Doctor Who has been gay for a long time

Edited by ‪@dissonance85‬
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[@CouncilofGeeks]

A playlist of videos covering the issues with the BBC and transphobic reporting: kzbin.info/aero/PLmWFOeT2jEofVIDW9X3OL7GqWuX3Dxopu

[@yeetonmyfeet6548]

7 days ago? dang this video has been cooking for a while lol

[@ripleyemmem3981]

Thank you

[@clairefraser4315]

People definitely have selective memory about this. I'm rewatching new who rn and as early as episode two we have Cassandra the human sheet of leather going "I remember when I grew up on earth as a little boy." The showhas always been deliberately flippant about gender and sexuality.

[@Freak80MC]

It's always amusing when people who complain about how "woke" Doctor Who is now or something, will disregard all the stuff that happened since the revival started. Especially the fact it was ran by a gay man from the start lol

[@klop4228]

@@Freak80MC Given "woke" means "leftist/political/things I don't like", it's been woke since the 70s at the earliest.

[@calebleland8390]

​@@Freak80MCsci-fi fantasy has always been "woke". Anybody who is complaining about it now hasn't been paying attention. It kills me when they start in on the "Doctor Who/Star Trek/Star Wars/etc is now woke". Now? Yeah, sure.

[@Donnagata1409]

@@calebleland8390 Since when Star Trek is woke? Mmmm...Since 1966?

[@zemoxian]

@@Donnagata1409 I love the stories of how important Nichelle Nichols roll was to two particular fans of the show. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Whoopi Goldberg. It was definitely woke by design. It wasn’t even as woke as Roddenberry wanted it to be.

[@marconihimself]

"How gay is doctor who?" "Yes"

[@DWP102589]

“So ducking gay” …oh sorry, that was my autocorrect, but yeah, it’s super gay

[@PhilDrury]

Even Vorlons agree it seems.

[@marconihimself]

@@PhilDrury lol, my first email used to be "kosh" something, so yes.

[@aw-ht2vs]

In season three of the revival in New York Martha complaines about the Doctor not reciprocating her feelings to Tallulaha who in turn who says “Oh, I should have realised. He’s into musical theatre, huh?” as code for her believing him to be gay

[@Kyubone]

And it that very same episode 10 kinda flirts with Frank saying he could kiss him later if he wants😉 (although he did tell that to Martha as well)

[@lucypreece7581]

@@Kyubone But in all realness who wouldn't ask Andrew Garfield to kiss them?

[@nekusakura6748]

@@lucypreece7581 A Lesbian Woman perhaps?

[@dissonance85]

"You're a beautiful woman... probably." - My favorite line for some reason

[@nancyjay790]

It struck me as how the Doctor is an alien. He doesn't judge beauty by human standards.

[@marcus9434]

That quote sums up what I prefer the Doctor to be: asexual or sexually indifferent. "What do I care of the human race... SCUM! The toooooools of my salvation!" That episode is full of great quotes.

[@gemmamoon5998]

@@marcus9434 My headcanon is it changes from doctor to doctor. Like, 10 seems ace and has romantic feelings for Rose, while 11 & 12 might have more sexual attraction. It’s probably something that changes more between writers than Doctors, since 15 feels like the first Doctor he’s written with any (seemingly) sexual interest

[@zemoxian]

@@gemmamoon5998 I certainly don’t see why orientation can’t change when every other attribute is flexible. The only real limiting factor is the general acceptance of the audience or given laws at different points in time.

[@ryantrabucco7897]

love 4th doctor being aroace

[@aw-ht2vs]

In series three of the revival 10 says to Martha “Yeah, well, you can kiss me later. You too Frank, if you want.” (Frank was played by Andrew Garfield)

[@fabrisseterbrugghe8567]

Well, who wouldn't want to be kissed by Andrew Garfield?

[@aw-ht2vs]

@@fabrisseterbrugghe8567 point taken

[@Comicbroe405]

​@@fabrisseterbrugghe8567 Real

[@lumafernandes22]

My favorite exchange is between River and 12th RIVER: You married Cleopatra! DOCTOR: You too!

[@Lia-zw1ls7tz7o]

Concerning Torchwood and representation, pretty much every main character was bisexual. Gwen, Owen and Tosh all had at least one scene where they kissed a person of their own gender.

[@marocat4749]

Rhys and gwen ate the token straight couple , ha ha ha , and i love them. . Not because of that , its great that the team is pretty queer, its just a fun dynamic. Also yeah pretty sure gwen is bi. rys as token straight fun dynamic :D , he definitly adds a lot maybe because of that? Even if its clear he is the odd man out and still part, and him pointing that out and going along is, great..

[@Arizonaguy1856]

didnt tosh actually have/develop feelings for the woman (i forgot her name) compared to gwen who more so was kissed by the sex gas alien?

[@MrTambourineMan.]

I kinda hated that NGL. Nothing wrong with being bi, but I find it so hard to believe nearly all of them were. And in the early 2000s?

[@Lia-zw1ls7tz7o]

@@MrTambourineMan. Well, sexualities have always been there so whether in the 2000s or not, that's not the issue. Just because bisexual people weren't as represented in media back then didn't mean thata group of people couldn't be bisexual.

[@TheDivagirlfriend]

@@Arizonaguy1856 Mary Bennet ….

[@thevampirelover]

I would have loved a mention of River (did notice her in the still), because as a bi dw fan I was delighted by part of her introduction being "I don't fancy you" implying she fancied the rest of her mixed gender team and that leading into her ending. River shares the genderfluidity of a time lord and the omnisexuality of the 52nd century, which I think is really neat.

