Do Resource Systems Slow Down Gameplay? | Game Design

[@ArcDragoon]

When people complain that a game like Yu-Gi-Oh! is too fast compared to Magic the Gathering. And the complaint is about resources, this complaint is not based on actual speed. It is based on how much a player can do on a single turn. When modern Yu-Gi-Oh! consistently has it where a starting player can end with a board of three monsters with several negates ready for their opponent, it very much makes the game unappealing to newer and returning players. This is where the game feels too fast. Yes, I know that two modern Yu-Gi-Oh! players can and will argue that there is a level of interaction between the two, and hence the speed of the game is relatively the same for both of them. But this is only an argument that can be made by veteran players who understand the complexity of the game at that level. New and returning players will unlikely have the capability to understand the game at that level. And that is what causes the frustration and feeling of "too fast paced". Compared to MTG, no matter the level of difficulty each player is at, it is not hard to understand and keep track of resources and what is actually happening in the game. The act of adding mana to one's mana pool allows their opponent to understand that something is happening that they may respond to. Rarely does someone add mana to their mana pool with the intent to not spend it. Yes, there are combo decks in MTG still that very much plays out like Yu-Gi-Oh!, but these are still so few in between that they do not take a wide margin of the variety of decks that get played. It is rare to have a player feel like they did not get a chance to play their cards and do something with them. MTG is more welcoming to its newer and returning players.

[@TheAOGS]

Every game needs to be processed, and every effect, every resource, and every special condition adds some amount of workload to all parties involved. By sheer virtue of needing to be managed, resources add layers of upkeep that slow down the rate at which information is processed. That being said a designer would be wise to ensure any time spent investing into resources is time well spent.

[@Draw5Move5]

Very true! This is part of the reason I see the earliest turns of Magic as kind of... tedious. Playing a land and passing doesn't really feel like playing to me, just a step I'm taking to be able to play my cool cards. That said, I also haven't played it much and play Yu-Gi-Oh far more often so I won't speak for how others feel about it and I might just be missing something haha.

[@MrGolibroda]

First 1-5 rounds are the most entertaining in MtG exactly because of managing resources. If anyone would be a millionaire in a day there wouldn't be real payoff in the game. People are focusing on goals (playing cool cards), not on adventure (managing resources), this is why they are "tired" of playing the game and want more after finishing. It's not the fault of the game.

[@ikejohnson5494]

I don’t think mana is meant to slow down the game, but balance cards around each other. As you brought up, magic had quick agro decks. These can often fill the board faster than Yugioh, but they are weaker. Yugioh has more restrictions on how many creatures can be put on the board in a single turn.

[@Draw5Move5]

Yep, and thanks for the comment! This is something I realize I should have clarified at the start of the video from some of the feedback I've gotten. Resource systems are first and foremost designed to balance, not slow, but I wanted to address that second point and see if that side effect was really the case. Mentioning that at the beginning would have cleared things up a bit and kept me focused over the course of the video. I will say, I think it's still probably easier to assemble a board in Yu-Gi-Oh than in Magic, at least in terms of how soon it can be done turn-wise, but if an aggro deck is managing it in Magic with only a few effects and cards in early turns, than it's certainly possible time-wise it's happening faster.

[@midshipman8654]

I mean, I dont see why it cant be both. It does facilitate a certain rising tempo. also, I would say “easier to balance” as in there is a more firm reference points between most cards in terms of effectuality to cost. while in yugioh, one format may have targeted destruction be good, while another its not as good.

[@Denetros]

@@midshipman8654yeah it does both. It controls the game by bringing in a cost for each action and by that it does slow down the gameplay

[@netdragonarchfiend3268]

I view Resources more as a way to balance game effects, not so much speed up or slow down game play. If everything had the same cost, people would have no incentive to play anything but the small pool of the most powerful effects.

[@Draw5Move5]

I can understand that. While I do think the cost, whatever it may be, of using an effect helps balance it, I also think there will always be a series of most efficiently costed and powerful effects people try to play, at least in meta focused environments. One of the joys of playing in less competitive gaming environments is to try out new and potentially less effective, but still pretty competent and fun options!

[@jaygardner6639]

That's because that's what it is. That's why so many games have a resource system YGO is the only game I know that refused to have one. And thats because it was never made with the intent to actually be played. Hear me out guys: Yugioh the card Game came about only after fans of the Yugioh Manga wanted more detail on a fictional Game called Duel Monsters was played in the comic. Yugioh the manga was about a boy who loved all kinds of games much like the creator. The game wasnt really explained when played because it qasnt meant to be it was just another obscure game played by the protagonist to serve as a conflict. After being continually asked about the game Kazuki was pressured into making the Yugioh Duelist manga which became the next chapter and sequel to the Yugioh manga where this card Game was brought as the central conflict for the stories. Too many games had gone by for the game to be changed to add resources or be balanced so Kazuki had to introduce elements in later chapters to make the game seem more "playable" because when originally designing the real life game that was based on his manga Bandai noticed it lacked sales to properly maintain a market and dropped the rights for it. That's when Konami stepped in bought the rights and worked with Kazuki to make it "more playable." None of these elements however have fixed the games core flaws and it continues to suffer from being a product of something that wasnt put much thought into other than further the plot of a really interesting story.

[@williamehrhardt918]

If you can immediately use the most powerful cards that's a very fast game speed. Your example is a clear example of the game being super fast.

[@kylem.7466]

@@jaygardner6639 Yugioh is the only card game you can think of that doesn't use a color based resource systems. Most Japanese tcgs, and even some from western countries, don't use that or other similar resources. A resource system can be more than one particular mechanic that's their to balance against the power of certain cards, not even to regulate game speed(though it will inherently affect it). Resources can also be in conjunction or different from a core resource system. In early ygo lifepoints were common used alongside discarding effects, your opponent own cards through other cards' effects, and overtime the graveyard and banished zone became more resources.

[@kylem.7466]

@@williamehrhardt918 Being able to use powerful effects quickly doesn't increase gamespeed if the mechanics of the cards and of the overall game still leads slower play overall. A game can be five turns in total but still feel like it took twenty due to various mechanics and card effects needing to be resolving. Hence the complaints of 1v1 solitaire, long games that don't feel satisfying, and low interaction between players.

[@DsdavisGaming]

It seems to me, a lot of the confusion or various contradicting arguments people have regarding the speed of various card games boils down to lack of "DEFINED" terns such as; what even is speed in a card game? You could say that speed is the amount of time in seconds until completion of the round, or the amount of turns, or the amount of cards played per match, or how long until more than "x" number of cards are played. I personally would define speed as the number of cards played in a turn so in terms of YGO vs MTG, YGO would be much faster. A single YGO deck could play 100 cards in their first turn, and if it weren't for the modern problem solving text, we would see potentially thousands of moves in a turn since loops would be a large part of many engines if allowed, but of course as the number of moves goes up, so does the amount of time until the round ends, so in a sense it gets "slower" if you use a different definition. A resource system adds a hard limit to the game that unless bypassed or circumvented, acts as a default ceiling or standard that decks are measured against. While YGO lacking this restraint could potentially have an infinite number of plays possible, its other restrictions make this impossible, but still allow for more ways of interacting with the game-state.

[@fearanarchy]

Somebody paid attention in How to Write a Scientific Paper. Good work. Very few seem to grasp the formatting and presentation for a good statement.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

Even looking at something as simple as poker dodges the question. A round can be played in 5 minutes or way way longer depending on how the players play.

[@N12015]

I think there's 2 criterias who determine the speed of the game: The amount of turns of similar required to win the game, and the amount of plays you can make per turn. YGO tends to be won on turn 2 to 5 and that considers each player, and without bans the answer is literally the first turn you have. That being said YGO does have a resource: Amount of summons. The problem is that those have inflated to ridiculous levels.

