Do Range Extenders and Plug-In Hybrid Electrified Vehicles Have A Future? | Episode 76

Kyle and Dave look at the existence and potential of alternative electrified powertrains, such as PHEV, Range Extender, and everything in between. Are they a logical middle ground between ICE and EV?
Find us on all of these places:
KZbin: / outofspecpodcast
Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...
Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/0tKIQfK...
Amazon: music.amazon.com/podcasts/473...
For further inquiries please email [e-mail]
#rangextender #phev #electrification

[@nickwill1364]

At one point I was seriously considering the RAV4 Prime and then a Toyota Hybrid of some sort, but while having a Sienna Hybrid on vacation this summer, I found myself gamifying keeping it in EV mode as much as I could and I realized what's the point of having a gas motor weighing the car down, needing maintenance , use to stay functional, and gas that expires when I was focused on not using gas at all. Now, I have shifted to wanting a full BEV instead and maybe a gas vehicle as a secondary/beater/workhorse. If I didn't have a place to charge an EV, I would definitely have a Toyota Hybrid/PHEV instead.

[@fishyducky]

I owned a Chevy Volt for several years. Usually got about 60 miles of all-electric range. I used 100% electricity for my commute and most short weekend trips. Gas was only necessary when traveling very far. I wish GM still made the volt as I would still likely be in one instead of an EV. I really enjoyed the versatility that car gave me.

[@John-209]

PHEV makes the most sense for me, 34k miles on Pacifica hybrid. 27k of them electric, family of 5 and 2 dogs. lots of space and 31 mpg on gas. 🤙🤙

[@fjalics]

I want to disagree with you, but you still can't get a EV minivan in the US. If nothing else, the long wheelbase id.Buzz is supposed to happen.

[@nc3826]

people who want to disagree with you should G00gle the expression.... That the perfect is the enemy of the Good....

[@michaelcummins5974]

I think to really make this concept of extended range EVs plausible, you have to figure out a way to make it optional upon use case. So you sell a bev with reasonable around town range of 100-150 miles or so, but it has the ability to add this generator only when needed. The vehicle would be designed to roll it right into it's home, maybe in the useless frunk area, clip it down and plug in the power etc, and away you go. This unit could be purchased with the car for those that would use it all the time, or you could go to a rental center, possibly though the car dealership, to rent it just for your road trips, and return it when done. You can use that space for storage when it's not being used for generator. Smaller more reasonable battery pack for everyday use, less weight both in less batteries and not carrying the generator all the time, less waste hauling around equipment that rarely gets used, etc. Possibly this area could also have a large extra battery that could be rented and clipped in instead that would boost range enough without needing the gas engine. Way less waste on battery minerals etc too. Lighter sportier more efficient cars. Trick would be getting the ride dynamics to not be too greatly altered with the added weight installed, but that's probably doable with some adjustable suspension etc.

[@TalismanPHX]

Personally, as an American living in rural Virginia, a hybrid is the best solution for me. Preferably a Maverick XLT hybrid (with AWD) would be perfect for my use case. The electric charging infrastructure has NOT spread out far enough in southwestern Virginia, even in Roanoke, Lynchburg, or Charlottesville. As a homeowner, I regularly need to haul things in the bed. Do I want to go fully electric, yes. I want to reduce my carbon footprint 👣. Is the infrastructure there in rural areas to support EV adoption rifht now? Absolutely not. This is why Ford cannot build enough Maverick hybrid vehicles to keep up with consumer demand. Great video, love your bantering with your Dad. Very thought provoking.

[@nc3826]

I'm hoping when they catch up with their demand that make a PHEV version.

[@commanderroddi7742]

