Does a $25,000 Cinema Camera need a IR filter?

Link to 5 worst things about V-raptor: • Top 5 WORST Things Abo...
I was noticing some pollution on both our RED Komodo and Red V-raptor which i've never seen before on our DSMC2 Helium. I did this test to figure out why..
Since Komodo is the same sensor all aspects of the raptor should apply to komodo.
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[@phfx]

A few people reached out to me about this as to why the NDs were polluting the color. It's not so much that the camera needs an IR filter, there's one already in the camera. Nobody should be using older dye based filters for professional work at this point as the newer rare earth filters from last decade have improved things drastically on this front. For experienced film people, when stronger densities of dye based filters were needed we often used a hot mirror in tandem to correct the image, which was even more relevant if filming in a hot environment. Which is moderately how we arrived at the modern ND filters approach with this electroplating layering of the rare earth materials. Much more consistent and controllable than the older baked dye approach.

[@TheObsessiveDP]

Appreciate your insight Phil!

[@alexlubensky]

And that's a typical IR pollution. Your thoughts are totally correct, the old Schneider filter was made for film in mind that had no issues with IR, like modern digital sensors. Old ND's are kind of funky to use with digital nowadays, I suggest moving to FSND or at least IR ND's (FSND cut on all wavelengths, IR will cut only after 700nm for example, thus greens etc might still have some minor IR contamination still even with IR ND). Basically every manufacturer battles it in their own way, depending on conditions one can see that basically any modern digital camera can suffer from IR pollution - I've seen it on Alexa (Mini, XT, Studio), I've seen it on Venice 1 etc. Venice has IR-cut built in the internal ND's, Alexa has it over or under the OLPF (actually two separate filters). DSMC2 and DSMC1 Dragon have drastically changed how much IR was to let through the filter after the MX having none or almost none IR protection, but several DSMC2 brains were so green (like Helium actually) on tint balance, that most of people I know used a +10 Magenta correction all the time. I suppose they have decided to dial that out a bit, thus letting some more of the IR through OLPF on DSMC3

[@TheObsessiveDP]

Interesting. Thank you for this detailed breakdown.

[@alexlubensky]

@@windcine2388 ARRI are using FSND filters in their internal filter systems, despite they have a separate IR-cut over the sensor itself. Modern Red cams cut IR much more than Venice 1/2/Burano. I can't imagine any occasion where IRND is better suited for a job than any FSND.

[@alexlubensky]

@@windcine2388 has no IR cut, except for URSA 12K with OLPF (the latest 12k). FSND are always superior to IRND, especially for cameras without IR cut on sensor.

[@alexlubensky]

Schneider have a slightly different take on how much to cut on RHOdiums, but basically it's their own marketing preference in a way not to kill their old IRND line-up (back in the day, now it's EOL'd), it's not about something the technology can't do, it's about saving older products that are already manufactured on a show booth. Read the ARRI white paper for a better understanding of how the technology of ND filters manufacturing works. It's like comparing a 64nm processor to a 7nm, dye-based filters are a dinosaur nowadays, it's time for coatings. Also, it's much better to use an FSND + Hotmirror, than a dye-based IRND. But I've never ever ran into occasion where Arri FSND or Schneider RHOdium FSND introduced any IR pollution on RED MX sensor, and I've shot a lot using those filters. As I've already said above, you're getting a much cleaner color using FSND compared to a dye-based IRND. And by saying much - it's like a shooting on a totally different camera.

[@alexlubensky]

@@windcine2388 schneiderkreuznach.com/application/files/3716/8024/5279/Fact_Sheet_RHOdium_FSND_Schneider-Kreuznach.pdf

[@ScottBalkum]

V-Raptor does have an OLPF. It is attached to the sensor. If you want to know if there is IR pollution, take the ND out completely and change your shutter. That’s it. That’s your OLPF. Everything else is your ND filters. I can tell you Firecrest are some solid NDs with very little color shift.

[@TheObsessiveDP]

The but the Schneider 2.1 on the helium did not have the color shift like it did on the raptor.

[@ScottBalkum]

@@TheObsessiveDP Slightly different OLPF than Helium. Which will affect the color shifts differently. I mean, rule #1 is don’t add any color to your light path unless you intend to. Adding an ND with a known color shift to your light path will change color. Slight differences in OLPFs can handle those color shifts differently.

[@TheObsessiveDP]

Interesting@@ScottBalkum

[@JulioBHJ]

I know why I already had the Schneider RHOdium ND filters on my wish list. 😄 They are just awesome!

[@sergiofilmmaker94]

The Vaxis IRND filters for the Tilta Mirage matte box are really good and they only cost 50 bucks.