[@midshipman8654]

I think hundreds in a first turn is a stretch. Even card rotation heavy decks dont go that high. its way more common to see 10’s even in higher draw decks.

[@sapolsaikrasun2270]

@@midshipman8654yes. Competitive decks are in the 10s but meme decks can go into the 100 and even do infinite loop if the goal of the deck wasn't to go for game. Still, even if it wasn't actually 100 cards, it feels like that for some people to certain decks.

[@Groundlord]

Yu-Gi-Oh is definitely a faster game than Magic, but the lack of a resource system is only part of that (albeit a pretty large part). The other main part is that the "limits" and "restrictions" on how fast you can achieve a winning game state in YGO really aren't that strict; most of the time the only restriction on it is "Do you have Cards A, B, and C in your hand? If no, can you use what's in your hand to get A, B, and/or C?" The extra time and steps needed for a resource-based game also give the other player more chances to intervene and put a stop to your strategy. I can say from experience that playing a game and having your opponent assemble a board strong enough to kill you ten times over on the very first turn of the match really doesn't make you want to keep playing the game. While you're exactly right in that players will try to find ways to cheat in their win conditions regardless of what specific game they're playing, how easy it is to do that varies drastically between games. It's a lot easier to cheat in a bunch of Blue Eyes White Dragons than it is to cheat in _Emrakul, the Aeons Torn._

[@jmanwild87]

Magic the gathering in a well balanced meta has fast decks that try to win early and lose late decks that whether the storm and win late and decks in between. yugioh's lax limitations means that decks have a much higher card velocity and a much lower variation in the amount of turns a game takes. making the game feel much faster even if those turns take ,uch longer. Magic does have formats that play like yugioh but they can still regularly go long

[@emmakristoffersen8550]

While a blanket statement of "Resource systems slow games down" is false, slowing the game down is one of the three main goals of Magic's mana system. (Deck Variety, Variance and Game Pacing). The mana system paces the game by gating powerful effects to the later parts of the game, and it slows the game in this way, rather than by the costs themselves. Comparing Magic's resource system to those of video games is a false equivalence, magic games are separate, and don't affect each other, but in video games, you deal with expended MP during your next battles. Their design goals are not to slow the battles down. Chrono Trigger's system incentivize players to use weaker moves where it's possible, to expend less MP and need to heal less frequently. Pokemon's PP system encourages/forces players to vary which moves they use, to avoid running out of PP. This is admittedly a nitpick, but 4 turns is in no way equivalent to 7 turns, it is almost twice as many turns.

[@Draw5Move5]

Thanks for the comments and criticisms, Emma! They're appreciated in helping me improve and grow the videos and the channel itself. I wasn't aware of that intent from Magic's designers, it's a good thing to know for the future. Personally, I saw the time over which you're using your resources in Chrono Trigger and Pokemon as similar to a single game in a TCG, but I can definitely see your point of view and agree with it. I was thinking of this with my Yu-Gi-Oh player brain, where you're trying to stave off the inevitable loss of all your resources by the end, rather than how it works in TCG like Magic, where your resource that allows you to play cards naturally replenishes every turn. This wasn't a good comparison, and I'll work on improving that in the future. Also, completely true, 4 is almost twice 7 and I have no idea how I allowed that to fly in editing - I assume it's because it was convenient for what I was saying and the point I was trying to make, but that means I let my personal bias impact scripting, which is something I'm trying to temper in future videos.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

Yes, 7 turns is more than 4 turns, but how long does one of those turns take, how many actions are done. If the first 2 turns only involve each player putting down a single card and ending their turn and the one after that playing single weak monsters, that might go faster than a single turn in a game that starts out with 4+ cards being played on each side.

[@JohnSchneider-SocksofGranduer]

I thinks it's also incorrect to state that Yu-gi-oh doesn't have a resource system. Cards in hand are a resource system that both games use to manage the pace of the game. They also both have life totals as well, that are used to manage the pace of the game.

[@guksungan1267]

@@Draw5Move5 Happy to see your open mind for improving your content. I also felt the Yu-Gi-Oh bias in the video, but that is also what drew (pun intended) me into this video. I think one suggestion I have is to delve in the games to give a fair comparison. Your voice and Yu-Gi-Oh background is a strength of your channel, but on the other hand the design videos give me the impression that you have the breadth of knowledge to utilize your strength into. The premise is great, and I think with more time (or other videos I will have to catch up to) you can even open up the minds of players who only play one TCG. Cheers

[@TDMicrodork]

Yugioh is weird in it has a resource system in a way, but it never worked. Tributing in this case made it so you had to sac a card or two but historically very few cards were that good for more than one tribute. Just too easy to get rid of creatures in yugioh. Light and darkness dragon was the only creature made that made tributing worth it but was abandoned for extra deck mechanics. I know true draco but they allowed you to cheat the summon and gave protection. Also magic seems to have a better causal seen. Where in yugioh i mostly faced former meta decks or almost meta decks. I can almost get an idea of the meta just based on what "causal decks" are playing. I seem to face a lot more noncompetitive stuff in mtg.

[@yourMoonstone]

I LOVE THIS. HOW DID I NOT FIND THIS EARLIER!!! Thank you for this!! Finding articulate card game design insight is nearly impossible outside of a few GDC things. Trying to make a card game has been impossible because there's no one talking to each other outside of their insular fan communities. No greater dev insight outside of MaRo's columns. Thank you!! Gonna binge through the whole channel. Absolutely agree with this too. I think a lot of it comes down to volume of decisions vs amount of possible cards/moves. The resource system definitely isn't what makes things slow.

[@Draw5Move5]

Glad to be of help! I've heard a little from subscribers that there isn't a good amount of content on card game design in easy to access places, so I'm glad I can provide that. And yes, that's basically it: whether it's a resource like mana in MTG or more arbitrary limitations like zones, once per turn restrictions, and summon limitations in Yu-Gi-Oh!, the best cards available tend to get around these limits and put a lot of decisions on the player. Even entry play for new players can be really complex, which slows down the games immensely!

[@PaulGaither]

You re telling me. I just found this today, almost three years later.

[@michaelturner2806]

2:03 This is definitely a me problem but I had a physical reaction when the colors were mentioned out of WUBRG order. You know you're really deep into a card game when...

[@colaocha1115]

There are ways in which the different systems in Yugioh and Magic cause different gameplay due to their differing resource systems. Most Yugioh decks either do more plays in their first turn compared to their later turns, whereas in Magic most decks do most of their plays in later turns. Standard Magic is a good bit slower than Advanced Yugioh, but a better comparison can be made between Legacy and Advanced in terms of format speed. Generally in Legacy Magic, a Midrange or Tempo deck takes about 3 actions (Counting playing lands and spells, attacking and blocking, and abilities that use the stack), between their first turn and the opponent's turn after and maybe about 7 between the start of turn 3 and the start of turn 4 and then the amount of actions starts to slowly decrease, and the game is likely actually finished by their 5th turn against another midrange/tempo deck. A midrange deck in Advanced Yugioh can perform 7 actions turn one and maybe 3 on their opponent's turn 1. Then perform a similar number of actions turn 2, which will either try to end the game or remove what their opponent has developed. The game likely actually finishes by their 3rd turn. The games take up a similar amount of actions, so in terms of time the games are a similar speed, but the Yugioh game is much faster out of the gates and finishes about 1.66x as early in terms of turns

[@Draw5Move5]

Yup, I've talked about this in some other comments. YGO's early game is basically just the first turn, whereas in MTG's Legacy (and from what I've been told, Modern and Standard) the early game acts as the first few turns as both players ramp, set up for later, and prepare to start swinging. Cumulatively, the actions in both games' early game is about the same per player, and the amount of minutes they take combined is about equal, but the turns do skew to YGO being faster.

[@jaygardner6639]

@@Draw5Move5 not completely true with some Decks Sneak Attack (a legacy deck) wins FTK most cases similar to the nonsense YGO does in every single one of its Metas.

