Doctor Who's Canon is a Mess

Doctor Who fans often find themselves debating the idea of canon within the show, which stories "count" and which don't. It's a long-running thing within the fanbase and I have some thoughts about it!
Edited by @DuncanJMcMillan
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#DoctorWho #VideoEssay #Canon

[@HarboWholmes]

the only canon thing is my patreon www.patreon.com/harbowholmes

[@snakedaemongaming6590]

Personally I think the canon is everything Being a time traveler the doctor can't intervene with fixed events but any time he does intervene the timeline and universe shifts changing events and the doctor being a time sensitive means he knows and yet doesn't need to acknowledge it Paul mcgann miniepisode acknowledged the fact that big finish is canon as he mentions his companions

[@shemdellashemygd29]

Simple rtd sorted this with one line in the 60th seems it went over everyone's head then.

[@BlueBox2605]

I wouldn't say it's a mess. it's more like a big ball of...Wibberly Wobberly....Timey Wimey....stuff.

[@1972LittleC]

You beat me to it (and I guess not only me).

[@nickh9084]

Started well, that sentence

[@erubin100]

I think we were so damn spoiled by the first RTD era that we completely forgot what Doctor Who really was as a whole. Honestly, one could argue the man did TOO GOOD of a job reviving the show.

[@legobi_wan_kenobi]

Having continuity within a specific era is good, and it's nice to have the occasional reference or callback to other eras, but trying to have coherent continuity across multiple eras of the show just limits what future writers can do

[@bigolgeek1693]

​@legobi_wan_kenobi This is true to an extent. I think Steven Moffat took the best approach where he added new layers to what came before. His decision to make the doctor actually save gallifrey in the 50th anniversary doesn't undermine what came before but rather acts a celebration of RTD's story line. You can change what writer's established before as long as it's still consistent with what you're adding.

[@legobi_wan_kenobi]

@@bigolgeek1693 there are those that argue the 50th Anniversary did somewhat undermine RTD's story - while there is an acceptable in-universe explanation for why the Ninth and Tenth Doctors feel intense survivor's guilt and shame for what they did, the fact that Gallifrey wasn't actually destroyed does cast a shadow over the previous era, especially the Ninth Doctor. Having said that, I fully support Moffat's decision to do what he wanted to do with the show, regardless of how it affected what came before. Same goes for Chibnall, and RTD now that he's back. I do agree that it's best for writers to add new layers to previous works, but I simultaneously believe that an incumbent Doctor Who showrunner should be able to do whatever they want with as few limitations as possible. That's how Classic Who operated, it ensures that there will always be fresh ideas. Reverence for the past is nice for nostalgia but it can also lead to stagnation and repetition. I think Doctor Who should never be limited in its potential for storytelling, even if new stories "overwrite" some aspects of old ones.

[@guyfaux900]

I think ignoring Cannon is like the middle finger too long time fans. This is the Crux of being a Gen X the people that were told to wait our time. Put in our hours get rewarded for seniority loyalty etcetera. Nowadays you could have shopped at the same business for 25 years and they could care less. So it doesn't surprise me this is done on television programs where millions are at stake. You can't buy life long time fans back so easily though. Every season seems to have a new permanent timeline of something or other So eventually you just give up.

[@legobi_wan_kenobi]

@@guyfaux900 that sounds more like a desire to cling to the past than anything else. By that logic, the older you get the less receptive you get to new stories. It's an insular mindset that feeds ignorance

[@The_Nordic_Doctor]

I imagine canon as a map of multiversal alternating contradictory timelines that can be read as "bubbles" and "shards" and then many possible explanations for certain situations/things

[@kronos7110]

Same here.

[@jackmozenrath135]

Did you hear, TARDIS Wiki has gone independent and separated from FANDOM?

[@mayotango1317]

What the hell?

[@plows2940]

Thank God. Fandom sucks so much

[@ShadowWingTronix]

Really? Have to update my URLs.

[@NoButIGotCheezWhiz]

They did a Wixit??

[@najawin8348]

Tardis DOT wiki everyone. Save it. Almost all the editors and admins left for the new site. It's practically embarrassing how efficient the whole thing was.

[@EddJones25]

It's very "Doctor Who" and "British", that just about everything else in Doctor Who canon is a mess, but they'll damn well stick to a running joke like "Mavity"

[@gedbyrne8482]

Mavity is more than just running joke.

[@justanormalhumanbeing1903]

​@@gedbyrne8482 the producers are gonna get sick of ot someday and there's gonna be an episode where they go back in time and correct their mistake

[@TheVicarstownSentinel]

I usually just blame the Time War for contradictions like the Meep, Human Nature or Mary Shelley.

[@Comicbroe405]

Why?

[@TheVicarstownSentinel]

@@Comicbroe405 The timewar quite literally altered time. Hence why the Meep seems to not remember the Doctor, there's two versions of Human Nature, and none of the Toymaker's appearances in extended media seem to count anymore.

[@kierantolson335]

​@@TheVicarstownSentinel that's a good idea

[@jaschul]

And the UNIT Dating Issue.

[@TheVicarstownSentinel]

@@jaschul Yes there is that too, though iirc Kate did say 70s or 80s depending on protocol. So...both?

[@c0nvict_pleb174]

The best way to describe the cannon of Doctor who is Fluidic, no fixed rules, no consistency or anything. It’s just fluidic, ever changing and malleable all that matters is how good it is and even mentioning past events

[@bobnotbobff]

In my head is time travel messing with the canon

[@jeckjeck3119]

Same.

[@thunderking2456]

I personally would like the cannon to at least obey its own cannon for each era of the show just so you can get a consistent world to build up but also not as much baggage or rules to remember over the last 60 years. With me saying that I hope they don't just forget everything before, references and fan service is more than welcome.