[@andrew_maccoll]

Firecrest offer super slim IRND at an affordable price point for quality glass so you know…

[@maproductions8495]

Bro I had this brain fart last week when I switched OLPF on my Gemini and was wondering why my Komodo has no OLPF anymore thanks for pointing this out

[@Franckystudios]

Did you black balance/Shading?

[@jedgould5531]

Yes, no one wants their trees to look like squirtbutt. If you can’t be bothered with scripts, try to learn the criteria of editing - to the point of intuition: what makes a point clear and what hampers the message. Before they are uttered, you must be clear forming your own statements. Admittedly, I don’t fully understand how ND affects color (I thought neutral meant neutral). The message I got - besides how not to record sound in a light breeze - is that the Red brand is no guarantee of true color. Because of a visual disability, I favor high saturation. Thanks for the info.

[@ScottBalkum]

Also, you are just applying color shifted NDs to a camera. It will do funny things and shift color. Also, Helium is rather green to begin with. And which OLPF do you have installed on your Helium?

[@TheObsessiveDP]

Helium has the standard OLPF. What do you mean by color shifted NDs?

[@ScottBalkum]

@@TheObsessiveDP Almost all ND filters have a color shift that happens due to the nature of the coatings. The higher the quality coatings the less color shift. The stronger the ND, the higher the color shift can be. If you look at ND test comparisons on youtube, you’ll see how they shift. Some brands shift more than others. Formatt Hitech FireCrest have exceptionally low color shift. Breakthrough also have low shift. When you stack, you are adding color shift of each filter to the other. That’s a trade off.

[@scottflyger432]

Could you stack your existing ND's behind the FSND to cut IR? Interested to see if that would work.

[@TheObsessiveDP]

Great thought! I would assume it would work but haven't tested this!

[@DRAMAFLS_official]

So I would think the white balance are the same 😂

[@ScottBalkum]

3rdly, (Sorry, I keep coming up with things to say), what color settings are you using in Resolve? What gamma? IF you have BT.1886, you are going to see lots of funkiness.

[@TheObsessiveDP]

I used the standard IPP2 pipeline. Isn't BT.1886 part of that?

[@ScottBalkum]

@@TheObsessiveDP Yes, but it isn’t a display gamma. There’s 100 ways of setting up your colorspace/timelines and they aren’t all wrong. Try this, Project settings: Davinci YRGB Timeline colorspace davinci wide gamut output colorspace rec.709 gamma 2.4 Set REDRaw codec defaults to: RedWidegamutRGB RedLog3g10 In the color page: Node1 Add Colorspace Transform RedWidegamutRGB RedLog3g10 Davinci wide gamut Davinci intermediate Last node Add Colorspace Transform Davinci wide gamut Davinci intermediate Rec.709 Gamma 2.4 Doing this will give you a pretty different look than what you’re used to but very accurate color to what your eyes saw when shooting.

[@TheObsessiveDP]

@@ScottBalkum Awesome! I will try this out soon.

[@SamueleApperti]

solid ! 😀@@ScottBalkum

[@cogmission1]

After reading Scott Balkum's explanation, why didn't you go back and add an addendum to your initial reaction in this review? This seems no longer valid..?

[@ScottBalkum]

Ok, one last comment! :) DSMC2 can have 1 of 3 OLPFs installed, low light (tons of IR), skintone (very little IR) and standard which has a slight amount of IR. I suspect you have standard in Helium but also possible to have Skin Tone. Which would account for some funkiness as well. Also, to be fair, you aren’t using the same lens on each camera. Each lens has color shift. It all adds up.

[@TheObsessiveDP]

Fair point about the lens, however they looked only slightly different with the rhodium filter and massively different with the ND 2.1.

[@ScottBalkum]

@@TheObsessiveDP It is merely a point of contention. Its the least worrisome of the differences though as those lenses are fairly color matched, but, like I said in reply #2846 adding color shifts will drastically change color - only kidding about #2846. I did comment a ton on your video :)

[@TheObsessiveDP]

No worries at all. Always down to learn. I'm still wondering why the shift was so drastic with the ND 2.1 between the cameras while at the same settings. Does it have something to do with the color science? @@ScottBalkum

[@ScottBalkum]