I am a fan of PHEV. I have owned in the past a Chevy Volt PHEV, and loved that car. I now own a Jeep Wrangler 4xE and I think that is a great PHEV where I get enough electric range for my commute (usually no more than 10 miles each way, and I can get about 24 miles on my car). When running on the ICE, it never runs on ICE only, b/c it keeps some battery to boost the car so the 2.0L turbo feels powerful enough for the Jeep even when rock crawling or wheeling (and I LOVE driving this car off road on electric only, and most of my driving (except longer road trips that I take every once in a while) I'm using only the electric motors, to the point where I only spend about $25-$30 a month on gasoline (unless I goon a road trip. Inspired by your videos, I did ttake a trip to Alaska on my Jeep (borrowed a roof top tent, packed it and had about 17 days of crazy fun). I would not have been able to do this on a range extended car I dont' think, nor an EV. I need a car that can save me money, and charging at home works (full charge in two hours and a half). But ON certaindays of the month, I need to take about 300 packages to the post office and sometimes more. so I need good cargo volume, and I also need a car where I can take 5 passengers confortably (the jeep isn't really it for long trips). I do have a Rivian reservation for both a R1S and R1T and while I love the truck, it is a big tight to take 5 people on a road trip. I am also considering a Mustang Mach-E GT (should have enough cargo volume, and should be able to squesh five pax in there?) anyhow, for now, the Wrangler works good for me except for longer trips. a Chrysler Pacifica would work as well, but not sure I want a minivan and its crazy long wait for some of those PHEV vans here. e Transit won't work (no passenger room?) and R1S would be good, but not sure I want to pay the price tag for that (I reserved the R1T before aMarch, soI can get an okay price on it, bu tnot the R1S). so, what is left for me? Maybe a base EQB 300? Not sure. For now, I'm looking at the Mach-E GT or keeping my Jeep, possibly switching to a Grand Cherokee TRailhawk 4xE instead? Anyhow, in my experience the 4xe that Jeep has out and the PHEV on the Pacifica are good examples of PHEV vehicles.

[@chaunceysnodgress3672]

Take the R1T. Then sell it to pay for the R1S.

[@richardh3587]

Have been thinking about getting a BEV since...well....2013 when I first test drove a Model S. In theory it's a great idea, and I've come close several times (most recently with an Ioniq 5) but I've decided that an X5 45e (PHEV for those not familiar with BMW nomenclature) for a many reasons: 1. It's one of the few vehicles left that still qualifies for a the 7500 tax credit (atleast through the end of this year) 2. I can actually factory order one exactly to my specs and the dealer is not marking it up or insisting on any mandatory add-ons. Contrast that with pretty much every Hyundai dealer on the west coast who wants 5k+ in dealer markups on the Ioniq 5...and you dont even get to custom order what you want. 3. We only have and need 1 car. For our usage scenario (errands and driving our kid to school), we drive about 20-30 miles a day. I'd say maybe 1/3-1/2 of that is spent in slow moving or stop and go traffic...perfect for even the small electric motor in the x5. I will use the gas engine as much as I feel like (sometimes just for the fun of it) and still I will save about $150 month vs similar sized gas only car. I will not hyper mile or drive in EV only mode. We probably go on about 2k worth of longer road trips per year...I'm totally fine averaging 18-20mpg or whatever atrocious MPG I'll get from driving such a heavy car on gas only...but i'll still come out ahead. 4. Factoring in points 1,2 & 3 this car will likely be cheaper to own over the 4 year warranty period than most other BEVs and PHEVs on the market. 5. My wife is not a tech or a car person. She would need a lot of training to navigate the world of CCS DC fast charging. She often takes long trips, and I just can't see her having the patience to learn and deal with all the inevitable BS she'd face with Electrify America, EVGO, Chargepoint ,etc. 6. Unlike most other PHEVs, the x5 has a sweet inline 6 that sound great and feels great when it kicks on. I'm also not forced to get sweaty, uncomfortable fake pleather. Instead I'm ordering BMW's beautiful Merino full-grain leather. Yes, I've tried almost all the fake leathers (including Tesla) and have hated them all. 7. A Model Y would be roughly the same price (factoring in the tax credits) but doesn't offer the comfort, build quality and features that the X5 45e does. Just not worth it IMO. (I dont care about FSD beta, dog mode, fart mode, and video games...I do care about 360 cameras, massaging and ventilated seats, blind spot monitoring in the mirrors, CarPlay, HUDs, and opening sunroofs). 8. I love BMW's ergonomics and cabin tech. Idrive is my favorite infotainment system right now..great combo of touch screen plus control knob. Both have their place for different use cases...glad they give you the choice. 9. In theory, I understand that pure EVs should be more reliable due to fewer moving parts. But, in reality, we haven't gotten there yet (for a whole host of reasons). The current X5 is now in its 4th MY and has had most of the bugs worked out. I don't want to be an unwitting beta tester. As someone who loves tech, I get the appeal of BEVs, but right now I stilll dont think the work for everyone (myself included). But I"m more pragmatic than dogmatic I guess.