[@mayotango1317]

Around 1979, Tom Baker said that Graham Williams was happy if 85% of continuity was maintained series by series. This meant, in essence, that after five years, the programme could have changed everything and no one in the non-fan part of the public would really have cared.

[@dalekman9999]

I interpret all of the contradictions and stuff as just alterations through temporal conflicts and stuff like the time war. The 8th doctor time war series showed alterations can happen with the doctor not even knowing to the point of people in his life being erased without even an acknowledgment. :3

[@plows2940]

The continuity and shared universe is a big part of what I like about Doctor Who. Despite all the contradictions I wouldn't want it any other way. The canon is maliable and up to interpretation but still has continuity and connections to its past. The continuity is a big part of the appeal and the show would be worse off if they ever did a hard reboot. A big part of why I don't like superhero comics is that they constantly reboot and reset the continuity. I vastly prefer Doctor Who's approach to how other franchises handle this stuff imo.

[@poop3882]

The Doctor is a Time Lord from the planet Gallifrey. Time Lords may look human, but couldn't be more different. Not only do they have two hearts, they literally experience time differently. They can see past, present, and future all at once. They can resist temporal phenomena such as time stops and can tamper with fixed points in time. They're effectively acausal beings. This makes them super hard to predict and nearly impossible to erase from any timeline. They can even breach the bounds of space and talk directly to you.

[@senorgooba7360]

The canon debate is an interesting one. When I think about it now and consider just how much contradictory doctor who there is, the idea that there is no canon makes sense. But I initially had opposition to the idea because I felt people would excuse plots and stories making little sense or being contradictory because there is no canon. If people use it as an excuse for bad stories, I dont like it. That however is more about how people interact with the canon, and less about if there even is one. Great video Harbo!

[@lordsathariel4384]

my attitude towards alot of the old who stuff that contradicts and a lot of tenants and extended media that contradicted was that in a lot of the situations both could be true however matt's run and onwards has a record of overwriting past works as before most writers sort of muddled it all together and left it ambiguous so i don't know i personally have never cared for cannons that are not clearly defined as in these situations i count everything except stories with atrocious holes or writing.

[@a.m.hofmeister725]

I think of it as canon "pockets". Each era should be consistent unto itself at the very least.

[@aceofconquest5745]

I don't think attempting to stick to a strict cannon 14 years after the End of Time would have destroyed the show. I bet someone creative enough would be able to think around things established and or build on them, allowing for continued "breathing room" for story telling. I think the restrictive nature of an attempt at a hard cannon would have just helped like the first RTD era. It is what made me fall in love with the show partially as a kid.

[@dalekbumps]

Canon is an illusion, and Doctor Who is the magician

[@CreativeColton]

It’s best to remember that everything and nothing is canon in Doctor Who. The story can literally be what you want it to be. There is a lot that conflicts, but we’re talking about a series with time travel and alternate universes. I think it’s 100% valid to enjoy it how you choose to. I personally consider Big Finish audio dramas to be just as important as the show, even if events in the audio dramas don’t have a direct effect on the show. They are the true expanded universe. So many of the original actors still do the audios, and they are written as well if not better than a majority of the actual television series. The comics feel like they would be the most difficult to get into, and again, so much contradictory stuff happens in the comics from what others have told me. One example being that Jamie dies during a final adventure with the sixth Doctor. The comics are just an alternate timeline, in my mind, that way I don’t have to worry about that continuity as well.

[@hororskull]

The way I approach Doctor Who canon is like a historian: whether or not an event happened, or exactly how it happened, has to be determined using sources. Some sources are more reliable than others (e.g. the main show is "more reliable" than unlicensed continuations from the 90s). But opinions can differ over exactly what information we can accept as true from any given source, as every source is almost guaranteed to be contradicted in some way by another source which is equally "reliable".

[@ShadowWingTronix]

My problem with some changes is not the canon question but whether or not it was a good thing or takes something away from somewhere else. The Timeless Child and Ruth take away from William Hartnell's in-universe status as the First Doctor and he's somehow less special. Ironic since the goal was to make the Doctor the most special being in the universe...again. As for the Family Of Blood and Meep stories, it took something made for a different Doctor and in both cases turned them into David Tennant stories, taking away from them and as the source material makes them less non-canon and just immaterial. That's why I don't like these things happening. On the other hand, making the Big Finish McGann stories "official" gives the Eighth Doctor an actual story within the main Whoniverse. Also, blue Meep and Abslom Daak: I approve.

[@peterthompson1989]

For me I see them as adaptions. I've always seen big finish as kind of separate but sometimes linked when the show does this. I feel the problem with the timeless child is unlike other episodes that added to the shows mythos this took stuff away. It also tries to add mystery by replacing a mystery then not doing much with it.

[@ShadowWingTronix]

@@peterthompson1989 That's one of my pet peeves with Doctor Who. Ever since Cartmel there's always somebody who thinks they need to "add mystery bacK" to The Doctor. Ignore the Timeless whatevers and "The Other" or "the question that should never be answered". What do we really know about the Doctor? He has a granddaughter, so he had to have kids unless it was a surrogate grandparent/grandchild relationship. Was he married? What happened to the rest of his family that he and Susan left Gallifrey? We've gotten bits of his childhood but that's it. There's plenty of mystery. He doesn't have to be the most special being ever.

[@peterthompson1989]

​@@ShadowWingTronixyeah I agree. I was born in 89 so missed the classic run but became a fan before 2005 thanks to my dad. I didn't originally see the whole cartmel master plan originally when first watching 7s episodes but when I discovered it I found it really interesting at first until I realised if would actually end up becoming what it was trying to avoid, by ruining the mystery, although it apparently would never fully confirm if the doctor is the other. I have no problems with new mysteries but I think the show should avoid too much looking to the past. The more we learn about the doctors past the less mysterious they become

[@ShadowWingTronix]

@@peterthompson1989 From what I've heard, the "plan" as "revealed" in the Lungburrow novel really wasn't the full plan...because there wasn't one at the time. The Doctor's line to Davros about being "not just another Time Lord", which I wrote off as just him being the Doctor, was basically it, kind of like "the question that shouldn't be answered". I could be wrong, though.