[@bizarrebunny5579]

Also the “you remind me of my 2nd wife” and the whole cleopatra saga

[@thevampirelover]

@@bizarrebunny5579 oh yes for sure! She keeps up the flirting and referencing various dalliances for her entire run on the show♡

[@proserpina4448]

@@bizarrebunny5579 Didn't she once mention a double date with Cleopatra around the Pandorica storyline? I still wonder who her second wife is. Maybe the Doctor? At least in Alex Kingston's book The ruby's curse River and the 13th Doctor meet.

[@yuvalne]

wait, this video was made BEFORE Rogue? dang, you've got some good timing right there!

[@peterdixon7734]

In 1984 a bloke wrote in to the Radio Times to complain that Jeremy Brett had "introduced an element of camp" to Sherlock Holmes. This amused me greatly, as "the campfulness had been terrific" since 1887. Some people live sheltered lives.

[@hollyturner4186]

Mmhmm! Holmes has always been theatrical. I feel quite sorry for people who can't find joy in diverse readings.

[@nekusakura6748]

To play devils advocate, that writer might have been referencing the fact that Brett was Bisexual.

[@nekusakura6748]

Ian Marter (the actor who Played Harry Sullivan) was a closeted Bisexual Man who only came out to a few of his friends (including Nicholas Courtnay).

[@bookswithike3256]

They actually intended for Harry Sullivan to be revealed as being into men in Knock Knock in series 10, but didn't go with it for some reason. But Harry from that episode said that his granddad and his boyfriend were on holiday in China, and his granddad was originally meant to be Harry Sullivan.

[@ealadubh4800]

Waris Hussein. First director in 1963. I dunno what else needs to be said.

[@richardd9938]

It's also interesting how his sexuality is never clearly stated in An Adventure of Space and Time, but especially as Mark Gatiss wrote that - it's another factor that others him along with Verity Lambert from the BBC status quo of "Seedy sweaty men"

[@Jenifer_R_]

"Fifty-seven academics just punched the air". It's the quiet moments that hit the most.

[@yusaki8064]

I just realised. Yaz was the longest running main companion in the Revival. Rose got 2 seasons Martha got 1 season Donna got 1 season Amy got 2.5 seasons Clara got 2.5 seasons Bill got 1 season Ryan and Graham got 2 seasons Yaz got 3 seasons

[@Alex_Fyrehart]

The funny thing is if you by the amount of stories everyone was in rather than series/seasons, Rose & Yaz wouldn't be all that far off from each other. Yaz may probably still win out due to there not being many two parters in the Chibnall run, but Flux being a season long story kinda brings her number down technically if you count Flux as one continuous story.

[@aducharme01]

@@Alex_Fyrehart Yeah, Yaz probably still wins out. Even the lowest count puts her at 23 stories. Rose has 21 in her normal run, plus another 2 proper stories in series 4. To put Rose over the top, you'd need to count all her brief cameos that happen in season 4 and the specials, which I don't think anyone does. And most counts for Yaz would be at least a story higher than that.

[@ashleyschreiber7115]

@@Alex_Fyrehart I believe clara actually wins out on number of episodes

[@marisauzick6075]

I've done the math, if you by number of minutes on screen (I count any episode a companion appears in as "on screen"), Yaz is 8th all time and 1st for revival-era. Jamie, Sarah Jane, and Jo are the top 3. Only Yaz and Clara are in the top 10 for the Revival.

[@marisauzick6075]

*Obviously this is only main series. Sarah Jane, Jack, and K9 would all be higher if we included spin-offs.

[@goeldicotton]

Ok that sonic joke had me cackling wtf XD Edit: River being confirmed to have wives as well as husbands in husbands of River Song is a gay detail I really enjoy.

[@kaizoisevil]

Maybe one of them was the fugitive doctor.

[@lasseehrenreich5502]

A smaller creator by the name Aus Who Fan also did a video about queerness in Doctor Who - he also dove into some very obscure stuff. I would recommend watching their video too.

[@BeeHeartHeartHeart]

I would also strongly recommend the channel AstralArmadillo and their video on the queer history of Doctor Who!

[@lasseehrenreich5502]

@@BeeHeartHeartHeart Yes, I have also seen the it it s Great

[@oliverrose7796]

"I wish Torchwood was a better show." - I felt that in my soul lol.

[@kyledawson871]

What's wrong with Torchwood?

[@alim.9801]

I love Torchwood but lord it can be painful to love 😭

[@oliverrose7796]

@@kyledawson871 imo it was a lot of wasted potential. I didn't like that it relied so much on cheating story lines bc I personally find it an overused (and cruel) way to create drama. It's not the worst show in the world by any means.

[@novagray4143]

So it starts as a monster of the week sex heavy type thing with unlikable characters. Then, as soom as you feel like youre starting to know these characters (that youve already been following for a long time) they kill a bunch of them. Then theres one of the best seasons of scyfy tv and the final season is polarizing​@@kyledawson871

[@nekusakura6748]

Torchwood Big Finish is better than the TV show in my opinion.

[@johnhmaloney]

"57 academics just punched the air" - Tenn. I completely forgot about that line and I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I saw the clip in this video, just like I probably did when I first saw the episode. LOL

[@modmaker7617]

Doctor Who is the gayest show to exist since the 2nd Dr and Jamie McCrimmon in the 60s.

[@richardd9938]

They were shagging throughout for sure❤ It's a big one I heard...

[@SpellboundTutor]

I was gonna say... this was oddly omitted from the Classic Who "It's not that hard to read into this" examples.