[@Ninjamanhammer]

@@jaygardner6639 Sneak attack often wont win turn 1. Charbelcher would be a better example.

[@revimfadli4666]

Then add Flesh and Blood's resource system to the mix, and the whole thing becomes even more nuanced

[@damienthonk1506]

@@revimfadli4666 slower ≠ better in all cases

[@5y9h3r]

“Cut out the part that make it slow and it’s almost as fast” XD Bloody Brilliant XD

[@Serjohn]

Draw 5 move 5, a show where we draw 5 connections and move to 5 conclusion. thats marketing for you right there homie

[@lolmonkyboi]

Excellently put together and well written video as always, keep it up!

[@Draw5Move5]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!

[@aruretheincomprehensible20]

I think using turn counts as a measure of a game's speed is a poor method for determining a game's speed because of how different decks can be. You can have control decks that take 10+ turns to win just as you can have aggro decks that win on turn 4, and the specifics of the game doesn't necessarily contribute to how many turns the game lasts. The difference in perception of the speed of Magic and Yu Gi Oh has more to do with how Magic's resource system and Yu Gi Oh's lack of a resource system affect the qualitative pacing of the game. With Magic, you're ramping up to reaching more and more powerful threats, whether you're ramping into your aggro finishers, your control win conditions, your big midrange beaters, or the threat of your game-winning combo, whereas in Yu Gi Oh you get to pull off your strategy from the moment you enter the game. An analog to cars is useful here: Yu Gi Oh lets you go from 0 to 60 mph in a turn or two, while Magic takes some time to reach 60 mph. The benefit for Yu Gi Oh is the excitement of going so fast so quickly and immediately see and feel how fast you're going, but car owners know that the time it takes to slowly reach that speed doesn't feel as fast but also doesn't put as much stress on the car's components.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

mtg´s pace is one of the aspects that allow for agrro/control/combo ttiad to exist. Also in yugioh decks are samey, a mix of control/combo, all special summoning and tutoring and reanimating. the other thing to consider is that time each turn takes, often resulting in actual downtime for the off turn player. even if you have interaction you had 1 play and the opponent had 10.

[@victort.2583]

I think resource systems definitely affect gameplay speed, though there's almost certainly more nuance to the question than many would think. Conceptually, any game controlled by a resource system should play faster if the resource is removed, indicating resources have some impact on game speed - but this doesn't tell us much. That said, YGO probably feels like a game that's faster paced than MTG, possibly because of its higher complexity. In Magic, games might last only a few turns (e.g., Modern Burn might win by its 3rd turn, the 5th turn total), but it's often more straightforward or predictable about it (playing a hasty creature and a few damage spells each turn), while each turn in YGO might have wilder swings (e.g., turn 1 Crystal Wing is exciting, but not necessarily game-winning). Considering how several decks have the ability to play dramatic, flashy combos (something that isn't as visible in Magic), and that some decks are able to churn out boss monsters (that are portrayed in the anime as particularly difficult to summon), probably help Yu-Gi-Oh appear much faster paced. Additionally, YGO gameplay isn't single-player - even if you have access to the most explosive, exciting plays possible, your opponent does, too, and the back-and-forth here means the game isn't as solitaire as some might claim. I'd like to suggest "cards used [per turn]" as one possible "axis" of gameplay speed - a deck that lets you search out and play more cards would likely appear faster to someone unfamiliar with the game. The variety of search cards, combo enablers, extenders, and Extra Deck monsters that YGO players can use all in one turn will likely make the game look fast, no matter how many turns it takes for the game to finish.

[@Draw5Move5]

I can agree on a lot of this. A game with a resource system plays faster if the need for that resource is removed, while games without them in the first place like Yu-Gi-Oh! counteract this with ruling, zoning, and restrictions on the cards themselves. It's certainly a more complicated way of doing it, and it does make the game look flashy, but like you said, everyone (if they can afford them, but that's a separate issue) has access to those strategies, allowing for back and forth swings and huge haymakers to equalize boards when things get too crazy. On the "Cards played per turn" side, I definitely agree that the ability to play a lot of cards in a turn makes the game appear faster, even if it isn't functionally. This is why a lot of modern Yu-Gi-Oh design makes use of hard once-per-turn effects (and why Problem Solving Card Text is so helpful), meaning no matter how many copies of a card you put on the board, you can only use the effect of a card with its name once per turn. While all these hard once per turns can chain together into powerful end boards, there's still a limit to how much you can do, and interacting at the right points can stop some of those strings. The game will always look fast, but in practice, the speed tops out somewhere.

[@victort.2583]

@@Draw5Move5 Wow, thanks for responding! I really do appreciate your insights and explanations on my thoughts. Yu-Gi-Oh does make use of lots of features to keep the game manageable without "tapping" into a resource system. It's hard to make an absolute measure of "gameplay speed" that accounts for everything and applies to all games universally, so telling someone "YGO is so much faster than MTG" is almost certainly misleading, possibly even outright wrong. Some people might say, "YGO's faster because you can play your boss monster the first turn of the game," while others could think, "YGO's so slow because its combos use so many cards and so much time," or "YGO's speed is unremarkable because games last an average number of turns." All of them make sense, but each one has labelled YGO differently because they interpret speed differently - it becomes harder to establish clarity on what makes a game "fast," and it can be awkward trying to understand what someone means when they just say "YGO is fast" or "How fast is YGO?" This is all ignoring that casual-vs-competitive "average game" mentioned in the video. Personally, I do think YGO is "faster," because of its endboards tend to be established relatively easily, and my understanding on TCG speed comes from "doing more stuff in a turn = faster." If you don't mind my asking, even though YGO's speed has a limit, do you think it can be compared to MTG, and if so, where do you think it lands relative to MTG? On an unrelated note, YES, card games are expensive! Fetchlands in MTG, Borreload Savage Dragon in YGO, Computer Search in Pokemon... okay, not everyone has /literal/ equal access to the cards, but it'd be really nice if we did. I think YGO actually does reprints really well (so does Pokemon, but theirs is geared towards their rotating Standard format), but it's still disappointing that some of the game staples can command such high prices.

[@Draw5Move5]

Of course! Sometimes the comments can be a bit long, but I do my best to get to everyone - the point of these videos is for them to be informative and foster discussion, so I do my best to actively encourage that. At the end of the day, I think YGO definitely *feels* a bit faster than the average game of Standard or Modern in MTG, though I haven't played either of those formats to really have a good idea. Like you said, you're playing more cards a turn which, on average, means you're playing faster. They're definitely comparable - MTG and YGO time rules for tournament matches are only off by ten minutes, and the fact that the early turns in MTG (from what I've seen at least) tend to consist of a few land drops, casting one spell a turn, and maybe taking a small swing at the opponent, lead me to believe they're pretty close. If you add up the cards per player in the "early game" in MTG, the first few turns, and then compare it to each player's cards used in the first turn in YGO, the amount of cards played is similar. YGO does it all at once, MTG draws it out, and both games kind of lack a mid game at this moment in time from what I've been told on the MTG side.

[@jaygardner6639]

I disagree with your complexity comment. Yugioh has more play Complexity while MtG has more Strategic Complexity. In yugioh cards ever really can and will do the thing stated, in YGO cards combo more frequently but dont have as many Interactions, triggers and things to take into account. While magic cares far more about the board state of all players if you want a case in point look at Lorwyn Standard as s design example if the most complexity we've ever had. Yugioh has never even come close to that level of depth because their pieces are so easy to play and in most cases the "cost" of a card is turned into their advantage look at Lightsworn and Dark Worlds for examples.

[@sadlytemporary4143]

I like both games, but coming from MTG, I love how your example of its complexity is Modern Burn: the deck that gets mocked for being straightforward as hell.

