Arrow Momentum & Speed Deprivation Testing: Is Ranch Fairy Right?

[@lloydh777]

I guess it depends more on what matters more to you. The heaviest arrow still got there in less than a second at 60 yards. Myself in not going to take a 60 yards shot. At 40 yards or less the heaviest arrow was less than a half of a second. I would rather give up that little amount of time and use the heavier arrow. I'm guessing the numbers to get a pass thru are on a perfect shot? Do them numbers change if you hit bone? That's where the weight will matter more to me. In real hunting situations deer will jump string, you will miss judge distance, or maybe just pull a shot. It will happen some times. for that reason I will go with the heavier arrow and give up tenths if a second. Also how much arch difference would there really be at those speeds? More than a inch at 60? That would be some good info to know if your going to argue that as a reason.

[@wk9953]

I don't think those charts are using any bone at all. I don't think I have ever seen a 372 arrow with a mechanical get a pass through. When using a non cut on contact broadhead you have to subtract the initial opening ke from your actual calculations as that is absorbed at impact before cutting is even done.

[@sigeptexaskappa1]

Agree. Additionally I’ve used light arrows (380-450gr) for a long time on deer, bear, and moose. Pass through for a bear (only killed one), but rarely on deer and never on moose - I killed most, (except a few shoulder hit deer) but according to the chart all should be dead. Sometimes life happens and animals move. You have to be prepared to hit a shoulder. That’s where the heavy arrow shines. Perfect shots are great, but rarely do things happen perfectly in the real world. David killed Goliath with a sling shot. A perfect shot. Would I recommend a sling shot though? No. Sometimes things don’t line up perfectly.

[@allenberkebile8480]

Agree 100%. A pass through in the paunch is much easier than through leg or shoulder bone! Or a quartering away shot from a tree stand. Also the broadhead type, size , and sharpness will all figure into the equation. there is no such thing as too much when it comes to pass throughs.

[@wolfpack4128]

Milliseconds make a huge difference. Go watch deer duck an arrow. Not to mention if you misjudge a deer to be 30 that is 35 with a fast arrow you are 3" low. With a heavy arrow you are 6-8" low.

[@wk9953]

@@wolfpack4128 milliseconds don't matter when they can drop as fast as they can, and sounds like you just pulled numbers out of you bottom for that last part. Heavier arrows are easier to predict trajectory on because the lose less velocity over all and maintain a relative equal fall across the full range. And if you misjudge an animal by that much that close then you need more practice or to range more (especially your surroundings)

[@paulwakefield1015]

Great video. Don’t forget there’s 12 factors to getting the best penetration possible on your shots. Weight is important but there’s 11 other important factors.

[@timl8302]

True, if you can follow the first 7 of them. You should do great. 11. Deals with Tanto Tips. #12 Deals with heavy bones (like large pigs & deer, elk knuckle joints & ball sockets).

[@adamclaycomb840]

Very well done!! I’m sticking to my 475-505gn arrows. Just a matter of changing from 100gn to 125gn field tip/ broad heads.

[@ThirdDayOutdoors]

❤️❤️

[@Dan77845]

The only thing left out of this analysis is arrow drop over distance. If you are making 60+ yard shots for elk, then this becomes relevant.

[@kurtficocelli3721]

I will keep using my Apollo 300 spine 598 grain 20% FOC out my 65 pound bow with my short 25.6 inch draw (Yep 25.6) shooting inside 30 yards and keep on smiling as my 200 grain single bevel tuff head passes through. Happy Hunting

[@PewterC5FRC]

I watched this video half in the bag and three sheets to the wind before 9am on a Saturday morning, but this was the most informative video I've come across yet to explain what arrow weight I need to kill an animal.

[@thesleevelessfisherman2645]

Been looking an fuckin around a bunch with research on arrows as far as weight. This is by far the best technical spec video I’ve found.

[@brettwelch8368]

Finally someone looks at all the numbers, not just one facet. I have said for years, build the arrow you need for the game your hunting. If your hunting wood chucks in your back yard you don't really need the same arrow of someone shooting a griz. Anytime someone told me well you always need to use X, just walked away. I never use definitives lol.

[@camthecameraman5096]

100%! A lot of factors go into it! In this case, all of these arrows are adequate for Whitetails, comes down to what flies the best from your bow and confide!

[@chrisruzsa2798]

Except for one number and that is the moment to open a mechanical. If you are using fixed blades sure but most people go for the larger cut and most people don’t realize the energy dump just to open a mechanical. Light arrows hardly get full passthroughs for this reason. And that leads to wounded or lost deer.

[@camthecameraman5096]

@@chrisruzsa2798 you’re right about that, we didn’t include that because we are actually testing the amount of KE lost with mechanicals at impact. It’s a much tougher test to execute but it’s in the works

[@chrisruzsa2798]

@@camthecameraman5096 thats a hard test so i can fully respect that. Different mechanicals will have different energy dumps from what I understand its safe to say 50-70 ke is required for the average mechanical. Above i commented 70 ke because that is assuming crossbow there is a difference between vertical and crossbow. So much goes into this and to be honest if you don’t have a properly tuned weapon and arrows or bolts from tip to nock it doesn’t matter if you are heavy or whatever tuning is extremely important. I never knew exactly how important until very recently.

[@camthecameraman5096]

@@chrisruzsa2798 I couldn’t agree more. I personally think a heavy arrow is fine. A heavy GPI. I don’t like high FOC mixed with micro diameter shafts. They’re just hard to tune. High let off compound bows are not the best fit for that combo. Now a trad bow, with a micro shaft at 650gr and 19% up front is 💰. Physics suggests the opposite for compounds

[@austinwald7169]

Great content and great breakdown. I personally have went a bit heavier (about 460grains) which has been at the expense of trajectory for long range shooting but I like most eastern whitetail hunters primarily hunt and take shots within 30 yards from an elevated stand. Given that, I’ll take the massive difference in kinetic momentum and energy over the difference of .03 seconds to impact of target.

[@WILDBILLSOUTDOORS]

I would make the choice based on my hunting style, what I found interesting in your chart was there was hardly any difference in time to target at 20 yards. So, if you are strictly a tree stand hunter and hunting mainly in the thick stuff, wich is what a lot of us do here in the south where I hunt, then I would sacrifice speed for penetration. But If I was more into spot and stalk, or open land hunting I would find that happy medium in the 400 to 450 grain range so that I could have a good trajectory and still have a little bit of overkill for penetration.

[@elkstalker6236]

Elk hunting and my arrows are 450 gn, works for me.