[@CandycaneBeyond]

I loved my Prius Prime. Had it for 5 years. I just got a used i3 Rex. Love the idea that I have the Rex as a lifesaver if I run low. I need to get the OBD scanner and make it kick in sooner.

[@nc3826]

Kyle, thank you for such an amusing, give and take, on such an interesting topic of mine. But you missed the key advantage of a range extender is that it doesn't require the use of a complex conventional ICE engine and a separate generator.A much simpler integrated motor generator unit, could be used instead. Such as a Free Piston Linear Motor/Generator from Aquarius Engines for example. Let's hope that Stellantis will go with something like this, if they offer a range extender In any of their BEVs.

[@freddiecarr7602]

My Clarity at 65 mph gets 50 miles on ev hers in SoCal. My drive from San Berdo to San Dimas is 33 miles one way.

[@kbmblizz1940]

Had a phev, drives exactly like a BEV on freeway. Charged free at work & home solar, practically free driving 60 mi daily. A tank of gas lasted so long I worry it gets stale. Costed less than 1/2 a Y. $30k saved invested into TSLA 2019 😊

[@ericm4840]

I'm finding that many of the PHEVs don't have enough power in the electric motors to actually drive around town. A PHEV with a good size battery pack and a relatively powerful electric motor (or motors) can be really flexible. I don't see many of these - RAV4 Prime seems to be one of the best.

[@nc3826]

That is true of most of the PHEVs in the past.... But not of many of the current performance oriented ones....

[@wewk584]

We need a 2024 version of this

[@CandycaneBeyond]

I live in what's known as Chicagoland. Large suburban area around the city. There are so few chargers it's ridiculous. The opening of Tesla charges was exciting. Then I found out that the only one that got opened was in a private apartment building in Chicago. 😢

[@bigbadLN]

Range extender makes sense if it is relatively light weight to reduce the overall weight of the car since a smaller battery would suffice, The refueling cost would be similar because refueling cost at charging stations is on par with refueling an ICE car.

[@artxiom]

Great discussion! I was always wondering if a REX based on biomethane wouldn't be the best solution: we could produce lighter, cheaper electric cars with smaller batteries (let's say with a range of ca. 100km (around 93 miles), I think this would mean ca. a 30kWh battery based on avg. consumption) and still use a carbon-neutral (or even negative) fuel that produces less emissions. This would be anyway only needed for long range drives.

[@davidws5439]

The only plug in hybrid that should be made in late 22 is in a vehicle that tows or for real heavy loads and long huals.

[@chaunceysnodgress3672]

Range extended electric vehicles are PHEVs. The differences you’re talking about are parallel hybrids versus series hybrids. The best way to understand that is asking if the power is directly capable of moving the vehicle alone. In a parallel system both the electric and ice can move the vehicle with out the other. Not so in a series system. Only the electric will move the vehicle. Operationally those are the differences. From there discussions about the pros and cons can be had.

[@rmwaye]

Ram Revolution will debut at the LA auto show in November.

[@Goosekovski]

I disagree with your dads sentiment about the future of BEV’s. Small battery to quick charge frequently will work for city commuters, however, the most popular vehicle in the US is a truck (F-150). High density battery packs with rapid charging, a recycling program, and replacement batteries for those that keep cars long term is the future. Plenty of us use or vehicles to tow or haul and don’t want to stop every hour to charge. *edit* I forgot to say that this will most likely require future battery chemistry, whether that’s solid state, Al, or some other design.

[@davidbutler99]

Extended range with an economical generator is genious. Looking into getting an i3 rex. It would more than cover daily commute. Then apparentlt it is 70 mpg or better for combined mpg of 180 or make up a number if you really never use the gas.

[@georgesackinger2002]

There is one option that wasn't discussed. The Rivian will be tough to use under heavy use. The long trip with frequent (100 mile) charging is very inconvenient. My solution would be to use a truck such as the Rivian with a small built in battery pack. When needing a max load or long range, have available rental extended batteries. These could be slid into the bed of the truck with a universal plug to extend the range of the vehicle. This would be practical because heavy load hauling is not practical to build in permanently and haul it around. These packs could extend the range of the pickup. Gas engines could be used or the large battery pack slide in. Currently the plug in port is on the outside of the pickup but would need to be another in the front of the bed. Best of both worlds!