@@TheObsessiveDP No. Color science is a misnomer in a raw camera. IPP2 is like a LUT, but much more complicated. But if you notice, you can change from IPP2 to any other previous image pipeline. And, the original RED One can use the new IPP2 (in post only) and it will benefit. If you want to make the best sandwich in the world, you need some bread. Think of IPP2 as a recipe for bread. There have been many recipes over the years but as you learn, solve problems, adapt to situations, you adjust and tweak the recipe. IPP2 is simply the very best and latest recipe for bread from RED. IPP2 is the tweaked and refined foundation by which the rest of the sandwich is laid upon. If you’re gonna be the Obsessive DP, let’s get your extremely obsessed!!! IPP2 makes all the RED sensors more accurate and easier to get the most natural look from them. If you want o understand what is truly happening, Go to your local Walmart… I know, I know, but let’s consider it a field trip of a century. Wear your best shorts with holes, Crocs with long socks and a hat that hasn’t been seen in 30 years. Bring a friend. You’ll need them in a minute. They can dress to impress. Go to the sunglasses section. Grab the coolest sunglasses you can find and put them on. Now stare into the eyes of your friend and make them truly uncomfortable. Tell them not to worry, this is for science… But, most importantly, look at their skin tone on their face. Take the glasses off and compare. Their skin tone shifted when you wore them. Now, pick up a pair of those “As seen on TV” Blueblockers that almost certainly are sitting there. Put them on and look at your friend’s skin. Take them off and on. The skin is different. These are drastic color shifts. Now look through both of them stacked on top of each other. Take it 1 step further, swap the glasses and place the one you had in front into the back. You would think they would be the same, but there are slight differences. Now, let’s REALLY enjoy Walmart and take those 2 sunglasses and find some random person with lighter or darker skin. Do the same test. to keep their attention, ask them to tell you which ones look the best on you. This will keep them gazing into your eyes, deeply. If you are paying close attention, you will notice that the skin tones of the 1st person and the 2nd person are affected slightly differently. Now head over to the cosmetics section where there will be some amazing mirror with beautiful mismatched tungsten lights so you can see yourself. Look at your skin tone with each of them. Each of them are different based on the base color you are looking at, the color and quality of light coming to the skin which in turn reflects and glows back towards your eyes, or the camera sensor with subsurface scattering. All of that was just to see if you’d go to Walmart… but honestly, you mostly likely would be able to follow without the field trip, but wouldn’t it be fun? Obsessive right? Let’s see that field trip. All in all, this is to demonstrate that the simplest thing we think should have very little effect on what reaches the sensor is all based on the surroundings and every single thing between what we’re looking at and the sensor. NDs, lens, OLPFs, etc are all in between. The differences are all compounded by the order and the variances of those individual pieces. The, throw in the improvements to how light is gathered in newer sensors, the bayer pattern, the photo site size, sensitivity, the gain circuitry, etc. This is why you can’t really compare the 2 that you did and get a similar result. The closest you could get would be to change OLPFs in your Helium and use everything else the same, that tree will look different with each OLPF. I applaud you for always learning.. I too share this trait. Its the best way we improve and become obsessive!

[@TheObsessiveDP]

@@ScottBalkum I really appreciate your thorough insightful response. Very well articulated and educational! Bravo sir!

[@scottievee330]

Obsessive is not the first thought.

[@wakkowarner8810]

Can’t you just use an IR Trucut 680nm filter by Schneider that’s what I use to fix IR issues with my blackmagic cameras. Unless you get a 6x6 you need to get it used because Schneider stoped making a 4x5.65 version of that filter.

[@TheObsessiveDP]

Beautiful. Thank you

[@beserkking]

I'm probably asking for to much or you maybe under contract but would you be wiling to make a video regarding the disband of team edge i and a few others have expressed that we feel there is more to the story. The team edge had the potential to continue even if the original three retired in my and other humble opinion there is a multitude of ideas and collaborations that can be done even if yall made the same games but with new cast members new blood new jokes new ambience new diversity the edge universe could have had other group oriented join in you have NODE, THE BOYS, SIDE MEN yall had a few people come over and that was awesome like markiplire would mat and the other two be ok with allowing new cast members take the wheel i feel like Mat wanted things to be absolutely perfect an put a lot of breaks and barriers but i feel like you just need to jump into the void and explore new things

[@TheObsessiveDP]

Nah. There's no conspiracy here. Just a channel where KZbin views couldn't sustain it anymore.

[@beserkking]

@TheObsessiveDP you mean like payment wise? Wait, also, who's getting the payment when you join the channels membership 🤔and I do see that yall used a lot of resources and staff maybe yall could have asked the audience for help buying stuff like nerf darts, paint, toys etc that way the cost could be reduced maybe even hold like events where people and fans could come out and try the challenges like a theme park almost entrance fees and merch. Do you see in the foreseeable future of them make some what of a comeback even if it's like a video once or twice a year

[@moviereview-rw2xs]

but i like helium green and skin tone

[@lowIQstuff]

camera companies should just release cameras with a big red / orange hue tilt and price it aggressively. Then youtubers pick it up and say "i LovE wHaT thEy DiD tO tHe ColOr SciEnCe!!!!" and recommend their audience the cameras = profit $$

[@nickdual]

I subscribed

[@IRoseSpidey]

I hope everyone is doing awesome and safe day! 😃💙 #NotificationSquad