[@sheyanderson4371]

The Killer Arrow blog/article you show in the video just uses a standard Easton KE chart. Then with the IBO testing standards, they did some calculations to come up with their own rough Momentum for game chart. I understand it was a source to use for the general purpose of the video, but they weren't actual number requirements for a pass through. After looking at many of those charts out there, such as the Real Tree chart, they have much higher numbers for each category of game. So the ones referenced in the video, I would argue they should be used as minimum requirements for just lethality, at best and not optimal numbers for a passthrough. The idea of reaching required momentum as soon as possible with a setup is sound and reasonable, but should error on the higher end of those numbers and error on using them as a minimum. 0.349-0.433 slug fps for large game and 0.481-0.532 slug fps for toughest game were cited in that article shown in the video. Personally, I would error on using the toughest game numbers for large game and I would shoot for that 0.532 slug fps number at the end of my effective range. That would increase my chances greatly of an ethical kill with ideal conditions and less than perfect shot placement. All that being said, I always enjoy these types of videos and appreciate the time and money spent to do this kind of testing!

[@timl8302]

True. The momentum numbers are really low.

[@jasonard7227]

yea lets hope you dont hit bone with that arrow. my 563 grain arrow is going 279 fps plenty fast and plenty of punch if I hit bone cause we all know everyone says shot placement to bad the deer didnt get that memo and stand still..still cool test thx for the time you spent great video...

[@ThirdDayOutdoors]

😆😂😂

[@KTMsoldier1988]

And a slower arrow alows that deer to move even more! Potentially so much that you miss the vitals! How far can can you drop your body in .1second!

[@Vintage-406]

How did you come up 279FPS? Chrono?

[@KTMsoldier1988]

@@Vintage-406 not unreasonable if he has a 30+ inch draw or an 80 lb bow my 530 grain arrows are going 250 with a 28 inch draw.

[@vog7271]

This is a good study and we love that y’all are putting the time in. In your final analysis I’d be focus on the difference between the 440 and the heavier arrow, because very few people are shooting 300s these days. Those two arrow comparisons I think would be more fair for time to target and the percentages, more realistic for long distance shots

[@jaysunkreuze1466]

This ain't a study. This is an excuse video.

[@shanestout3543]

The testing you just did has already been done and with your theory these numbers will only work in a perfect world

[@robm5100]

Very interesting testing. These results basically verify what many of us have thought for a lot of years. Whats missing though is the difference between air and meat. The differences in this test are only showing the results for air....and on paper the differences are small. Thus you say that at a certain point you're giving up speed for unnecessary momentum. A 10% difference in momentum and efficiency while driving a broadhead through meat and bone is huge. 1000s of real world videos demonstrate this.

[@wolfpack4128]

If the deer drops before the arrow gets there or you misjudge a shot by 5 yards with a heavy arrow all you're going to hit is air anyways.

[@wk9953]

@@wolfpack4128 and if your light arrow does hit it? It's not doing much and just wounding a deer.

[@asherzeeb9271]

Nailed it!

[@decaturridgebees8761]

@@wolfpack4128 I’m a heavy arrow guy myself but that was funny

[@ericsibert9237]

​@@wolfpack4128a deer can(and does as proven by thousands of videos) jump the string of any bow and arrow combination. Even the fastest arrows at 20 yds. Aren't faster than a whitetails response. To your second point, the point of impact difference on a yardage miscalculation isn't near as significant as what some people think. That light arrow may be faster...but loses speed and energy much faster too. The heavy arrow starts much slower for sure...but loses much less energy over any given distance, maintaining its speed. What you end up with is negligible differences in amount of drop in a few yards of miscalculation. The only time there is a valid and significant difference is if you are sighted in for a light arrow....then shoot a heavy arrow and compare the difference. If you are sighted in for heavy and miscalculate by a few yards, the amount of "extra drop" isn't really extra at all. It's negligible and entirely manageable. There are videos showing this too....or test for yourself. I had to test myself because I truly believed a heavy arrow would fall out of the sky on a 5 yard misjudgement. It's simply not true. What this video unequivocally proves is that shooting a heavier arrow really can't hurt you. On the other hand, a light arrow is approaching the cusp of being insufficient for deer at 60 yds....with no substantial benefit to the hunter. All we achieve with a light arrow is fast misses(when we miss), louder bows, and more wind drift with reduced energy, momentum, and penetration ability. Basically no real advantage whatsoever...unless none of that matters and a couple hundredths of a second flight time is the holy grail to someone, regardless of the proof being contradictory.

[@MakingNMemoriesoutdoors]

I will argue on pass through shots and letting a arrow penetrate in deep enough to hit both lungs but flop around as it backs out and cuts and completely destroys the lungs, liver, heart and anything possible inside the animal

[@littlewoody5539]

The reason for heavy arrow is for when u don’t make the perfect shoot and we all been there and u hit a bone less penetration the odds are against you recovering your animal. I’ll take the heavy arrow .

[@whalen83]

Just make a perfect shot every time and you’ll never have to worry about it! /s

[@sgreene2036]

You’re exactly right woody! Nobody is perfect and that’s what we prepare for. Anybody that says they have made a perfect shot on every animal hasn’t been hunting long or they’re full of 💩

[@tonylepley7366]

​@@whalen83watch som of the footage of THP when some of their shots we good, but no penetration. 400 gr arrow 70lb bow with mechanicals, but no penetration. Happens all the time on the tv shows like Lee and Tiffany.

[@southernbowhunter]

Thank you for taking the time to do this test and put all of the data together. Very informative.

[@gmatthewpaul]

I will stick with a 400 grain arrow out of my 60lb Bowtech solution and a 460 grain arrow out of my 80lb PSE Mach 1. I use them for different applications typically. 60lb bow for treestand cold weather sitting and 80lb for western hunting.

[@stephenballard3759]

I'm very grateful for the time and effort you put into videos like this, thank you. I want to take some of the numbers you used in your closing, to help put things into yet ANOTHER perspective. I have never been able to buy into the argument that speed = forgiveness. This is possibly true for range estimation, but not for time to target or shot placement. This is why........ In your closing, you noted that time to target is 15.9% more for the heaviest arrow at the longest range. The argument is that this gives the animal more time to jump to the string. That's obviously true, but how much? Let's assume that both of us can hit what we aim at, and that we aim at the same perfect place. If the animal stands there and takes, it we both hit the same. If the animal jumps the string a bit, and you miss by 3", then I miss by less than 3.5" (15.9% of 3 is .48). If he jumps the string pretty badly, you miss by 6" and I miss by 7". If he goes nuts and you miss by 10", then I miss by 11.5". So, there is little, if any, practical difference. Three inches is plenty to completely change the hit location, engage bone, alter the course of penetration, etc. and 3.5" is barely differrent. 10" is enough to really screw up a shot, or even miss, and 1.5" farther might be better or worse. That's all random. The smarter approach is to maximize lethality, aim for the MOST vital vitals, and use an arrow that that is capable of dealing with the effects of that 3", 3.5", or 6" of movement we cannot control. The thing is I used to hear this argument about speed forty years ago, but they were talking about a difference between 200, and 220 fps. The "speed" guys were as sure then that twenty feet per second was gonna make all the difference. Now we're all being told that 260 is just not fast enough........