[@benllewellyn297]

@@SpellboundTutor Or the First and Steven.

[@k.nataliedegraff9423]

I remember that the Whovians in the 1980s often speculated that Jsmie and the 2nd Doctor's relationship. We also wondered about the Third Doctor. He always gave off that energy.

[@calebleland8390]

To quote McCartney in A Hard Day's Night, "no actually, we're just good friends". 🤣🤣 The classic line from bigoted historians to erase actual queer history.

[@fuzzyaziraphale4228]

In the episode New Earth the Doctor took Cassandra back in time to see them when they still had a human body prior to the surgery.They were portrayed as being female presenting so that could be considered as additional evidence that Cassandra was trans.

[@kevin10001]

There was an actual interview article in the 80’s with Sydney Newman actually saying that the actual intention of regeneration in reality was meant to open up the character of the doctor to have men and women play the role pretty much stating that timelords were always gender fluid by that article by today’s gender terminology even though no producer/showrunner officially was willing to cast a woman until Chris chibnall cast Jodie Whittaker in 2018 unofficially the first female doctor was Joanna Lumley in the children in need sketch curse of the fatal death where after a seemingly rapid fire run through of regenerations after a verbal standoff with the master as the doctor’s last regeneration of the sketch he becomes Joanna Lumley

[@tmage23]

If I'm not mistaken, they were seriously considering casting a woman as the 'Doctor as early as the 5th Doctor's regeneration.

[@calebleland8390]

​@@tmage23there had been talk about it, and I believe JNT had said publicly that he would like to see a woman as The Doctor, but people argue whether this was in jest or in earnest. I think even Tom publicly stated that he'd like to see a woman in the role.

[@samuelbarber6177]

I don’t remember if this was brought up but the show’s long term producer in the 1980s, John Nathan-Turner was also Gay, and no matter what one thinks of Nathan-Turner, he was a very important part of the show for a long time, even as far back as 1969 when he started as a floor assistant.

[@Snatcher42]

And continued to produce Dr Who media during the wilderness years. A controversial figure for sure, but he was in charge of Dr Who for the better part of two decades.

[@samuelbarber6177]

@@Snatcher42 I have mixed opinions on his work but I kinda feel bad for him. Dude apparently wanted to leave the show as early as ‘85 but BBC management just didn’t let him. And then he gets this pretty dismal reputation amongst certain sections of the fandom.

[@calebleland8390]

​@@samuelbarber6177"pretty dismal reputation"...dude was responsible for Colin Baker's costume. There's no coming out smelling like roses after that. 😂😂😂

[@bookswithike3256]

He certainly did some coding of his own. Like those two tourists in The Arc of Infinity.

[@samuelbarber6177]

@@calebleland8390 I don’t know, I kind’a have a soft spot for that costume, and no, I’ve never been good at fashion

[@Arizonaguy1856]

As someone who loves the audios and books, (i know you werent gonna mention these but i will

[@Jogproof]

Can you tell me the name of the 1st audio it sounds great. And did you listen to the latest 9 and River set it was fantastic and explored the AroAce community.

[@WhoTheory]

If there's one Doctor Who quote that sums up this video, it has to be the Second Doctor's famous line from the Macra Terror episode one, 'Well this is gay'

[@BlackCover95]

It’s weird to think complainers see new developments as “more gay” than Captain Jack Harkness.

[@connorcmusician]

dont forget that 14 mentioned attraction to men, specifically isaac newton in Wild Blue Yonder

[@thekiss2083]

Yeah him revealing that about himself made me really happy 😊

[@Sgtspork]

​@@thekiss2083 is it bad that I imagine David Tennant saying that instead of The Doctor? 🤔😁🤭😘😇

[@joejoe2674]

When I was 12 I had a huge crush on Adric. I keep thinking about how different my life would have been had I known at the time that the actor was gay (or that JNT was, even!). I'm in my 50s now, and Matthew still has to be one of my favorite people connected with Doctor Who. I'm surprised you didn't mention JNT though... in other words, RTD is not the first gay Doctor Who showrunner! JNT's partner was also production manager during that era!

[@majortwang2396]

I spent a day with Matthew Waterhouse a few years ago - he was appearing at a convention, and I was the guy sitting next to him, taking the money, managing the queue. Seemed to be a genuinely nice chap.

[@user-pq9kb3fi3h]

doctor who shouldn't ever be strictly gay or straight but a spectrum of different things

[@ctt5086]

i'm happy with ambiguity as with the classic series. the episodes are too short for these subplots of romantic relationships. keep the show asexual.

[@Caleb42523]

​@@ctt5086 The stories had more time than the modern does. It wasn't a time thing, they just generally chose to avoid romance.

[@ctt5086]

@@Caleb42523 for whatever reason they did it, it was a good choice imo.

[@Alex_Fyrehart]

Funny thing you didn't get to is that while it was never an intentional thing, apparently Patrick Troughton and Frazer Hines would sometimes adlib bits that could imply the 2nd Doctor & Jamie McCrimmon were likely in some form of a queer relationship. Mainly because they were good friends and just having fun, but yeah. Beyond that, The Master & Jon Pertwee's 3rd Doctor's dynamic always felt like it had queer undertones, intentional or not. The two may as well have been playing it like they were ex-lovers who threw barbs at each other any chance they could get.

[@iamnobody2]

well she did say at the beginning she didn't want to say a whole lot about classic who cause it'd be speculating on undertones. i haven't watched enough second doctor so i never picked up on that one, you're right about pertwee and the master though, and pertwee's doctor on the whole seemed a bit queer coded to me though i am not particularly knowledgable on the subject.