[@undrachvrsage]

For trucks that might be used for regular (once or twice a week) long and/or heavy tows (100+miles round trip, 6000+lbs) range extenders or hybrids make a certain amounts of sense. But if it's a real everyday high mileage work truck EV doesn't actually make a whole lot of sense timewise. Especially not in rural, well off the highway areas. EVs are great for a lot of things, 90% of consumer uses really, but not hauling unfortunately.

[@davidsvideos195]

Why are you talking about the range Rover sport when the second gen Chevy Volt is the more obvious choice for longest range (50 to 60 miles) before switching over to engine power?

[@nc3826]

Volt was marketed as a range extender, even though it wasn't and it's No longer in production....

[@ProfessorHamer]

Kyle, your use case of a range extended ev for towing unfortunately would be prohibitively expensive and not a series hybrid. To tow you need high continuous torque and power, so the vehicle would need a large ice, and either a large expensive rear electric motor or dual electric motor as well.

[@ronolsberg1468]

I agree with you but maybe it could be used to extend the range of the battery before needing to recharge the battery. AFAIK, most range extended vehicles do NOT use the ICE engine/Generator until the battery is at a fairly low state of charge. When towing, the range extender generator could be used for the entire trip therefore help with towing range. You would not be able to drive forever on gas like a Chevy Volt, while on a long trip, but you might not need to charge every 100 miles.

[@davidws5439]

IMO, the inferstruction of DC fast chargers will get FAR BETTER in 2023 once the IRA funds are released to the charging providers. I'm sure all of them have orders for large numbers of DC fast chargers. The utility companies are also increasing their capacity. I also think large battery storage will also be increase and help the grid.

[@ojeskog]

Once you accept that a PHEV will use petrol and will not drive only on electricity it is easier to understand them and the day to day user experience is also a lot better. For the nerds, the BEV driving experience is a lot better and the RExEVs with a smallish battery makes more sense. But for anyone without any massive car interest it is a great way to get to use, and understand, how little EV range=battery you actually need for your day to day driving. (See it as a PHEV will save you a gallon or two of gas depending on model every time you can fully charge them.) They are the quickest, but stop-gap/educational, way to reduce our gas consumption as they don't need (or as people think they need) massive batteries while the infrastructure for car charging and battery production is getting put in to place over the next 5-10 years. If you don't have the ability to slow charge at home or at work, don't bother with a PHEV. If you do massive amounts of miles every day, don't bother with a PHEV. What has been letting the PHEVs down is that people have been buying them for tax reasons only and never charged them as they have been abusing the absolute best benefit of PHEVs. They do work perfectly as a regular gas car when needed. The other things that have let them down is the initially mega slow charging speeds and too underpowered EV motors, but both those issues are being addressed in many manufacturers later models. Remember that when sitting stuck in traffic it doesn't matter if you have tons of power. The bumper in front of you is stopping you from going faster anyway. I might agree with Kyle and personally I'd love to have more range extended BEVs with smaller batteries, but I can't see it happening now as when the absolute majority of people are to take the step to a plug-in vehicle it will sadly make more sense to buy that BEV with the massive battery and quoted range than one with a much smaller battery/range with a range extender. And by the time enough people have gone over to the BEV world the infrastructure will be in place enough to negotiate the need for a RExBEV in the first place. But the honeymoon period for public charging of BEVs is over. Things will get worse for a few years until they get better again. Sadly Tesla is the only manufacturer that has understood the importance of public charging. But they don't have the capacity to provide enough batteries/cars and charging for everyone that wants to drive BEVs either.

[@ericm4840]

The attraction of the PHEV for me is that I can tell my wife if she runs out of charge she can just use the gas engine and, if needed, refill the gas tank at a gas station. My wife is not a car person. I'm not sure about your significant others but I am very concerned about my wife climbing the learning curve related to pure EVs. I know I have learned a tremendous amount from you guys in the last few months and I realize I would have been a mess if I bought an EV three or four months ago.

[@fjalics]

My wife got a Bolt. I installed a Level 2 charger 3 feet from her charging port with a 25 foot cable. That was key. She hasn't done many long trips with it. Fantastic around town. I have a Tesla. Dead simple to road trip with.

[@nc3826]

and hopefully better swapping will make it to the US someday....Which is simpler than any of the charging options,......It is even simpler than filling up a gas tank....

