Does KinnPorsche Romanticize Abuse?

[@yeosangmybeloved]

I never thought of Vegas and Pete's relationship as being "romantic", which is why I was extremely disappointed at the very end of the series when suddenly they were together. I really think that if Vegas had just died when he got shot in the last episode, it would have been a perfect ending to their relationship arc (if you want to even call it that). If Vegas had died in that moment, I think it would have given closure to not only his own character, but Pete's as well. From the short time we see them spend at the safehouse, we learn about the issues between Vegas and his father which gives us an explanation as to why he acts the way he does, and I think in the final episode where he sees his father die, he runs away distraught, not knowing what to do anymore now that he doesn't have *his* abuser, which was the only person giving him any kind of purpose (other than Pete I guess) up until that point. I think if Vegas had died, it would have definitely been a tragic ending to his story, but a much more sensible, and frankly, a quite deserved one in my opinion). And for Pete (who was my favourite character by the way), I think Vegas' death would have set him free and given him the ending he truly deserved, one where he can finally realize where his real purpose lies; with his friends and loved ones, rather than in the hands of his abuser. Vegas and Pete's story could have been a much larger commentary about the cycle of familial, psychological, and sexual abuse, which could have even given me the bearings to describe this series as being "beyond it's genre", but sadly, it is a repeat of the same old BL abuse-to-romance relationship story. Of course, that's not to say that I totally hated this series, I actually really enjoyed quite a few things about it, and I think certain aspects were done really well. However, when it comes to the Vegas and Pete story, it was just such an awful decision on the writer's part. (Loved this video by the way, excellent work!)

[@jamiesilver7401]

In my opinion, I don't think the series romanticized abuse. In fact I thought they did much better than most series at handling the topics. I do think the whole Vegas and Pete thing could have been handled a bit better. They did a decent job portraying them considering how messed up in the head both of them are, and the fact that due to Thai copyright laws, they can't change stuff without the consent of the authors. The novel however was definitely abuse romanticization, and to a disgusting level. It was also just terribly written in general, like hands down the worst book I have ever had the displeasure of reading. Personally I think it was a miracle that a show this good came out of a book that terrible. The some of the fandom are also 1000% to blame for the romanticized abuse. I will admit that I enjoyed the VegasPete storyline, but not because I thought it was a cute relationship or something similar like some people apparently did. I saw so many people acting like they were the peak of romantic love, and it was pretty disturbing tbh.

[@OO-xv3ys]

This! I couldn't fathom why people thought VP were the epitome of romance for some reason. A psychopath who tortured his captive is what counts as romance now?

[@johnmaster3748]

What is the basis for the statement about Thai copyright laws? Typically, when an author sells film/television rights, the contract spells out how much leeway producers have to alter the source material and whether the original author has a veto power. Essentially, they sell their interests to the studio (not the literary interest. Just the film interests.) J.K. Rowling had enough gravity that Warner Brothers acceded to her vision in order to win the property. Usually, book authors lack the pull to dictate terms. Why is it different in Thailand?

[@sprinkles4375]

I agree. There were portions of the novel that I could not stomach or get through. Vegas of the novel is irredeemable and Pete falling in love with him was just not believable. Some sections were down right disturbing. I wondered what kind of brain could come up with that story.

[@milusiakr]

In my opinion, the series definitely romanticises toxic relationships, and, kind of as an extension of that, also abusive behaviour. I can't really detach one from the other and analyse them separately. Vegas and Pete's relationship is textbook toxic. With or without the bizarre hospital scene, the way it was developed and framed as this dangerous, but ultimately passionate and sexy thing, it made the whole situation seem like a fantasy you want to grow into a romantic relationship (which it eventually did). It's the obvious disregard for aftermath of abuse that worries me in this show. It's almost like, oh, you were drugged and taken advantage of, or you were drunk and almost taken advantage of, or you were tortured and taken advantage of? Well tough shit, here's a sexy scene right after, or a blink-and-you'll-miss-it remorse moment, and let's move on to other stuff with no long-term consequences of those traumatic events. I think shifting the blame away from the production and onto the fans is not the answer here, and it lets the series creators off the hook too easily. They might not have explicitly stated "look, this is how it's going to be, we'll make these traumas sexy and glamorous and you'll enjoy it". But the way they framed the conversation around it, and what they implicitly suggested by brushing those situations off, or quickly segueing into sexy scenes, or adding that ridiculous post-credit? It wasn't accidental and it didn't start with the audience.