[@Fitzroyfallz]

Jon Pertwee said he saw the doctor as and played the doctor as ‘completely asexual’, which is pretty queer in its own right! (I think he meant asexual as in the old fashioned meaning, because the interviewer was asking if the doctor would ever be in a relationship). But it is definitely fun to see the doctor and the master as ex lovers, it makes their dynamic all the more interesting

[@Alex_Fyrehart]

@@iamnobody2 I did hear that bit yes, I just thought they may offhand reference it (assuming she knew about it anyway), as since they didn't I figured it'd be fun to mention to show queer coding goes back into the black & white era of the show.

[@nealjroberts4050]

I can imagine a future storyline where it's mentioned that Susan is the Master's granddaughter too 😉

[@nealjroberts4050]

@@lesigh1749 Why?

[@aw-ht2vs]

The two most recent incarnations of the doctor also showed attraction towards male side characters. David had the scene about him finding Isaac Newton hot and coming to terms with what that means for him in “Wild Blue Yonder” and Ncuti thought Ricky September in “Dot and Bubble” was handsome

[@aw-ht2vs]

In S7E4 Eleven encounters a horse in the wild west that someone else says is called Joshua and says „No, I speak horse, he’s called Susan and he wants you to respect his life choices“

[@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio]

I remember totally picking up on the lesbian vibes of Professor Rumford in "The Stones of Blood" way back in the 1980s. I always thought that she was in a relationship with Vivien Fay. Also, one you didn't mention: go back and watch "The Time Monster" and tell me that Stuart Hyde and Dr. Ruth Ingram aren't heavily queer-coded. What does it mean when Stuart voices his support for women's liberation and Dr. Ingram says he "doesn't count"? Very much implying that he's gay. Maybe they're both a bit stereotyped, but it's definitely there. And the show has always had a huge gay following from the beginning. Many prominent classic Who fans are gay. Gay people tended to relate to a man who traveled with a beautiful woman (usually) and showed her no interest. And many others also related to his apparent asexuality.

[@tulliusexmisc2191]

To be precise, the Stones of Blood was first shown in 1978 (it was both the hundredth story and the fifteenth anniversary story). And yes, Rumford and Fay for sure, although with hindsight Fay might have been less interested. As an inspiration to girls and boys everywhere, when confronted with a deadly alien menace Rumford shouts 'for science!' and runs forward to attack it with .... well, the script calls it a police truncheon, but you know.

[@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio]

@@tulliusexmisc2191 I *saw* it for the first time in the 1980s on PBS, obviously. I never said I saw it on first broadcast. 🤔

[@ugolomb]

​​If I were to illustrate an a-sexual revival Doctor, I'd choose Capaldi. He actually managed to continue to appear a-sexual even in his River Song episode

[@marocat4749]

I mean yes, he has romantic relationships but they stay romantic, but stay asexual. Which fits in.

[@Silverwind87]

"I keep saying we should use this stuff in swimming pools." "Why?" "Think about it." "I am thinking about it, why?"

[@ryanhasproblems]

I have two words for you. Browser history.

[@JanneSala]

​@@ryanhasproblemsgod, I hated that joke. It felt so out of character. Scratch that, the entire first doctor was embarrassingly out of character. Not a big fan of the episode at all.

[@Azrael5050]

@@Silverwind87 what episode is this quote from?

[@mikegoldsmith3600]

Very interesting and well argued ; I'd say the first character who was clearly intended to be gay was Stuart Hyde in the Time Monster, 1972: a positive portrayal (and he had quite a heroic role too). Most disappointing though was Rose saying the Dr was "so gay", clearly to be read as "so weak" in 2005.

[@TonksMoriarty]

Queerness in Doctor Who is a reminder that Queerness has always existed, it's just that folks didn't pay attention to it.

[@AlmostYearly]

Well we can't have that, can we.

[@TomK-ex9yt]

Get help

[@kjmmxii123]

"I don't have the spoons" - you need to talk to the kind woman who survived Sutekh, she'll sort you out ;-)

[@benllewellyn297]

We also had two things shown in the UK but censored in America: Jack Harkness kisses Rose deeply and then kisses Number 9 just as deeply; and a mention by Martha about being in love with someone who barely knows she exists, and Jack replies, "You too?" (exact words not recalled).

[@user-jr4mw9wi1c]

that was shown in the usa, not sure why you thought it wasn't

[@DJParticle]

@@user-jr4mw9wi1c- it was shown in the USA when BBCA aired it in reruns, but not when it was on Sci-Fi. It was one of the scenes cut for ads Sci-Fi ran more ads during the show than BBCA did. It also aired unedited during that season’s very brief time on PBS in the early 2010s

[@user-jr4mw9wi1c]

@@DJParticle neat did not know that, only watched on bbca

[@aw-ht2vs]

Eleven mentioned two of the founding fathers being attracted to him

[@dharusiokay9426]

And you know how outspoken they must have been for the doctor to notice.

[@SamuelThomasFraser]

By "some accounts," there are queer themes in Survival. "Some accounts" being a phrase which here means "the open admission of Rona Munro, who wrote the damn episode."

[@MrFearDubh]

You skipped the first same sex kiss in Doctor Who. In the Parting of the Ways, Captain Jack Harkness kisses Rose on the lips and then kisses the 9th Doctor on the lips. I wonder how homophobic whovians felt about THAT.

[@herbivarsawus4359]

The Princess's 'companion' Marco in Masque of Madragora is a classic series standout.