[@richardh3587]

Yep...this is one of (many) reasons I'm going with an X5 PHEV as our next car. My wife recently took a last minute long trip with my 8 year old and father in law...i couldn't make it. The thought of having to talk her down from a meltdown after an invevitable issue with DC fast charging made me shudder. Personally I'd enjoy the challenge but I've got to think about the whole family.

[@fjalics]

@@nc3826 I don't agree. You would need to have the same pack for every car, or, you would have to stock packs of every type in every place. There is no chance that will happen in a small town. In China, they have cities where 10s of millions of people live in one city. There you can do it, but I still think it's far more convenient to have a Level 2 charger where you park your car.

[@fjalics]

@@richardh3587 You could also get a Tesla. The worst thing that can happen is one of 8 chargers doesn't work, and you have to move to a different stall, and that is unusual.

[@ericm4840]

I didn't know about the i3 range extender until I heard you talk about it a few weeks ago. I agree that it is a good possible solution but I don't believe we have any current examples on the market today . . . are there any? I wonder why not. We all have seen the video of the guy traveling across the country in his Tesla without recharging because he installed a little engine that could charge it . . . is it just an issue of needing to educate consumers? Or are there significant challenges (engineering . . . regulatory . . .)?

[@nc3826]

The ironic thing was the limitations placed on it was only based on California regulations, but because it was such a large market BMW sold it that way in all 50 states.

[@nc3826]

And a key advantage of a range extender is that it doesn't require the use of a complex conventional ICE engine and a separate generator. A much simpler integrated motor generator unit, could be used instead. Such as a Free Piston Linear Motor/Generator from Aquarius Engines for example. Let's hope that Stellantis will go with something like this, if they offer a range extender In any of their BEVs. Just a thought....

[@RaymondCore]

A range extender lets you buy the smallest/lighest battery bank for all you normal trips and use a range extender for when you need more. A range extender, keeps your battery at optimum charge for ultimate battery life. I'm waiting fot the e-Rex. It is 500cc, 35 Kg., vibrationless, can burn gasoline, diesel, or natural gas, tuned to running a battery charger that kicks in before the battery gets low enough so the battery is not overextended. When the battery eventually needs replacing, you have a smaller battery to replace so the cost is minimal. With the lighter weight, you will get more battery mileage and improved extender mileage. Everyone will buy electric if they don't have huge battery cost and any worry about range anxiety; both of which is covered by range extender.

[@MachE_Mutt]

I like the idea of a range extended EV over a PHEV because of the performance penalties imposed when you limit propulsion to just the electric bits. The range extended EV makes the most sense to me if you can only have one vehicle. I am concerned for both options about stale gas and gummed up carbs and injectors especially when home charging and limited use of the vehicle could mean that the gas bits go unused for long periods. You also need to keep the oily bits lubricated and everything moving to keep from having something seize up. I have to drive my ICE car every few weeks just for that reason. I had considered a PHEV as an alternate vehicle to our EV but decided, for the little use it gets, just to keep the ICE and forgo the added expense and complexity of the PHEV. However, in my opinion, the range extended EV is moot because no one is making them.

[@nc3826]

A key advantage of a range extender is that it doesn't require the use of a complex conventional ICE engine and a separate generator. A much simpler integrated motor generator unit, could be used instead. Such as a Free Piston Linear Motor/Generator from Aquarius Engines for example. Let's hope that Stellantis will go with something like this, if they offer a range extender In any of their BEVs. Just a thought....

[@hitreset0291]

Good video other than you need a few more commercials interruptions for this video (sarcasm).

[@steveroper8733]

For towing, why not include a gas generator or battery pack in the trailer and then design the trailer couple to also transfer the electricity to the tow vehicle?

[@uhjyuff2095]

the generator would have to be big like Kyle says like 50kw size or bigger. and then its such a dead weight when you are not towing and takes up the space in the truck bed!!!!!!!!!!!

[@steveroper8733]

@@uhjyuff2095 If the generator or battery is a trailer component, it wouldn’t be dead weight for the vehicle.

[@nc3826]

@@steveroper8733 The main issues are compatibility and liability. Between the automaker and the trailer maker. But there have been one off hacks.... Feel free to G00gle them.... FWIW It makes more sense for semi trucks..... And it's being tested in a few markets.....