[@peterthompson1989]

@@ShadowWingTronix yeah it's conflicting really as I've seen stuff showing the other was going to turn out to be a human who discovered time and space travel and landed on gallifrey among other stuff. Interestingly a lot of Chibnall's stuff seemed borrowed from across the show

[@callummoore6962]

For me canon only matters on the show which is why I am still not a big fan of "The Timeless Children" as a retcon. The expanded universe stuff while offers plenty of great stuff and given the likes of Colin Baker and Paul McGann plenty of material to further define their Doctors in ways the show never did.....I honestly just see as "fun piece of nonsense" in which it being canon really does not matter.

[@retrogiftsuk4812]

Franchises like Star Wars need canon as they revolve around universe-wide issues such as the "Empire". The downside here is that you end up with politic heavy exposition (scenes where politicians stand around talking about trade agreements etc) because everything has to tie together. (For instance. If 2 planets were at war, and now they're not, you're going to have to explain it) Dr Who on the other hand has always had a "Monster of the week" (or series) premise. So the need for canon is not essential. Canon restrains storytelling. "Nope he can't meet Cleopatra, he's already met her in a book. And he does meet her at a younger age, he can't reveal he's the Doctor else it will contradict the book where they meet seemingly for the first time". Even long running soap operas struggle with canon. I remember Neighbours having houses with dynamic numbers of bedrooms. Need somewhere for a new character to stay, just invent a spare bedroom... and that's before you start on changing actors for the same character...

[@poop3882]

The vast majority of sources agreed that the Doctor was a Gallifreyan and a Time Lord, (TV: The War Games, et al.) but a few suggested that they had different origins. Various accounts identified the Doctor as being fully or partially human, (PROSE: Doctor Who and the Daleks, TV: Doctor Who, et al.) having once been the Timeless Child from an unknown species, (TV: The Timeless Children) or as the product of still stranger origins. (PROSE: The Death of Art, Sometime Never..., et al.)

[@leon46295]

I always just assumed there was multiple canons like multiple timelines

[@thekandyman.]

This is why doctor who is the best. Cannon is literally whatever you want it to be

[@kryten1016]

I think doctor who could construct a great canon, since time is wibbly wobbly it can change, allowing for some discontinuity to be explained. However, changes such as the origin of the doctor would be much harder to explain, hence why I don’t think the excuse of ‘oh you can do what you like in this show’ doesn’t really excuse it to me. As although your imagination is a limit, it isn’t the only limit, the other being making the writing satisfying. Such as missy’s ark being erased after series 12, not even the extended big Finnish media can making it a very satisfying change.

[@kryten1016]

I think doctor who could construct a great canon, since time is wibbly wobbly it can change, allowing for some discontinuity to be explained. However, changes such as the origin of the doctor would be much harder to explain, hence why I don’t think the excuse of ‘oh you can do what you like in this show’ doesn’t really excuse it to me. As although your imagination is a limit, it isn’t the only limit, the other being making the writing satisfying. Such as missy’s ark being erased after series 12, not even the extended big Finnish media can making it a very satisfying change.

[@NileSWPhotography]

I disagree. There should be SOME rules and the writers are literally retconning all the good ones

[@jakewhiston6461]

​@@NileSWPhotographythat is true however it also means that future writers who don't like modern stories like the metacrisis, the timeless child or the flux can just write it out of the show. Both are in their own way canon but you can choose which one to follow. I hate the timeless child personally and most of chibnals run so I just cut it completely out and it doesn't mess with my canon views

[@jakewhiston6461]

​@@NileSWPhotographythe rules that should be in place shouldn't necessarily be story based but character based. Which is why the timeless child doesn't work because it interferes with the character too much but revising satellite five in expanded media or the family of blood can add too but also not take away

[@finnstewart4747]

Fitting that you brought the Shalka Doctor up in a video about canon just before the new season.

[@jbanks979]

I think if anything……the lack of cannon is probably this show’s greatest strength? The idea of most well defined creative cannons is that one specific person has set out a fully defined vision of what a show is, and that anyone who departs from that vision is departing from cannon. For any property that has outlasted its creator, you’re left wondering if every new iteration of the show would be fully blessed by the creator to be considered cannon. Doctor who was created to be an educational television show where school teachers would teach history and science. Everyone originally attached to the show would be gone within 4 years. Since that time the only rules of the show are “box going in space and time” and “usually travels with humans”. It allows every person who takes the show over next to have their way with the show and do whatever they want to do. Is it a gothic horror show about classic movie monsters? Is it a comedy? Is it a child’s detective series? Is it a Christmas Day tradition? Yes yes yes and yes.

[@TemporalsonToys]

You’re confusing canon with continuity. The show doesn’t have a consistent continuity however it does have a canon. Canon is basically anything licences by the BBC that they have agreed is part of their doctor who ip.

[@Wolf359inc]

Thank you! Someone has finally said it. I knew this, but couldn’t figure out the express it. Any fictional universe must have some level of canon, and a certain amount of continuity, but these are not the same thing.

[@thepoetoffall7820]

This is the wrong approach to Dr. Who canon. The show is about time travel… EVERYTHING is canon.

[@timecontroller8800]

This is what I like about doctor who is that it has so much variety and with all the expanded media you can kind of pick and choose what u think is canon and in cases like VNA human nature and Mary Shelly why can they all be right in mind that kind of makes doctor who a little bit more fun yea it’s not coherent and the rules are beyond disintegrated but it ads a fun aspect to it

[@triplejazzmusicisall1883]

Who would have thought just four months from when this video was made that the 2024 season would feature the Shalka Doctor? I just make up my own canon seeing that is what the makers seem to do these days.