[@nekusakura6748]

Renaissance Europeans Ladies and Gentlemen!

[@aw-ht2vs]

Ricky (the parallel universe version of Mickey Smith) also had a boyfriend

[@selmaunsley6683]

Wasn’t that scene cut from the original?

[@aw-ht2vs]

@@selmaunsley6683 yeah, you’re right. Still counts for me though

[@user-pq9kb3fi3h]

the true message of doctor who is about opening up your perspectives, seeing the world as a multidimentional full living thing, so it's probably the most necessary show to talk about different lifestyles and individuals and shit

[@Silverwind87]

There's another thing about Jack Harkness that I never really see anyone discuss. I think he's transmasc coded. In the first episode of Torchwood, he mentions getting pregnant. Then in The Sound of Drums, the Master refers to Jack and Martha as "the girly and the freak, though I'm not sure which is which." Plus, when he's first introduced, he uses a fake name.

[@Donnagata1409]

Oh, I did get that one! Hilarious!

[@etherealtb6021]

Yeah, I had the same argument with an obviously young conservative who said I was a "liar" saying there was a loud minority on forums and chats that complained about RTD's "gay agenda" back when Nu Who and Torchwood were airing. Like you said, those chats (like on IMDB) are all gone now, but I was able to find one article to show them. And I remember.

[@youareherediversity7321]

Fab to see Ace on your thumbnail! She was definitely part of my journey of understanding my own sexuality. I don’t know if her sexuality was ever explored at all, I have not read many of the comics or books. But she was one of the first characters I realised I wanted to be with rather than be like.

[@JAM92]

She hinted that she had a bit of a thing for Mike in Rememberance of the Daleks, maybe she's bi

[@youareherediversity7321]

@@JAM92 that is definitely her energy. She could be ace though 😹

[@joannacole681]

She was into Mike, she was into Soren, she was into a lovely lady in Battlefield... Aaronovitch, who wrote two of those episodes, is on record as saying that, yes, he was pushing the idea that Ace was Bi. And was allowed to do so.

[@snorcutter]

How intresting please tell us more.

[@joannacole681]

@@snorcutter I *think* it's in some of the material surrounding Rivers of London (sorry I can't be more specific, it was a while ago) OR on the DVD commentary for Remembrance of the Daleks... Maybe one of the graphic novels? It was an almost throwaway comment, I remember that much, and had me going "ooooh! That makes sense, actually"

[@rogvortex58]

The Doctor seems pretty happy, most of the time.

[@SailorZakuro]

Although having Thirteen and Yaz in a romantic relationship wasn't planned until WAY too late, they did hint at Yaz being queer near the start of series 11 when her mum asked if she and the Doctor were seeing each other. She didn't question if Yaz was into girls or not, and Yaz didn't defend them as friends by saying she was straight, so I think that could be taken as Yaz being at least heavily implied queer early on (although it seemed they had no intentions of doing anything with it for so long, but they also seemingly had no intentions of putting Yaz and Ryan together which they also hinted at). The rest of Yaz's feelings about the Doctor (and to an extent the Doctor's for Yaz) can very much be up to interpretation (since they said it wasn't planned but at least imo putting a queer reading on their interactions even from the first episode it makes sense), but Yaz being queer from the start may have been intended but they did nothing with it until they saw the shipping, or they had no specific idea about her sexuality for most of her run and accidentally implied her to be queer with that moment.

[@charg1nmalaz0r51]

It was only added because the showrunner spent far too much time trying to appease the fans after his blunder of the first season. It didnt get off to a good start and he thought he would try to fix it by adding the recurring creatures back in he was confident he didnt need, then he tried to make an impact with changing the canon of the show to get some shock interest, then he saw all the talk about them being shipped and tried to stick that in there. he was just a reactionary showrunner that wasnt good lol.

[@Jogproof]

One note on Luke is that when he reappeared in the second boxset of the SJA continuation Rani takes on the world they bring up his husband and their child and another recent Big Finish audio where 9 and River met had them meet an Asexual character and had River and 9 realise that he himself is Aromatic in this incarnation which I love.

[@nekusakura6748]

I'd honestly love it if Luke got to be a Companion and travel with a Doctor in Big Finish.

[@Jogproof]

@@nekusakura6748 I completely agree though trying to figure out which is interesting like 3/4 and onwards would all be fantastic especially if it's Tom himself. I think 13 when they get the rights to do it would be an interesting choice too. But the biggest thing I want to happen is for us to find out what his kid is called. I'm also in two minds on if I want them to interact with the younger Sarah Jane who is currently played by her real daughter.

[@nekusakura6748]

@@Jogproof I'd pick Luke to be a Companion for the 3rd Doctor for some Audio Dramas set between 'The Green Death' and 'The Time Warrior'

[@Jogproof]

@nekusakura6748 now that's an interesting idea

[@nekusakura6748]

@Jogproof I was inspired by Big Finish doing a similar idea with having Charley Pollard travelling with the 8th Doctor then travelling with the 6th Doctor.

[@AvaEvaThornton]

25:30 I'm glad they had an explicitly lesbian companion, but Bill's "like a model, only with talking and thinking" line really had me approaching her era with a nasty taste in my mouth.

[@Venemofthe888]

There's also the gay guys in praxeus during 13s run

[@arahman56]

They are mentioned in the video.

[@Venemofthe888]

@@arahman56 i commented this before the video was live

[@calebleland8390]

I love Moffat's comment about how he inserted a terrific gay joke into Time Crash. The Fifth Doctor asks if The Master still has that "rubbish beard", and Ten says, "No beard...well, a wife". I actually didn't even catch the joke until I heard Morfat say it in an interview.