[@ab-tf5fl]

I think the economics of a trailer with a power supply would be difficult, as it would drastically increase the cost of the trailer, and the 99.9% of trucks which are still gas powered would have no use for it. I could imagine a company like Tesla, someday, making a special camper van trailer, with its own motors and batteries, designed specifically to be towed by the cyber truck. But, the thing would be insanely expensive, to the point where it functions only as a toy for people who are both EV enthusiasts and very rich.

[@uhjyuff2095]

@@ab-tf5fl I think a battery in a trailer for a Semi truck makes a lot of sense. Maybe have the actual Semi truck have a small battery, and the tractor trailer have the big battery for long range towing. And the best part is if the truck needs more range it can swap to a different trailer with a different battery that is charged up.

[@godofdun]

If the idea of the range extender is that you're driving most of the time in electric then doesn't that just have the same drawback as a PHEV in that it's "dragging around" a combustion engine + gas?

[@nc3826]

a key advantage of a range extender is that it doesn't 'require' the use of a complex conventional ICE engine and a separate generator. A much simpler integrated motor generator unit, could be used instead. Such as a Free Piston Linear Motor/Generator from Aquarius Engines for example. Let's hope that Stellantis will go with something like this, if they offer a range extender In any of their BEVs. Just a thought....

[@ab-tf5fl]

Perhaps one option for a range extender could be something you rent when you need it, rather than something that you're hauling around on every trip, whether you need it or not. In the case of a pickup truck, it could essentially take the form of a generator that mounts to the cargo bed, burning fuel to add charge to the battery, while the truck's electric motors would remain the sole source of propulsion for the wheels. Under the assumption that the range extender's primary use case is towing, losing cargo bed capacity isn't a big issue because you've got all that room in the trailer. The only permanent range extender equipment in the truck would be wiring and possibly mounting brackets.

[@frumpd63]

Range extenders make way more sense in cold climates given how much more heat is available to scavenge. Our Model Y struggles to get 175 miles in the winter.

[@nc3826]

I agree in principle, but most past examples were based on air cooled engines, that utilized none of theIr waste heat.... And can you imagine the range drop in BEVs that do not have a heat pump?

[@bradbeckett3800]

Love the idea of that extended range truck. That would give me the best value right now. Give me the bev truck with lfp battery chemistry and range extender with 6-8 gallons gas. 99% of my driving would be electric. When I tow the camper I’ll have to use a little gas.

[@TheRockHardKeg]

It’s be awesome to see manufacturers sell range-extender add ons, like one you can put in the bed of a pickup. Like Dave though, I’m kinda worried about public perception of this. The EV extremists will hate it, and the anti-EV folks will use it as fuel (pun not intended) to the argument that EVs can’t get the job done.

[@nc3826]

Since it's only an option EV extremists can leave that option off their shopping list.... and getting anti-EV folks to use a fuel powered EV is a step in the right direction.... But it would be mostly aimed at the majority, who are pragmatists....

[@uhjyuff2095]

if you want 50 percent more range while towing in the Rivian a 30kw generator could do about 0.5kwh/mile. if you want 100 percent more range while towing you need a 60kw generator to gain 1.0kwh/mile. Sounds crazy but how do you like my math?

[@John-209]

Kind of weird how Chrysler kept the big V6 in their PHEV.

[@nc3826]

BMW used a crappy motorcycle engine for its range extender, that was far from an ideal choice. Automakers make choices like that for cost reasons, So it's not that weird.

[@John-209]

@@nc3826 well I’m glad they did

[@nc3826]

sure, but I'm more interested in if the Ram Revolution will offer a range extender?

[@John-209]

@@nc3826 Range extender is definitely not the right term for a gas engine that will go 500 miles

[@nc3826]

semantics are boring

[@BitJam]

Kyle, how much gas range would you want from a range extended EV for it to be worthwhile to tow cross-country? How many gallons of gas in the tank? If you charged overnight would you save the batteries for acceleration throughout the day? What kind of mpg would you expect from an extended EV while towing? How much range (while towing) would you want from an EV to make it "good enough" so you wouldn't want/need a range extender?

[@nc3826]

A key advantage of a range extender is that it doesn't require the use of a complex conventional ICE engine and a separate generator. A much simpler integrated motor generator unit, could be used instead. Such as a Free Piston Linear Motor/Generator from Aquarius Engines for example. Let's hope that Stellantis will go with something like this, if they offer a range extender In any of their BEVs. Just a thought....

