small arrow isn't going to penetrate better into a deer because it's the broadhead getting stuck in bone right away when penetration is an issue. The arrow shaft isn't even interacting with flesh. The only thing they are good for is getting a workout trying to pull them out of 3D targets

[@indianapublicland7429]

Yes to the first part of your statement no difference in pulling them out!!

[@timl8302]

Hummm...So, my.166 ID arrow 525gr (260gr up front) arrow with scalpel sharp Magnus heads"AKA: Flying Battle Axe" won't penetrate deer scapulars......... Interesting?!🤔

[@Bbbb4life]

@@timl8302 not at all what I'm saying. Just that the arrow diameter isn't going to be the determining factor whether you do or not

[@timl8302]

@@Bbbb4life I reread your statement......My bad..I misread it. Yes, I agree to a point. It is the broadhead that does the main work, backed up with the force of the arrow & broadhead's weight + sharpness, during the impulse of the broadhed touching the deer's hair to the exit or stopping of the arrow in the deer. You can build a high weight/FOC shaft with a smaller arrow shaft (with a decent gpi & stiff spine). Just like I did. The a smaller shaft just provides less friction going though the animal/target & less wind resistance.Newton's 3rd law..This is #5 on Dr. Ashby's "12 Arrow Penetration Factors". It states; "There is a substantial INCREASE in penetration when the shaft of an arrow is at least 5% smaller in diameter than the back of the broadhead’s ferrule. "

[@Farmersforever1993]

Personally it all comes down to the the individual shooting and how they shoot. As ElkShape’s Dan Staton says always be tinkering or ABT. Because if you don’t try you might never find what’s best for you. Small diameter arrows might work great for guy A, guy B is ok, and guy C is absolutely not working for him. It really comes down to the individual and they’re individual set up. The type of arrow rest and type of nock even the vanes for every individual is different so making results for your test and someone else’s test completely different. Truthfully in the end were all hunters and arguing over who is right and who is wrong really needs to end because if it doesn’t we’re going to push hunting out the door for so many young hunters that eventually we won’t have anyone in the future. It all comes down to each and every individual. Having discussions about why you use what use is one thing but telling people that what they’re using is wrong, completely wrong. Truthfully ABT is the best way to find what works for everyone on their own.

[@chadsylvester8336]

100% agree with everyone should shoot what works for them and what they have confidence in. In our content, we are just trying to shed light on what companies/industry says on why they should purchase X product vs what they are getting. From a personal perspective, I bought into micro diameter shafts under the assumption of better penetration over other shafts. After not seeing the results I was looking for it caused me to look for the reason why...It's a long, deep wormhole that has more variables than known to man. The long and short of it is there are a few generalized statements and some physics that do not change. However, when adding in the extreme amount of variables.....every scenario is ultimately different. The bottom line is people should still know why they are buying a product and understand what they are getting. If it works for the person, it's never wrong.

[@chrisunruh6485]

Best comment EVER!!! I’m so tired of the up and coming hunter telling me what and why I’m doing it wrong. I love all these podcasts and learning but I’m starting to see new hunters who haven’t killed an animal think they have it figured out from listening to podcasts and they just need to go try things and figure out what really works and what doesn’t for themselves. Just go hunt and enjoy the outdoors.

[@kwadebruce9134]

I disagree. this is not a personal issue.

[@bowhunter247]

I totally agree with you guys as far as penetration is concerned. I shoot micro diameters strictly for better accuracy at longer distances. With a 10-15 mph crosswind at 80 yards my large diameter target arrows impacted about 6 inches to the right. Same situation with my my micros and the point of impact was maybe 2 inches to the right. Both arrows were similar in weight and had the same exact fletching configuration. Both were shot out of 60 pound bows so the velocity should have been within 20 fps. Nothing scientific, but a spur of the moment test I conducted on a windy day a few years ago. Obviously with a .246 diameter arrow this would be less noticeable and a .204 it would probably be almost negligible. I guess my findings were enough for me to stick with the micros and I haven’t had any issues so no reason to switch 🤷‍♂️

[@ExodusOutdoorGear]

Good test! Did you test them with a broadhead or field point?

[@bowhunter247]

@@ExodusOutdoorGear field tip. Glue in point on my target arrows…

[@chadsylvester8336]

Awesome test! We have some similar testing coming down the pipeline! Can't wait to share our findings. We plan to take it just one step further and test different vanes to see how it impacts each shafts crosswind signature.

[@chris_in_hd]

Finally. No nonsense , straight to the point with facts. Subscribed

[@nicholasbrehm7838]

I am working out a problem where I bought a React Pro 7 pin sight and it works great but my arrows are not hitting target elevation when shooting at 60, 70, 80 yards. Shooting at 275 mps, full length 300 spline hunter pros 9.3 gpi with 100 gr field tips with 28 gr lighted nocks. Going to try without the lighted nocks to see if the sight will work and than I'll crank the poundage up to 70 lbs to get the arrow fps up as much as I can. The sight is supposed to work on arrow speeds over 270 fps. What I am noticing is a drop in the arrow flight path over 50 yards. I'd like to see you guys look into why...