[@andysmith8295]

excellent presentation. One thing is for sure- your exactly right as the data shows.The ranch fairy is correct with his findings as well. Shoot the arrow at your trade off decision as they all should work.The real deal is what happens when the animal is hit. Toss a mechanical on any of those and see where you get? I would love to see a real world test of a mechanical at those same arrow weights. My theory is a 100 grain mechanical has a integrity thresh hold at a certain poundage; 60/70/80. I would be willing to bet a 100 grain Grim Reaper, Rage or anything similar does not hold up well at 80 lbs into a bone 100% of the time... and definitely not the 2" skinny blades.

[@StaryOutdoor]

Great work gathering the data! This gives hunters all across North America something to think about when deciding total arrow weight. For me in central and northern WI where all my shots are under 30 yards (usually 20 yard shots) this tells me that an arrow right around 475-500 grains would be ideal. The difference in trajectory and flight time would be minimal (at 30 yards and under) while the increased KE is above the high end of your charts you’ve referenced ensuring me I will get good penetration even when I hit bone. It would be awesome if you had a hooter shooter and were able to measure arrow drop at different yardage with each arrow set up. Cool stuff, keep up the good work and data collection!

[@kevinknox8881]

Great comparisons but I would gladly give up 8/100ths of a second at 60 yards (even less at closer yardage) for the additional benefit of having enough momentum to go through the animal even if, heaven forbid, you clip bone.... that minimal momentum light arrow is passing through ONLY on best case scenarios...

[@bernardlennon8368]

Also, not to be argumentative, but there is no such thing as over kill!!! Dead is dead. But there is such thing as under kill!!! And I know lots of people myself included that wish they would not have gone down the rabbit hole of chasing speed. Once again, awesome content and thanks for your thoughts and findings. Even if I only partly agree with you. It’s great to question things and test things out. That’s how we all learn and become better!

[@rustinpeace7466]

The chart you're referencing was created by Easton according to that article. I would question its accuracy and methodology before making assumptions.

[@joeburke3553]

I'd certainly agree with you....the reccomend ke & momentum for the game, is based off of hitting the animal where ? Broadside and going between the ribs ? Broadside & hitting one rib on entry ? Broadside and hitting a rib on entry and exit ? Further forward and hitting heavy muscle in the shoulder? Quartering away and needing to drive an arrow behind the last rib and into the chest cavity? A full frontal shot and pass through the animal length wise ? So on and so forth.....lots of variables to think about in regards to where and what you hit on the animal

[@camthecameraman5096]

@@joeburke3553 very good points

[@ThirdDayOutdoors]

Easton has been in business way longer than fairy I'll go with Easton!

[@frankschneider5566]

Super good job. Great data. Lots of other factors to consider but one can use this data to help decide whats best for our individual set up. Thanks for doing this for us. I woulda loved to see how all these penetrated in comparison.

[@josephtreadlightly5686]

A heavier arrow will be quieter than a lighter arrow. I'm talking the bow more quiet, not the arrow. So it comes down to a stable arrow that holds it's energy while both the bow & the arrow r @ maximum efficiency. It seems like finding the right fletching/ broadhead combo that is quiet is more of a factor. Yes, time is important. The minutes I spend blood trailing compared to the hours or waiting overnight is more of an issue to me.

[@yourmomma2995]

the faster the arrow gets there, the less the noise matters.

[@josephtreadlightly5686]

@@yourmomma2995 Even if your arrow goes 300 fps a deer can react to 1200 fps. So the whole speed thing is 1/4 of what u need. If a deer moves quickly reacting to the noise u r looking @ a marginal hit & a significant rise in adrenaline 🤔. All r bad things even if u r able to recover the animal.

[@yourmomma2995]

@@josephtreadlightly5686 deer cant react to to 1200fps, i have yet to have a deer "jump the bullet" in over 40 years of hunting them. i also have a crossbow that shoots 350fps and deer just dont have time to react to the sound when the arrow is traveling that fast, and it is LOUD (excalibur matrix 355).

[@josephtreadlightly5686]

@@yourmomma2995 when was the last time u shot a deer within 15 yards with a bow? It sounds like we r talking about 2 totally different subjects.

[@KTMsoldier1988]

​@@josephtreadlightly5686so your argument is to give the deer more time to move their vitals away from the impact of the arrow for a 1-2lb gain in kenetic energy. How far can you move your body in .1 seconds.....I bet pretty far.

[@michaelvstheworld3680]

I shot a doe at 15 yards, quarter to, with a 458 grain FMJ and Montec head. I have a 29" draw and pull 70#. I hit her in the shoulder, not scapula, her shoulder, and it stopped my arrow dead in its tracks. I may have caught one lung based on her breathing, but I watched her walk quarter mile up a steep hill into the woods. I gave her all night, but I tracked her and found the coyotes finished her off. After that, I said never again and went back to my trad roots and built a dangerous game arrow for whitetail. Since then, I have been shooting 715 grains w/ 25% FOC, at 245 fps and a single bevel and have never had to track another deer since. You can kill a deer with a 350 or 400 grain arrow for sure. Just don't hit a bone.

[@bandingolahey6676]

Darn good testing! It's all just trade-offs with arrow weight. Faster arrows drop less but will usually be louder, heavy arrows get to the target slower but better penitration. You could go on and on

[@bradatkinson360]

Totally agree.I have shot double lung pass throughs on Missouri, Kansas and Illinois whitetail using 365gr, 385gr, 438gr, 456gr, 472gr, 512gr. All of the 400+ grain arrows are high FOC with 75gr brass inserts and 100gr Slick Trick stds. The 385 grain arrow will barely pass through both lungs on a mature 270lb buck broadside. I did that and the broadhead was poking through only a few inches on a 20 yd shot. So I went to 438gr and buried them 6 to 10 “ into the dirt after pass through. So plenty of energy and to shorten blood trails on small properties I went to Swhacker 207. Always pass through unless hitting high shoulder. So wait and make good shots. Last 275 buck was 438gr 207 Swhacker double lung from 15 yds and stuck 6” in the ground. The heaviest arrows I have shoot fine but I feel golden at 438gr. I don’t shoot deer over 25 yds but have up to 35yds. It just takes too long to get there beyond 30yds. 438 and 456 gr have been a great balance of trajectory and penetration for my setups on big whitetail. Don’t shoot them in the shoulder, be better.

[@hakopawilkie5690]

This is a great video mate! Taking the extreme ends of the spectrum and bringing some valid considerations to why you'd choose what you'd choose. Like, followed, downloaded. Awesome video! Thank you very much for the knowledge!

[@km6731]

if you're talking about hitting in the boiler room, yes the lightest arrow will do. Last year i was shooting a 550 arrow and had a doe at 20 yards and she was slightly quarting away and didn't realize it, and i hit slightly left as her head was oriented on the left side. I went through her shoulder and into her lower neck and the arrow didnt go all the way though and land on the other side like i want. instead it stayed in her and she broke it off and died, but i broke an expensive arrow. This year im going 650. I can hit 60 just fine. Anytime you are hunting at distance, its only ethical to first range the target before guessing and making a bad shot.