[@R.senals_Arsenal]

Wait, was Ace Pan or Bi? She definitely liked Mike in Remembrance, Sorin in Fenric, Robin in Nightshade, and Jan in Love & War... I read all the novels, heard the audios, not sure there has ever been a moment where she even raised an eyebrow at anyone female.... Did I miss massive subtext... Again?

[@Fitzroyfallz]

The original writer for Survival wrote it in subtext I believe

[@spluff5]

There are also some moments in Battlefield which could be read that way.

[@tulliusexmisc2191]

In Survival the Doctor explicitly warns Ace aganst being seduced by the Cheetah People. Of course there can be various kinds of seduction, but Karra isn't tempting Ace with money or fame or anything like that, it is very physical both in the script and on the screen. That is the text, and any alternative interpretation would be subtext.

[@WolfBrothersCinema]

Just found this KZbinr - they seem nice and she's doing her research! Subscribed ^^ I was getting tired of youtubers being loud and, well, slightly obnoxious for the sake of keeping your focus on their clip. With her calm and well articulated presentation, I was able to just do other things and listen to her essay. What's her name? I don't think I caught it? They're fun to listen to.

[@saphcal]

this youtuber as in the one making this video? one of the names they go by is Vera. I'd say most fans call her Vera nowadays.

[@iamnobody2]

this is vera! been watching her for a long time. i always appreciate her viewpoint.

[@WolfBrothersCinema]

@@iamnobody2 Vera! Excellent, noted, thank you kindly! She's awesome ^^

[@wesleydavenport6659]

I thought the Yaz/13 thing started earlier than Eve of the Daleks. I remember Yaz and Dan on a boat talking about the doctor while they were traveling around with Mr. Gibbs from PotC. Or was I reading too much into it?

[@helamsirrine]

many such instances. before Eve all was bait... after, it was all pretty pathetic.

[@SnowLily06]

It's possible that it started in Flux, and Chibnall just didn't tell the actors, or maybe those scenes in flux made shippers go crazy and he added the relationship in later. We will likely never know.

[@aw-ht2vs]

Everyone, especially the Doctor questioning whether Osgood in The Zygon Invasion is human or Zygon feels a bit like being an enby and constantly being asked “what’s in your pants?/are you afab or amab?“

[@Jenifer_R_]

I have endured the 'hate-watch' reactions to this and it's embarrassing. One guy went on and on about Ruby in a tank top, then was practically spitting vitriol about Ncuti's performance as 'animalistic'.

[@DanTheElevator]

The way you said "shippers' gonna ship" had me laughing out loud. Yes we are, yes we are!

[@ronniec8218]

I love your Perspective on Dr Who. I personally wish you could write a hand full of episodes if giving a chance

[@rpowell20139]

This is why I enjoy your channel. You do the best commentary on KZbin.

[@pascaleand0r]

Nine was flirting with Jack. They even kissed. Also, Ten never said no to Shakespeare. So it really didn’t start with Fifteen and Rogue.

[@Kyubone]

Also Ten kinda flirting with Frank ;)

[@aw-ht2vs]

The Doctor regenerating can be seen as a metaphor for transitioning. That makes a lot of sense when you look at other people’s reactions, especially Clara‘s (and Rose‘s) to it. 12 begging Clara to see him can also resonate with a lot of trans viewers, who are asking to be seen as their authentic selves. (Plus he sort of has a secret deadname and has to figure out who exactly he is after regenerating, including a new wardrobe, just like a lot of us do after coming to terms with our identities)

[@spluff5]

I know you didn't talk about the audios much, but there's a great trilogy of First Doctor stories with new companion Oliver Harper from the 1960s. Oliver is gay and there's a great scene in the second story where he talks to Steven (who is from the 25th century) about it.

[@darkjaden-fe]

Even prior to Rogue, there are several mentions and offhanded comments that confirm the Doctor experiences a same-sex attraction in his latest two incarnations. David Tennant in I believe it was Wild Blue Yonder agreed with Donna saying a guy is hot and then was like "Oh, is that who I am now? Okay." and then in Dot and Bubble, Ruby and the Doctor both call Ricky September hot and fight over him, so it's confirmed that all three of the most recent incarnations of the doctor experienced same-sex attraction.

[@LiableFilm]

I haven't seen Classic Who, but for Modern Who, it's been gay since it started. There was bisexual bounty hunter Captain Jack. There have been times the Doctor takes shots at the Church for being weird about love. The Doctor has always been an outcast type, regeneration has always been a gender-flexible concept. It's been VERY GAY.

[@Bodabodabroadcast]

Speaking of the 4th Doctor, Ian Marter the actor that played Harry Sullivan was a bisexual man. He unfortunately died from diabetes in a coma😢😢😢

[@Devlinator61116]

I kind of feel like Arachnids In The UK was when the idea of being in a relationship with the Doctor was planted in Yaz's mind, and then The Haunting of Villa Diodati was when Yaz finally admitted to herself that she had feelings for the Doctor. It's a shame that that's all the build up we ever got.

[@radic888]

Will you be discussing the relationship between Jamie and the second Doctor?

[@lindseywhite3371]

Thank you so much for this Vera, I didn't know much about the classic era, and was very glad to find out.

[@thomaspowers1375]

In the first part of Flux. the Doctor and Yaz escape from a gravity bar and fal into the Tardis below, landing on a bed together. I initially thought the show was establishing them as a couple, which did not happen.