[@area17alien]

imo they did romanticized abuse big time. vegas assaulted porsche multiple times and fans downplayed it like its no biggie. as a person who was sexually assaulted it was traumatic for me. when i expressed it somewhere, people were too quick to invalidate me like "no one's forcing you" "then stop watching" "it's even wild in the novel lol stay away" it's not about me watching it or not. what they did is glorify abuse like it was out of LOVE. which is not okay but it took a while and a taste of their own medicine to understand the problem. that was when the writers turned out to be what they are. those same people were crying in the comments like "protect your artist"

[@mixed13.0]

in my opinion to understand Vegas and Pete's story is to really listen to the conversations they have in ep 11 and 12. I do believe they needed more episodes to solidify this take I have on them, but hear me out: in ep 11, the interaction between Vegas and his dad shows that relationship is very abusive. a mirror to what Pete and his dad had. the difference being Pete had his grandmother to show him love. this is what makes Pete a little bit more mentally stable. I mean Vegas dad told him " you and Macau aren't even worthy being his sons." and his just like okey... Yes... I suck... I deserve to be heat.... I need to do better. Even when Pete asked him why he needs to compare himself to Kinn ? Vegas says "everyone knows I am from the minor family, always under the main family." this shows that Vegas is trapped and can't see a way out, or does not even know if there is a way out, want to see it. when I watch him the only time I see him in his "Element." is when he is cooking, torturing people and taking care of his hedgehog. and from this you can see that torture is the only thing he has that can get his father's love. and I really don't think the main family did not see this. a child, if even a chance as a kid to do something else. he would not be this way. I mean when you look at the main families kids, you can see a difference in there up bringing. Kinn even said he wanted to be a singer and went for competition, and chose to come back after his brother could not be the head of the family. Kim left the house when he didn't want to be there. I don't think Vegas had those options. this also goes into ep 12, when Pete is talking about blood types. Vegas is ok with every thing till Pete says "sensitive" Vegas says "I am not week." I believe he must have been told this as a kid, not only because he is a MAN but because the way he does a 180 between scene caring and not caring in one scene. this to me shows he was a very sensitive kid that was told not to be. now when you look at this and that out the fact that Pete was kidnapped, you know why Pete can relate because he went through the same thing, but had a person that showed him more. that's why I really don't think just saying Stockholm syndrome is 100% correct. because he can truly understand that all he needs is someone to show him more. unlike you being from a very good, loving family and falling in love with a person that kidnapped you and had a hard life. with no middle ground just the fact you are only seeing that person in a room and they are good and bad to you sometimes. and that is why Pete leaving and still wanting to be with Vegas is important to their story. Pete has lived this before and walking away from it. because he know what love is supposed to look like. he has the brain power to leave again. that's my take on it after watch their story 100 times ... lol... because I to wanted to know why they did that. so my conclusion is they needed more episodes to show what they are thinking and feeling.

[@AriKitsune19]

Personally, I didn't feel this show romanticized abuse all over the place. I feel just saw it happen with Vegas and Pete - the abuse was too much for me. As a survivor of domestic violence (most of it was physical and s**ual), watching those scenes brought me to tears and I had no other choice but skip the scenes after witnessing the first one. It literally made me sick. So overall, I think the star duo of the show isn't too bad, but Vegas and Pete - it just made me really uncomfortable.