[@michaelhodges241]

I personally like the idea that everything is canon unless it is retconned by the tv series. Tv series first, then everything else.

[@ravenwilder4099]

Thing is, for most franchises, it's taken as a given that expanded universe content is not canon. Like, there were a bunch of books, comics, and video games based on The X-Files, but fans all implicitly understood that the people making the TV show weren't paying attention to what happened in the tie-in media and aren't going to bother keeping continuity with it. That's pretty much how Doctor Who operates - the TV writers may sometimes be inspired by expanded universe ideas, but they're not going to write the show as though any of that stuff was set in the same universe. Star Wars trying to have all its media be consistent with each other - that's the exception rather than the norm.

[@shemdellashemygd29]

Simple rtd sorted this with one line in the 60th seems it went over everyone's head then.

[@PaulRichards-vz4pl]

Doctor Who is flexible but as Verity Lambert said if you stretch it too far you could break it. When fans say you can do anything with it that isn’t true. Can you imagine the Doctor being played by a horse? Or the theme tune no longer sounding anything like it usually does? There’s certain things that have worked for years without tampering with them. I feel that saying anything can happen gives an excuse for writers like RTD to get sloppy. I feel the reason RTD is going for fantasy is due to the fact he’s not a great science fiction writer. Toby Whithouse should have been approached to make new Who. Apparently he was never asked! RTD doesn’t wrap up story arcs very well. Mentioning Bad Wolf nearly every episode before the final can hardly be called a story arc. Then there’s the dreadful Last of the Time Lords where the Doctor is turned into Gollum stuffed in a bird cage and resurrected by communal thought! Terrible. RTD is vastly overrated.

[@nancyfarmer4289]

Speaking of the tune, it’s amazing the number of variations composed that have fit the Doctor’s personalities and character of the times and plots, but still manage to keep the original melodic characteristics and structure - and then add the visuals to that! Composers are good at ‘canon’ imo.

[@theoncomingstorm7903]

The thing is most of the benefits you listed of having a canon also apply (often better) to having a continuity like RTD1s rather than a canon, whereas most of the detriments of having no-canon are situational to how DW is currently handled and not necessarily true. Lore books'd be trivially easy these days by just using the TARDIS Wiki and adding your own stuff to bridge the gaps. The main exception I have is the fragmentation of rights which I believe is genuinely a good thing for both collaborative fiction and preventing the BBC pointlessly erasing large chunks of the mythos as 'not canon' because they don't actually hold the majority rights for Doctor Who as a multimedia franchise. (And quite frankly I think the true final form of Doctor Who is as a mythos belonging to everyone rather than a locked down 'property').

[@beatrixwickson8477]

My canon order is TV > audio-dramas > novels > comics. Where TV episodes conflict, the one I enjoyed more is the canon version. The trick is I don't expect anyone else's head-canon to align with mine. Maybe canon-relativity is a suitable term.

[@justanormalhumanbeing1903]

doctor who expanded media's....fine... but did we rlly need half the stuff we got from big finish?

[@daiujin]

So many alternate timelines, it's all one big multiwhonuverse Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey, everything can be explained in a jiffy with a little imagination.

[@raccoonja5905]

Star Wars canon was just as much of a mess as Doctor Who, before Disney made everything besides the movies and Clone Wars into legends. And it will probably be just as messy again in a couple of years. That's just the nature of such a big universe with so many authors. As soon as the people checking what is and what isn't published make miss something there will crop up more and more contradictions. The only ways to stop this would be for every author to know every story or for new storys not beeing able to use established characters, places and/or ereas.

[@nancyfarmer4289]

I believe original Star Trek eg had a writers’ guide. I don’t know if the following series followed that or had their own revised one. This is an interesting conversation, everyone.

[@gazda69]

Some Star Wars fans don't know how good they have it. The franchise has TWO official canons, double of what most franchises do, and yet many of them still find a way to complain.

[@raccoonja5905]

@@gazda69 Yeah, they even have legends books still in print and let Timothy Zahn write canon books that also work with his legends books. I don't think they did that well immediatly after buying Star Wars, but today Star Wars extended media is great.

[@VioletLilikoi]

This was a great explanation! Kind of puts things into perspective seeing the bigger picture. I actually like the idea of picking and choosing preferences cause there is some content that’s just not my taste. Makes it less stressful.

[@OMGg4m3r]

I mean, isn't the real reason doctor who has no canon due to the bbc not owning half of the content so they technically don't have the rights to declare it canon?

[@tyherty45]

I’m a trek fan and like the idea to each episodes is in its own little universe. I also like Morrison and Waid’d DC hypertime model… frankly cannon is only as useful when it adds to the story telling. Dr Who can change its own metaphysics in the middle of an episode… and I love it!

[@ZEROninja0]

I really enjoyed the video, but I'd like to indulge in making some "hardcore fannish" observations for no good reason whatsoever. On the point of it being hard to imagine the events of Human Nature could happen twice: Paul Cornell who wrote both the book and TV versions disagrees. He'd long voiced he thought there was space for both with how subject to change time was in Doctor Who and how much the Doctor's past explicitly changes at times. Then in 2020 for the Doctor Who Lockdown stuff he wrote the Shadow trilogy which is explicitly a sequel to both versions at once and address a little how that happens. It's in a way that can similarly apply to any such situation like the Star Beast. On the point of there's never been a single figure or organisation specifying what licensed material is canon: 1) There are actually a minority of instances of this, but they are definitely the exception rather than the rule. When Big Finish first got the DW license, a representative of the BBC did state the audios were canon in Doctor Who Magazine. 2) When the Doctor Who Adventure Games were released a representative of the BBC stated they were canon. 3) More recently RTD and Pete McTighe have both stated that Tales of the TARDIS is canon How much credibility you want to give to any of those statements is up to you, but it does on very rare occasion happen. On the point of it all fitting together, as you address in the time travel shenanigans puts a lot of that up in the air anyway, but there intentionally are several explanations both in the show itself and expanded media that can and are intended to explain this stuff away. Writers often point to the Time War as one example. More recently RTD said the Toymakers line about making a jigsaw of the Doctor's history was explicitly written to give fans who didn't like the Timeless Child or some other lore points and comfort that it can be an explicit change if they prefer it not having always been true. With no shortage of other points. Also as a final point, when talking about stuff like RTD1 era with SJA and Torchwood as well as stuff like Big Ben and Downing Street, that's kinda conflating continuity with canon when they're different concepts. But that's hardly a big deal. Well that ended up longer than I expected, thanks to anyone who read.