[@helamsirrine]

zomg the metric tons of thasmin queerbait that were all over those three seasons. Villa Diodati near the end of season 12 has a Yas scene with the young woman crushing on Byron that has no other interpretation. The flux season ramped it way up. Even in season 11 tho... tea with yas' family, thrift store date chapperoned by Ryan, the oft cited 'are we dating?' scenes in Spiders, getting henna together with Yas' family and dropping trans jokes. Nothing super explicit obviously, but the teases for a potential thasmin plotline were there from some of the earliest episodes, and they only ever escalated. By the time you open season 13 and yer tossing them onto a mattress in the cold open, this was already an established patten of thasmin baiting the show had been doing for chibnalls entire run of episodes. The whistle had gotten so loud that even those who had maybe missed the previous bait raised an eyebrow. Mandip may have only known that the show was going to make the queer storyline explicit when she read the Dalek script, but whether she was knowingly playing up the ship or not seems kinda irrelevant when the bait is right there in the text of the stories. Shippers gonna ship, but c'mon... that's not all that was happening there.

[@EliaAliceRaven]

@@helamsirrine As someone who only started watching Doctor Who AFTER Eve of the Daleks, but had been keeping an eye on Thasmin from the outside for YEARS before that (I've been queerbaited so many times that I'd reached the "I'm not getting invested, thank you very much" stage of self-preservation) (I did use to say, though, same as I did with Supergirl at the time, "but if it ever, by some miracle, does become canon at some point : I'm watching the entire damn thing"... I did NOT ever think it would actually happen, though :') and yet, HERE WE ARE) : THIS. All of this. Like, I'm a MAJOR f/f shipper and not shy about it, but years upon years of watching TV made sure I know damn well how to distinguish between "that's wishful thinking on my end / me having some fun with a dynamic I like, it's fine" and "the show keeps repeatedly teasing something, that's not just me, COME ON NOW". And oh boy, were there scenes from series 11 to 13 that were not subtle AT ALL. Between the script (that damn scene from Villa Diodati !!) and the fact that Mandip played Yaz as moony-eyed over the Doctor basically from day one (for whatever reason), YAZ'S CRUSH WAS NOWHERE NEAR HIDDEN. Where Chibnall really, REALLY fumbled the ball was the reverse - when it came to the Doctor. Because it's clear Jodie never got told to even hint at reciprocation before the last specials. (I've seen more than enough BTS videos to know that I've never seen the Doctor look at Yaz with even half as much adoration as Jodie looks at Mandip IRL - and that's saying something, considering I'm comparing what's supposed to be romantic chemistry on screen between two characters with the natural interactions of the two actresses, who became BFFs upon meeting, playing them. Dear god.) I mean, even just directing Jodie to act more like herself would have made this seem less one-sided, so if that's not a testament to how badly this was mishandled, I don't know what is... 😭 But anyway - yeah, hard agree. Thasmin wasn't just "shippers gonna ship". It was "shippers gonna keep gnawing on the bones the show keeps throwing". I don't think anyone expected they'd ever actually acknowledge it and turn those numerous hints into an Actually Canon thing, though !

[@helamsirrine]

@@EliaAliceRaven ya, that's exactly why I refuse to shy away from calling it anything else but explicit queerbait. Some may say that's hyperbolic, but the simple fact that there was so much text there, and yet mandip is stating publicly that there was no direction or discussion of it until Daleks proves the point. They were writing that stuff in for 3 seasons, and yet it would seem that they never intended to acknowledge it explicitly or develop a storyline. Only at the last minute, when it was clear that they would get a negative fan reaction if they didn't do something to address their own elephant in the room. Those lines in Sea devils especially seem very bolted onto the script, and by PotD they seem to have gone right back to status quo from before the confession stuff. Textbook.

[@Donnagata1409]

@@EliaAliceRaven But they did make it canon in the end, only the Doctor did not want to risk getting involved. That did not mean she did not love Yaz. And who could avoid loving Yaz? She's a honey pot.

[@TetchyEquation]

Just wanted to mention there is a deleted coming out scene for Luke Smith in an episode that was cut, because RTD said they couldn't just have him come out to his family so casually

[@marisauzick6075]

This is one of my favorite topics, and you did an excellent job on both this video and your eye makeup. I am a sucker for fun color mascara/lashes.

[@Melaniy-un3kr]

I didn't know about "Farewell Sarah Jane" before this. Thanks for the ugly cry...I mean it

[@souleylove]

I don't know why (maybe because you seem very happy in this video, and I hope you are) but your ending made me tear up a little. This was a great video. Thanks!

[@ctt5086]

There's gay and then there is what we have today. I'm not the audience for what we have today.

[@fisheyenomiko]

"X is so woke now!" I'm willing to bet X has always been woke, but society has moved forward, so what was "woke" then is normal now. So you don't *see* the previous "wokeness", but it was there. It has *always* been there.

[@nealjroberts4050]

ST is a rather obvious and easy example

[@brysimm404]

When gays are saying “Wow this show is really gay”; you know the show is really gay. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, of course 🤪

[@orla8319]

Mandip not knowing for certain that Yaz had a crush on the Doctor until Eve of the Daleks is so funny to me, just because it implies that maybe Yaz obsessing over that one hologram of the Doctor, in a parallel to Vinder and Bel, was meant to be read entirely platonically. I don't care about shipping and even I think that's wild Also during a rewatch, some friends and I landed on "she can reclaim it" as the funniest explanation for Rose saying that in aliens of london. I was gonna double-check that Billie Piper quote about how Rose would still love 13 as a flimsy non-canon justification, but got distracted bc my search results showed that Rose is cited on the fandom wiki's "homophobia" page for that specific quote. Truly Rose Tyler contains multitudes lmao

[@dylanthompson5421]

I remember ‘you’re so gay’ being used an insult all the way up until I left secondary school in 2016, so even though, of course it isn’t okay to use it as an insult, it was definitely acceptable and common for people to say, in the UK anyway. I remember saying countless times, even to supposed friends I had at the time, that it wasn’t okay to say, especially with them saying it around me as a gay man, and they used to argue that it has nothing to do with being gay, it’s just a word that they used.