[@The.Shooterbuck.Company]

I switched to a heavier arrow this fall. Switched from a Victory 400g arrow to a 530g fmj. Right off the bat you can see a major difference in speed but like many have said at 20-30yds it doesn’t matter. However, what I did find was that ten yards was a major difference on the sight tape. So much so that I’d rather have a lighter arrow that can accommodate for 20 and 30 without much movement. So now I am back to victory but we’re at 440g and I think that’s the sweet spot. 31” Draw, 73lbs, Mathews V3X

[@BradYaun]

One consideration of all this that was not discussed is how each weight of arrow absorbs Force (F= bow energy). X% of that F is put into the arrow, the remainder of F is noise, vibration, etc. The lighter the arrow (less mass), the less F it is capable of absorbing, and the more noise and vibration it creates. So while the arrow is moving faster to target, it's also creating more noise to do so. Would be cool to see this retested and see how much different the noise difference is, and vibration is on the bow with the different set ups. I do agree that the 440 is an optimal choice between the three.

[@bigz5262]

Your recommended momentum must not include a bone hit. This was really cool to see the numbers though

[@hackmanoutdoors1626]

Exactly the extra KE they did away with for more speed would continue to drive the arrow through bone. I've watched multiple deer get shot 20 yards with lighter arrows and fixed heads and only go in a few inches. When I've made same shot and full pass through with way slower bow and high FOC. Not to mention expandle b.s

[@bigz5262]

@@hackmanoutdoors1626 there was a video where John Dudley got 6 inches of penetration at 12 yards on a muley. He’s one of the best archers in the world so clearly there’s more to it than just “shot placement”

[@dlydly1686]

@@hackmanoutdoors1626 #makeexpandablesgreatagain #fixedbladessucklol

[@ikeyeet8312]

400-420 grain arrow with a COC head like a magnus black hornet is my fav combo right now.

[@trxe420]

This is why the best advice is to pick the trajectory you want and then build the arrow. In all honestly, fast and heavy can get pass throughs and be lethal. I think some things to consider though are heavier arrows are quieter arrows and have less stress on your rig because there is less vibration and more mass to transfer the energy too, but you give up trajectory for that. That may or may not be a problem depending on the terrain you are hunting. This is why I wish these companies would simply allow you to switch out your dial/slider depending on what you are doing, then I can easily build for TAC/Elk/Deer etc. I guess they make money off the sight tape, but it's a PITA. Awesome video btw, I am currently hunting right at this weight, but I am pushing it up to 504 this year with more FOC.

[@ExodusOutdoorGear]

Check out the “extra yardage wheel.” I forget the exact name of it and the company but they make a wheel that you can just slide over your current wheel to have multiple setups!

[@trxe420]

@@ExodusOutdoorGear well dang, that sounds perfect!

[@gradyrobinson-shaw6079]

Thanks for putting the time into this test and leaving it open ended. Everyone should be shooting what works best for them, what flys best for them and what they have confidence in! Within the limits of ethics

[@cdp50359]

This is a calculation based on a clear shot without hitting a shoulder bone or and solid mass of a animal. Ask yourself this. Would you but a truck that barely pulled a camper based on tow weight or would you up the truck size so your truck wouldn't be under such a load. You may not need that extra torque, but you got it if you do

[@AshTilsley_bowhunting]

I was shooting 560grain arrows at pigs and it was good, pass throughs everytime and 2 holes is the goal. I'm going to try 600grain arrow next time and wind the poundage up 2#. Love the info

[@MikeyWoomer]

Love my 420 grain arrows

[@douglash.8862]

Yup,.. 400 to 450 Grains, is a "Money Arrow" with, a little FOC, some Speed, Tuned Stiff Shaft and,.. a SHARP, 2 or 3 Blade, Fixed Head ! My arrows were, 435 gr's ( 50 Gr's of FACT's, Up front ) with, a G-5 Striker and 50 pound, Maxed out limb's on, my PSE, DNA SP Bow, would "Blow Thru", a 13/16th inch OSB Board AND,.. my 3/4 inch thick Cedar Fence plank at, 250 FPS at, 30 yards,.. YUP,.. T'was,.. "Plenty" for, Deer / Elk !

[@1UofACat12]

fine for deer, not so much for elk, especially if the shot isn't a perfect setup.

[@bowbender5095]

This is what the Ranch Fairy doesn’t offer, hard data. This may be the best arrow information I have seen in a long time thanks for posting!

[@davidholliday3286]

You have not been watching the Ranch Fairy lately and his new buddy the rocket man.

[@chrisruzsa2798]

The Ashby reports is all hard data and that is all troy works with lol. Maybe in the beginning he didn’t but him and the team certainly do now.

[@williamdavenport372]

actually it's pretty dangerous info that doesn't translate into actual hunting reality

[@chrisruzsa2798]

@@williamdavenport372 care to explain?

[@williamdavenport372]

@@chrisruzsa2798 I mean this video "arrow momentum & speed deprivation"

[@jimmyanthony6557]

Can you add trajectory loss too? How much more did the heavier arrows fall? I’m much more interested in knowing that vs milliseconds to arrival.

[@steele11WINNING]

Great video, My bow hunting is more elk then WT, I build my arrows for the worste case scenario. If I grip the bow and send an arrow into an elk shoulder what set up will be more lethal arrow. Any arrow could pass through an elk if everything goes perfect.

[@jolookstothestars6358]

Maybe someone already addressed this i didn't read all the comments. But if your shooting a wiz poper (expandable) at whitetail you definitely want the heavier arrow. Also the Ranch Fairy test lab was Texas hogs,hogs are probably 4 times tougher than whitetails. I would never shoot a 370 grain arrow at a hog. Awesome test though,real cool info and professional done!! Thanks

[@whitewiskerz2577]

Well laid out video. Good job

[@theeverydaybowhunter]

There are charts for this that show where maximum penetration and kinetic energy collide based on the arrow weight, bow IBO Speed, draw weight, draw length, etc. Each individual has a perfect arrow for their personal setup. I shoot heavy arrows myself but often worry if I am too heavy for my setup. If you throw a toothpick hard enough it will penetrate the skin, but if you just toss it at someone it's just going to bounce off and hit the ground. Physics matter.

[@casanovafrankenstein8875]

🤣🤣🤣

[@jrmortimer11]

Love the content Cam, keep it coming!!

[@jolookstothestars6358]

I would LOVE to see the same arrows but three different broadheads. A short fixed(Exodus). A long three blade(Magnus Snuffer or Tuff head) A 2 inch mechanical (Sever 2.0) Test the penitration of each broadhead with the different arrow weights. Just a thought. 😁

[@mechanichandz8087]

this was an awesome breakdown! what some others may not think about is the arrow choice for not only WHAT you're hunting but WHERE you're hunting. for me i experience a good mix of open grasslands as well as heavily wooded areas. so having an arrow that still will fly fairly flat in trajectory means i can shoot through some more heavily wooded areas knowing i have clearance. where as if it where a 550+gr. arrow the arc will be more drastic causing more chance for a deflection. i shoot in between at about 480gr and this works best for ME.

