Do New Evolutions Actually Help the Pokémon that Need it Most?

Can we please stop "fixing" Johto Pokémon? I get that a lot of them have been left behind over the years but at this point I'm just starting to wonder why they even bothered creating a whole Generation if later they just say it's not good enough... I don't hate all new evolutions or form changes of Pokémon, in fact I like a good majority of them, but I can't help but think if they're really succeed in the job for which they were supposedly created...

[@garchompelago]

In my headcanon, Ursaluna went extinct due to how tedious it is to evolve.

[@GoinGreninja]

And also because finding the peat rocks are a real pain in the behind. Hopefully with modern technology, it'll be less painful.

[@emperorcubone]

Haha, so true! It's actually still possible today, it's just nobody cares enough to try!

[@AdamDawson3]

They could just change Ursaring to evolve into Ursaluna using a Moon Stone problem solved

[@PeiceofNick]

Same probably gose for Klevor as well I bet.

[@Compucles]

@@AdamDawson3 But then you'd have players complaining that a Moon Stone doesn't evolve it in every generation all the way back to Gen 2. When they change evolution methods, they almost always keep the retcon logical with past generations.

[@hibikuokudan]

Many people have wanted evolutions for Dunsparce and Girafarig for years, so giving us what we want is exciting!

[@emperorcubone]

Sure, but you can't honestly tell me Dudunsparce is what you wanted...

[@camillalapolentona8420]

@@emperorcubone a joke evolution for a joke pokemon. What's wrong with that?

[@chrisjohnsen8448]

It's not what I wanted, but honestly I prefer it this way. It's so absolutely on brand for Dunsparce and makes perfect sense all things considered.

[@warriorxp7]

@@chrisjohnsen8448 aside from the lack of my desired ground type dunsparce it is everything i wanted.

[@eddierichard1104]

@@emperorcubone yes it is. I already loved Dunsparce, and I REALLY love Dudunsparce. If it wasn’t for Espathra, Dudunsparce would be my favorite Paldea pokemon overall.

[@EnbyFish]

I think that Primeape was an incredible surprise. Love what they did this generation with new evolutions

[@kittensolder8818]

NOBODY talked about Primeape (or Bisharp) when discussing old mons that needed to evolve.

[@XenithShadow]

@@kittensolder8818 Well primape only technically evolves, functionally you cause primape to become so angry he dies and you left with his rage filled ghost in its place.

[@leftygurl]

i think the new forms and evos are more about returning to designs and concepts with creative potential than anything else. girafarig and stantler were single-stage pokemon from over twenty years ago, i think they just liked the designs and wanted to do something more with them.

[@emperorcubone]

Perhaps; I do think that's the case for some of them, like I believe that's basically 100% of the reason they made Bonsly, but then others like Lickilicky, or even the new Dudunsparce seem shockingly lacking for effort in creativity...

[@eclipse9727]

@@emperorcubone There's a lot of complexity behind a lot of designs; some more than others, but still. And... just because they lack creativity doesn't mean they're bad. Not everything has to wow us with gimmicks; for some, it has to just make sense.

[@varuhash50]

@@eclipse9727 Yeah. They didnt have to make Dudunsparce or Lickilicky, but since they did theres another Pokemon to remember even if it was just a joke. And they certainly didnt have to give Dudunsparce the most malleable stat distribution since Arceus and/or Silvally and a signature 100 base power move that bypasses and destroys Protect. They didnt have to. But they did and it makes Dudunsparce even more fun to think about lol

[@ralpbeez8414]

@@emperorcubone Lickilicky can be explained - as the beta leaks showed, it is quite likely Lickitung was meant to get a baby form, but it was changed later to an evolution. (You can still see this previous design leftover on Lickilicky's strange "bib" that it has) Dunsparce is...an odd one. While I agree it should be cooler, it's inspiration is a tsuchinoko snake yokai. It's both Japan's bigfoot, but also sort of a "joke/meme" of a yokai compared to all the others with how silly it looks, so that might be why they gave it an equally silly evolution in SV. So hopefully that does provide some frame of reference for why they chose to do it like that.

[@topdog23100]

I think new evolutions are a cool idea. They turn forgettable Pokémon into something much more awesome. Sirfetch’d made me appreciate Farfetch’d a lot more. I think my only problem with new evolutions is that most Pokémon with new evolutions have ridiculous evolution methods, like Bisharp into Kingambit for example

[@emperorcubone]

Yeah, that one's going to be hard to keep consistent in the future... Don't forget Galarian Yamask though!

[@lyteabhishek]

Disagree, a already don't care about a lot of them. It only works on some.

[@Jeikobu]

While I mostly agree, these evolution methods are out there, but also for Sirfetched and Obstagoon, did we need a regional variant of the original? I think they could have been added on as normal evolutions instead of being locked to transfers from SwSh.

[@munchrai6396]

While the design is pretty cool, I do wish they went a bit farther on what Farfetch'd had going for it originally. Having it evolve through critical hits is very cool, but not getting an ability or even a signature move to coincide with it feels very half baked. Doesn't help that if Sr. Fetch'd was a standard evolution, it would've been Fighting/Flying, which is far more interesting than another physical fighting type

[@Ryodraco]

The thing is the old pokemon just becoming a "stepping stone" to the evolution argument can be applied to most pokemon that evolve in general. People mostly care about the final form when it comes to battling, and I don't see that as a bad thing. I mean is there any reason to "help" Gabite get seen as more than a stage on the path to becoming a Garchomp? Gabite is still needed to get to the final stage, and that makes it more worthwhile than it would be on its own.

[@GoinGreninja]

Exactly. Base stage and middle stage, while not as popular, is still very important so that we can the Pokémon we want truly. And early game, you begin to appreciate them a lot too.

[@turkoositerapsidi]

Tho if I remember correctly, gothorita with eviolite is more defensive than gothitelle, also slower considering trick room, but gothitelle can have a different item and higher sp. attack. Gabite however is not defensive enough compared to garchomp if I remember right. I would wish steene wasn't so trash stats, if it would have same BST than gothorita put the extra 100 to both defenses and hp, it would be more defensive than tsareena when holding eviolite, but tsareena of course has much higher attack, steenee would have a different role then compared to its evolution, like porygon2 and porygon-z. Steenee's Pokédex info even mentions it's leaves defending it, so higher Def would make sense, it's design is great so I am sad it is so useless.