[@timl8302]

Probably low FOC. Could be light spine, light arrows? Many things.

[@MikeyWoomer]

I went down the same worm hole on micro arrows.. never again man. I'm back to standard sized good ol .246 arrows.

[@jonbrown9490]

Personally, I shoot trad and prefer larger shafts. I normally shoot tapered 23/64 fir shafts, and get the same penetration as carbon and/or micro shafts. I think as long as the broadhead cuts a decent size hole and you have enough momentum, then you'll be totally fine. That said, I have found that footing standard cabon shafts with a 2" 2216 footer does as much or more to improve penetration than a micro shaft. My theory is that it's a twofold effect...#1 the footer creates the tapered effect #2 the footer stiffens the shaft right behind the broadhead which helps keep it tracking straight upon a hard impact. I've found this to be especially true on angled shots. Just my 2 cents( though they are probably only worth half that ;-). great content, thanks for putting it out there.

[@quintinkale1242]

Worm hole lol love it haha I hate the movement of having to to have a 500 plus grain arrow lol it’s a joke same with micro diameter I personally hate gripping them to pull out of a 3d target. Great video, informative and your not trying to over sell shit or push brands on people. You guys are solid.

[@Holledel]

This is easy, with micro diameter .166 shafts I tear up less arrows than I did with .246 diameter shafts when practicing. Also they do help when shooting in crosswinds

[@OutdoorRhodes]

I had elbow surgery last year and was unable to draw 60-70lbs and only drawing back 55lbs I notice the smaller diameter arrow had less drop at 40 yards. Way less drop.

[@wrsayraw8472]

Keep thinking about going Micro. And, I keep buying standard arrow shafts (Victory V-Force). Can never quite accept the argument that micro diameter shafts will offer less resistance through a wound channel. That might be true if I were shooting field points at non-foam game, but since it's illegal and unethical...Thanks for creating this discussion!

[@timbow50]

People worry about crosswinds way to much. If you're shooting for score on the 3-d course at 40+ yards in a 25-30 wind gusts you will see some drift. But we are still talking maybe 2" at 40+ yards. But is this relevant on a deers body. Probably not IMO. If you are capable of hitting a deer at 35-45 yards IN THE VITALS ( heart and lungs), is a couple of inches left,right,high or low going to be the determination of a dead or not dead deer ? How many hunters can actually hit within one inch of the dream spot they are aiming at on a live deer in the woods. I'm betting if they hit within 3-4" they have accomplished the kill.

[@brandonwhitlatch379]

I shoot easton axis 4mm, but completely agree with what you said. My argument was always that the broadhead is wider than any arrow shaft

[@stevenwalker9013]

I thought so to, but I put my broad heads on and shot micros beside my standard shafts and micros were penetrating several inches deeper. Broadhead is pulling arrow thru, easier to pull a pencil thru vs a broomstick. So I don’t know but I’m blowing thru deer so I’m sticking with them

[@rickjames2618]

@@stevenwalker9013were you testing in a target that uses friction on the shaft to stop arrows or were you testing in an animal that has built in lubricants?

[@ericbaumann9561]

It's all about the area of the broadhead, fletchings, and shaft. Area is what catches wind. The area of the shaft is FAR greater than either the broadhead, or the fletchings. Smaller diameter shafts mean less area.

[@brokenarrow6491]

I shoot through everything with standard diameter arrows so I don't see any benefit for me personally. I used to shoot Easton aluminum 2413's so everything is micro compared to those lol.

[@sHaLeMoNeY87]

Nice walk through on opinions

[@jimputnam7539]

How did it take me so long to find this information on micro diameter arrows? Very interesting and worth a field test comparison in my uninformed opinion!!

[@kwadebruce9134]

oh for sure! I want to see a test. with a shooting machine in a damn wind tunnel or something. especially the wind drift idea. how much difference could it really make?

[@theMobileHuntersEXPO]

Depends on how far you’re shouting. 40 and in? Sure. Shooting out at 80-100. They matter. A lot. But normally most people around here aren’t shooting very far. I agree that the penetration factor really isn’t a thing. I’m having trouble comprehending how a 300 spine micro or nano isn’t gonna recover the same as a 300 spine 204/224/246 etc. Engage me Chad. 😂

[@chadsylvester8336]

It has to do with the oscillation of the back end of the arrow. Again, we talking in generalities...but micro diameter shafts seem to have a larger footprint on the back end that increase drag. From what we understand right now, this is from the thicker wall size and material properties when being launched from a compound with 80% or more and faster than 280 fps. If you're shooting slower it's more minimal with the exception of cross wind influence. We have a lot more content to do around arrows, components, etc so time will tell but we're excited to go down these worm holes and educate ourselves further and share our findings. It's a deep worm hole man!!!!