[@pumkinswift8263]

As a Magic player, I'm offended that you listed the colors in an order that isnt wubrg. It's so ingrained into me at this point t

[@IncandescentCrowvus]

Yugioh player that defends it quite regularly and I have a lot of fun playing it Yugioh is fast in terms of “turns played” but that 2 turn game was 40 minutes long lol Imagine like tearlaments all gas vs snake eyes all gas, that game can go for a bit and both sides playing around hand traps

[@Scoop_Phase]

A lot of yugioh design has resources and other stipulations built into certain cards and archetypes. There are cards that can start a full combo on turn 1 but at the cost of a normal summon and a discard from hand and those resources invested can be at risk of being interrupted by a hand trap. More modern combo decks have multiple named cards with hard once per turn effects accessible very early on like drytron and tearalament, where the amount of gas available on your turn is dictated by how many effects have and haven’t been used

[@goncaloferreira6429]

9:05 Slowing down the game is not the primary objective of the mana system, as many other have already pointed out in the comments. The mana system is a great system that manyother game have reused. It allows for deck and games diversity and is the basis of the trading aspect of the game It also is tied to varience and luck as being part of the game, making match ups not always playing out the predicted way. All tcgs have varience but Magic sure has embraced it has part of its design philosofy. Design intent: Maro often talks about the effect of escalation: games of magic often grow from boring to amazing, from one play a turn to multiple a turn or very impactfull ones. That is created by the growth of you mana pool.

[@Draw5Move5]

Thanks for the comments, Gonçalo! They're greatly appreciated. I'll answer them individually since that's how you wrote them. Yes, and to that point I realize I should have mentioned that in the video lol. It wasn't something I thought to say, and the script probably should have gone through another revision to catch things like that. I wanted to explore if there was a side effect of slowing games down for having a resource system, as that's the comment I've heard somewhat often, but I didn't really present it as a side effect when that was my intention. I'm not sure I'd say the mana system itself is responsible for creating deck diversity, but that may be because of my lack of experience with Magic. I see the effects on the cards and how they all interact as more of the factor that creates diversity in a game (and the disparity in power between these effects and decks as what shrinks diversity). I can definitely see and appreciate the fact that the mana system is designed to ramp up the interactions over time though - I like being able to play and interact right out of the gate, which is something rather unique to Yu-Gi-Oh, but I can appreciate that ramp up as buildup works great in a lot of scenarios for enhancing fun and excitement (like in books, film, and even music).

[@Ninjamanhammer]

@@Draw5Move5 The mana system creates diversity because you are limited in the colors you can play, creating fewer decks that look the same and fewer cards that go in every deck.

[@jk2782]

I'm not going to rag on any one game, you've mentioned, I'm just going to grump on about some of your points, because I think you have some things right but also some things wrong. Yugioh takes fewer turns, that's just a fact. A control deck only took 10 turns to grind down the enemy to victory and you say that's a long game, in magic it's long for a regular game, but it wouldn't be unlikely for control in MTG to take up to 15 turns, not including mana screw or mana flood. The turns may be shorter but there's more of them. Every game has a resource system, even yugioh. The resources are your cards in hand and your summon limit. It's just that every deck avoids it one way or another. Special summons on top of special summons on top of other special summons all work together to trigger their special abilities and then link/xyz/whatever other summons that start the combo over again. In magic, you can't get around the need for mana. Some cards speed up the gain of mana, sure, but very few remove the need entirely, and those are considered to be the broken cards. Chrono trigger has MP, yes, but we're talking about combat duration. That has nothing to do with the duration of the game in total. You'd have to include only combat duration with/without MP use. With Pokemon and their pp, stronger moves have less pp because you shouldn't use them as much. You can't just fireblast through enemies because you have a limit. Just because you can buy berries and ppups doesn't mean you don't have to worry about pp, you've artificially increased your pp, but you might use that money on healing items or pokeballs instead.

[@michaelturner2806]

I haven't played many card games, but I have picked up Epic Card Game, which is like an mtg-lite with no resource cards, a single resource you get at the start and end of your turn, and cards that either cost this resource or not. So far, apart from the simplified mechanics, it feels a lot like jumping straight to Turn 6 in a game of Magic and proceeding full speed from there.

[@petersmythe6462]

Things that make Yu-Gi-Oh fast: 1. You can draw a full hand of spells and play everything immediately. 2. You'll never draw a land. 3. There are a lot of card effects that let you summon things from the graveyard and use it like a second hand.

[@AKPhilly]

I wasted a lot of my childhood playing yugioh before moving on to MTG and man mtg is the clearly superior game. Seeing what yugioh has turned into nowadays is depressing.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

In general I would say yes and no. It depends on how many rounds and how many cards a game expects one to play during a match and how that is reflected in the mechanics. Resources usually get build up during a match, so the power scaling during a match is a factor. Late game will include more resource intensive (and thus stronger) cards than early game. And a game without resources tend to have other ways to limit strong cards from being played too early. And they tend to have longer turns than resource-based games, where the early turns often consist of only playing a single card.

[@zebjensen4251]

Basically how I see it is that using a resource system should be used to provent people from playing there best cards, units or abilities at the start. Or make the cost no worth using without doing risk assessment. In digimon there is a memory gauge that swings from one side to the other. The more memory you spend the more your opponent has. This unless your playing with someone who takes several minutes to do anything. Turns can take place rather quickly and there is little down time.

[@dudono1744]

What prevents big turn 1 plays is the notion of ramp. You can technically have a ressource that doesn't increase over time.

[@albertoroche7168]

I highly recommend looking at the Dragon Ball Super Card Game as an example of a resource game that can be quick. Many current decks are able to finish games within 5 minutes and it's mainly due to the big difference in how players gain energy: every card in your deck can be used in multiple sections of the game. Each card can be used as energy (the equivalent of Mana from MTG) so there's usually no turn where you don't get to increase your resource pool. On top of this, certain cards can be used to increase attack and defense power when in combat. Most decks have something to do every turn so it allows players to get to the point and finish the game as quickly as possible.

[@revimfadli4666]

Also like many other Duel Masters-inspired TCGs with multiuse cards?

[@alessandroalafriz8162]

What song is this? Its beautiful

[@cristianDominguez314]

Yugioh player here. YES. The answer is YES. However, yugioh has an abundance of combo based strategies where everything goes brrr. I don't think there's any other card game with with the capacity to run a plethora of long combos with advanced board states on a regular basis, with or without a mana system.

[@danielcornwall1585]

Do you think he listed the colours in the wrong order to fuck with us?

[@CensoredHarbor]

I like that your perspective is one drawn from primarily Yu Gi Oh- I'm an MTG nerd, and it's valuable to hear reasons why one might prefer/also enjoy Yu Gi Oh. I like that this video serves as a counterargument to Yu Gi Oh being luck based and way too 'fast'. Great video!

[@confidentinterval3603]

Good video but I got triggered when WUBRG was out of order even though you don't play magic lol

[@mosskull7162]

As you said, there is more than the superficial analysis of "yu-gi-oh has not mana system then is faster", and you made a great work showing it. But Yu-gi-oh *is* faster than Magic. We can argue that it is because mana system or not, but it is faster; I'm understanding faster in the way you can do all the optimal plays you want with the best decks in the first turns. Salamangreat and Sky striker in my opinion were bad examples (from this perspective) because you can use all their arsenal first two turns, Altergeist is indeed a little bit slower because, in average you need to reach until turn 3 for using _all_ its arsenal. The vastly majority of top decks from one and a half year ago until now, *not include cards that would impact the state board until 3 turns later* let sink that a while before prolonging this useless discussions... that assertion is more or less equivalent to only use cards with a cost of 3 (supposing as you said that ALL best decks of standard format has a *consistent* way to cheat and add 1 mana additional for first turn) or less. In this sense there is not way to deny that yugioh is faster than MTG. In real time speed, yeah, I think all you said is on point, and there is a misconception that yugioh games last 5 minutes in average. If this was your perspective for "faster" definitively we cannot say yu gi oh is faster. Friends who play magic have told me over and over that magic is slower (in this time perspective) made me think their rounds were a lot longer.