[@Watch-0w1]

It be good idea to make evolite for offense than defense with restriction. Like taking always ability or type to normal

[@emperorcubone]

You're not wrong, but it is a bit different to take a Pokemon that was designed from the start to lead to something more in a popular line, like the Gabite you mentioned, vs. downgrading an existing Pokemon to that status when they used to be good enough on their own, and maybe even without it actually paying off...

[@goGothitaLOL]

@@turkoositerapsidi also doesn't help that Steenee's stats are so bad even by mid-evo standards (excluding cross-gen relatives and pseudos) EX; Nidorina/Nidorino's BST is 365, Flaaffy's BST is also 365, Vibrava's is 340, Luxio's is 363, Krokorok's is 351, Morgrem's is 370, even bugs like Whirlipede, Charjabug and Dottler have higher BST (360, 400, and 335 repsectively). All whiling Steenee's is 290, tho Kirlia's 278 is worse

[@GoinGreninja]

Yes. By giving them options with Eviolite, with giving them more attention etc. Not having them would doom them to live in languish. Imagine for example Deliberd not getting Iron Bundle. No one would appreciate it or respect it in any feasible way.

[@doru3428]

wait but iron bundle isn't an evolution. sorry if i missunderstood what you were saying

[@GoinGreninja]

@@doru3428 It's not, it's a different Pokémon. But it did give Deliberd spotlight in its own way. If one wants a traditional example, then let's go with Farigiraf which is pretty useful in the lower tiers and made Girafarig into a monster inside Little Cup.

[@legodex1]

​@doru You didn't misunderstand, Iron Bundle doesn't actually help Deliberd and by itself is still pretty useless.

[@GoinGreninja]

@@legodex1 Deliberd was meant to be a Gimmick Pokémon whose only level up move is Present, a variable damage move. So it being useless, while not ideal, makes sense as to why it is so. That's why to keep Deliberd as a Gimmick Pokémon while also giving it spotlight, making a different Pokémon that looks similar is the best path forward.

[@superzenmodeman]

@@GoinGreninja Well, it is possible to retain Delibird’s gimmick while making it a somewhat functional pokemon - still not particularly strong but with partially meaningful uses. Its stats could be higher while still being mediocre. And it could possibly have a signature ability that fits its theme. It’s just that giving Delibird a rehaul would be quite unblanced unless they did a full on rehaul for many mons, which isn’t happening. I’d say it was a product of early gens not having things figured out to the same extent. If Delibird came out nowadays, it would probably be a much better pokemon than what we got in gen 2, albeit still a gimmick.

[@ishierrogamer7798]

Bisharp having an evolution took me as a Surprise since It already was a great Pokémon both in design and competitive games.

[@emperorcubone]

My thoughts exactly, and I thought the same for Primeape...

[@WiiMote070]

@emperorcubone Tbh opinions on Primeape are a lot more mixed. I'm also a fan of it but I've heard way less people care about it than Bisharp. Not to mention that, unlike Bisharp, Primeape was always overshadowed. Take Gen 1: it's strong, but Machamp is stronger. It's fast but not that much more than the also stronger Hitmonleee. Both of which got actual fighting type moves. Then from Gen 2 onwards the fighting type pokemon kept getting better and better. Heracross, Breloom, Lucario etc. This ended up being way to long for a guys whose only been into Pokemon for 2 years but long story short, I could defend the Primeape getting an evo. Bisharp on the other hand, the only problem with it is the fact the fact that it's evolved 7 levels after Metagross wtf.

[@ShadowFox10587O]

I like Cherubi I feel like it's one of those pokemon that if they were real no one would really use but alot of people would keep as a pet or something

[@miscellaneoof]

People would eat cherubi

[@emperorcubone]

It would be farmed for use in cooking...

[@yoissy]

Noooooooo

[@ShadowFox10587O]

@@emperorcubone probably but if the real world is any indication we would probably try to eat most pokemon

[@cmoney8979]

I like cherubi as well. Cherries have always been my favorite fruit and you have no idea how happy I was to see a cherry pokemon

[@justicemarie7403]

I used Girafarig in Diamond and Pearl and honestly loved it. When it's Evo got announced I loved it even more. I nicknamed it Jiffy

[@taputrainer8463]

I used Girafarig in Sapphire and it’s really good against Pheobe

[@mistaken_stranger8343]

Personally I don't mind new evolutions being added to already existing lines. One thing I'd like to see is more split evolution lines being added would be interesting. For example Poliwrath Vs Politoed. My only concern is how will regional forms, regional evolutions and paradox forms all survive in the future. For example will we be able to find wild alolan vulpix in the wild in a few generations time or will it have to be transferred for gen 7 games?

[@nickdentoom1173]

Probably be transfer only though, else the term Alolan Vulpix doesn't make sense anymore.

[@GoinGreninja]

More split evolutions would be awesome! Especially with Porygon. Still wondering when we'll get Porygon3... And regarding the last point, it's possible that some regions will house some Regional Pokémon while some won't. For example, a cold region could keep Alolan Ninetales but not Alolan Raichu or something like that.

[@mistaken_stranger8343]

@@nickdentoom1173 yeah I can't see them doing in game trades for all the regionals. Maybe like a Safari zone post game area to find these forms could be an idea ?

[@mistaken_stranger8343]

@@GoinGreninja yeah I could see a place like the Safari zone being brought in post game for catching these past regionals.

[@cannabishornliu6119]

@@nickdentoom1173 But it would sense if the areas match the Pokémon's origin story. For example Alolan Vulpix are in other regions too but only in icy areas to match the environment of alola.

[@michaelnelson1127]

Well, the paradox Donphans put the original back in the spotlight (at least for me), which led me to notice that its movepool got quite the buff this generation. Granted, most of it is through TMs, but it’s still able to get a diverse set. And thanks to Phanpy being an earlier encounter (potentially before the first badge), more people will have access to it.

[@MadnessOpus]

It always had bonkers of a movepool. Shame it wasn't available in most of the games so far.

[@emperorcubone]

I did catch a a Phanpy before the first gym; it was so strong it wouldn't even listen to me! But of course I've loved Donphan since it was first shown in the Pokemon movie, so I guess to me it didn't need help...

[@michaelnelson1127]

@@MadnessOpus Not always. Its movepool in Gens 2 and 3 were pretty shallow, and those were the games where you could get early access to it (specifically Crystal and XD). But now that it has the good moveset AND early access, it can finally shine! In fact, I’ll be using it in my next playthrough (whenever that may be).