[@theMobileHuntersEXPO]

@@chadsylvester8336 it’s awesome to dive down them isn’t it?! I could need out all day on it man. When I was competing, it blew my mind when I figured out the things that separate a decent archer from a good archer. And a good archer from a scary archer. Make sure y’all have your bows at the expo. Especially Friday night. We will have a freakin blast! I’ve found that what you’re putting on the back end of the arrow means soooooo much. Basically you can’t get into heavin if you don’t run four fletch. It’s in the Bible. 😂

[@gordonneverdies]

Do they shoot any flatter? That would be a legit selling point.

[@huntermazzio713]

Gold tip22 diameter arrows at 440grains ZIP through whitetail no problem. People really overthink arrow weight and diameter.

[@earlofcockwood4757]

1. Thinner arrows have thicker walls, so the can transport energy better and more direkt into the game. 2. If you shoot same vanes, same broad-head 50 meter with .245 and .166 the thinner shaft will be a feet above the .245. Always!

[@lukebryant5017]

Boot gaiters are for guys that kiss guys

[@gooberdooberwunderb]

They do My micro diameters go all the way through my practice target… And my thicker shaft arrows don’t even come close

[@wurdwalkupridedown7829]

I’ve been thinking similarly about the micro diameter arrows. A good setup standard diameter arrow will have no issues passing through a whitetail even with catching ribs or the scapula. So why is a better penetrating arrow necessary lol. Most of us are already shooting overkill setups for deer.

[@Shafries]

They bring up some interesting things, but I have to disagree with the wind resistance topic. Look to the target archers shooting 90 meters outdoors. There's a reason they all shoot super micro diameter X10's instead of larger shafts. They need every advantage in the wind. I would assume that would also apply to a hunting arrow?

[@collinslangley361]

I can vouch for Sitka gear. I dropped the money on a lot of their stuff back in 2016. I have beaten that hell out of that stuff from briars to mud in the Mississippi delta. Long story short none of it’s torn up or been thrown away. It’s not faded and has held up for a long time.

[@mersanary]

I’m new for he concept of being more accurate. My concern IS actually penetration. I have right groupings but I want to try and create an entrance and exit wound. That’s why I consider smaller diameter arrows. But I plan on shooting both depending on where I hunt

[@The_hopeful_hunter]

I'd like to see a test shooting micro diameter though brush vs standard.

[@chadsylvester8336]

We definitely have some more arrow content coming down the pipeline! Stay tuned in!!!!

[@collinslangley361]

I want to see it on a high speed cam

[@trob205]

I think the, for lack of a better term, meat head knuckle draggers that have long draws and insisting on shooting 80+ lbs are finally uncovering issues in the modern setup. Quite honestly a lot of it is a wash at speeds slower than 275-270 barring youre not underspined. And the only system that’s out there to help long draw/heavy poundage guys is Dorges inner tube system which is just effectively shorting the working spine of the arrow and essentially just making it stiffer. Dropping down to 60 lbs and keeping my 70 lbs arrow setup has opened my eyes to the “overspined” world that actually has no negative bearing on the arrow other than potential excess weight. Back in the trad days you needed the perfect spine to bend the arrow around the bow shelf. True center shot systems like the modern bow we have today it’s not so much the case. I have a 300 spined 28.5” 490 grain .166 arrow being shot out of a 60 lbs bow and bareshaft it’s fully recovered at 3 yards and still good out to 7-8 yards. Basically a long winded, I already lost everyone way of saying if you’re going to push the limits of arrow length and draw weight .166 isnt your answer. The guy shooting a short draw 70 or the average guy shooting 60 just wanting a good avg setup won’t suffer from the same tuning issues because they fall in the middle of the spine charts and have options.

[@chadsylvester8336]

Awesome comment! The scenario you're describing is exactly what I was going through last season in attempt to get .166 250 spine arrows to perform out of a 80lb 30" DL rig.

[@trob205]

@@chadsylvester8336 damn son! And you said Ranch Fairy and I’m sure had 200+gr up front. That’s a tough task for any arrow lol. I have a 30.5” draw but I cut my arrows as short as possible (halfout sleeve 1/4-1/8” from the launcher, which no one should just do without being 100% in tune with their natural hand position and knowing for sure they aren’t going to a lose a finger). My setup is shooting 268 fps with a 490 grain setup at 60 lbs. Not a whole lot is going to stop that arrow in North America. Your arrow would probably tighten right up at 70 lbs and cut a short as you could comfortably handle (I know I know some are cringing at that advice because the ranch fairy said don’t do that) If I was forced to shoot a 30” arrow and horsepower is on the brain, you pretty much would have to use Dorges system and I wouldn’t give two shits about FOC because that arrow is long AF anyway.