[@snakemont]

Thank you so much!

[@austinchuilli3652]

Honestly I think that when taking about game length we should analyze it by turns. In most magic formats the game is on average 6-10 turns. Where as in yugioh from my experiences very rarely last more than 5 turns but it does happen. I say this as yugiohs turns individually tend to take longer than in magic which brings them to the same length of time.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

time should be the major objective factor here, as players feel is often misleading

[@Draw5Move5]

Thanks for the comment, Austin! The turn count can sometimes be misleading as a representation of how long a game has been going, which is the only reason I don't like it as much. Yu-Gi-Oh and some more crazy forms of Magic like Commander have the potential to go on 15 minute turns just due to the sheer length of combos and the changes that can happen along the way, as you've said. It brings up the larger question of how healthy the game is if our turns are lasting that long, but that's a separate issue for another day.

[@voluntarism335]

@@goncaloferreira6429 no the objective factor is turns, yugioh is a flawed game

[@Ninjamanhammer]

@@Draw5Move5 Legacy and Vintage can have 15 minute turns too. Modern used to as well before Second Sunrise got banned.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

Time is the onlu objective way to measure if the game is fast or not. The rest is opinion and feel of the players and spectators. The mana system locks the more impactfull effects out of the first turns in many and player start with limited action per turn. In yugioh, and this is what Magic player often complain about Yugioh, the game stars with a completely different pace, with multiple actions per turn and often very long turns with no interaction. that is only possible because the game lacks more severe base rules that balance it in another ways. As an old yugioh player i would also say that the game is very different from what is once was. speciall summoning has become too common and deck searching and the use of cards in graveyard and the extra deck are also too prevalent instead of deck types speciallizations.

[@Draw5Move5]

I also think time is the best way to measure games. Turns are arbitrary and vary wildly from deck to deck and game to game. Some turns are long, some short, and a lot of that depends on what decks sit down at the table to play each other. I can definitely agree that the game has changed a lot since the old days. Old Yu-Gi-Oh looks a lot like Magic as I understand it, as each player builds resources. There were a lot less cohesive strategies with main gameplans though in the very old days - we didn't really see dedicated strategies that weren't just a pile of generically good cards until a few years in, during and after the GX era. Nowadays, you're right, special summoning is a lot more prevalent (and the goal of a lot of design seems to be to break the rules by giving as many special summons as possible, which is a separate discussion), but there *are* still decks that only do so a little to get themselves set up or gain incremental advantage and that have been competitively viable, like Altergeist and Sky Striker.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

@@Draw5Move5 The way i see it a good game, like Mtg has room for all types of decks and strategies. In my opinion The archtype design philosophy of yugioh and most japanse tcgs is reductive. I could be part of the game but not the all the game and the main way new cards and "metas" are though out. Even if there are some more controlly strategies, like the examples you gave, are more of an exception and, as far as my knowlege goes, still based around archtypes. On the changes over time in yugioh: again it is a japanse thing, prefering fast paced games with focus on power level/high impact cards with multiple effects and while somewhat based on synergy, that synegy is archtype based and thus made for the player, reducing the choices he/she has to make, a problem already present due to the size of the main deck and the use of the extra deck- all that and the abuse of special summoning and decj searches all lead to super consistent decks. Mtg changed over time in the same way but is much closer to the original vision that yugioh. Apologies for the bad writting. Time is short and english is not my first language.

[@MansMan42069]

10 1-minute turns 1 10-minute turn Same same.

[@Big_Dai]

Is this a resource system video.. or a "how to play" for Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh? There are more systems out there than these 2 designs..

[@petersmythe6462]

Not any card can be played at any time in Yu-Gi-Oh. If you just build a deck of beat stick monsters with no card effects, the soonest you're gonna summon a blue eyes is turn 3. And that's assuming you don't sacrifice on turn 2 to upgrade your existing beat stick but instead play a second 4 star beat stick. If you're committed to summoning a 6 star on turn 2, and not sacrificing it on move 3, then it'll actually be turn 5 before your blue eyes is out. Probably why people don't like generic >6 star beat sticks with no easy way to special summon them.

[@petersmythe6462]

The things that make Yu-Gi-Oh fast are the spells, not the monsters.

[@guilo3605]

Just nitpicking, but even in standard monored can win in like 4 turns easily

[@GeargianoXG]

Resource systems are more about pacing to me. A Yu-Gi-Oh deck is at its strongest on the first turn since none of its resources (the cards) have been spent and it can go straight into its win condition. The only thing that might stop you is a bad hand or your opponent having enough interaction in their starting hand. A game with a resource you have to spend to play cards (and requires you to first gather it) makes your deck weaker in the beginning of the game since you don't have that many plays available yet. How long it takes to get to your deck's peak power depends on the game and deck, but the power will definitely go up Now, Yu-Gi-Oh could be slower depending on card design. For example if there was no way to special summon main deck monsters and every extra deck monster requires you to gather the materials over several turns and protecting them, a decks power level would be more of a wiggly line over time, rising if more monsters are on the field but going down if the extra deck monster summoned gets removed from the field somehow. It'd be a bit like if you had to discard lands in magic instead of just having to tap them. In opposite, you could make a game with a resource system be fast by starting you out with a high number of resources, but they do not recover snd once you run out, you're done. The challenge would be then to pace your usage of this resource yourself and not getting caught off guard by your opponent. But overall, I'd say no resource system leads to a quicker spike in a deck's power level which leads to games feeling faster

[@Vulcanfaux]

Well, in pokemons tcg, its possible to put out multiple energy in a single turn, 3 seems to be the average, also the main attackers everyone uses tend to only need 3 energy to attack. So yeah, its possible to get your attackers rolling in one turn in pokemon.

[@FaatiBomBom]

Nice video! Interesting stuff and really well put together. Subbed!

[@Draw5Move5]

Thank you, glad you enjoyed it!

[@maroindefinitlyhuman6857]

I want to try MTG, but sadly it isn't sold in my country nor do I have anyone to play with even if I had the cards😔

[@redlord4321]

cant get arena where you are?

[@maroindefinitlyhuman6857]

@@redlord4321 north Africa

[@redlord4321]

@@maroindefinitlyhuman6857 ya i was just wondering is it not available to you?

[@maroindefinitlyhuman6857]

@@redlord4321 I haven't tried arena but I don't think it would satisfy the thirst for the real card game.

[@redlord4321]

@@maroindefinitlyhuman6857 sure but it's something over nothing and you can get your feet wet for free

[@R055LE.1]

I'm from the future. Yu-Gi-Oh not having resource constraints are absolutely the reason it's so fast. There are other contributing factors, like no set rotation and power creep, but in modern times it's not unreasonable to play half your deck in 1 turn. In fact if you cannot setup your oppressive and consistent end board on turn 1, you'll likely lose.

[@kiraangle2823]

debatably pokemon tcg has energy that should slow down the game signifigantly, but in terms of practicality, players primarily use 3 prize card attackers that hit for almost a one hit knock out that charge up in 1-2 turns that lead to a finished game in about 6-7 turns. A resource system is only as functional as your ability to maintain the assumptions as true facts. You assume one energy per turn, one attack, but then dark/water/metal patch come out and do another one, you can use each up to however many you draw per turn, suddenly 2 became 5 and if you were inclined, becomes 13. max elixir can accelerate from the deck, 17, tapu koko and thunder mountain are prisms but both bring that number up to 19. suddenly 1 energy per turn became 19 for that first turn, and 1 for every turn after that. and thats without even touching the subject of rain dancers, which can accelerate every energy in your hand. pokemon is a very fast game because it breaks it's own rules. its debatably faster than yugioh if you play the deckout challenge.