[@Pastellyn]

Man, you *just* beat me to this topic! I'm currently working a (painfully long) video dissecting Kinnporsche's successes and failures. I share several of your opinions; Kinn and Porsche's SA arc was handled pretty delicately, all things considered--- however, I have to disagree with your point about the show dialing back on comedy noises when discussing KP's non-con encounter. There are a few gags poking fun at Porsche's experience in episode 5 (see: Pete and Porsche being victims of a "hilarious misunderstanding" about SA at the beginning of the episode). Additionally, I'm not a huge fan of how the show depicts the actual SA scene with soft, hazy lighting and romantic piano bgm. It really clashes with what's being shown on screen. Just food for thought! That aside, I mostly agree with everything else you've said. This show has a real problem with creating satisfying character arcs and it realllly shows with Vegas lmao. Sorry this is so long! Ty for making this video!!

[@bambeeyejoy]

I agree with this

[@FemmesReact]

They definitely knew how to depict SA with what Vegas was doing to Porsche in that episode - compare the creative direction there vs. the bathroom scene. BoC were trying to create a morally ambiguous situation but never outright called it SA in the show which was my gripe. During the time a large number of the audience interpreted episode 5's events as 'gay panic' and thought Porsche was upset because Kinn was cold to him post-'sex'. The way episode 4 ending was sensationalised and successfully hyped the show for its audience. I'm very cynical in thinking that they didn't know what they were doing - selling 'hot sex' but low-key tweeting about drug education to cover their bases. Even if their intentions were to have this SA narrative I don't think it came across clearly enough for the audience because their marketing needs to have the characters be likeable took priority over everything and they couldn't have the audience hate Kinn.

[@Pastellyn]

@@FemmesReact My thoughts exactly. It just felt a little too ambiguous for my liking.

[@kechiotta5349]

Believe me that I haven't watched KinnPorshe till now because I can't stomach abuse anymore in Bl. One thing I have noticed in recent bl is the "bottom" getting drunk and seducing the "top" to having s*x. From between us, to midnight chicken, to bed friend, big dragon all follow these drunk s*x plot which I hate. This makes me give up right on the first episode.

[@poornashree_nk]

This is the kind of video i was looking for since the start of Kinn Porsche. It was constantly making me question my belief coz I just couldn't decide my stance on it.

[@sansbyeol4261]

Btw, I loooooooooooooooooove that your channel is a safe space to talk about these topics!! I was introduced to Thai dramas from this series and have seen first hand how toxic the fandom is. Some people just don’t want to accept that this show does have some toxic trops and want to justify their ship at any costs

[@sejalbhonsale5186]

One of my struggles with this show was the VegasPete stroyline. I was so confused with how they came to be together that I really couldn't put in words what I was feeling. After spending time with Pete, I thought maybe Vegas would have an epiphany but yet he continued with the same choices he made previously. I was also upset about the fact that Vegas drugging Porsche and try to take advantage of him twice was never mentioned again. I think I would loved more of VegasPete interactions in the earlier episodes to get an idea about the dynamics of their relationship.

[@Redo-hg7xj]

Heck yes!!!! Especially for the age group the series attracts. I find shipping a couple especially when 1 that was beat down and tortured mentally/physically boggles my mind. I can’t help but wonder what age group is attracted to such scenes. I truly feel this series should have been rated and restricted

[@kuro-kuromi32]

completely agree! many vegas pete fans i’ve seen tend to be incredibly underage and it worries me how much of an effect the show may have on their impression of what an ‘ideal’ relationship is.