[@russelllangworthy8855]

@@trob205 Your initial comment was very offensive.

[@trungnguyen9860]

While i agree the broad head will affect the flight of the arrow more than the arrow diameter for target shooting diameter makes a mig difference. Maybe less so for guys that shoot with sights but here’s an experiment. Setup a micro diameter and a standard arrow with roughly the same weight. Than measure poa and POI For both

[@Adlautz]

I agree with the micro diameters being a “gadget” to a certain extent. I shoot a 28 inch draw 75 pound bow. I’ve Shoot axis .204 for many years and a 340 spine always grouped really well for me. After last season I wanted to try micros so I bought a dozen axis long range arrows in a 340 spine. My groups out past 50 were horrible! I came to the conclusion that if I wanted to shoot these arrows I needed a 300 spine to make up for lack material being pushed by the same power stroke. I bought 300 spine to verify and my groups struck down outside of yards. That’s a long winded way of saying if you want to buy micro buy the next Spine up. Cheers bitches

[@RudyHassallPMP]

Arrows are a great debate topic, for sure. One needs to keep in mind that the discussion should stay on the same measurement. You can't ID and OD inter-changeably. I hunt eastern whitetails, bear, and turkey, along with antelope, muleys and elk in the west. I shoot both 4mm and 5mm. .166 ID arrows have a .236 OD .166 ID arrows have a .238 OD .204 ID arrows have a .265 OD I shoot regularly in the wind, as there seems to be constant wind due to the funneling effect from the nearby hills. I still do not have a clear decision on which arrow is "best for me", using the same fletching and broadhead. If you would like to test penetration, use ballistic gel, not a 3-D target or foam target. Or if you have access to it, you test on a quarter of meat with the hide attached. I have been using the FL Gaiters for 3+ years and they are great in all hunting scenarios east and west.

[@carlparisi9749]

I’ve had pass throughs with a 4mm shafts every time.. so far anyways. Fixed blade with a decent arrow setup is all you need for whitetail. Most guys are not shooting past 30 yards.

[@MCLIcpfan000]

Ok I don’t mean to be negative but it’s m x v2 Mass x veloscity squared. Velocity is exponentially.

[@mr.skeptical3071]

Ranch fairy is "to the extreme." However, he has made me build a much better arrow

[@tedmelgo3313]

The best arrow to shoot? The one I can afford to buy.

[@sinepari9160]

IF you're shooting 50+ yards in a hard sidewind.. yes they do

[@madman432000]

Are micro diameter arrows only the 166's? I thought 204's fell into that category as well but maybe not???

[@juffurey]

Sorry but the part about the arrow "recovering" sounds wrong, I mean, just get a higher spine; I'm barely a beginner but that sounds straightforward. Are you saying that a lower diameter shaft of the same spine rating will be stiffer? That sounds sketchy. If you need more mass and/or weight, then go with a different shaft material.

[@georgetorres6245]

I thought that gators was a protection from snakes

[@houghtonic1975]

If you have a 30" arrow, the microdiameter arrow at .244 OD is right at 7.32 sq inches of surface area facing the cross wind. I estimate the average broadhead and blazer vanes is roughly 4 sq inches of surface area facing the cross wind. So a total of 11.3 sq inches. A small diameter arrow at .266 OD is 8 sq inches. That would make a total of roughly 12 sq inches. A 6% increase in surface area and thus drift. A standard diameter arrow at roughly 0.3" diameter is 9 sq inches, total of roughly 13 with your vanes and broadhead. That is 15% more surface area, translating to 15% more drift than a micro diameter. I'd say the difference between micro diameter and a small diameter is quite negligible, but the difference between a micro or small diameter and a standard, if not crazy, is at least noticeable. I couldn't agree more on gaiters. Not much can get worse than hiking out in the morning not wearing them and your socks are now wet the rest of the hunt.

[@robertvanderlick2906]

I shoot the Easton axis 4mm long rang arrow, I shot it to keep my arrow weight at 450gr, if I had a 300 spline. 250in shaft the weight would be 100 grans heavier

[@toddlymburner5783]

I had a big problem with the durability with the 4mm nocks. I use heavier poundage and the nocks would get soft and break on the shit and doing this horrible partial dry fire. And if I shot tight groups and i hit the back of an arrow with a 4mm knock it would break the nock very easily and also peeled back the back of the arrow making unusable! A 5mm arrow seems to be the best of both worlds.

[@cantgetenoughoutdoors3258]

I bet your favorite show is "MYTH BUSTERS" haha

[@chadsyl23]

😂

[@ericbaumann9561]

It's about surface area as far as wind drift. An arrow shaft has FAR more surface area than a broadhead or fletchings. Smaller diameter shaft means less surface area. It's still going to be more than the broadhead or fletchings though. I have shot micros for 10+ years, and can say they do penetrate deeper than even a .204, as well as maintain speed better. Smaller diameter shaft mean more force applied directly behind the broadhead. Granted, not much difference there, but every bit helps. In a properly tuned bow, the micros will always out penetrate, out fly, and have greater speed retention than a .204 or standard shaft.