[@taylorjames14]

@@michaelnelson1127 most pokemon had terrible move pools in gen 2 and 3 to be fair

[@varuhash50]

@@emperorcubone Donphan needed all the help it could get. Its been getting outclassed by many Pokemon in Competitive since the start as a Ground type by Steelix, Hippowdon and eventually Landorus-T, but with Great Tusk AND Iron Treads existing it was brought back to the limelight and got a lot of discussions started about Paradox Pokemon in the first place. Yeah Treads isnt used often but Great Tusk is currently one of the most used Pokemon because it so easily deals with Gholdengo, which many thought was a problem until Great Tusk showed that it could just one-shot it. Donphan, while not getting any direct buffs, it got indirect ones via its Paradoxes

[@melindamuller4466]

I think Johto has some quite cutesy, yet sometimes bare or boring designs, others seem to be just a gimmick, and a lot of them struggle competitively, so the attention of an evolution is nice; the only one I find a head scratcher is Ursaring to Ursaluna, Ursaring did feel like a fully realized Pokémon already.

[@ZacSonicMee]

Part of the problem is, while I love gen 2 and many of its designs, many of the designs could be seen as relatively boring or feel like they were supposed to lead into something bigger in the first place, the prime example being Stantler. It's mainly just a deer. The reason why many casuals didn't bother using it is because it was boring. Infact, this was done back in gen 4 with mismagius and honchcrow and farigiraf in gen 8 for the latter reason, the original pokemon themselves had interesting designs, but they felt like they should have evolved, and were rarely used because of not being interesting enough. For pokemon like Stantler, misdreavus, murkrow and girafarig, an evolution is quite honestly the right route for them, in order to give them a second chance at either actually being interesting or fulfilling the potential of their design and making people at least care about part of the line because of that. Now, are there times where this is unnecessary or has falled flat on its face? Yes. Ursaluna, while I like it, was most definitely unnecessary (albeit has brought tons more attention to ursaring thanks to the eviolite), and dudunsparce is an absolute letdown imo. The point is, if people don't like the design, unless the pokemon itself is buffed by insane margins, they just won't use it. As example, not many people outside of the competetive scene are going to use Dedenne even though it got a +50 in its attack stat and +20 in its speed, learned volt tackle and gained Adaptability as an ability (As a side note, no, Dedenne didn't get any of these buffs with SV, this is just as an example), because they probably wouldn't care enough to try and find out if it got buffed this generation to begin with. While thanks to Legends many more people in the casual audience are trying to fill their dex in SV, if it's a pokemon like Dedenne they're probably just going to box it and let it collect dust for a long time unless they caught it early on. That's why imo adding evolutions or regional variants is a very good way to go assuming people just don't care for the pokemon itself. It'll at very least spark interest in the line even if the original mon still isn't used much compared to its evolution. Though, for pokemon that are liked and simply just need a buff, they deserve a buff and don't need much more.

[@Dusxio]

Evolutions I feel works. It still makes people use the old form for a while, or with an evoilite for competitive. A lot of the old pokemon just don't stand up well with power creep. New forms still makes the old form forgotten if it has a better typing since the stats don't increase.

[@emperorcubone]

Yeah the stats staying the same level on regional forms has always been weird to me; like, if you can just randomly do it when we transfer a Pokemon up from last gen, it'd be okay to give 15-20 across something...

[@talonitex6441]

I like your examples like for instance gallade got sharpness which boosted its potential and actually made me use it over gardevoir for once

[@ShadowSword88ee]

Hisuian Samorutt and Kleavor are also going to be quite strong with the sharpened ability.

[@kappaprimus]

Of course, balancing is important but game freak isn't making them with the intent of "fixing" anything. At best that's a co-product. They'd only make what sells well

[@DilanQuill]

I feel you should have explained that VGC is doubles because it causes a completely different environment for some pokemon. I'm pretty sure you'll never see Murkrow in competitive singles.

[@GoinGreninja]

Yeah, you won't really see it much there. Other Support Pokémon are there to pick up the slack.

[@WiiMote070]

And even then Murkrow has already fallen of hard as people started carrying hard counters to it. Heck the only reason Murkrow rose in prominence in the first place is the fact that the faster, bulkier Whimsicott isn't in the game...

[@DilanQuill]

@@WiiMote070 I never paid attention to competitive pokemon, but really wanted to with Scarlet and Violet. Open teams made that a hard no me.

[@WiiMote070]

@@DilanQuill how come?

[@DilanQuill]

@@WiiMote070 It's WAY too much information to be giving away.

[@rockowlgamer631]

Good abilities, a useful movepool, and a moderate BST distribution will help most pokemon, unfortunately a lot of pokemon usually only have one of these. Now if only Mawile and Sableye would get attention

[@MightyAverage]

They did… And then Pokemon got rid of them

[@zygoat2369]

Mega Mawile's design almost looks like it could be a new evolution rather than a mega

[@rockowlgamer631]

@@zygoat2369 Yeah they honestly could've just rebranded it, tweaked it so it wasn't OP and bam new evolution

[@rockowlgamer631]

@@MightyAverage cause that was a gimmick some people just can't seem to let go of, now they can get proper evolution in a time line that doesn't include mega evolution

[@notscorchingsands9718]

@@rockowlgamer631 They had their time

[@browncow5210]

Gonna' say I used Jumpluff in my playthrough, and it's not bad at all. It's not a tank or sweeper, but it's freaking fast with tons of support utility at its disposal and some handy resistances to work with. Going first with sleep powder and leech seed to win without them hitting you back is a classic.

[@emperorcubone]

Oh I'm not saying Jumpluff is awful; I also used one and was great to Leech Seed and then just U-Turn out of there, but it needs a ton of help in the publicity department when it's overshadowed by other support Pokemon...

[@cannabishornliu6119]

One thing that would clearly help Unova Pokémon is too drastically decrease the level evolutions. Unova has one of the coolest Pokémon ever (overshadowed by some of it stinkers) but man these level evolutions are a killer. Hydreigon, Bisharp, Braviary, Volcarona are smazing but everyone evolves at Pseudo Legendary Level while having a basestat of not even 500 (looking at you Bisharp). And I don't want to use first stage Pokémon only to evolve them only in the post game. Pokémon like Bisharp could evolve 15 to 20 earlier in my opinion and Kingambit could get Bisharp's former evolution level.