[@lisa-my9sm]

Thank you for this awesome video essay, Kayla :) As a BL fan I always struggle with most of the BL fandom, since so many people don't like to confront themselves with the ugly parts of their favorite series' and rather defend them in any way. So the work you're doing by speaking up and discussing such great issues is so important! Thank you~ And I completely agree with you. Some of romanticization of abuse and rape stems from within the fandom - but the creators of Thai BL mostly lay a (sort of) groundwork for that to happen. I just wish that we'll get to see more healthy relationships in the future. ✨

[@timefliesaway999]

Agree with the ending. It didn't entirely make sense. All the time Vegas has been saying how much it sucks being the minor family and that his father hates him. Not only is it shown that Vegas clearly doesn't want to be around his father and would rather run off and do his own thing. Yet, when he sees his father dead and then attempts to kill himself too, I was just confused. Why did he attempt to kill himself? His father being dead means he's finally free and can do whatever he wants, without his father looking down on him or hitting him. I doubt he actually felt sad about his father being dead. Yet it's depicted as if he couldn't imagine a life without his father, which makes absolutely no sense. Pete being empathetic of Vegas started because of the way Vegas' father treated Vegas. I guess Pete was just as confused about Vegas wanting to die, now that he's literally free, and that's why he stopped him from killing himself. Still, very out-of-character, for Vegas. I guess the writers wanted to have Vegas show vulnerability, so that Pete can save him, which will fuel the ship; but other than that it doesn't make sense, and was handled pretty poorly.

[@its_iqueen]

I am fascinated by your breakdown. On one hand, I can see some fans of KinnPorshe romanticizing abuse, and I do agree with all the instances you pointed out as being abuse. On the other hand, I would personally consider multiple factors before reaching any sort of conclusion. Firstly, KinnPorshe is a fictional novel converted into a series; whereas we would want to enforce morals and ethics binding us in reality we must remember it is still fiction, and the morals and ethics binding such a universe can only depict whatever the author desires; think of Marvel series, vampire series, etc. I find it disturbing that most people are okay with the k*lling occurring in the series but find the s*xual ab*se much more appalling. I'd rather people either condemn all the unethical parts or not comment at all. Lastly, KinnPorshe's target audience is adults, I'd like to believe most of the fans can logically separate fantasy from reality, right from wrong, and abuse from love. So are they romanticizing abuse when they are already aware that such behavior would not be accepted in reality?

[@monamay56]

Thank you for such a thoughtful essay! I also couldn't bear that a lot of the fandom made edits and gifs of the SA scene when I knew the context and found it horrible. Same for the fact that a lot of people interpreted Porsche's reaction in ep 5 as gay panic and not trauma. But I don't think the fan's are at fault here. I think the production wanted to play on both boards: denouncing the act, but making it sexy to the viewer at the same time. It felt very mercantile, and the post made on IG about GHB really felt like a way to cover their asses. People in the BL fandom are often very young. I understand how they could be confused about a scene that was both sexual assault, but framed like a sexy, romantic scene, with the lingering shots on their bodies, that hazy lighting and the soft background music. Framing is really important when portaying abuse in media. I'm not asking BL shows not to portay abuse, I would just like the production to make their stance on it clear in the show itself, not on an IG post.

[@lajvkatt84]

For me, this have been an issue for me for like a decade with BL and yaoi. It's always abuse, rape, drugs, force etc. And a very clear "boss/slave" dynamic. This series is nothing new really, just more graphic. My main problem is still the notion that even if your partner abuses you, hits you, SA you, you can always forgive. Stay in that relationship, trust him/her and the abuser will come to love you. That is my main problem. If porsche was a woman, would it feel the same? I'm very aware of this, and have been for ages, different media, different genres. Kinn/porsche as a story was boring, for these reasons. Vegas/Pete had my heart instead, because their deep traumatic entanglement. I can feel for both of them, I can feel Vegas hurt of being a failure, and Pete for finding comfort with Vegas abuse. That is way more interesting to me. Do I romanticize these relationships? Absolutely not. Do I think any of this is remotely realistic? Also no. A gay relationship is not always abuse and toxic. That is why my fav BL couple is Prapai/Sky from Love in the air. But to me, KP is problematic in the same way that 50 shades of gray is problematic.