[@BitJam]

@@nc3826 I agree. A Tesla Model Y only holds the energy equivalent of 2.5 gallons of gas. But it gets effectively 130 mpg. Can a range extended truck get 100 mpg while towing? If so then you only need a 4 gallon gas tank and it all makes a lot of sense.

[@nc3826]

A heat engine's efficiency Is based on Carnot's theorem, unlike an electric motor.... So no direct comparisons are possible.... But on a 'net' energy density basis ie gravimetric and volumetric, an engine wins.... And the other issues are the lack of DCFCs and the slower charging speed versus filling up a gas tank.... Until battery swapping becomes available.....but that's a whole new rabbit hole to go down....

[@BitJam]

@@nc3826 ISTM we can directly compare mpg between an ICE vehicle and a range extended EV towing the same trailer. A range extender uses an ICE. The theoretical maximum efficiency of a heat engine is based on Carnot's theorem but the real-world efficiency is significantly worse. Typically 46% theoretical and 35% real-world. An EV converts over 77% of the energy from the grid into power at the wheels while an ICE vehicle converts only 12% to 30% of the power in the gasoline to power at the wheels. Yes, ICE wins out on energy density (which is why range extenders can make sense). Here is a good video on it: Why Gas Engines Are Far From Dead - Biggest EV Problems kzbin.info/www/bejne/fpLXkqmVh8mhpNE OTOH, many people, including Kyle Conner, have shown that the charging time for an EV is not an issue for road trips since it's safest and most enjoyable to stop periodically anyway. It's certainly not an issue for home charging which is where most people do most of their charging. here is another video on why EVs are great for road trips (from BestInTESLA): Busting MYTH about the Electric Car and Road Trips - Tesla is hands down the best EV for road trips! kzbin.info/www/bejne/aGHUoHWVZ86JbNk

[@nc3826]

@@BitJamheat Is not electrical energy, so there's no way to make a 'direct' comparison.... "engines win out on energy density" is the bottom line, since efficiency is already part of the net energy density figures.... I was just trying to explain it for your edification.... Sorry for confusing you.... home charging is not dcfc..... and as they say 'time is money' in economics, no matter how much that point is rationalized by most EV Advocates on KZbin... But battery swapping still is the best option..... especially for road trips....

[@dhdh4178]

Amazing how you managed to both completely miss, and yet prove the point at the same time: Plug-In Hybrids and Extended Range Electric Vehicles are really not the same species, despite being lumped together in the minds of most people. Dave's confusion on the subject really drives home how misunderstood EREVs really are. Even car OEMs cannot seem to advertise and sell the benefits of the EREV drivetrain correctly. I really think you need to follow up this podcast by talking to actual long term PHEV and EREV owners (as separate groups) to get further into the "best of both worlds, worst of both worlds, or worthwhile compromise?" debate. The answer is going to be different for each user, of course, but until you try for yourself you have to live vicariously though those who have..............

[@nc3826]

Extended Range Electric Vehicles=Serial PHEV.... and conventional parallel PHEVs all function differently.... Which makes the subject extremely complex, for comparison purposes... "The answer is going to be different for each user, of course"... Is just a truism for any question...

[@Smidge204]

I feel Hybrids create an excuse for manufacturers and the general public to not take electrification seriously. Yes, there is a relatively small number of people and use cases where a hybrid is going to be extremely useful if not absolutely necessary, but if there is a hybrid version of a vehicle it will be in competition with the all-electric version of that vehicle. Then manufacturers will just push for everyone to buy the hybrid version because they make better margins on them and gets to sell all the maintenance that comes with combustion engines. EV development will slow because the demand is artificially, deliberately reduced. So in terms of maximum impact, I think it's better to let those relatively small number of use cases continue to be ICEVs and push BEVs to everyone else.

[@nc3826]

the perfect is the enemy of the good

[@dmunro9076]

Anyone towing anything should be keeping their speed under 60mph/100kmh because towing is inherently unsafe at high speeds. I've seen enough spectacular accidents as a result of light duty vehicles towing at high speeds, to know that at high speeds, the trailer will overpower the vehicle and result is often tragic. I really liked my Prius Prime for it's extreme efficiency and it's good performance as an EV, albeit with EV limited range. I would have liked it better with a ~20kwh battery and a 3 cylinder 1.3L Atkinson cycle engine and a smaller gas tank. In the three years I owned mine, I drove about 30% in pure EV mode and the rest was Hwy driving, and it's 1.8L 4 cylinder Atkinson cycle engine was extremely efficient on the Hwy. Unfortunately Toyota likes to argue that PHEVs like the Prius Prime is a better way to go than a pure EV because they argue that they can build ~8 Prius Primes with the same amount of Li-ion batteries as one pure EV...except that Toyota doesn't seem to have any intension of flooding the market with PHEVs and appears to market them in tiny numbers compared to their ICE vehicles, with even Hybrids being rare.