[@Draw5Move5]

I know very little about the Pokemon TCG, but honestly that sounds about right, mostly because that's what ALL TCGs try to do haha. Part of pushing the boundaries of design tends to be pushing the rules and breaking things in ways they weren't meant to work, sometimes to less than fair results for the players. Zoodiac is a great example of this in Yu-Gi-Oh - the deck completely broke the way the XYZ mechanic was supposed to work, to the point that with the other cards at its disposal between its own options and outside support, the deck was meta defining for almost half a year until its best cards finally got banned.

[@Vulcanfaux]

Crazy to think what the extremes are. I'm usually happy if I can just get 3 energy out in a turn. Buts thats mostly cuz i like playing darkness decks. And the main attackers I use right now only need 3 to attack. I guess 6 if I wanna do the bonus effect for umbreon and darkrai.

[@PhilipMonsos]

The problem with having a mana system in a card game is the fact that you often need to fill a large portion of your deck with cards that are effectively useless. That always was and still is my biggest gripe with games like Magic or Pokemon. Having a large portion of my Magic deck contain cards that I just play without any thought really makes me not think much of it (the lands themselves). While in Yugioh, each card has it's own use and timing for a given scenario. I need to figure out when the right time to activate EVERY card in the deck. A counterpoint to what I've stated is that Magic often times have deck sizes that are larger than Yugioh's 60 card max so it makes up for having a lot of "dud" cards. I think of it like this Magic ramps up in power and resources, while Yugioh fizzles out as you lose card advantage. These days it's kinda like "which one do I feel like playing, today?", because I enjoy both just in different ways. These are just some thoughts that I've had being a long term Yugioh player (since about 2003 or so) and always thinking this when I saw Magic being played when I was younger and I do often still think about this while playing Magic today. Another mechanic that astounded me is that face-down cards (ie. traps and flip effects) aren't really a thing in Magic.

[@MaxMax-zc4or]

there are a few cards in mtg that use being face down as a mechanic, but it is a specific effect so it's not as common as I imaging it is in YuGiOh. Some games have attempted to fix the problem of having duds in your decks, like "force of will" where they put the mana cards in a different deck this also fixed the problem of getting too much or too little mana, also magic seems to have larger decks then YuGiOh.

[@Scoitol]

well in pokemon current format, energies have a lot of uses despite being a ressource, lot of cards discards energies to do something like draw or put damages on chosen pokemon, also most decks don't play more than 10 energies

[@r_valkyrie7635]

The thing I dislike most in Yugioh is that cards can have way too much effects.

[@Draw5Move5]

Sometimes they can be a bit like walls of text, yeah. The text box is also kind of tiny which doesn't make it easier.

[@admiralcasperr]

2:10 this is not the correct order for wubrg. Plz.

[@sylviadailey9126]

This is intriguing. I am the inverse of this guy. I have more experience with MTG. I know very little about Yu-Gi-Oh. I would like to give a more in depth explanation. Each mana color brings its own advantages to play, and that forms a play style. Their is a lot of variation on how fast the game goes. A game can even end quickly if one makes the most of what little mana they have in play. The two basic colors are red and blue. Red is the offensive color that plays faster. It is about summing cheap fast creatures and casting burn spells to deal lots of damage. They aim to beat the opponent quickly. The general term for an offensive deck is called an aggro deck. Blue is the defensive color that plays slower. It is about stalling the opponent and gaining extra cards. Then one eventually can get a big expensive return in the ndgame. Then they can win. The general term for a defensive deck is control. Between aggro and control, one can vary the pace of a game. The other three colors are something in between. A general name for a deck in between is called a midrange deck. White is a supportive color that uses healing and lots of cheap creatures. Black is a wierd color that deals with discard pile interactions. Now this video said that players want to skip ahead to the late game and use cards to do it. That actually only applies to some players, not all of them. There are cards that give extra mana, but they are mainly restricted to green. Green is the color to gain extra mana and use that mana to summon large expensive creature. Green is a prime example of a midrange color. It doesn't stall a lot nor does it use fast damage right away. Instead it rushes towards the endgame, with is something in between. This specific playtime is called ramp. Only those playing green are concerned with getting extra mana. This is not to say all three midrange colors are alike. Green and white are pretty similar as both have an affinity with creatures. Black totally opposes both of them. It is really good at removing creatures rather than making its own. Unlike green, it uses alternative resources, besides mana. It uses things like discard pile and player health. Unlike white, Black creatures are used less for support. They are more likely to be sacrifice victims to help form spells. Aggro, controll and midrange is a basic way to distinguish decks, and they can go on a one dimensional spectrum. However the five colors is more advanced and varied. They are put in a circle in a certain way. Each color is adjacent to similar colors and opposite different colors. Red and blue still oppose each other. The idea of green being focused on mana is referred to in the video. There are two major cards in the video, with are ramp cards. There is cultivation and Llanowar elves. Both of them are green cards. There is even the green mana symbol in the thumbnail. My top favorite color is blue. I find it fun to play the long game and outwit the opponent. My second favorite is black. I like how strange and versatile it is. Both colors are opposed to green. So I am especially aware that gaining extra mana is not the end all and be all. Blue opposes green, because it excels at spells as opposed to creatures. Every color has major weaknesses, in that they can't do what other colors do especially opposing colors. Green brings some strong advantages to the table, but that doesn't make it the best color. It has some glaring weaknesses. This is stuff that blue and black doesn't have to worry about. One is that out of all colors, green has the worst creature removal. Another is if thier own creatures get removed, they are basically screwed. Green is not that great in the spell department. Thier spells tend to be good at supporting creatures in some way. If there are no creatures, those spells won't do much good.

[@sylviadailey9126]