[@rgreed20081]

Basically I am going to blame the Great Time War for messing up the Canon. The only part of the new canon which represents the Mess Up Canon is the Fugitive Doctor. The existence of the Fugitive Doctor may have been a result of the Great Time War. Some events which occur in the Classic Doctor Who series were erased to the point that they have never happen. During the Great Time War, a lot of races became extinct. Some were erased from existence.

[@coruscanta]

Honestly, with the amount of times the universe has been reset or timelines undone, it’s hard to imagine there’s not plenty of room for most or all of any contradictions.

[@Lordgrayson]

If there is no real Canon in doctor who then I can just say that the entire Chris Chibnall era is non-canon to me, None of it happened it was just some alternate universe What if scenario :)

[@theshouldycast8428]

I'm a massive warhammer 40k fan and the first thing that you learn is that canon doesn't matter when you have a universe that big and with so much shenaniganry going on. Doctor who should be the same really, theres so much scope for storytelling that the story should be fluid and engaging rather than adhering to a rigid set of rules.

[@joshuamulford9908]

Can you do review on Torchwood S3 Children of earth because I think its one of the darkest series of Doctor Who universe.

[@pertuk]

Are the Weekly/Monthly/Magazine strips no longer canon as the Doctor met the Meep and the Wrath in them but on screen it appears to be the Doctor's first encounter with the Meep

[@VikingSchism]

Doctor Who not having a canon is its greatest strength - it's a toybox for writers, where they never have to worry about putting the toys back in the box unless they want to. If the stories are good, that's what counts. Not having a canon doesn't preclude the show from establishing continuity, as you pointed out with the first Davies era, but it also doesn't have to feel beholden to that either. I truly believe the fact that we can even get stuff like Faction Paradox spinning into its own self-sustaining series removed from Doctor Who out of a mostly forgotten run of Doctor Who books in the 90s is incredible. How many other franchises have things like that?

[@mareiramv]

RTD said they never used the word canon in the production office ever. The problem with that might be the characters storylines... Why should I care if Adric dies, if I can just choose that that didn't happen? Or maybe, to me, Adric never existed, because I haven't watched the classic who. If there's no canon, everything counts, right? Maybe, to me, the fourteenth Doctor found Romana II and they are now traveling to fight Missy and stop her from destroying the Daleks or something. The way I view Doctor Who, personally, is multiverse. Now more than ever, since RTD talked about this during the explanation of the bigeneration.

[@EmpireGamingWynter]

I'm leaving this comment before the end of the video so I don't know if Harbo will address this later but there's an obvious answer here It's all Canon. Even the contradictory stuff. And no I don't mean alternate time lines. It's a show based on TIME TRAVEL!!! Time travel means changing the future. There's tons of events we've seen or heard that can just have been changed by something else in the past due to some sort of butterfly effect. We know Doctor Who's time travel changes the future rather than creating alternate timelines as with something like Dragon Ball. The Doctor can have met Beep the Meep twice. He could have battled the Weeping Angels and still not known much about them later. You don't know what time travel shenanigans lead to something which lead to something else which lead to something else that wiped the original events out of the timeline. We don't even need to see the events thar would have changed it. It's a butterfly effect. That's how it works in my head anyway

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

I'm a Star Trek fan and love the lore, but I also love the more relaxed approach of Doctor Who - once I wrapped my head around it of course! 😂

[@y_fam_goeglyd]

I suppose you could just think of the non-tv stories being AUs. There are so many possibilities when you let yourself accept alternative universes, it removes any new "canon" but you can still enjoy the tales. Just MHO 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@SuperGreg247]

My head canon is that the Doctor can’t always remember the details after enough time/regenerations, that’s how both Human Nature stories especially exist in my mind. By time he’s in his 12th or 13th incarnation he can’t remember if he was 8 or 10 at the time

[@timrob12]

If we really have to find a way to make every inconcistency work, then I'll just like to refer to The Giggle and the line from the Toymaker where he says he made a jigsaw out of the Doctor's history.

[@jeckjeck3119]

In related news: The water is wet.

[@Dante2831]

In other related news: Water is not wet

[@yuri7885]

Water is *NOT* wet!

[@jakewhiston6461]

Waters not wet it makes things wet. Adding water to water doesn't make it more wet it just adds volume therefore not wet

[@jeckjeck3119]

Only whovians would roast me on this, love it! LOL.

[@DanielDiaz-um1xd]

I blame the bottle universe (8th doctor shenanigans incoming)

[@gerardforan2110]

Honestly, the best advice I could give someone about watching Doctor Who from the revival onwards is to not bother after RTD left in 2010 and move onto a consistent sci-fi franchise like Battlestar Galactica, The Expanse, Firefly or even Star Trek (which yes has consistency issues, but almost certainly not to the level of Doctor who). The main reason is RTD didn't just bring back Doctor Who, he made a consistent and believable universe out of it where so many things mattered and tied together. Then fucking Moffat comes along and goes "bleh, fuck continuity, lets make a weird fairy tale show which doesn't develop any important plot threads" rather than i don't know......AN ACTUAL SCI-FI NARRATIVE like RTD worked on.