[@peterbuchholz1735]

How do you guys feel about tapered shafts then?

[@jackbuendgen389]

Giant gimmick. Very difficult to make. Arrow makers can't build them to the same standards as normal arrows. If you're wanting to build a high penetrating arrow there are far easier and less expensive shafts available in today's market. A black eagle rampage would be a great starting point

[@chadsyl23]

I would agree with @jack

[@bbmas1930]

I think the arguement of 246 vs 166 just keeps things coming back to 204’s. Not because of a split the difference thought train but because of tangible things. 166 forces you to run a large amount of outsert and even if collared you end up with nearly an inch of inserts hanging forward of the carbon and levering it. 246 can’t really use collars at all. But 204 let’s you run a proper insert where the BH legitimately screws into the shaft YET you can collar the entire end as well. Seems to me to be the shaft diameter of choice if you want as close to guaranteed structural strength as you can get.

[@YoureSoVane]

Oh boy, here we go. The idea that the arrow absorbs energy from its forward momentum to stop vibrating and flexing is wrong. There's complicated physics to prove it, but that's just not how it works. The arrow will have two forms of kinetic energy: its motion and its vibration and oscillation. Once the arrow leaves the bow, the oscillation will only affect velocity via aerodynamic drag. You're mistaking it for the idea of converting less energy into oscillation at the bow, which would put more of that energy into the bow or into the arrow's velocity. Internal friction to dampen vibration will not affect velocity, but if you absorb the vibration completely you'll improve penetration slightly. The arrow will have less flex into the target. Micro diameters don't drop as much as the .246s at distance. Coefficient of aerodynamic drag is significantly different between the two. There's a huge difference in drop due to the reduced shaft drag and smaller nock. You can get away with smaller vanes on .166 arrows due to the further back center of pressure from its reduced overall drag. It's Poncelet's equation for penetration, not momentum. Frontal area and multiple coefficients are factored in. Nobody talks about it because it's calculus, and not all of the necessary constants are known for all scenarios, which is why experimental data is still the driving force for predictions on penetration. Comparisons of diameter and wall thickness would put .203 shafts in the goldilocks zone of stiffness to weight, within reason for wall thickness. The massive indoor target shafts are obnoxiously stiff, but with durability and drag issues. Half the wall thickness but twice the diameter is still much stiffer than the reference shaft, but much less durable. .166 shafts should be, on average, much more durable than equivalent .246 shafts. If you presented the right information, you might have been more convincing, but you're missing a lot and misunderstanding a bit. The cost/benefit analysis might still sway away from .166 arrows, but this is not a sufficient argument for the case.

[@chadsyl23]

Absolutely awesome answer and feedback!!! We have some more content coming out showing more “math” and field case studies to support our case. As you mentioned there are so many variables to each and every scenario that in 5 minutes it’s impossible to cover everything so we tried to generalize as much as we could. With that said, I will still argue the oscillation and stored energies within the shaft doesn’t affect down range momentum. Last week we did side by side testing with .166, .204, .246, and .300 determining POI vs POA. I also understand the diameter difference alone will raise POI. Some of our future content will be really really interesting.

[@YoureSoVane]

@@chadsyl23 I can't wait to see your results. It's in context unrelated to archery, but the physics involved were almost directly comparable. Alpha Phoenix testing the speed of motion, where he found that vibration and motion were independent. 14.30 in this video describes it, but the rest is still pretty interesting. kzbin.info/www/bejne/eqLLiaZ7nLGAgJI I'm curious to see how you got around the diameter difference on that test.

[@chadsyl23]

@@YoureSoVane I believe the easiest way to show down range momentum comparison is using a radar, collecting FPS at 20,30,40,50, etc. with mass being equal between all builds. It’s still up in the air if we’ll have a hooter shooter for that. It would be nice to have it to take out additional variables but we’ll see what we come up with. Thanks for the link and additional physics info. We’ll be sure to dive into that!

[@NashJohnson774]

Couldn’t agree more. Even if the oscillation argument was valid, it’s equal and opposite. Meaning that if it actually takes more energy to get the micro diameter shaft to stop oscillating, it also takes more to make it oscillate and because energy input doesn’t vary, it’s a moot point.