[@theincredible9168]

You are correct. I did several arrow builds and sighted my bow in with a 372.5 grain arrow. A heavy 600 grain arrow, I was on my 6 pin at 20 yards. I hunt in hard woods and pines in NC. Bow season, there is limbs and brush everywhere. I'm specifically shooting 25-40 yards. But there are some lanes open that go out to 60. I wouldn't shoot a heavy arrow because of the trajectory and chance of hitting a limb I can't see from that far.

[@mechanichandz8087]

@@theincredible9168 yessir! I'm at a healthy 480gr. And I'm shooting through the same. Some windows to 50 and 60 and I'm super confident out to 70. But I shot my buck here in CA at 45 a few weeks ago through a window and loved the flight path. Beautiful pass through on a big ol muley

[@theincredible9168]

@@mechanichandz8087 That must be nice to have big game like that. I'm hoping in another year or so to head out west hunt elk. Mule deer are really hard to stalk up on.

[@mechanichandz8087]

@@theincredible9168 yeah I'm fairly fortunate. I have a piece of land in my family and they closed all the forests in my zones due to fires, so I hunted that pretty hard and got one. Fairly pleased. One more tag to fill then off to pigs and maybe elk next summer

[@statgenie6575]

Great work. Some say heavier arrow more accurate with smaller groups. Wonder if that is real. That could be a major consideration

[@richardcummings4374]

Look at the Ashby Studies. There’s 12 factors that will increase lethality on the target animal. It’s not just “heavy arrows”. I agree with several other posts- the 12 factors are for Plan B. You’re talking arrows and KE. Talk about what the arrow does when it hits the animal.

[@gradyrobinson-shaw6079]

The Ashby studies were done with trad bows. The power stroke from trad bows is not equal to that of a compound. Flight characteristics are not the same, what an arrow requires to fly well are not the same. How the arrow reacts from a trad bow and from an 85% let off compound are not the same

[@richardcummings4374]

@@gradyrobinson-shaw6079 I can understand your point. But there’s way more to the 12 arrow factors than what you’re saying and the video is saying. When folks hit a deer scapula or humerus and fail to recover the animal, the Ashby studies and Ranch Fairy will make sense. This video proves nothing about what happens to the animal.

[@raybship1]

@@gradyrobinson-shaw6079 Pass throughs on cape buffalo with trad bows do matter IF most people aren't passing through deer! He also didn't have carbon arrows for most of the study or Iphone or a tesla but what he had was factors that enhance lethality in a broad spectrum of shots that ultimately made bow hunting legal in Africa so it should work here

[@garrettrowe7917]

@@gradyrobinson-shaw6079 they use compounds too, maybe actually read the studies. Sometimes they use stick bow or light draw to actually get the arrows to stop. If they all pass through its hard to have data to get results.

[@wk9953]

@@gradyrobinson-shaw6079 bows are literally just machines to deliver energy to an arrow. It is all the same. The amounts are different but otherwise the same.

[@bradyhoglund5630]

I've noticed that heavier arrows seem to be alot more durable too

[@bobbybrewster7435]

And a lot quieter which helps in reaction time of animal moving out of the path of the arrow

[@DrMadMax]

@@bobbybrewster7435 quieter because you effectively decreased the arrow speed. I mean car driving my 20 mph is quieter than one driving by 40-50 mph. The reason it’s quieter is because you have made the arrow heavy enough and slowed it down where the vanes no longer flutter in due to the effect on them that happens at speeds 280fps and higher.

[@VitalyMack]

@@DrMadMax Don't forget that a heavier arrow also comes out with more energy which isn't transferred to the bow itself. Less vibration overall.

[@DrMadMax]

@@VitalyMack that’s not necessarily true …what do you mean when you say more energy? What do you mean by heavier arrow ( big difference between 500 g high FOC arrow and 500g with low FOC?) What do you mean by vibration because actually an arrow with higher FOC equates to overall more vibration especially on the arrow which requires a greater recovery time on the shaft which I turn yields to greater speed depredation and loss penetration down range. For those that like shooting heavy arrows because they say they are quieter don’t understand the real reason as to why. By making an arrow heavier you effectively slowed the arrow down soo much that aerodynamic no longer is a big factor on vane flight and therefore they no longer flutter. The flutter of vanes is the real reason why deers jump when being shot at. If you ever shot an arrow with a nicked fletching/vane you will 💯 know what I am talking about. I recommend you listen to Deer Gear podcasts/Dorge from fire nock. He does a great job of explaining the science and reasoning why high FOC arrows are not beneficial for a modern compound.

[@VitalyMack]

@@DrMadMax I'm sure you can use several energy calculations that will show similar results. KE, momentum, and even feet per second. If you increase arrow FOC you need a stiffer spine. Just saying, when all things are equal, a stiffer heavier arrow with more FOC will absorb more of the energy, instead of more energy being imparted from the string to the rest of the bow. If your vanes are fluttering, this is a completely different issue. I have different types of vanes for different bow set-ups. If you vanes are fluttering due to higher velocity, you clearly need smaller and stiffer vanes. Dude, I'll check out your suggested channel, but I suggest looking at Levi Morgan's channel and Ranch Fairy, especially when he brings in a rocket scientist on his show. P.S. I think we all have shot an arrow with loose fletching, lol.

[@J0hnR4nd0m]

Another important factor no one seems to be considering in these tests is the sound of the arrow when it approaches the animal. Time is less of a factor (especially sub 1 sec. ) when the animal doesn’t hear the arrow coming. I would love to see tests like these done arrow sound in relation to the target, instead of speed. Heavier arrows with 4 vanes tend to be significantly more quite.

[@MrRazorback1975]

Great video, I love real data. The one thing I’d suggest is testing arrows in the weight ranges the Ranch Fairy (Troy) recommends. Citing the Ashby principles, bone breaking threshold is 650 grains, but 750 grains and up are recommended for animals like Cape Buffalo. For the record, I’m not a fan of these principles and how they apply to modern equipment. I tested many arrows when preparing for Cape Buffalo and settled at 578 grains, much lighter than recommended, I did speak to Troy on several occasions and he recommended 750 grains plus. My PH in Africa also said my setup was too light to be effective on Buffalo. Let’s see numbers for the heavyweights, Troy would think 566 is a noodle

[@jrd8640]

What I like to do is get a bow that’s advertised speed is fast so when I bump up arrow weight, it gets a lot more ke and momentum and the speed is still fast.

[@isLife-nn5yl]

This is a great video. I’m more curious now about the foc, broadhead weight/type recommended especially for the 300 and 400 grain arrows. Penetration tests have been done and lots of video evidence shows that those arrow weights do not equate to full pass through on whitetails. I do understand that it is not necessary to have a 900 grain arrow for whitetails, but I personally don’t trust light weight arrows with mechanical broadheads after wounding deer, due to lack of penetration, and shots were not hitting shoulder bones. I guess my point is I switched to a 580 grain arrow with a single bevel broadhead and haven’t needed to blood trail a deer in 3 years. I’ve shot 7 total during that time (none have jumped the string), the longest a deer ran from the spot it was shot was 54 yards. That doesn’t prove my way is the best. It has just worked for me since I have implemented it.