[@AuraStrikeAce]

Add Mienshao to that list too. Another amazing Pokémon that evolves way too late.

[@cannabishornliu6119]

@@AuraStrikeAce Yeah... It also very stupid for ingame trainers. Ghetsis is known for his underleveled Hydreigon but Lysandre too... He uses a completely out of place for this part of the game Mienfoo in his first two fights only to use an underleveled Mienshao in his final battle anyway. It's just silly and easily avoidable if Game Freak would change or improve evolution methods more often just like the change that specific item evolutions don't need to be part trade evolutions anymore. Way better in my opinion.

[@bigdaddydelphox6022]

One I never see mentioned is Scraggy. You find it pretty early, and its evolution isn't that strong, yet it evolves at Level 39 for no reason

[@cannabishornliu6119]

@@bigdaddydelphox6022 Scraggy & Scrafty for me are mistyped Pokémon and should be Fighting-Dragon type and they should get a third stage evolution that increases the dragon appearance. I saw a good fanart of a mega Scrafty/Scrafty evolution that looks like a dragon gecko.

[@emperorcubone]

To be fair Hydreigon IS actually a pseudo-legendary, but yeah! I never even considered that they could just tweak the numbers and make the Pokemon evolve reasonably... That's why I never picked up a Rufflet in Alola, because it would take until Poni Island to evolve! They changed the way you get the newer Eeveelutions so why not do the same for Unova Pokemon?

[@gelnart25]

We need more Dawn stone evolutions!!..like split evos.

[@luisadolfothewolf7042]

Well, Teddiursa can be obtained really early on Crystal, making it an excelent choice for a team member, but seems no one knows it (I'm yet to even try getting one on Crystal someday)

[@CaptainObliviousV]

Same goes for Phanpy. It can be caught as soon as you obtain Pokéballs. Crystal did a lot to make Johto mons more accessible and it makes me sad that HGSS didn’t carry that over.

[@emperorcubone]

Yeah, that's great, but Crsytal is literally the worst selling mainline Pokemon game of all-time, meaning nobody played it. So I was more talking like putting one prominently in Alola on Melemele Island or something...

[@TheNadroj10]

Still sold like 8 million right? To claim nobody played it is a slight exaggeration. Any other franchise would kill for those sales

[@luisadolfothewolf7042]

@@TheNadroj10 the Star Fox series be like Metroid as well, but at least that's alive

[@ehong2925]

On a side note, Girafarig is absolutely dominating Little cup thanks to no longer being fully evolved

[@suly5836]

I love how they saw bisharp, one of the most used pokemon and most popular ones from unova, and said "yeah, let's give it an evolution", and proceeded to create a complete menace.

[@ohzenn]

"don't fulfill the role that they were meant to" - you lost me there. You have no idea what they were meant to do. Could have been filler Pokemon to meet a quota, could have been to well toys, could have been to tie into the anime, could have been to refresh beloved classics. People like Pokemon for a lot of different reasons, not just battle viability, so honestly new evos and gimmicks like regional types were always going to happen at some point.

[@GoinGreninja]

Exactly. Even as someone who sees things mostly battle wise, even I can see that there're many reasons to a Pokémon's existence. For filler, Basculin was for Unova until PLA gave it some love. For toys the Pikaclones exist and for anime or such tie-ins, Lugia was created for Pokémon the Movie 2000 etc etc.

[@BestgirlJordanfish]

I think they’re fun fan service, make a Dex feel fresher with that perspective, and can give a real chance of a cool new strong mon. Plus with Eviolite being such a fascinating item, I think there is a RAD design space with potential here. Such as: • An Ability that automatically does a “Helping Hand” effect on unevolved Ally Pokémon, or maybe Tailwind or Safeguard • An item that gives +30% to Attack and S.Attack and +50% to Speed • An item that gives an omni boost and sash if they have two evolutions remaining. A lot of potential in that design space

[@halcritic648]

With Delibird i guess that they didn't want to mess with his gimmick. This way they can just create a new pokemon.

[@aspiringwayfarer]

great video and a very important question that doesn't have an easy answer, although I think you covered a lot of avenues for choices here. I think it's important that we continue to have this conversation as our ever expanding list of pokemon marches on, but you mentioned most everything I hoped you would - power creep, evolite, regional forms, megas, stat buffs, type changes, and just regular evolutions.

[@Dusxio]

Stat boosts and tweaks, and better abilities do help a lot. I really enjoyed butterfree in SwSh thanks to the improved stats and movepool.

[@ShadowSword88ee]

Also, G-Max butterfree was quite useful.

[@TheFirstTriplefife]

I know we now have a more superior iron bundle, but when I looked at deli bird it can now use a plethora of moves. This is still something to me who have only for the longest time seen it with present and then drill peck. On its own it only learns 4, but with TMs it can learn a great deal more.

[@emperorcubone]

Yeah, Delibird could actually use TMs for a while, but it was always just kind of a waste until they were unbreakable, or like now when you can make as many as you want, it doesn't matter if you use Ice Beam and Fly on this Santa bird...

[@TheFirstTriplefife]

@@emperorcubone there good overall changes for sure.

[@chrisjohnsen8448]

It's definitely a combination of a case by case basis, marketing, and in rare cases quirky limitations. In the first case, Gliscor, Annihilape, and Weavile well all amazing additions that elevated their previous stages simply by making you use them to get to it, but then ones like Rhyperior, Magmortar, and Dudunsparce don't necessarily buff/change enough for people to get invested in them. In the second case, new evolutions or new forms of underwhelming or forgotten Pokemon can be great for marketing and get people talking about the game, but simultaneously one can easily imagine that more mileage could be gained in that field by giving that treatment to the ones that don't necessarily need it, like how Bisharp didn't necessarily need an evolution or how Charizard and Mewtwo had 2 Megas each. And the last case simply refers to the hesitation for the period of XY to SwSh where GF was much more hesitant to add new permanent evolutions to Pokemon, which could happen again. But if not for that, would regional forms be a thing?

[@futureDreamer4]

Johto had so many weak Pokemon. Johto mons need a buff especially Ledian because I love the design.

[@GoinGreninja]

Agreed. I'd so love to see an evolution to Ledian, with proper stat distribution too.

[@charcoaleater343]

Maybe a hero counterpart to orbeetle, who is a mad scientist?

[@emperorcubone]

This is my point though; Ledian is clearly in some of the most dire need of assistance, yet they went for Girafarig and Quagsire instead? Are they just drawing the names out of a hat?