[@legobi_wan_kenobi]

nonsense. I show doesn't need a consistent continuity in order to be enjoyable. That might be the 'best advice' for you, but if anything that just illustrates your inflexibility. A franchise having continuity issues does not make it bad, sometimes canon is a thing made up by fools who are trying to make a story fit into pre-programmed boxes that it was never intended to fit into. Strict adherence to canon is obsessive and pedantic. Not to mention the fact that Doctor Who is a time-travel show, in which inconsistencies and changes to history are an in-universe phenomenon.

[@gerardforan2110]

@@legobi_wan_kenobi I'm definitely not advocating every little detail to be consistent, but what I'm saying is that after RTD left Doctor Who decided that rather then build up a sense of continuity and storytelling that would have been highly rewarding for long time viewers, the show started to pick up and drop plot points like they were nothing. A massive example of this is the Pasternoster Gang and The Silence, both treated as key aspects for a certain time, but then are either completely forgotten about in the formers case or forgotten about until relevant to a certain story in which they're completely undercooked and there's more of a feeling of being rushed out. RTD's era had story arcs and consistent story elements that kept the viewer tied, while not relying on people having to see every story, but was considered a reward for long term viewers as well as keeping rewatch value in place.

[@mayotango1317]

Frankly not even the classic series needed "continuity", even the origin of the Daleks contradicts itself as do the dates of UNIT. RTD is an overrated mediocre writer. Moffar is a real Doctor Who writer.

[@gerardforan2110]

@@mayotango1317 Look it ultimately comes down to opinion, but I feel like in terms of contemporary television RTD very much succeeded with long term storytelling. Now I'm not against episodic storytelling, but Moffats storytelling was frankly messy especially in Season 6 which tried to create a long term story but failed horrifically.

[@mayotango1317]

@@gerardforan2110 And RTD fail in every season finale with his deux ex Machinas. I hate his Buffy style for Doctor Who.

[@Joselitty]

I like to say that the biggest strength of Doctor Who is that it can do anything, always changing. But then I also say that its biggest weakness is the fact that it CAN do anything, rules are nonexistent.

[@etherraichu]

I use Evangelion canon rules, as much as possible. Top tier is the TV show. Everything on the TV show is considered canon. If there's any conflict between any other media or information sources, the stuff thats happened in the show wins the conflict. Next, things said by the creators, because they would know. Its not quite as good as stuff that's on the show, but its pretty close. Finally, the supplemental material. This is things like comics and games and the like. These things are considered canon until either the TV show or the creators contradict them. If a comic says one thing and a show says another, the show is always right.

[@adamstewart9052]

7:20 It would be 4 incarnations ago because of the War Doctor.

[@mrdoctorgilmore]

Doctor who has so much creative potential that it has the freedom to have a fluid continuity so it's easier than other franchises to slot expanded material alongside the TV series. However I feel that a lot of fans do struggle with this when rules are "broken", continuity errors or open ended plot lines may seem stressful which is a shame that sometimes we find it difficult to enjoy certain elements of the franchise if it can't be placed on a hypothetical timeline, for instance as a Colin Baker fan I accept Big Finish as canon, but often feel disheartened when others talk down about the audios, so used to seek out references in the main show for validation, overtime I've tried to grow out of that mindset and not take it as seriously. I feel Moffat's sentiment openly acknowledging how time can be rewritten does provide some degree of an in-universe explanation. Therefore everything is canon, and plot holes are simply the results of history being rewritten.

[@Leon_Tyler]

I just think whatever happens in the show is canon. If another media doesn't conflict with the show, it can be canon. As soon as the show adapts it, it's no longer canon and the show takes precedent. Simple

[@akshaytrayner1960]

Great essay mate but I still enjoy how messy it is more so than star wars

[@novawolf_gaming]

I atleast like that Moffat continued the idea that people should remember but don't because of the cracks in time

[@mayotango1317]

In the RTD era people never remember the dinosaurs in London or the Cybermen in North Pole.

[@novawolf_gaming]

@mayotango1317 Oh sure, there are plenty of things that never got explained but RTD built a universe from his events (kinda too late to mention previous ones) but then Moffat erased that from people's memories through the cracks, atleast it was thought about

[@mayotango1317]

​​​@@novawolf_gamingOr just like that: Ace: But this is Earth, 1963. Well someone would've noticed, I'd have heard about it! The Doctor: Do you remember the Zygon gambit with the Loch Ness monster? Or the Yetis in the underground? Ace: The what? The Doctor: Your species has the most amazing capacity for self-deception, matched only by its ingenuity when trying to destroy itself.

[@novawolf_gaming]

@@mayotango1317 Yeah, I just like that things do sometimes get thought about

[@HeyJay2000]

Unpopular Opinion here, but I think Doctor Who does need a Canon. I think they should have a hard re-structure like Lucasfilm did where they said "The Original 6 movies are Canon and The Clone Wars Animated Series is too. Everything else is Legends now". Cause in my opinion the reason the Canon is so messy is because of lazy writing. Like even today a line would be said or something will happen in a episode that contradicts a previous episode. And I find that annoying cause it would literally take a minute to work out if something like that has happened before, and then they can change a few lines or write a extra few lines to fix it. Like it would have taken a couple of lines to fix the Mary Shelley stuff in The Haunting of Villa Diodati. Like I would have thought that the show would be trying to make things less complicated today, not more complicated. If I was Russell I'd set a Canon that is "All of the Classic Who, Modern Who and Current Who are Canon. Torchwood, SJA, Class are also Canon, with only some of Big Finish being Canon too" Cause it made the Star Wars universe so much easier to understand Cause there was so many new stories created during the 90s before the Prequels happened. 😂😂

[@mayotango1317]

Star Wars sucks.