[@wk9953]

I agree. People forget you have to subtract the ke needed to open mechanical in these test.

[@yourmomma2995]

i shoot a 380gr arrow and honestly cant remember the last time i did not get a quick pass thru with my arrow (wasting ALOT of energy) buried deep in the dirt.

[@isLife-nn5yl]

@@yourmomma2995 So a 380 grain arrow and I’m assuming a 100 grain broadhead. That is still lighter, but I could see that working on only the most ideal shots, excluding any quartering-to or frontal shots on deer. What type of broadhead do you use?

[@yourmomma2995]

@@isLife-nn5yl i shoot 100gr fixed heads now (380gr total arrow weight),` but for many years i used rocket 100gr steelhead broadheads, always a pass thru with them too. I NEVER shoot at a deer that is quartering too or a frontal shot. i learned my lesson probably 30 years or so ago. i shot a big 9 pointer quartering to me (i was young and dumb) i got one lung and liver, it was an evening hunt. i got down at dark to track him and kicked him up, so i drove home and came back to get him at first daylight, i found him near where i kicked him up but unfortunately the coyotes found him during the night. they started eating him from the anus in, the meat was ruined but my crazy friend had a pet cougar, and she got that meat. im not concerned about getting a pass-thru on those crappy shots (with any weight or even a gun), i wont take them only because they are VERY low percentage shots, and i cant think of a worse feeling than wounding a deer for no reason other than my own stupidity. i will only take quartering to or broadside (extremely high percentage) shots now, which in my opinion are the only reasonable shots to take. if a deer doesn't offer me a proper shot i can live with that much easier than i can live with myself for wounding a deer.

[@isLife-nn5yl]

@@yourmomma2995 Ok, my experience with any mechanical broadhead is the exact opposite of yours. I have shot at plenty of broadside and quartering away deer with NAP and Rage heads that don’t kill deer. That includes a light shaft and flimsy spine. I actually don’t mind any angle of shot now with a stiff spine, high foc, heavier shaft/insert, and a good 150 grain broadhead (obviously fixed and single bevel). Again, we are only sharing our experiences in the woods. A light weight arrow may work for your hunting. I get impatient and want to shoot a deer when they come into range regardless of the angle of the deer. With a firearm, I see no reason to not take any shot offered. I say that because I live in Illinois so I only use a 12 gauge slug or muzzleloader. I have never had a deer not expire, except 1 for when I was a young boy. I have tagged out for many seasons now and can say that number is 37 deer. We are just sharing our experiences and the scientific proof may provide more clear evidence to what is normal.

[@coulterm27]

Overkill for me would be slinging buckshot at a dove. To each their own. When we say “heavier arrow” I believe the majority are understanding that higher FOC is essentially a heavier arrow by default, not just slinging a rod at a critter. 20 years ago, arrow speed wasn’t even an issue for the majority. We all want pass throughs. What set up is gonna give me the higher probability for that, when a less than broadside shot occurs, I wanna be confident in my set up, that I can sling an arrow and not have to “aim a little back” but put it right through the ringer. That’s what we all want as hunters I hope. Great video

[@craigarnold323]

The heavier arrow, is going to save your bacon when your shot hits bone. As the Fairy says plan B. Inside 20 yards heavy arrow all day. Shooting an elk at 40 plus, even though its a bigger animal I think trajectory and time to target becomes more of a factor in a successful kill shot.

[@timwozniak7574]

A heavy arrow hitting bone with slow speed/momentum is no good..There is a happy median for speed and weight for every set up.Heavier is not better. This is common knowledge until social media said you need a 600 gr arrow to hunt with..lol

[@camthecameraman5096]

Definitely depends on the game you’re chasing! No doubt

[@TheOKfisherman]

@@timwozniak7574 talk to the old guys before carbon when all the arrows were heavy and they were still delivering dirt naps on a regular

[@lilleyton12]

@@TheOKfisherman Because heavy was the only part of the momentum equation that made it work. Compounds that the "old guys" were shooting didn't come close to 300fps. Momentum is mass x velocity. There is a balance like everything else.

[@TheOKfisherman]

@@lilleyton12 like I mentioned in my other comment with my personal experience I had what some considere an adequate weight at 296fps and it was like shooting a nerf dart when it hit bone. I'm willing to give up a 10th of a second to impact for 200 more grains up front. If I continue to see problems I'll adjust from there. I just really feel people get to caught up on speed especially when traditional shooters shoot heavy arrows at a fraction of the speed and still get it to the deer fast enough. Now I know the range isn't the same and maybe I'm completely wrong about everything but time will tell

[@goelzprogram]

Good video and accurate for perfect broadside double lung/heart shots but I think most people are concerned with hitting shoulder. I'd love to see a slug rating and test for that use case. Broadheads matter in this case as well. Keep up the great work!

[@corh2367]

I enjoyed the video and info you presented. The one question I have is about that number of .305 needed for a pass through. Is it speaking specifically in pass throughs with clean shots made on broadside animals, or pass through no matter the angle or bone hit? I could definitely see that light arrow being plenty to get around a few ribs, but do question its ability to get through shoulder blade or the ball of the leg bone like on one of "the hunting public" videos.

[@nelsonchandler1015]

great job !! i use 424 grain arrows with great success speed does kill !!

[@bobbybrewster7435]

Speed doesn’t kill by itself only helps to get there faster sharp broadhead good shooting arrow and good tuned and good shooting bow in the hands of a good bow hunter kills deer period not opinions just plain facts

[@WingAndTailOutdoors]

For all you “I’ll give up milliseconds for weight” guys…I’d like to share an experience I had this season. At 10 yards…on an arrow traveling at 273 fps…I had a doe not just jump the string, she also turned. My arrow went right where I aimed but she completely beat the arrow. I used to believe milliseconds didn’t matter. Now…I’ll take all the speed I can get while still keeping my KE and momentum ratings high. I now shoot a 411 grain scientific arrow at 10% FOC…she moves at 294 fps at launch and my KE and Momentum ratings are all high enough to shoot the biggest game. It’s all about the happy medium. Best of luck!

[@DfI8587]

Great work Cam! Thanks

[@jeff_8789]

If 372grains is fine for whitetail how come 90%+ videos im watching with these light fast arrows the deer is running off with 3/4 the shaft hanging out so don't seem like .305 slugs is cutting it to me in a whitetail size animal

[@camthecameraman5096]

Most likely a broadhead issue rather than the arrow weight

[@jeff_8789]

@@camthecameraman5096 i used a hand sharpened tooth of the arrow 1" solid last yr with a 395gr shooting 76lbs 29 1/2" dw and 4 out of 9 deer didn't pass thru thats not a broadhead issue thats not enough ass in the arrow I never had this problem at 515gr so i already switched back light foc is a joke imo its pretty easy to build a 500gr arrow at 15% foc thats the best performance I've ever personally used so thats what im sticking with from hear on out

[@ryanmacke150]

372 grains is probably fine for a coyote lol

[@jeff_8789]

@@camthecameraman5096 just out of curiosity what would a mmt weigh out at and foc % be at 28" carbon 2 carbon with the heaviest insert u offer

[@camthecameraman5096]

@@jeff_8789 with a 100gr head on a 300 spine it’d be like 465 11-11.5% FOC I believe. Although, trust us we’re not anti heavy FOC and heavy arrow in the right situation. As the product offering expands we’ll have heavier insert options and stiffer spine options.