[@charg1nmalaz0r51]

Thats because it didnt have anything to do with them being gay. Its the same thing as calling a full grown bloke a girl. No one who uses that mocking type of insult hates girls lol. Its just not what the person you are talking to is so its meant to make them upset. That is the purpose of the statement.

[@dylanthompson5421]

@@charg1nmalaz0r51 but it’s using the term in a derogatory manner, and with the bullying against queer people that happens in school (which I myself included) it shouldn’t be said.

[@stanceymackenzie]

Brilliant everything I wanted to hear and have been thinking about recently and generally as Doctor Who fan. Thank you

[@CulturePhilter]

I remember those Outpost Gallifrey posts accusing RTD of having a “Gay agenda” in 2005. Posted by idiots of course.

[@kin1332]

That video about Bill was the first one I've ever seen from you and I've been a subscriber ever since. Happy pride month!

[@nellebolton7910]

Let it not be understated that The Doctor in MANY incarnations is somewhere on the ace spectrum. I don't know much about classic but in the revival era it can be argued that nearly all of the incarnations of The Doctor are ace in some form. (After all action is not attraction and not every ace person is aro)

[@kellygingrich4302]

I am SO glad to find out about that shoutout about Nyssa and Tegan - I'm currently just watching through classic who for the first time and very quickly picked up that they were a 'thing' in the subtext.

[@noelleggett5368]

Eldrad, the villain from the planet Kastria, from ‘The Hand of Fear’ (Fourth Doctor, Season 15, first aired in UK in October 1976) was a non-binary character played by both male and female actors. This was the first Dr Who story I encountered as a 7-year-old in Australia. (Fortunately, Australian TV reran previous episodes of Dr Who throughout the 70s and 80s, so I got to see all the previous stories with Jon Pertwee and Tom Baker.) Queer characters have always made great villains. Thanks to Captain Jack, and the Doctor (themself?), they make great heroes, too.

[@jamiec9260]

I know their a pretty obscure character but I am lowkey disappointed we didn't get a shoutout for the first openly Gay companion in any Doctor Who media (and my personal favorite companion) Izzy from the DWM 8th Doctor Comics

[@ElizabethMidfordHatesCops]

Boosting! So many of Eight's companions are LGBT. But of high importance is first ever explicitly LGBT companion Izzy.

[@imafgc]

In relation to the Doctors sexuality I think each regeneration has their own thing, Like some are gay (2), some bi/pan (8), some straight (3) and some asexual (4)

[@buhe1]

Do Timelords even have the concept of straight and gay since they can biologically change gender through regeneration? To their culture the two are probably the exact same thing to them.

[@DontSigh]

River Song? (Also that deleted scene of Jake talking about his relationship with Ricky Smith.) (And you didn't mention that the 14th Doctor said he was into Isaac Newton in Wild Blue Yonder) (Also "she was my mancrush" scene)

[@arthurward2067]

You've gotta watch Masque of the Mandragora, even though the words are never said, it's the first story with an unambiguously gay couple. And a pretty underrated sorry in my opinion

[@nekusakura6748]

Elizabeth Sladen actually extended her contract to film that Serial.

[@mattrobert5]

Rose calling the doctor gay is super accurate to mid 2000's british working class slang. Its a good line yo subtlety show the time era she is from amd how she grows through her travels

[@SariaSchala]

I'm surprised you didn't mention any of the Doctor/Master subtext. Great video all the same!

[@unexpectedbagel6164]

Was Mike Yates mentioned? UNIT captain during probably the 3rd Doctor era. He at least once asked the Brigadier to go dancing, if memory serves. Can't remember what story that was in, though...

[@aloysiuswhiteboat2934]

Before I even watch the video, I want to express my appreciation that you didn't put Barrowman in the thumbnail

[@DGSAFDMD]

Love that River’s picture was included but nothing was commented about her 👀

[@DGSAFDMD]

And by this I mean wtf? Why was River completely ignored?

[@voldebone]

i must say even they didnt really planned on a romance between Yaz and 13. They acted the shit out of it imo. I loved the scenes and its a testemony of their acting skills :3

[@craftyarts7431]

Holy crap, I did NOT know about the pink triangle thing, that’s crazy

[@Kimmybo82]

I remember watching Jodie's Doctor episodes and saying to my partner that Yaz seemed to have feelings stronger than friendship a few episodes before Yaz spoke to Dan. Because I remember her turning to me when we were watching Yaz and Dan talked and said to me how did you see that? As you mentioned maybe wishful thinking. But I swear there were looks that Yaz would give her and the way she spoke to 13 sometimes just felt there was more behind it. So happy when it happened though.

[@Donnagata1409]

She did give such loving glances... to the Doctor 💔💔💔💔

[@snowglass3969]

As I was thinking back on the show, there's another in-show gender shift with regeneration. The General played by Ken Bones in The Day of the Doctor regenerated into T'Nia Miller in Hell Bent.

[@tulliusexmisc2191]

The first time that happened (and probably also the second) was to Eldrad in the Hand of Fear, 1976.