I know some about Yu-Gi-Oh. However it is very little. There are two things about basic Yu-Gi-Oh rules that I find wierd. One is that the numbers are really big. Maybe it is supposed to look impressive. Howevsr for me, it seems too much of a downside. It would be difficult to calculate. I prefer to have the single digit numbers in MTG. It is a lot more practice as it is easy to do the math in one's head. Another wierd thing about Yu-Gi-Oh is the lack of resource cards. This does seem fast. Yet when I look deeper there are other kinds of speed bumps. The video did mention some. I do know that the level system can work as a speed bump. High level creatures are more powerful, but they come at a price. Low level creatures can be summoned right away. Medium level creatures require one creature as a tribute. High level creatures require two tribute creatures. I think that is how that works. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I am a major noob. It is cool that this video talks about slower decks. That may be the Yu-Gi-Oh version of control decks. I have been watching the TV show on Netflix. It is the basic origional show. I picked that so it would be easier, and I won't get lost. The show seems really strange and outlandish at first. Then I get used to things. I know the basic rules well enough to follow the show okay. Later on I notice some things that is very familiar as a MTG player. One time Yugi and his friends get stuck in a cave. Then there was a character that uses a deck with a zombie undead theme. It is spooky. This deck is good at resurrecting creature cards from the graveyard and playing them as zombies. This is a lot like how black works in MTG. I know because I am a black player. I even had a pretty good Golgari (Black and green combo) deck a while back. That is really into using and resurrecting stuff from the graveyard. Today I watched an episode that played shortly after. Yuki has gained enough star chips, and he made it to the castle of Pegasus. Seto Kaiba block the way, so they have a duel. This fight is a shining example of a Yu-Gi-Oh fight that is slow. It really drags. This match is even three episodes long. That is long. The battle is slow, because Kaiba is deliberately stalling. This is really famiiar. I am a blue p,Ayer, and I enjoy control. Kaiba is essentially doing that. First he uses a genie with a lamp. The lamp protects the genie from damage. That stalls the game. Eventually Yu-Gi-Oh finds a way to get rid of the lamp and defeat the genie. Then Kaiba uses a clown with a virus. Yugi defeats the clown easily, but the virus infects his whole deck. Then Yugi can't use any creature except for weak ones. This stalls the game so much more. The fight drags on and on. Kaiba has a clever plan. He gradually gains Blue Eeyes White Dragon cards by drawing them, but he doesn't play them right away. He just accumulates them over time. Then in the late game Kaiba plays three Blue Eyes with a polymerization. This forms an ultimate Blue Eyes with thre heads. Then he tries to use it to finish off Yugi. The stalling was a means to the end of getting g to the ultimate creature. This is just was a I do as a control player in MTG. My first main deck was an Izzet deck (red blue combo). I use the deck to play the long game. My big creatures are dragons. That is similar. The blue eyes creature even has blue and white in its color scheme. The two colors form Azorious in MTG. This is the best pair for control and defense. It is a pair complelty opposite of red, which is the offensive color. When Kaiba summons his big creature, he laughs. I know what that feels like. I can go, "Ha! I have outfitted you and controlled you. Now I will crush you with my big guy. MWAHAHAHAH!!" Yugi eventually finds a way to win. Part of it is using decay to weaken the Blue Eyes. Another part is summoning a bunch of little brown puff balls. The puff balls are weak enough individually to bypass the virus. An individual is way to weak to fight any strong opponent. However as a huge group they effectively defend Yugi. That part is familiar. That is Selesnya (green white) shenanigans right there. My favorite pair in MTG is Izzet. Selena is the complete opposite. I find fighting against Selesnya annoying. This is really into putting a bunch of weak creatures. It can be hard to remove using spells, except for bord wipes. The brown puffballs even have green feet, and green is in Selesnya. Yugi could have won the fight. However Kaiba pulled a stunt by going to the edge of a ledge. Yugi refused to win, because he didn't want to risk Kaiba falling off and getting hurt. This is a complex moral issue, and I think Yuki made a big blunder. I did consider the issue. I figured out what to do. If I was in Yugi's position, I would show no restraint. Grandpa is too important to give up on. He is even worth sacrificing for. Even if Kaiba got hurt, it would be worth it. The stunt was really reckless. If Kaiba did get hurt, it would be his own fault. I found a solution. Yugi has defeating Pegasus as his ultimate goal. Beating Kaiba allowes Yugi entry into the caste, so he can encounter and defeat Pegasus. If Yugi actually wins, he can bring a lot of good for all the innocents in distress. He can save his Grandpa. He can use the award money to pay the doctors and save Joey's sister. Yugi can even save Kaiba's brother. A hero is typically willing to help others, even those they have no personal ties to. Kaiba wants to save his brother. That is why he challenged and fought Yugi in the first place. Yugi could saved the brother instead. Both Kaiba and Pesus would be hurt in the process, but it is worth it. There is more good than harm. So it is worth it. I think heros should be willing to make sacrifices when necessary. Extreme pacifism is not as good and moral as it may seem. Sometimes doing the right thing may cause harm on the side. It won't make people feel good about themselves. This is what I thought. I don't know how this story ends. I just got to keep watching.

[@josephcourtright8071]

@@sylviadailey9126 I'll be honest I didn't read all that. But I can explain the large numbers. They are not to look impressive. They are part of Japanese culture. Japanese currency always uses much higher numbers, similar to if we measured all our prices in pennies. As such a sandwich costing 1,500 yen is not unusual. So most of the old gambling games in the culture use chips that represent 100s as their smallest increments. In magic, the game was developed as a break from D&D campaigns and its very likely that you start with 20 LP because they had D20s laying around to track life.

[@GutsyTen42]

I'm shocked you don't have more subs. Such great content

[@fearanarchy]

MtG is 25 years old and keeps an archaic resource system alive. Not for throttle, but because it is the Secret Coke Formula. WotC has tried different games. They were not MtG so they did not take the lion's share. Therefore their innovations, updates, and changes can only apply if shoehorned into MtG. You do have lots of good points, but there is vast differences between Japanese games and US Games, their appeal, etc. And to quantify it is almost impossible without covering baked-in faults of the industry etc; CCGs need expandability and do not care if players notice throttling.

[@dragongrandmaster]

i have played an card game most units and spells had a count down rise of mythos/ kings and legends

[@skurai]

Good stuff 😊

[@nkosanaroy4993]

You said a lot of things but i still go on YGO pro and find every player having 3 minute turns where everything moves around at a dizzying rate

[@sonsai10]

This channel is great, I wold love to see you making more vids Comments are good for the yt algorithm

[@Cqlr-q4l]

Yuguioh was a pretty normal game until 2015-2018 and recently that they just idk what happens they just started to print crazy cards that don't have once per turn effects or that combo the hole engine in 1 play i mean back in the day you have cards like stratos that search a card for no cost making a plus 1 and if you had ways to loop it you could get more that 1 card but that never happened lol but suddenly since DR/spellboocks they started to print cards that do the whole combo in 1 turn with no cost like zoodiacs and now a days since they realeased token they just said fuck it let's see where this shit can get beacause modern cards don't even have restrictions anymore lol is such a crazy thing

[@masterblasterT47]

Does yugioh have decks that win by preventing the opponent from playing the game aka "doing anything"?

[@sethschott900]

Yes

[@haroldmosley1751]

That's actually predicted to be a big problem with the newest set coming out. Some of the cards coming out of it will be making it where a monster that says your opponent can't play on their turn can be summoned turn 1.

[@bejammin2000]

Your example of roar of the wind is lacking. You can totally get that out in the second or third turn. T1, land, Mana Rock. T2, Land, Mana Dork. T3, Land, BEAT STICK! You're just looking at lands, when it fact there's mana rocks and mana dorks and mana rituals.

[@wilagaton9627]

Great video!! Really insightful and well put together. To answer the question: No, I do not think that having a resource system slow down/speed up a game. As you have pointed out, YuGiOh does have a resource system, its just that it is not as traditional as Magic, but its still there. The thing that slow down/speed up games is more so the design philosophy of the game. YuGiOh plays more as a combo deck, which rewards you for putting pieces of your engine on the board faster. That is why YuGioh is predominantly played with Named Archetypes (like Madolche, Salamangreat, Six Samurai) rather than generic archetypes (like warrior, spellcaster, light attribute). Magic, on the other hand, plays more like a toolbox, where cards are designed to do a multitude of things, and can be put on other decks (e.g. Llanowar Elves are great in a RG Ramp deck, but can also be placed on a Elf Tribal deck). Also, 2:03, its WUBRG White, Blue, Black, Red, Green XD

[@Draw5Move5]

Wil, thanks, I'm glad you liked the video! Lol sorry, I'm fairly new to Magic so I didn't know about the WBBRG thing at the time XD. I will say, Yu-Gi-Oh isn't always combo heavy or even always archetype focused. While the Thunder Dragon decks that were prevalent last summer were named after one archetype, the whole deck was a mess of different cards, most of which weren't part of the aforementioned archetype - they just used Thunder as an additional end piece and combo enabler. Warrior mishmash decks have been around for a while thanks to Isolde, Two Tales of the Noble Knights, and plenty of slower control decks may have a small archetypal core (Guru Control) or lack one completely (Classic Stun decks), filling in with draw cards and generically good traps. Magic, from what I've learned and watched, can combo off just as hard in a lot of cases, and you could consider things like Elf Tribal to be an archetype in some respects.

[@wilagaton9627]

@@Draw5Move5 Yup. Again, very well said. But going back to whether or not Resource Systems slow down/speed up games, I go back to what I said: It doesn't matter if a game has a Resource System, its all about Design Philosophy. YuGiOh plays faster because they were designed to be played faster. It doesn't matter if the game has a traditional (mana-land in MtG), non-traditional (tribute/special summoning in YGO), or abstract (time like in Vanguard) resource system. A designer will exploit that system to have the game be played how they want it to be played. Whether or not that is fast or slow, it will be decided by the game designer :)

[@goncaloferreira6429]

@@wilagaton9627 Great answers. I would add that the game designer did his/her job well if both strategies, playing fast(agrro) or slow(combo/control) are all viable strategies with counterplay to them

[@thekittenfreakify]

Also your friends need to review yugioh the resource syste has always been monsters. They are what move the game state the most.