[@josephbucci3749]

Levi Morgan said it best. Stop worrying about speed FOC and momentum. Shoot a reasonable arrow around 430-450 gns and go hunt. Average Jack Archery calls these “bell curve” arrows. I tend to agree. Never had a problem at 430 gns.

[@Chadb11]

Also consider that a heavier arrow likely has a higher FOC. Assuming we are human and not a hooter shooter, a higher FOC arrow will correct for any imperfections in our shot faster than a lower FOC. This decreases both accuracy issues from a shot that may have some bow torque and decreases impact paradox upon reaching the animal which Leeds to more true penetration. An extra 100 grains on the front of an arrow has a huge impact on the speed with which the arrow corrects

[@jacobeasler433]

Great video I’m also a 27.5” draw pulling 65-66lb. Thanks my arrow is 422gr.

[@raymondderr4797]

Awesome stuff Cam!!!

[@lkeller779]

Great video. Thanks.

[@robinhood9241]

Good use of the scientific method, but I want to point out that the data here fails to account for the fact that everything changes at the moment of impact. Hide, muscle, connective tissue, bone...these all weigh in to how the energy of your arrow dissipates. This experiment takes only pre-impact data, so it provides an incomplete picture. It's not about the energy of the arrow at impact, though more efficient energy retention during flight is beneficial, it's about how efficiently your arrow retains energy when it meets hard resistance. This concept requires more than just calculations, but also things like broadhead design, sharpness, structural integrity, specific trajectory through the target which is never uniform, etc. Both fast arrows and heavy arrows can be poor killing tools if they can't retain that kinetic energy and momentum all the way through the animal. For example, a mechanical broadhead opens at impact, which requires taking some of that energy out of your arrow and putting it in the blades. Momentum and kinetic energy recommendations do not take these factors into account. That's where the ranch fairy philosophy comes from, accounting for the things you can't calculate.

[@josephtreadlightly5686]

Not to mention how important edge retention is. If it dulls on impact it will just push things out of the way instead of devastating it. A broadhead that can get an edge like that & hold it is worth it. It's like having 10 less pounds of pressure in your tires @ all times. Then u only notice it when u have a flat tire. The steel in some of these heads is much better than years ago but they need to be wicked sharp or it's not efficient. There r probably quite a few hunters out there that have never seen a 20 yard bloodtrail where the animal expires in seconds.

[@HisNameIsTater]

Plan for a perfect shot or plan for when things don't go exactly as you planned, I know which one I do.

[@N0_Murphy]

This is a good test to see what each arrow is capable of. I would like to know if those kinetic energy numbers include passing through the bone or just the hair/hide of each animal. Where the heavy arrow wins is the shots through bone, frontal shots and a hard quartering away shot. Sometimes you have to shoot with what you're given and you won't be able to pick and choose most of the time. Public land big game hunting is where your lighter arrow will have to have a perfect shot to harvest the animal. Perfect shots do not happen when you hunt. That is why I am starting to go to a heavier arrow set up.

[@markeppinger6275]

Heavier arrows takes alot of vibration out of your bow. Makes a huge difference in sound which is a huge deal to me. Also more tip wieght gives you a more forgiven arrow. You skip some other important assets to heavy arrows. I would much rather a more accurate and as quiet as possible set up. If all your getting out of light is speed to beat a string jump, which will never happen. What other assets come from speed

[@markeppinger6275]

One day everyone will run into penetration issues from concentrating so much on speed. I came from the era shortly before all this speed hype. So i see theres alot more advantage than just not worrying about penetration. When deer dont even know they were shot. Expire with in visibility way more often. If your gonna dissect weather ranch fairy is right or not. Youll need to do more, way more

[@LaurieM883]

I'd be interested in seeing this done with a youth or woman shooter who is at say 40 or 45 pounds draw weight and 23 to 25" draw length. This is where maximizing your momentum is important. Of course 60 yards is too far at those specs, max distance would be 30 to 40 yds. For anyone shooting more than 50 pounds and in the 27" draw length neighborhood or more, of course a lighter to medium weight arrow is sufficient for whitetail. A youth or woman at the specs I mentioned is only starting out with 220 fps or less. So you are a lot closer to the lower end of the kinetic energy scale, and the deer jumping the string is more of an issue.

[@d500mag2]

so how do women/youths even kill deer if velocity is key?

[@LaurieM883]

@@d500mag2 I didn't say velocity was the key. Momentum and kinetic energy is more important in that scenario. And as such, the animal needs to be closer. And so the conclusions in this video are not all encompassing for all hunters.

[@danielduroy3517]

Broad-heads make a big diff I’m 50/50 for recovery with mechanical going to a heavier arrow destroyed the mechanical so it’s a bunt or a home run. I’m trying 150 and 200gr fix blade this year total gr 552 and 638 @65lb if I do my part I should go from 50% to over 90% I don’t plan on shooting past 30 yd

[@tonyisbingaman9116]

I’m guessing that there is no heavy bone hits with those slug weights 🤔 but what if u hit the ball of the humerus bone don’t really think that will penetrate!!! Troy said for himself that these are plan B arrows so if plan A goes as “planned” you don’t need this but animals move constantly so I plan for B and hope for A.. 633 grain with 19.6% FOC

[@camthecameraman5096]

For me personally, basing my entire arrow setup for a bone the size of a golf ball when the vitals are the size of a pie plate doesn’t seem right. For me I’ll aim at the back of the lungs and watch him go down. And I won’t have to worry if I misjudge yardage by a yard or too because I’ll have the trajectory on my side

[@tonyisbingaman9116]

@@camthecameraman5096 so shoot them through the middle and pray is basically what you are saying.. So when you keep your shots reasonable not 60 or even 40 yards you don’t have to worry about a yard or TWO!!!

[@jason_mc77]

Ive said this very same thing elsewhere, but since i watched these videos back to back im going to leave the same comment as i did elsewhere... If time to target was a thing then no one in the 1980's or 90's (or earlier) shooting an aluminum arrow wouldve likely killed anything. For example an aluminum 2117 Easton Gamegetter (400 spine) at 27" with standard insert, nock and plastic vanes comes in around roughly 550gns. The same setup on a 2315 and 2317 (340 and 300 spine) are pushing well over 600gns, and these things were traveling maybe 145-150fps

[@omarcurbelo5342]

I just wrote a whole essay and deleted it. Lmao. It’s pointless to share so much opinion. Everyone will do what they believe. Thank you for sharing this video, it further cements my thoughts on the subject.

[@MyLibertyTV]

What the data doesn't account for is the deer's ability to hear the string and jump the arrow, the lighter arrow might mathematically be enough KE to kill, but it will also make the bow louder, and you won't kill what you don't hit.