[@GoinGreninja]

@@emperorcubone No, no. They're just waiting until it's the right time. If you're lucky, you may see it next gen. Can people not learn to wait anymore?

[@futureDreamer4]

@@emperorcubone hopefully in the next Johto game we get a bug/fairy Ledian Evo with broken stats,moves, and a dope design. Ledian deserves the love.

[@matigamer329]

I think evolutions, regional variants and paradoxes to old pokémon are meant to upgrade the pokémon they are based on. Check Great Tusk and Iron Bundle, paradox pokémon of gen 2 pokémon that are now popular. Check Dunsparce and Girafarig, 2 pokémon people wanted to have evolutions, and now they can benefict the eviolite. Sure Dudunsparse is just a longer Dunsparce but this is because Dunsparce is meant to be a joke pokémon, as well as Dudunsparce. Buy hey it's just my opinion. And yeah I think it's silly to not give pokémon like Sunflora, Jumpluff or Ledian more love.

[@joltx9909]

I actually trained both stantler and girafarig in heartgold and they did suprisingly well XD I mean, their stats are mediocre but for in game playthrough they really came through

[@emperorcubone]

See? This is what I'm saying; these people are out here claiming how awful and forgotten those specific Pokemon are, yet they've never touched either one! How are you going to remember something you never experienced? I had the same thing happen to me when I tried them both!

[@princesscoco6434]

Thankyou, I've had such a bad day and this helped

[@bf4351]

For Annihilape, yes. The Mankey evolution line rose to the top.

[@Tvdiet]

I have a lot more respect for Azumarill since I used it in ORAS I was originally going for A Sharpedo but Azumarill was so great I just kept it I’m currently playing Emerald and even without it’s fairy typing it’s a bloody beast

[@kylehammack2025]

Nice video Caleb. I agree. There seems to be no clear criteria for which Pokémon get which “upgrade”. I like regional variants but then the original Pokémon just ends up overshadowed. I think going with more small buffs is a better approach

[@cannabishornliu6119]

I want more Baby Pokémon for way to strong single stage Pokémon like Dondonzo, Hawlucha, Flamigo. It makes them more accessible and they could spawn in the early game without being way too strong at the time like the trade Hawlucha before the first Trail in Alola. A base 500 Pokémon in the early game feels wrong.

[@olivernguyen50]

And baby pokemons to evolve to cramorant maractus sigyliph kangaskhan bouffalount alolomola as well plus a baby pokemon that evolves to ether throh or sawk whether its attack or defense are high

[@emperorcubone]

Yeah, I was thinking this too; like catching a Munchlax early would be pretty cool, but if you train it right you could get a Snorlax way before you'd normally be able to, and it's not unfair because the other people could've put in that effort too...

[@cannabishornliu6119]

@@olivernguyen50 Yeah! :-D Baby-Pokémon can be a very good addition to an older Pokémon if done right! For example connecting former single stage Pokémon like Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan with Tyrogue. We could use the same for... Tauros and Miltank Lunatone, Solrock and maybe even Minior Troh and Sawk Or we could use them to Nerf strong Pokémon in a healthy way but to count all Pokémon who deserve a pre evolution would crash this comment.

[@djkates1916]

Your mention of Eviolite got me thinking -- I'd like to see another item that would be like another version of Eviolite, but not for defenses. I'm not sure what exactly I'd want the effect to be, but the point would be that it would be another item that only works if it's being held by a Pokémon that isn't fully evolved. Depending on what the item did, this could help a bunch of NFE Pokémon that don't benefit enough from Eviolite, whether because their defenses aren't good enough even with Eviolite or because their move pools/abilities don't give them a good enough way to capitalize on the higher defenses. Incidentally, such an item, if useful enough in its own right, would also indirectly buff Eviolite because players seeing an NFE Pokémon would now have to consider which NFE-specific item it might be holding, as opposed to generally being able to safely assume it's Eviolite.

[@GoinGreninja]

What if we get an item that works like Eviolite but for attacks instead of defenses?

[@kr555wizard]

I don't think it would be balanced since if i remember right some earlier pokemon that needed trading like kadabra and haunter had pretty good offensive stats, with them being over 100 while having good speed, if they worked how the eviolite did then they'd basically make their evolutions have no real point aside from a speed boost. There maybe other pokemon who fall into this category.

[@EnriqueLaberintico]

​@@kr555wizard make it a 25 or 30% boost instead of 50%.

[@EKASM8000]

0:57 every single evolvable pokémon is exaclty that, a stepping stone for the last stage of the evolutionary line.

[@emperorcubone]

In theory, but it's far more insulting to be demoted to that status after having been the pinnacle of your line before, only for that new one to flounder and leave you both forgotten...

[@briansherrod1916]

Primeape has such an amazing evolution. Such a fan!

[@AtomBacon]

I never used Girafarig until gen 9, but I was pleasantly surprised that it was better than expected pre-evo.

[@emperorcubone]

I'm truly glad that people are finding out that Girafarig is useful, but the sad part is it has been useful all along, at least since Gen 4 when I tried it out myself...

[@Poke-ladd]

I’ve been trying to figure a primape evolvite strat, it can potentially work for Max HP max Def with bulk up

[@emperorcubone]

Sounds good, I'll have to try it the next round when I don't use the Ghost starter...

[@Whale-Shark-Katie]

I have a counterpoint to your point of “old Pokémon getting buffs outside of a new form or evolution”, and it’s that the new Pokémon getting buffs doesn’t give them much attention, sure, they get more usage in competitive, but it doesn’t breathe new life into them the same way a new form would. Like, just as an example, which one was more popular during gen 7, Pelipper getting drizzle or Alolan Ninetales? I think the answer is pretty obvious

[@emperorcubone]

True, and if those revamped forms stuck around that would be great, but they've chosen not to do that. So whether Alolan Ninetales is more popular or not is kind of irrelevant when they've taken it out of the running for two gens now, yet people are still using Pelipper to this day...

[@SEH_ARTGOLD]

Mankey was always my favorite pure fighting type I've wanted an evo for this line glad to see we got it. Also I was a fan of the designs of qwilfish & girafarig glad they were shown love too

[@erickfruin223]

I think you will always have your favorite Pokémon, or just some that you like, whether they get new forms or not

[@DrTimes99]

Am I the only one mad about what they did regarding Dunsparce?