[@Matt-Ionman]

For me, it doesn't make sense to put 200kWh packs in a high volume vehicle, like a Suburban, Tahoe, or any pick-up truck. We've already seen how long it takes to charge some of these, so why not just do a 50kWh pack with a good sized motor and throw a 4cyl engine in it. You can do your commutes around town in all electric and then use the gas engine when towing or on road trips. Dumping all this raw material into 1 very inefficient vehicle doesn't make sense. Save full EVs for smaller vehicles with good efficiency and short recharge times.

[@nc3826]

Agreed, but there are far less complex and more efficient options, such as an integrated Free Piston Linear Motor/Generator, such as from Aquarius Engines, that could replace the 4cyl engine and a separate generator. Let's hope that Stellantis will go with something like this, if they offer a range extender In any of their BEVs. Just a thought.

[@ab-tf5fl]

That argument makes sense given the battery shortage we have today. But, in order to get the world off fossil fuels, batteries need to become far more cheap and plentiful than they current are. To the point where equipping every truck with a 200 kW battery pack becomes so cheap, there's no reason not to. Unfortunately, we are nowhere there yet. Hopefully, within the next 20 years, we get there.

[@lazziebardakos2956]

Mild hybrid is nothing but a fancy stop start system.

[@ArielBatista]

In my view only Hybrid are or should be for trucks. And if you need to extend the range then something like the e-power from Nissan with a plugin setup. No real reason for cars to be anything other than EVs.

[@nc3826]

e-power from Nissan does not offer a plugin setup....and It is not offered in North America....

[@lesliecarter4295]

Hydrogen range extender’s are being advocated in Europe for cold weather and towing.

[@lancelacey]

2025 ramcharger is gonna be perfect for you….

[@technologyandsociety21C]

I think PHEVs are the worst of both worlds. Too much complexity. Too much weight. Not good at being an EV. Not good at being an ICE vehicle. Questionable environmental impact.

[@fjalics]

The range extender EV truck has no future, though you're not wrong about today. If they gave the range extender 100 or 150 mile EV range today, I can see it, but in the future, we will have way more chargers, and then the handful of people who really tow frequently will just get something that can do it, and there will be pickups that can to 200 or 250 miles with a heavy load. Why? Cause eventually getting gas will become a problem. It hasn't happened yet. It will happen in Norway first.

[@nc3826]

The perfect is the enemy of the good

[@JR-mc1rn]

In the United States, the only future for electric trucks is the range extender. I love electric power, but I am not going to pay 80,000 plus for a truck that gets less than 300 miles of range and possibly less than 100 miles when towing or in cold conditions. Rather than a huge heavy 130 kWh battery, A smaller 50 kWh battery providing 50-100 miles of range with a small efficient range extender whose sole purpose is to keep the battery charged is the only way to go for a truck. Those who disagree and want no range extender are being driven by ideological hatred for internal combustion engines, or simply lack common sense. But I guess if one has enough money he can afford to have two trucks! (One for local use and virtue signaling) and one with a combustion engine for practical use…

[@fjalics]

@@JR-mc1rnFirst, this truck you want. Is it for sale, or a fantasy truck? Can anybody make a truck like you describe, for the price you describe, and make money doing it? If so, which model are we talking about? Second, the first mass market EV sold that I remember seeing was a Nissan Leaf with 75 mile range. Batteries are 10x cheaper than when that came out. We got our first EV pickup a year ago. Don't assume EV pickups won't improve in the next 5 years, and especially 10. Third, some people tow, but many don't tow far, or don't tow often. Put a charger at the boat dock. How far are you dragging the boat? Some really need to tow, and often. They will need vehicles designed to do that. The Tesla semi can go 500 miles at 80,000lbs. They will cost real money, and they will save a lot on fuel and maintenance.

[@nimeshpriyankara710]

Kyle conner i need to contact you as soon as possible