[@Bigdancustomknives]

That “overkill” can help against bone or marginal shots. Yes shot placement is key but we’re hunting animals that you can’t always predict what’s going to happen at impact.

[@ppucks]

This is the best video I’ve seen on this topic. Thank you. Have you researched then the affect of inconsistent broadhead flight when exceeding certain fps? As in for some fixed broadheads is there an upper bound of FPS while maintaining momentum?

[@country_gbrony721]

It might depend too if the momentum numbers are for penetrating shoulder bones or are they talking rib shots? If you want the added insurance opt for the heavy arrow. Most deer are killed at an average of 18 yards.

[@johncannady6105]

Finally some common sense backed up with real data!! Thank you!

[@BowhuntingandFitnessTV]

Great study and numbers, but a graph, pivot chart, etc. instead of just numbers in a spreadsheet would have been great to accompany this data for visual effects.

[@Huskerboy100]

That slug fps chart is great and all… but have ya ever heard of a Rib bone? Or shoulder? Great to be able to blow threw one of those with a heavier arrow (475+)

[@jake-hofer]

Great work!

[@hackmanoutdoors1626]

So what happens when the deer moves and you went with speed instead of keeping the extra kE to keep driving the arrow and hit bone and arrow doesn't pass through 🤔.

[@dlydly1686]

Well the other side of the coin here is what happens if your slightly slower arrow allows them to duck a couple inches more n its th difference between no man's land n a high lung hit🤷‍♂️

[@hackmanoutdoors1626]

@@dlydly1686 well I guess that's why some shoot lower 1/3 and right about elbow. I've never had one duck low enough to hit that high since I realized I didn't have to stay off shoulder as far as I was taught. And with solid COC heads and high foc I'm not worried about bone. If deer are ducking and you are hitting no man's land or missing you should probably stop taking those shots lol. All I know is since I've made the switch from light and fast I haven't lost a deer yet 🤷🏼‍♂️. To each their own tho shoot what's best for you.

[@novarocker247]

The numbers are based on normal pass through. The theory they live on is even 10 yrds away, if a deer is on edge it can drop or move significantly. So they say you shoot for Plan B. That idea being you want the momentum to blow through a scapula, rib, humerus, etc. so heavy is better. Also putting that weight up front has even better momentum because there is less resistant movement. They also have shown studying videos that the animal has a “vote”. Whether 10 yrds away or 60 yrds away. They can move in certain instance. The further shot they often don’t spook as easily and you’re more likely they will be still. But you don’t wanna bank on that. You want that arrow to hit them and if they do turn not to just wound them cause you hit a rib. They found 650grains at minimum for effective penetration through bone at an average draw weight. That deer at 60 yrds is still going to move but even if it hits earlier, you are more likely to just wound them. Also a heavier arrow also is usually a stiffer arrow (if you tune them correctly) and loses less energy to movement. Putting the weight up front make sure the back of the arrow corrects quickly and has less drag moving back and fourth through the wind and when it impacts it has less movement bouncing back and fourth causing resistance. They have a lot of real world data to show this. This is coming from a guy that shot light and fast with 100grain mechanicals cause I thought fast was best. I was wrong even noticed it myself when deer within 20 yrds wouldn’t barely penetrate.

[@josephr1198]

This could have been done with 3 shots, you can set up the lab radar ro read at all those yards and shoot once and record the speed at all those yards.

[@topJimmyP1984]

Very cool info. Thx

[@TheMrSupermoto]

I think you’re on the right track but there’s still other variables to consider such as broadhead size, shaft diameter, shot selection, etc. Also draw length, poundage and bow speeds are going to play a different role for each individual. I personally dropped my arrow weight from 550 to 500 this year because twice in the last two years I had deer duck more than I’d like at reasonable ranges. A heavy arrow is great for getting through the tougher parts of a deer but it counts for nothing if the deer has too much time to move. It would be cool to see a video comparing impact points at different velocities on deer that jumped the string using your numbers.

[@turtleman5111]

Death By Bungie had an engineer do the exact same test you are talking about. I can find the title if you want. He even came up w/a formula. FPS/10= the yardage that a deer will drop about 4", after hearing the shot. You should be safe at that distance.

[@davidholliday3286]

Lower point of aim.

[@chrisruzsa2798]

How far are you shooting?

[@d500mag2]

ducking/jumping string i'm sure there are a bunch of educated deer that know what a bow sounds like and react to it. if all deer actually jumped/ducked the sound from the bow, bowhunters would measure their shots in feet, not yards. 1,086 fps or 362 yards per second. anyone know what that is?

[@timl8302]

The speed of sound at sea level is 1,125 ft/sec. A bow is 350 +/-fps IBO at launch.

[@clarkansas6590]

Good job

[@hornbakeracres9650]

My question would be what are they basing the recommended KE for given target animal off of? Meaning, I am guessing they are basing that on perfect broadside shot and perfect shot placement. Though that is always the goal, that isn't always the situation. Animals move, wind shifts, fatigue causes small errors. That's the advantage of the heavier arrow. The more likelihood of still getting full penetration even on a less than ideal shot placement and animal position. It gives more room for realistic variables that happen in real hunting situations versus static testing. I do really appreciate your input and taking the time to break down the math on it. This is just my two cents on the situation though.

[@davidholliday3286]

Love what you're doing here. We need more of this. However, hitting bone is an absolute game changer. Speed cannot make up for the fact that animals move. You cannot beat them all the time. That said, we need enough momentum to breach the bones. I do not want something with teeth and claws coming after me when my arrow goes bonk from a bone hit. For me, I want overkill, especially when my life or health could be on the line. Remember, trad guys have been killing animals for millennium with much slower bows and they did not eat when they missed. So, while I may agree with your conclusion in principle, on meat things can change and overkill is what I prefer. With respect, thank you.

[@shanestout3543]

Also wouldn't a heavier Arrow decrease the amount of vibration in your bow translating also into a quieter shooting bow which would also possibly translate into less chance of reaction by the animal you were shooting

[@bipolarbear69]

With a traditional bow yes, I don't think it matters with compounds they have alot of accessories that quiet them down.

[@shanestout3543]

@@bipolarbear69 it would be relatively easy to test this Theory set up one Arrow around 400 grains and put a decibel meter at 20 yards away from your position and then shoot a 500 grain Arrow also at 20 yards away from the decibel meter and then shoot a 600 grain Arrow also 20 yards away from a decimal meter... then you will see how much difference the heavier Arrow makes as far as noise reduction and obviously you have to use the same bow for each Arrow

[@bipolarbear69]

I've seen people shoot 435 grain arrows out of 70# compound and have their arrows completely bounce off whitetail, so I'm good.

[@SpearsUnclaimed]

The elephant in the room is the chart you used as your gauge your lethality. What is you hit heavy bone?

[@ngiovanni13]

broadhead sharpness and edge retention are the most important element. there is a balance that needs to be had. Ashby foundation needs to amend their ways

[@davidholliday3286]

Kill as many animals as he has and then let's talk.