[@obionewheelkenobi689]

@@chadsyl23 were you punching the trigger like you have tourettes again

[@josephtreadlightly5686]

My concept for shooting the micros is that with a 300 spine arrow & only shooting around 65 lbs. that I am able to get a lower g.p.i. to achieve the proper spine. With my long draw length if I wanted to go over 70 lbs which I don't prefer & would have to go to a heavier arrow g.p.i. with a stiffer spine. As far as I know the Victory VAP TKO which is very stout only goes to a 300 spine. Say I shoot a Victory Xtorsion regular diameter 300 spine arrow it's also has the durability but the g.p.i. is off the charts & getting an acceptable f.o.c. puts u into the 650 grain range. I wouldn't be using those arrows in my setup unless I'm looking to do a close range bear or pig hunt. The setup & style of game dictates your bow setup. Going west is a much different game than being near the Mississippi River or eastward in a 🌳. I really enjoyed your video with Dorge & the node of your arrow. Also the Aerobump seems like a Gear & not a gimmick. I noticed your Prime like the ones I shoot was quiet in that video. I'm looking to do this even though mine r noticeably quiet as they stand. Thanks for the great content.

[@nicksampo2786]

Micro Diam arrows help in two ways , (1) they allow you a lower GPI allowing you to gain FOC when building arrows .For ex a 9.5 gr shaft will be very hard to obtain a 15% FOC and have say a 460 gr arrow at 29 in , this can be easily fixed with a micro ,IF you likje 11 % FOC then its a non issue (2) Recovery , you menton recovery is longer ...regardless of arrow diam the arrows that are stiffer and thicker walled will recover quicker , This is possible both with micro and standard size shafts , You also mention a target does not represent any meens of evidence as to penetration and stated the broadhead represents the steering / penetration factors yet you admit the micros are harder to pull from targets and penetrate further hmmmm ? .IF IF IF you shoot two arrows at 30yards both 450 gr with identical BH and fletching and one is a .166 the other .300 why does the .166 pentrate further into the target when the variables are the same ? Why does the POI remain identical or very very close for both arrows if the micro has lost energy ?? Taking a deer with any size arrow at 20-25 yards can be accomplished with just about ANY arrow /BH combo however at distances say above 50 yrd + the micro would be far better suited .. Elk hunters taking 60 + yard shots as well as long distance comps mostly use micros ... why is that ? interesting vid and you are giving your opinion and thats great but its an opinion and not backed by physics , most hunters not interested in using/ trying micros have issues with poor quality factory components thus the opinions ( I agree ) however companies like Ethics and Iron will have developed Top noth components making micros very very good . Try shooting a micro and standard arrow (same TAW ) and Field point at 20 and 30 yards then switch to identical BHs ..you may be surprised at what you see . Nice Video

[@timl8302]

First thing...Nick, try Ethics Archery components. They should help with FOC ( The inserts have cut off weights). ....Yes, I agree that the smaller diameter arrows will go through muscle & sinew better as they close back in. Oh, Dr. Ashby rates arrow diameter as #5 - "There is a substantial INCREASE in penetration when the shaft of an arrow is at least 5% smaller in diameter than the back of the broadhead’s ferrule". So, many.204s count too. I'm in the middle of a just sub-RF change over I have .166 Orions 250sp w/260gr up front = 525gr & 21%FOC. I may go to a .204 300sp ( Around 525gr total) instead. So, I'm just looking at the mini & micro for GPI to fit my total weight & FOC ranges. Heavier arrows retain more Momentum, KE & Velocity more than lighter arrow. Do you Exodus guys want an arrow shaft that is the same or larger than your broadhead ferrule?..........OK, I did it back in the 80's. But, I was pulling 85+# & shooting .001 straightness aluminums & a 125gr head.But, Beeman's hadn't put out their micro diameter then & they weren't for 85# bows. .Still an interesting topic to bring up in this video!.👍 PS if you all are going 4mm/.166 or .5mm/204 get external footers for extra front end protection (Especially. with a HIT inserts).

[@thewhitetailexperience6055]

I shoot micro shafts. They kinda suck to pull out of a target hahaha

[@chrisweber5041]

I went back to 125 grain and my total weight is near 530. I’m glad I went back to a heavier arrow with a two blade, fixed. Pass through all day long!

[@indianapublicland7429]

530 alittle overkill 480 best of both worlds!!

[@chrisweber5041]

@@indianapublicland7429 perfect for my setup

[@timl8302]

I'm a hair below ya. Overkill on deer & Elk bones?...LOL! Oh, radar testing show our arrow retain more Momentum, KE & velocity than his 480gr. Also, going with 125gr Magnus with bleeders. Can't beat a lifetime warranty.

[@MrBgwolf]

I have shot both the micro arrow and the traditional carbon fiber. There is good and bad for both. In high winds I have had better luck with a field tip shooting targets with the micro. how ever I didn't get the pentation. I had a tighter shot group. That being sed. When I have had better pentation on targets and animals with a 340. I hunt elk and dear. I use mechanical hunting tips.

[@jackbuendgen389]

You guys also forgot to mention that micro components are generally less durable than 245 and 204 diameter components.

[@chadsylvester8336]

Valid point for sure! With 5 minutes it's tough to cover anything in depth, but we do have some more arrow content coming down the pipe!