[@HeyJay2000]

@mayotango1317 Okay, that's not really the point I was making. 😅😅 But yes, I would say that current isn't that good, there is only a few projects I have actually enjoyed since Lucasfilm was bought.

[@alfiedodman5231]

When can we expect the next iceberg video

[@HarboWholmes]

Hopefully next week!

[@_____Neo___]

I mean too be fair ... Time travel does screw with ... Well Time and as such canon is prolly a bunch of timey wimey stuff XD Earth becomes a space fairing Utopia? Well someone stepped on a bug now we got Dot and Bubble XD

[@HereticReborn]

I always think of it as a series for fixed time events that must happen and always do but the paths to travel between them are infinite. So we have all types of possibilities. The other way I thought of it is that the past is just as changeable as the future. Only your present exists. So the doctor’s part is just as fluid as his future. Being a Timelord he somehow experiences them all and creates a set past and future for himself but he may change it when ever. Or outside forces (Toymaker?) may affect it. Maybe that’s what the schism shows - all possible timelines? But yeah, I think no canon works. It stays fluid and the doctor may feel something has changed but he’s so used to it it’s really not meaningful to him anymore.

[@Pooter-it4yg]

I've always held that what's been on TV definitely counts and the rest is your choice. Ignore it or enjoy it as you wish and as interest and time allow. But don't get strident because you've looked at a reprint of a cartoon strip from a mid '70s magazine and others haven't. There's been a natural temptation to include side stuff since 2005 (but it's wisely been applied very sparingly). Of course, the writers these days cut their teeth writing fanfic in zines traded at the Fitzroy and later novels and audio stories during the hiatus. I'm honestly not sure these efforts kept the flame alive and guaranteed the show's return as much as some like to claim. I think it was inevitable in an era fuelled increasingly by reboots and nostalgia. I think this is a fond myth akin to the notion that the show's format allows for boundless creativity. It doesn't really - it's just the same dozen of so stories with different latex and sets. Often done very well but all the same...

[@emperordalek102]

people assume canon is one moving line but its more of a big ball of wibbley wobbly timey wimey stuff

[@cronchyskull]

Canons are for pirate ships, mateys 😎 And this captain travels light on the ocean of total uncertainty.

[@kieranleehamilton]

Harbo, any idea when you’ll start the Season 10 reviews??

[@ishathakor]

i think the lack of a set canon is doctor who's biggest strength tbh. when you get deep into star wars or something there are all these details you kind of just need to know. the fact that doctor who has been following one character over 60 years imo would be extremely detrimental to the show. realistically it's better for it to be the kind of show where you need only the basics (alien with time machine shenanigans) to jump into many if not most episodes. i've watched a bunch of classic era episodes at random and maybe it would have been better if i went in chronological order but just seeing someone who seems to be the companion and going ah ok this is the companion at this time is good enough to still have a great time enjoying the episode. there are a couple of continuing arc ones this approach doesn't really work for (like imagine watched wedding of river song without context.... actually that's a terrible example it would make the same amount of sense that it does with context) but overall it just makes the whole doctor who universe way more approachable. the general rule for showrunners too seems to be "pretend the thing i didn't like never happened" and they mostly build on their own ideas or the ones they really liked from the past. being showrunner would become an impossible task if we were to have a definitive canon. it's best to have a whatever seems most fun approach imo.

[@herrjohnssen]

Mr Bean being the Doctor is 100% Canon to me

[@Danaesthetic]

I tend to treat everything as canon and then use either the time war, the cracks in time, or just time always being in flux as excuses for contradictions.

[@Comicbroe405]

While it is a mess in a way I kinda like that its is, almost endearing. The show's been around for so long is multiple mediums but still keeps adding on stuff.

[@gabriel38g]

We want Canon! ... No, we don't want Canon... I'm so confused! :

[@bobnevermind]

After a show has been around more than about 10 years canon becomes impossible and restricts writers. How could a writer for a show like Star Wars or Star Trek expect to know everything that has happened in expanded media. Its the same with comics. Why reboot every few years and try to explain it. Just tell good stories and the fans wont complain. Tell a bad story then the fans will pour all over it.

[@mayotango1317]

The show had more that 10 years and nobody complains before.

[@KingsNJenssons]

he brought up the thing with dalek universe i cant relate me and mates all got together listen to it had a great time and have no idea what he means it sends you down to that other book

[@Fuges]

For me, I rank canon into “tiers” of how close they are to being the desired canon. S tier is Nuwho, since that (for the most part) has actually tried to be consistent with its lore. Classic Who is a tier below since a lot of stuff was made up as it went (the time lords weren’t a thing until the 2nd doctors last episode) Basically the only times I get annoyed about canon being contradicted is when Nuwho contradicts itself. I only get annoyed at classic who contradictions if Nuwho also reinforced it The timeless child was the source of regeneration? Then how the hell does the untempered schism work? How does river song have regeneration? The fugitive doctor having a police box tardis? Well, nuwho reinforced what we saw in an unearthly child, so that’s definitely what happened. Thus, fugitive’s tardis looking that way is a contradiction The first Doctor saying he’s a human and that he has one heart? Something that contradicts everything established later on? *he never said that, that never happened, shut up.*

[@lp-xl9ld]

I remember hearing a joke around the time of the TV movie: "British Whovians don't think the movie is Canon but American ones do." And now I find out they were both right...or both wrong...

[@localhearthian2387]

Canon? In my Doctor Who? No thanks.

[@Lia-zw1ls7tz7o]

The thumbnail‘s message „Canon isn’t real“ is something that really should be said to some of the Star Trek fans out there who complain about superficial things that allegedly „ruined Star Trek“ 🙄 That’s why I love Doctor Who‘s way of treating Canon by not even caring! 😁

[@ftumschk]

Canonically-speaking, are the expanded media truly valid? Big Finish is arguably the most high-profile of them all, yet its best-sellers only reach an audience of a few thousand. Even the lowest-rated episodes of the TV had an audience of 3 or 4 _million_ on first viewing, already an order of magnitude more than Big Finish or novels. Add to that the many millions more who later caught up with the TV stories on VHS, DVD or streaming platforms, and the expanded media world of audio adventures, comics and novels is minuscule in comparison.