[@GoinGreninja]

Yes, you are. Most absolutely love Dudunsparce for giving us more Dunsparce in this world.

[@emperorcubone]

Yeah, no. I'm not a fan of Dudunsparce either, and given the amount of fanart people have made over the years of what they WANTED a Dunsparce evolution to be, there's got to be plenty who were left disappointed...

[@videakias3000]

some of the additional evolutions were added solely for competitive. you mentioned ledian in your video needing an evolution, while I agree that it could use one this may end up beating the purpose of the "early game weaklings". ledian is a pokemon that you catch in the early game, it evolves faster than the pokemon your opponents use therefore its stats are decent in the early game, later in the game you realize that it can no longer compete with what your opponents throw at you so you are suppossed to abandon it. I guess ledian could use a few buffs here and there,like replacing the ability "iron fist" with "pure power" but I believe it is better if it stays weak.

[@olivernguyen50]

If ledian gets an evolution it might be based on the supreme being ledian from B2W2 Maybe having supreme overlord as an hidden ability like kingambit

[@emperorcubone]

I don't get that argument because we had Kanto first, meaning the "early weaklings" were the likes of Pidgey who most people carried to the Elite Four. But if it's as you say and the Pokemon was designed to be thrown away, then they should either do it and remove them entirely, or at least pretend to care and give it a regional Steel type form or something...

[@elmsigreen]

I think we need a mix of both. The Pokemon that have such bad stats that the only way to help them would be with an evolution, give them an evolution. But the Pokemon that are just kinda forgotten but still have pretty decent stats, give them a signature move or a new ability or bump one of the stats up a bit

[@harold5337]

Hopefully they’ll give it to some Pokemon like Spinda and Luvdisc, those Pokemon deserve evolutions most, and poor Luvdisc was conned out of an evolution in Gen V

[@nunyabiznes33]

I think the spots should do something. Like a signature Hidden Power + Secrer Power style move or something

[@herowither12354]

Giving Dunsparce an Evo is the equivalent of making Sudowudo grass type or Fomantis bug type. It goes against the very idea of their creation. Dunsparce was made to be dumb and not super useful. It's good for the early-mid game, and that's good enough for it. Dudunsparce only exists because people who will likely never use it in competitive think every single Pokemon needs to be competitively viable.

[@emperorcubone]

Agreed, some Pokemon don't need that treatment...

[@81dnomyar]

I have always enjoyed the new evolutions, although every time I play diamond and pearl I wish I had access to them sooner. I especially love the way it was handled this gen, because I can use almost any of the new Pokémon in a team. I do think some buffs, especially with abilities, might be good, but I also really enjoy the Pokémon that we get as new forms and evolutions. The paradox forms are generally pretty great.

[@elemomnialpha]

11:30 and there's your answer, most players ONLY use new Pokemon or Pokemon they ALREADY have an attachment to, none of your alternatives touch upon this fact but new evolutions at least contribute towards grabbing attention as new Pokemon And yeah the problem with Johto Pokemon specifically was their distribution effectively kneecapping their potential popularity

[@SinYue]

making teddiursa a early shadow pokemon is what made lots of people considering it in pokemon XD:GOD

[@ihavethebrainofarat2309]

I believe Weavile was also a good evolution for Sneasel and actually made you use it to evolve it, but yeah it was powercrept by Chien-Pao in gen 9. But I don't think it helped Sneasel as much as the physical special split did.

[@fryguy0563]

I think a cool item to create is a stat boosting one, where if the base stat total is 450 or lower it give a 25%-50% boost to all stats except hp or both defenses

[@emperorcubone]

Like an opposite Eviolite? I actually love that! It'd have to be banned in Little Cup though...

[@hereonly2comment]

Wait. The way you said delibird… I think you’re right! It’s like delivered, not deli bird. I’ve never thought of it that way, but it makes so much sense!

[@emperorcubone]

Yeah, I think everyone "not thinking" about that Pokemon is its biggest problem, but it makes a lot more sense for it to deliver thinks than work at a deli...

[@watcherknight8760]

I can definitely see what you mean here, particularly with regional evolutions where the og pokemon is just kinda ignored completely and doesn't get a new evolution/power boost while a region exclusive form does. For fully evolved pokemon like flygon, ability changes/move additions/stat increases are definitely the way to go. It's always made so much sense to me for GF to give Flygon just 20 more points in its special attack, which would make its boombursts hit way harder, and if they wanted to get REALLY crazy they could even give it quiver dance since I'd argue it's pretty butterfly-like.

[@dosdorquesgaming]

I'm a bit biased on this topic, I think. So, when I hear forgotten Pokémon, it is strange since I play and recently started commentating Lower Tier competitive. Sure, you don't see these mons in official tournaments (meaning VGC), yet many people do know them from Lower Tier play. With many of them being key threats in their respective metas. With all that said, every new addition has the possibility of lowering these mons current use to nothing, and from there dropping to the next lowest tier. Eventually, many of them become un tiered, until a new tier (official or otherwise) is made. It also, needs to be stated that restricted metas exist. Example: The Kantonian Federation restrict every Gen to Gen 1 Mons Only. There is RSE 200 and others that have their own takes on meta as a whole. All in all, while many of these Pokémon lack in world fame, many have earned a following from those delving into the Lower Tier Meta games. :3

[@roxannwinslow6730]

Do you think some Pokemon should get both a pre evolve form and an evolve form? I saw a video from Adve Adiminis that had fan art giving Cranavine the Roselia treatment.

[@emperorcubone]

I think it needs to be planned out and not just done for the sake of it. Roselia worked well, and if they had done Electabuzz at the same time it'd be fine, but I don't think Chansey would have worked as well all at once. But if they're good designs it's worth a shot!