[@timl8302]

@@chadsylvester8336 True, but, there are new items that help like external footers/sleeves & half outs.

[@EPYCMX]

That theory of doing more working because it flexes less i call BS... that is spine... atht is how we measure spine, putting weight to get a certain flex... so that is not a variable, that is a constant, you will use a MD arrow at 300 spine or a standard arrow at 300 spine, they do the same "work" on flexing... Also... how come is a an animal different than a foam block? friction is friction...

[@camthecameraman5096]

Micro-shafts; major problems

[@steveyd101]

Micro arrows are really good at going through your target and messing up your fletching... And destroying your target quicker because of outserts.... That's about it lol. Great for manufacturers though.

[@BDJans]

I bought a crossbow target. It helps stop the arrows faster so the fletchings don’t get messed up. Outserts still mess up the target quick though

[@benathens3294]

I agree Micro shafts are a gimmick

[@darcyfloreani9722]

Assuming money isn't an issue, I think you get a very durable arrow with lower gpi. This allow for a bit more weight up front. Ethics outsert make them even more durable. Downside....no good illuminated nock option.

[@chadsylvester8336]

We've actually had more .166 break in the past 3 years than other diameter shafts. Yes, the wall thickness should make the more durable but the material properties, memory effect, and location of the node on the arrow seem to give the same exact (not exact but in the same area)failure point. Carbon weave vs carbon molded are probably a lot different in those terms too. This is a never ending worm hole but as we continue to explore we'll be sure to share our findings. Thanks for watching and engaging!

[@darcyfloreani9722]

@@chadsylvester8336 Great video and thank you for your reply. I'm very open minded to change. So let's say that they aren't much better. Are they worse or just more expensive for the same outcome. It's a pain in the butt to change your setup as you know.

[@westernslopermax216]

When I went to school it was PERFORM not PREFORM

[@ExodusOutdoorGear]

😂 thanks for pointing that out

[@jamesmuhlbeier9032]

I agree and disagree. Penetration gains on animals in minimal although ashby did find it in his testing to matter... not sure what to make of that and if it applies to compounds. Wind drift it definitely does make an impact. a .166 vs a .246 is changing the height of the vane by .08. while the shaft diameter itself has some impact it is how much it raises the surface area where the vane sits and also gives you better clearance. I have tested the difference of impact and if tuned to the arrow the difference of impact is due to the .246 sitting higher on the rest. I have seen both ran through a lab radar micros maintain speed slightly better. It takes more work to stop oscillating in a smaller arrow but it also has less oscillation to begin with and has less friction through the air. A larger diameter arrow will be less finnicky to tune for sure though. I have found better durability due to wall thickness in a .166. Like anything it really comes to tailoring to your hunting conditions. If I was a whitetail guy in had short shots a .204 would be a no brainer as it also has better components but in south Dakota and MT where it blows and stuff is wide open I chose a heavy .166 the wind drift is the real deal out here and I test it frequently out to 80 the difference in max stealth or max hunters out of my set up compared to silent knight 2.0 is 4-6 inches with field tips in a 10-15 mph wind. That is with a 550 gr arrow going 270 fps at 80

[@jeremeklopp3010]

If micros are a gadget, why do most competitors shooting outside use them? They are ballistically more efficient. Your micros shot low because your bow was tuned for the .246. Your rest was too low for the micro shaft. Paper tune two bows at the same velocity. The .166 will always outperform the .246 in drop and windage, given identical spine, vane/helical, and overall weight. This is like saying a 150gr .30cal bullet will fly flater and retain more energy than a 150gr .284 bullet going the same velocity. I'll concede that penetration will be negligible at best, but the ballistics are undeniable.

[@C.Adams82]

Do you consider.204 micro diameter?

[@extremesam9]

Why not do a video that actually proves what you’re saying? I’ve shot all of the different diameter arrows. Small and micro diameter arrows have penetrated better on animals for me. Without a video actually proving your statements it all just looks and sounds like your opinion. would love to see a video proving that a .246 arrow keeps its velocity better than a micro diameter arrow when the weight is the same.

[@jasonbowering4020]

Finally someone telling the truth about micro diameter shafts, couldn't agree with you more on all 3 topics, thanks for all that you do.

[@chadsyl23]

Thanks for watching!!!

[@indianapublicland7429]

They do help with wind drift no if ands or buts!!! I believe the outserts makes the arrow stronger on impact also.

[@johnpejakovich8848]

Actually I have to shoot lower poundage and I definitely get better penetration and way more accurate down range. It 30 more than any premium arrow and has better tolerances. Talk gimmick and the talk Sitka?

[@lawrencefranck9417]

Rubber boots. Lacrosse 18 inch

[@takemeoutdoors6939]

Love my micros victory vap tkos all im saying is there expensive but rarely ever do they break where other non micros seem to break damn near everytime I shot a deer. In the long run I feel like that factor alone saves me money, a dozen arrows last forever.