[@williamehrhardt918]

Yes, that's the entire point of having a resource system.

[@jaygardner6639]

Yea for real it’s basic game balance philosophy most people who aren’t idiots know games need a resource based system.

[@MansMan42069]

Magic: 10 1-minute turns Yugioh: 1 10-minute turn Same same.

[@endtimestcg5146]

Thank you so much for this Vid!

[@wheretoplaygames]

So this is less of a strategy video and more of a “proving magic players wrong”video…

[@TheoJay615]

Game is as fast as the developers make it.

[@phorchybug3286]

Slow buildup is one thing, I just don't like needing specific cards just to play my other cards.

[@legendsofcruxis976]

very great video!

[@Draw5Move5]

Thank you!

[@Upload-video-terserah-gue]

No , its ballance with mana sistem or resource sistem .

[@duelistacademy2014]

I also feel a lot of players mistake a turn count with the speed of a game. Turn 4 in yugioh a lot more has happen then in a game of magic etc. But loads of back and forth still happens as yugioh is a more condensed game.

[@MechanizedMinionMTG]

Do resource systems slow down a game, to an extent they do. Are there ways to mitigate the resource system limitation to speed up a deck for these games despite that fact, yes. Doing so is a choice, and has it's own cost. Resource systems shouldn't be implemented to slow down, but rather to force interesting choices. Let's take a look at some classic staple Yugioh Card, Pot of Greed lets you draw 2 cards at the cost of 1 card, netting you +1 cards overall. It cost you no resources of any kind and as far as I'm aware is banned in competitive play. MTG doesn't have a comparable card because they all have costs. It has cards that allow you to draw extra cards, but all of those cards required a set number of resources to play the card and gain the benefit. Now some cards as you pointed out in your video have effects that trigger without paying a cost once the card exists on the field. This is true, but you still had to pay a cost to get it out there in the first place. Having a resource system is about balancing cards more than anything. The more ways you can spend resources the more fine tuning you can apply to card power balance.

[@Raigan_Avalon]

The closest you get to that in MTG is Gitaxian Probe, which let's you draw 1 and look at your opponents hand at no mana cost. Though it cost you 2 life.

[@dudono1744]

Yup, that's the difference between pot of greed and ancestral recall, you can't spam recalls turn 1.

[@razzendahcuben]

Good video but you need to bump up the voice audio.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

@@UCPPLBC-my4mYkWxeeVHtmUQ It was an interesting topic for a video but it feels you know a bit too little about magic in order to present examples from that side of the discussion. But i aprettiate that you were sincere in statting that yugioh is the game you prefer.

[@Draw5Move5]

Thanks for the feedback Gonçalo. I'm working on that first part - research is something I'm trying to be more conscious of to make sure I present the points fairly and try to edit myself for bias so they're clear and undistorted, while still providing my perspective. It's a hard balance to strike, but with each video I'm getting better.

[@Yinyanyeow]

I'm glad that I found this. Kind of helps with a game I'm crafting. In it, when you put out a stronger creature that doesn't have a lower form out, then you have to pay for it with discarding cards from the deck equal to the number of forms skipped. (You are rewarded for growing your creature by having you draw cards equal to the evolution cards under the strongest card that got KOed.) Also in order to use the special attacks you need a creature KOed and use that resource but you can't take more than 5 Kos since a 6 is a game over. In a sense, putting creatures into play can cost you a lot if certain cards are too powerful. Do you think this is kind of a cost restriction that can work?

[@Draw5Move5]

Yinyanyeow, that sounds similar to the Pokémon TCG's evolution mechanic but with a way to bypass it at the cost of card advantage. It's a cool idea to play with for sure, you just have to think about how you balance the card advantage with the creature's effects, and how important card advantage and having large creatures are in your game. Another consideration is to give the creatures stronger effects if they have forms beneath them and/or make them weaker if they don't. Yu-Gi-Oh does this sometimes where you can normal/special summon a high level monster, but its effects are negated, or its attack is reduced to 0. Food for thought ^-^!

[@Yinyanyeow]

@@Draw5Move5 I got it though to use a special power on any card, user has to use their Ko'ed creatures to try a power usually. And those are one a turn powers so it makes choices hard enough and also I tried to make weaker creatures viable with some having constant powers but they got weak stats and can be hit if in a certain position or special power very easily.

[@Ninjamanhammer]

It's also very important to note than in most games card disadvantage is very bad, you need to do something to keep this from being the case. Most notably there need to not be good one card answers to cards that require multiple cards to play, but there still needs to be some way to answer them.

[@Yinyanyeow]

@@Ninjamanhammer Funny that I didn't get to this. (Sorry.) With the game I made, you never really have to worry about your hand since your deck is where the payment usually comes from since you always go back up to the hand size at the start of the turn after you discard what you don't want.

[@dudono1744]

​@@YinyanyeowDiscarding from deck isn't a really big deal unless you run a crucial card at 1 copy. Pot of desires (a yugioh card that get rid of the 10 top cards of your deck to draw 2) sees wide play in decks that don't have too much one offs

[@ferretfather2000]

Yugioh is a broken game. The speed has become rediculous. No more back and forth, just trying to go first. most tournament decks have become one turn winners. wheres the fun? the fun of games are not about winning, its about playing the game. Yugioh isnt about playing anymore.

[@snakevenom56]

something tells me that regardless of this comment, you didn't even give tearalaments a chance

[@joe-wi8nj]

This same thing happened to magic. I remeber playing casual with friends and local tournament s. In a land far away the 90s. But you never knew and we always played lots of multiplayer. it could just be my love for exploration and unusual decks.

[@bosH0g]

you have no idea what you're talking about

[@pablomadrid6962]

Me when I literally don't know what I'm talking about

[@DebeliYuGiOh]

Yugioh is easily the most interactive game, if you know to play the game you can do things during your opponents turn.

[@ehcee6541]

2:02 I don't know how many MtG players just died from this.

[@thekittenfreakify]

Mtg also ignore theyr resoutce system.

[@Oridan1]

5 to 10 turns to win the game is only considered slow in yugioh lol

[@NecromancyForKids]

Salamangreat? 5 turns? LOL

[@Draw5Move5]

I've seen it a few times but looking back on it, this wasn't the most accurate assessment lol. I'm not sure if I meant 5 turns between both players or just the one, but with the former it's sort of reasonable. If Salamangreat is taking more than 5 of their own turns to win or scoop it up and go to a new game though, something is probably very wrong haha

[@MrZacchery]

Yu Gi Oh

[@nyateorange8056]

Yugioh has requirements Magic had cost

[@valentinegodek4681]

Seems like you’ve got a pretty vague definition of “speed”

[@requiem-tcg]

Yugioh might not have a true resource system, but it doesnt have mechanics that slow the game down. From someone that is and has made custom tcg games resource systems and mechanics slow the game down, but it's ever so slightly. Usually about a turn or two at most

[@joshelderkin9592]

Your yugioh argument aged a little poorly considering the meta today

[@jashubissachar4484]

One turn kills ... This is Yugioh. I don't think you could ever achieve that in Magic

[@easyleg7521]

Magic also has otks and ftks lol

[@jmanwild87]

@@easyleg7521 theey're not common in standard commander has sort of gentleman's agreement-ed out of doing them early and the only places they're incredibly common is legacy and vintage both of which are less popular formats

[@thekittenfreakify]

Yes it does. But most games ignore it to the detriment of the game

[@KaboosOnX1]

I never understood competitive card games. Like this deck someone built won over 200 times in this tournament. Ummmmm..cool dude. Some deck someone built and people just copy keeps winning. Fun…but idk I’ll stick to kitchen table.