[@CosmicNebula444]

I do think giving evolutions is the best way to improve old Pokémon. Gimmick forms are bad for the reasons you stated, temporary solution for a permanent problem. Alternate forms are okay but for some reason they REFUSE to go over the mon's original BST for regional forms, so at best you get a better type with a better stat spread that completely overshadows the og. Stat buffs and ability changes, while probably the most helpful, along with moveset updates, but the problem is they're so rare and so miniscule when they do happen it's hardly consistent enough to make the mon good every time. Evolution, however, on top of giving an upgraded BST, abilities and movesets (wow the 3 things I mentioned are the most helpful are the most helpful? Crazy) may sometimes allow the previous final form to shine, whether it be because of Eviolite or because people prefer its look. (Looking at you, Rhyperior) I do think it's inevitable that early stage mons are seen as "stepping stones" as you put it, but that's why I believe getting the base stage Pokémon as soon as possible is very important, as it allows you to bond with the smaller mon before eventually reaching that evolution requirement and seeing your hard work and dedication pay off. Legends had my favorite evolution methods of the series, and it's a shame they don't work with the mons nowadays. If all Basculin could evolve into Basculegion? God, yes please! Tl;dr: Unnga bunnga evolution good, make man hold rock

[@RedDragonForce2]

@ 11:14 Gale of Darkness did that for Teddiursa. Sure, not everyone used one, but you can be sure it was on the team for a while because of Pickup and it’s literally the first Pokémon you capture in the game, so no missing it because the tutorial forces you to capture it immediately without damaging it. So yes, they did provide Teddiursa early enough in a game. It’s just that the game in question was largely used for competitive battling over playthroughs.

[@TheNadroj10]

No one sadly got to really play that game and without emulation. No one really will get the chance to play it. Nintendo needs to rerelease those gamecube games

[@RedDragonForce2]

@@TheNadroj10 preaching to another preacher, brother!

[@AntiAntiVaxxer2008]

8:12 both are wonderful

[@jaycomplexkidrandle1889]

*Farfetch'd needs an evolution* GF: We'll give it a regional variant, and then give that an evolution.

[@shadowmarauder6033]

You bring up some good points. Pretty much the only way to make existing weak or forgotten pokémon better directly is a bad evolution or a stat buff.

[@emperorcubone]

Ironically, depending on how they evolve, Baby Pokemon could do wonders for letting a forgotten Pokemon shine. You just put the baby early enough to catch and use, and once it evolves, suddenly you've got a Pokemon on your team you couldn't normally get until much later...

[@danielshaltes911]

There's seems to be a rough graph type thing with coolness/popularity on one axis & degree of help needed on the other; kinda like the mythical crazy-to-hot ratio.

[@bandit3507]

Ease up turbo, Murkrow lost relevance after series one and only filled a certain role due to access to a couple moves and prankster. It's back to being irrelevant now.

[@chrisjoseph3883]

Azumarill had Huge Power since they debut of abilities in gen 3… Azumarill itself was only released 1 gen prior to this… the fairy type did add an extra dimension to this mon giving it a dragon immunity and stab play rough…. But the sets are usually the same with belly drum and aqua get cuz despite its huge attack prowess it’s a very slow mon

[@dbzluva987654321]

I think it's hard to say what the best way to handle it would be because theirs such a dichotomy with fans of the franchise. People who play competitively pretty much only care about how useful a Pokemon is in battle with little to no regard about it's design and stuff. Then people who don't play comp do still care about a Pokemon's usability during the game, but things like design and other factors matter more since you can more or less use absolutely whatever you want to get through the game.

[@emperorcubone]

I'm definitely more in the latter camp, and a weird design can be off-putting, but it's mostly a delay if anything, and once I do get around to trying a Pokemon it usually wins me over!

[@barrybend7189]

To be fair Dudunsparse is hilarious as it's evolution is more rare than encountering shinies.

[@johanstenfelt1206]

Hm, fair and valid points and opinions, it’s a hard question, I don’t know for sure, but I get where you’re coming from, I hope they get a better handle on this.

[@emperorcubone]

I don't mind the new forms and such, I just wish they would have some logic behind who and how they change things, since Primeape may not have been as popular as it once was, but it's still leagues above where Sunflora is...

[@johanstenfelt1206]

@@emperorcubone fair point.

[@cbggaming1463]

Funny enough, Beedrill didn't really appear in the game's after it's mega was cut. It was in BDSP I guess but in the post game only

[@shadowthief6471]

8:33 Mime Jr is my favorite baby pokemon and one of my favs in general i also love mr mime more than most people

[@kevinb2389]

I can feel the spite in his voice on this topic on how the selection process for Pokémon to get redesigned lol

[@Squirtle_Squad_Supremacy]

I feel like every cross Gen evo was needed, maybe except for Kingambit because Bisharp was excellent already. I do love the chess concept though

[@peteypiranalover]

Girafarig is now a metagame staple of little cup. Thus it actually gets attention as girafarig due to farigaraf

[@Rose-yx6jq]

0:54 Okay but that is a fire fakemon.

[@raymondhahn739]

I think the best way to help an older mon is Stat Buffs, better Abilities and wider movepool. Regional Variants and evolutions feel like slapping a band aid on a infected wound and expecting it to be ok. Like when we get home compatibility both Samurott forms can be sent over but only Hisuain Samurott gets to play with new toys like Sharpness and Ceaseless Edge and unovan Samurott isn't gonna see much usage

[@emperorcubone]

Right, especially in that scenario where one is just plain old Water, and the other has all the cool toys. At least Decidueye has a bit more to define both its versions, but you raise a good point about the ability Sharpness. Starters shouldn't be stuck with their boring same abilities all the time, or at least make it easier to change them...

[@raymondhahn739]

@Emperor Cubone and it's crazy bc Greninja is the only starter with 3 abilities just let the rest get another ability and all have access to all 3

[@KingXeonMyroku]

Personally I do like how some Paradox Pokémon are just a play on to old Mege Evolves like with Soaring Moon and Iron Valiant were just former Mega’s of Salamence and Gallade. While I am not that happy with Soaring Moon’s typing I do like Iron Valiant’s typing of being a Fighting/Fairy type which makes it difficult to fight against.

[@RFE812]

I know you’re not really a fan of Rhyperior, but I feel that it made Rhydon more respected.

[@Compucles]

Though, only because Rhyperior has a terrible design, and it gave Rhydon access to Eviolite.