[@TheJonathanGibbonsTeam]

Micro shafts are a gimmick 100%…. I’ll be waiting to hear Jake’s answer in upcoming videos 😊😊😊

[@austinphillips9966]

Mark drury told me if I don’t shoot 4mm I can’t kill deer

[@chadsyl23]

😂

[@jeroneboggs3963]

Overall micro shafts are better...the surface area is smaller...they are much faster...they create more energy for impact.....in terms of foc.....I would test them against any shaft....Im certain they will perform on the high side of our standards.....For long range they perform alot better than thicker standard shaft we have been shooting..... especially if you shoot high poundage bows....Ive seen the standard shafts drop tremendously when shooting low poundage bows.....but micro dont show as much drop.....they perform better.....does that say standard shaft are bad no....but micro show you a different tune I'm sorry....God Bless

[@gooberdooberwunderb]

And they are less influence by crosswind… Anyone that knows anything about ballistics knows that

[@omarcurbelo5342]

Half the video turned into a sitka commercial. 🤦‍♂️

[@jefflovesdogs9973]

I disagree with this guy. He states that because of the thicker wall shaft of the .166 inside diameter shaft, that it does more work, thus taking more energy to straighten out in flight. I think this is BS. A .300 deflection shaft is a .300 deflection shaft, as long at it deflects to .300. I seriously doubt the .166 inside diameter shaft used more energy deflect to .300 than a .300 deflection shaft of a larger inside diameter. And how would you test this?? I partially agree with the fletching being on one end of the arrow and the broadhead on the other being what "grabs" the wind the most; however, the smaller diameter shaft is still presents a smaller area exposed to the wind compared to a larger diameter shaft, which presents a larger surface area exposed to the wind. How much better in the wind is the smaller diameter shaft? Use Kestrels to figure out how fast the wind is blowing from you to the target, which means multiple Kestrels, and go from there. Note that wind must be blowing the same speed from the same direction all the way to the target for each diameter shaft. Best thing to do is contact an engineering college that has a wind tunnel and then compare shaft diameters relative to wind. That would be something to pull off, but consider this, we know from Berger bullets that a secant ogive bullet has a smaller nose profile than most tangent ogive bullets and this helps the bullets fly better in the wind, and Berger bullets have set more records in 1,000 benchrest shooting than any other bullet. So why not just get a smaller diameter shaft of your liking and realise you will have less wind drift than a larger diameter shaft, all other things being equal, and go practice shooting in windy conditions to find out what you can and cannot do in the wind, and use what you can do for hunting situations , and avoid the things you know you can't. Maybe a raging 30 mph cross wind is too much for you, but perhaps you can handle a 10-12 mph crosswind out the 30 yards, and a 40 yd shot with no wind, for example.

[@bloodlines9610]

They're a gimmick to you cause your trying to sell arrows you make that are the size of light poles. Also coming from guys who trust the man from Fire nock.

[@gibsonlife573]

I do not see you winning this argument argument the micro diameter parallel is Amber arrow is known for Professional archery world for that reason is it better arrow flight not just that but I don't think you're gonna find A204 diameter and has near the thick wall that a micro diameter 166 victory map are A-day 60 with the 166 interdiamond are now the day 6 arrow does have a regular OD it's not a little bit bigger I can tell you now I've shot all the arrows and if you hit s*** with them legacy explode that day 6 and the victory map I am hit hard hard objects and not broke the at all If you note him Gillingham I am he says hes killed dear with a triple X which is a target arrow shaft I think it's 2764 so it just depends but that thick wallet's make roll build such good structure Russia I think

[@obionewheelkenobi689]

Well it's official these guys are bozo trigger punchers. Why do you think target archers shoot micro diameter. You need to do your testing past 50 yards bro

[@jonesoutdoors9901]

Actually most target archers shoot bigger diameter arrows because it helps them hit the lines on a 10 ring or 12 ring ect. when being on the edge of a line counts the bigger shafts help

[@obionewheelkenobi689]

@@jonesoutdoors9901 no long range shooters do not

[@jonesoutdoors9901]

@@obionewheelkenobi689 define long range? Most shooters i know shoot slightly larger arrows

[@indianapublicland7429]

I can tell your not a long range target shooter!!

[@jonesoutdoors9901]

@@indianapublicland7429 Not sure if you were saying that me or not. Usually a bigger diameter arrow can help get you on the line of a 10 ring or 12 ring on the target……if your shooting very long range outdoor shots such as 80 to over a hundred yards the smaller diameter arrow would be less affected by wind and you can’t argue with that either.

[@mikekupetsky6879]

I don't believe it's a gadget do believe you get better penetration and I've seen it first-hand also as far as traditional archers are concerned which I am one most traditional bows or not cut the center so a micro diameter shaft benefits us greatly like getting closer to Center