[@nancyfarmer4289]

I have the same problem, probably because I have never read or listened to anything except the tv form.

[@ftumschk]

@@nancyfarmer4289 Don't worry, you're in company with the overwhelming majority! Personally, whilst I'm a huge Big Finish fan, and own a fair number of audios, I'm well aware that it's an extremely small, niche market. When it comes to matters of canonicity, the TV show is where it belongs.

[@jaschul]

The good stories are valid. The bad ones not.

[@Ligmasiggma]

1:50 glop shitto 😂😂😂

[@flyingtardisOfficial]

i'm afraid i have to disagree as there is a canon, but its just wide breasted, and can meld around the TV show, does that mean certain expanded media drops out of the timeline when adapted for the show, yes, but its not to say it didn't happen, it just changed position along the timeline, but that also means 90% of expanded media classes as canon, certain things like the river song diaries can't really work when there is a doctor involved, as its kind of established tennant round 1 is the earliest in the timeline she meets him so meeting the others prior makes little to no sense, well unless we look at biregeneration shenanigans being a thing and havign splitting timelines, but those timelines don't encroach onto our main path i'm on the side of "its all canon unless it doesn't make any sense narratively" so while i dislike the timeless child thing as a "the doctor is the proto-timelord" side of things, i still appreciate the fact that we now no longer know who the doctor truly is, like we could find out their name but it wouldn't change the fact that that could be a given name and not their original name, thus only confidently identifying the post 1st doctor character but thats a single piece in a much larger puzzle, point being narratively while whacky and unpredictable it makes sense for a show about a mystery alien that can regenerate, but having 2 differing encounters of the daleks origins, aswell as having 1 doctor be human and another not, means that the cushing movies logically cannot be canon as it doesn't make sense outside of being a parallel universal constant, but there is nothing saying its not possible to connect it with pete's world, which would make a lot of sense, meaning rose and co could find a tardis just lying about, opening up to them and allowing them all to use it without issue, and somehow incorporating the tardis nugget in a deleted scene, you could bring it alive and make it become a true tardis, however river meeting any doctor pre-9 still canonically makes 0 sense either way, canon is what you make of it, i mean hell the thomas community has 3 main seperate canons (i found like 7) all in the official media and expanded media, so whats to say the franchise can;t have 3 or more? all i know is the main canon modifies and fluctuates around the primary source material, which is the doccy who tv show, in the same veain that thomas canon stems from the RWS, main canons are always formed by the first and primary piece of media, so the dennis and gnasher canon has its routes in the beano, bluey comic strips have their canon in the tv show, its a whole mess but if you know the main canon source, you can fit expanded media around it, even fan content can fit in canon somewhere, all depends what idea are used really, i mean in the RWS (railway series) the books themselves were canon inside themselves, same with the TV show, and considering in remembrance of the daleks the show was being broadcast on tv inside itself, i think being able to refference yourself makes you the main canon source, could it just be a silly fourth wall break? yes, but i do feel it establishes a point of conjecture where you can say this medium is the main canon, and everything else is extra and while most is canon, if the main canon does it then those things done as extra become separate or alternate timelines or they just simply didn't happen or are maybe retellings by a future doctor to a magazine publisher in the 70s, theres all sorts of ways to justify it all, other than things that completely break the timelines, such as river song

[@nancyfarmer4289]

‘Main canons are always formed by the first and primary source of media..” YES well stated. agreed. Except that the first doesn’t always agree with itself. I believe the original purpose of Dr. Who was to teach kids about history? Yet the second story arc was already about Daleks?

[@flyingtardisOfficial]

@nancyfarmer4289 I know it's contradicted itself :P the thing is as the show has had to change and adapt the Canon has too, and with each head showrunner they've had to fix inconsistencies from before, so like time in universe the Canon is in flux, but it doesn't stop it being the primary source.

[@gf1006]

Everything should be canon until the show contradicts it. For example the doctor has canonically only met the toymaker twice now, and it should be taken as such

[@benelby3480]

Tv and movie with the actual Doctor Who yes

[@quangobaud]

"loose canon" 🔥

[@Riprocproductions95]

For me....all expanded media is cannon until it is contradicted in the main show

[@dr.mund0339]

In my cannon the doc died when the female doc came its just fan fick now

[@conkubar4029]

your content is good

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

There is a canon, as in there are core foundations of the show which are not to be touched: 1-14 are the same person Timelords regenerate Tardis goes through time Davros created the Daleks Time war happened The Doctor has always been the Doctor and not some god like being from another universe who has infinite regenerations. You need some form of canon to ground the whole franchise, somethings are set in stone and never should be tampered with.

[@nurimep]

Next vid better be good, Harbo...

[@triplejazzmusicisall1883]

Yay I got the 1000 thumb up click! I m such a tragic individual.

[@TIMWELLS-lv5oo]

COULDNT AGREE MORE . IN FACT , THE WORD CANON IS OFTEN USED AS A BULLY TACTIC, IMHO.

[@CashelOConnolly]

I think all this canon obsession is nonsense. It’s for people who don’t really enjoy Doctor Who but people who like to pick on things to moan about 🙄🔷🔷🔷🔷

[@timelordsalad]

Well I don’t agree that canon is just for people who like to pick on things to moan about or don’t really enjoy Doctor Who. For some, it’s really fun and enjoyable to consider how certain things from canon or continuity inform the decisions that characters can make or to recognize references from expanded media in the show. Just because you don’t share the same perspective doesn’t mean you can rag on other people