[@gliscornumber151]

I say some of these are actually good for the pokemon For example, dudunsparce allowed dunscparce to fall to LC where it was so OP it got banned Regional forms are a great way of bringing new relevance back, Alolan Muk is such a major improvement on the original and all it did was add a new type and ability Megas can be used in conjunction with their base forms sometimes. Like picking up a kill with sharpness gallade before mega evolving, setting something up with prankster sableye, or getting a speed boost in from sharpedo Paradox pokemon aren't the best though as they really have nothing to do with the Mons they're based on and really should have been evolutions As for more minor changes like you said, times where these have helped have been very rare, you used Azumarill as your example but it needed an OP ability AND a new type just to be relevant. Most of the Mons you listed that got stat boosts are still not seen a whole lot, like few people use scolipede in OU or VGC dispite it's attack boost and speed boost. Times change too drastically in pokemon to the point where a simple ability or stat change isn't enough to save them. Most pls pokemon either need a new evolution or a complete overhaul in order to maintain relevance as time goes on

[@Whale-Shark-Katie]

At least in my opinion, new forms and evos for old Pokémon is less about improving their usability and more about getting people talking about that Pokémon again and breathing new life into it, like, who cared about Qwilfish before Hisuian Qwilfish and Overqwil. And even with way less creative designs like Dudunsparce, I think they’re meant more as jokes rather than a serious design

[@silvercomics3517]

I think it just comes down to whether the designers had an idea for an evolution. Whether that be because the region lends to a specific idea or someone else has an idea, that Pokemon gets an upgrade.

[@munchrai6396]

The big reason I prefer standard evolution over regional variants is because you are able to transfer up any strengths that the previous stage had to the new evolution. Just imagine if Obstagoon got access to Belly Drum Extreme Speed. With its extra bulk, the Pokemon would become incredibly useful instead of seeing less use than its original. Would also be really cool if Corsola evolved directly into Cursola and gave it a Rock/Ghost typing, while still keeping excellent attributes like it's Natural Cure ability. Regional Variants do have their place as well, it can be difficult to evolve a Pokemon when it's been eclipsed by a better design, so Pokemon like Muk, Rapidash and Tauros need to take what they can get. Raichu, Goodra and Marrowak are definitely my favorite examples because they feel like more in depth takes on the original design on Pokemon that either can't evolve or couldn't obtain that sort of depth from evolving. Marrowak gains an entirely new typing after all, something that is only ever seen from Eevee

[@zachg5856]

kingambit is a example of the best way to give a new evolution to the pokemon

[@TheCoolBeanie]

An item like evolite but for attack stats would be fun but maybe broken XD

[@MCBlaZiKeN]

I really hope that they let us use the scarlet and violet books to use as evo items. Allowing us to evolve into the paradoxes

[@EnriqueLaberintico]

Scarlet and Violet Stone?

[@GoinGreninja]

They're not evolutions but different Pokémon. It sounds absolutely stupid.

[@cofagrigusfan24]

i don't think there is a way to prevent some Pokémon from being forgotten these new forms, evolutions, types, counterparts, ect. just gives a "hey remember this Pokémon?" moment

[@peterrealar2.067]

DUDE, Jumpluff got freaking POLLEN PUFF which is great in both Singles and Doubles. How do you not know this? Guess being a Grass type user has its perks.

[@emperorcubone]

Sure, and Xatu has Magic Bounce, so that's a good start, but they're still pretty far out from being at the top with the rest of them, so they could always use more...

[@olivernguyen50]

There are some pokemons in my opinion that could use another evolution like ariados maractus ledian shinottic chimecho spinda delcatty fearow and purugly whether they get a regional form or not and for seel if it gets a paldean form in the SV DLC i want to see a evolution based on it beta design

[@olivernguyen50]

Oh and swoobat to get another evolution as well

[@emperorcubone]

You know, I totally forgot Shiinotic existed until you said it there, so you're right! It sure could use some kind of help!

[@StreyoneX]

He spitting! Stantler was hard on my team back in Gen 2

[@JoseF420]

Eviolite Bisharp: I see this as an absolute win! Though in all seriousness, I think rebranding old pokémon is a mixed bag. For one, I think giving THE pokémon a new ability, a new useful move or a slight stat adjustment is the best case scenario. Roserade is one of those pokémon that could really use this boost, after Gen 8 went out of its way to strip everything that made Roserade unique or useful (technician hidden power no longer being available, spikes being ignored by boots, weather ball receiving a much wider distribution). A single ability did wonders for Politoed, Pelipper, Ninetales, Torkoal and Vaniluxe, just to name a few. A new evolution is a middle ground, given that there's a 50/50 of outclassing the original pokémon or make it shine with a different approach of its own. I think the same could be said about convergent evos and regional forms. Paradox is just the worst case scenario for me. It's pretty much like "well, it looks like that pokémon you knew, but it's not related to it in the slightest". I think generational gimmicks fall in this group too, since now we know they're only gonna last for a single generation, or two at best.

[@BillyCistra]

As someone who has used romhacks, having a teddiursa early game is actually quite great and I wish it were a thing in actual johto

[@Chaoticus9]

A lot of weird choices for the Pokedex in Scarlet and Violet really made me think they'd get some kind of special treatment. With choices like Tropius, Cryogonal and the mentioned Sunflora really had me thinking they were going to get some kind of new form or boost of any kind but didn't.

[@lazarquakestopmotion12]

At the end of the day it all comes down to what tools a pokemon has at its disposal. A great example of this is torkoal coming in with a B.S.T. of 470 which isn't great, but it has access to eruption and the ability drought so it sees a lot of play. Then on the other hand you have pokemon like slaking with an enormous B.S.T. of 650 but has one of the worst abilities in the game which makes it really hard to use. So it wouldn't take much to make some of these seemingly unplayable pokemon viable. Just offering some pokemon access to more support moves or coverage moves can make a big difference. Then on top of that giving a bad pokemon a good ability could make it elite overnight

[@andrewharris1344]

I don’t mind some older Pokémon getting evolutions or new forms it bring them back into the light. Plus with dudunsparce and annihilape, kingambit they are not regionally based so they can be used permanently for the player or opponents in remakes.

[@Officewaffle]

Murkrow can definitely not stand toe to toe with the big guns. It's there to get prankster tailwind up and that's it.

[@Squirtle_Squad_Supremacy]

In doubles yeah. But for singles honchkrow was needed

[@dnd1016]

Paradox Idea for Xatu and Jumpluff with a Evo for Sunflora Ancient Watcher (Dark/Flying Xatu. More bulkier Xatu that watches over all from where it stands, sensing all with it’s unstable psychic abilities, until one day it focuses it all at one point. The Sun and the future. Iron Carrier (Steel/Flying Jumpluff) Jumpluff, but it’s a Square Amazon Drone. mini Corviknight but more of a Support pokemon. Sunshining (Grass/Fire) a Taller and bulkier evolution of Sunflora, now with the fire type, playing with either a Bulky Set-up role, being a big damage sponge while it sets up, or it takes the note from Lando-T to set up before doing the Sweeping yourself. only if a Buffed Sunflora with a fire type can do that.