[@Kappiccino]

Honestly, I stopped watching this show pretty early because there were some moments with the Kinn-Porsche couple that were bothering me too much to stick around until the end. I felt like all the "sexy" moments between Kinn and Porsche started with Porsche being drugged or drunk and then bam aggressive "sexy" times (feelings or not, the consent issue was real). I did not know about the Pete-Vegas situation and I am watching the video in shocked silence. Where is the romance between these two? One has been abducted and tortured and the other is the kidnapper and torturer. There is no way there should any type of romance between these 2 characters. The Pete-Vegas couple reminds me of that horrible webtoon 'Killing Stalking' and some people were shipping that. (Edit: I wrote my comment before finishing the video and yep, the webtoon is mentioned). How are some people romanticizing abuse? Even if it is just fictional, there are people in real life who are in abusive relationships. There is nothing romantic or healthy in abuse. Some Thai writers need to do better because they are out there romanticizing all type of problematic behaviors in their shows (abuse, incest, p**dophilia, etc.).

[@lottieisfashion]

I think it's a tricky topic... ultimately I would actually lean towards yes on the vp storyline bc the scriptwriters knew what they were doing writing it that way and knew how BL show promotion goes. The script has Vegas do evil things and then act like they're not morally repugnant actions, the script flip flops back and fourth on whether we're supposed to like Vegas and feel sorry for him, they won't just let him be evil. Those edits of Vegas made me sick to my stomach.

[@sansbyeol4261]

Thank you for making a video about this!! It’s sooooooooo much needed because there are so many great parts to this show but then there are soooo many things that make it horrible too. For me, the clearest indicator that showed Pete was more of a pet than a person was when Pete was trying to stop Vegas from sh00ting himself. Pete was referring to himself as a pet that Vegas needed to take care of and feed. I’ve read the book and when it came down to portraying their relationship, I knew there was going to be a lot of things they weren’t probably going to change. From the book to the series, I knew Pete and Vegas “relationship” was going to be the worst. I just hoped they could have approached it differently. From the book, there was a clear love language they had that made a bit convince able that maybe Pete really did love Vegas, but the series did not show it. If they would have shown Pete and Vegas’s food love language, then maybe it would have cleared this confusion about their paring? Idk but from the series it looks more like stalk Holmes syndrome than anything

[@carcasscrash]

IT'S FINALLY HERE! Lemme get my tea and thinking glasses. I really wanted a video going on further detail about this.

[@calebepessoa1985]

Kayla, what a fantastic approach to this sensitive topic. Thank your for this comprehensive analysis and very educational for many of us who somtimes are too biased to think clearly what's really going on behind a storyline in a series. Oftentimes we're just too inebriated by the "characters" and all the hype to it. It is important to think outside of the box and get different perspectives. Can't thank you enough.

[@ChrisBrooks34]

I think you can lead people to ignore red flags and then believing that that stuff gets a pass. I also think we have to admit we likely wouldn't give Vegas as much grace as we do if we didn't think Bible was hot. I think part of the bigger problem is BL as a genre. That is letting SA be seen as something that's okay. Dub-con, non- con and SA have been part of BL DNA from the dramas to the source material. We could all do better.

[@FemmesReact]

we love being non-controversial channels 💜

[@mabelgomes3936]

First of all I like to acknowledge that fact that it takes guts to talk openly about this topic especially when it comes to KP- a series that unfortunately part fandom doesn’t have the most tolerance when it comes to criticism. IMO KP was a pretty good series and it’s undeniable the impact that it had and has in the BL industry. But it’s difficult to please all parties(novel, thai and international fandom). And IMO here lies the problem with the series. As an novel adaptation the series have to take in consideration the preexisting novel fandom- a novel that although with a big fanbase, storytelling wise is not that good-, and also factor in a new fandom that takes consent issues pretty seriously. And given the original source material how do you balance that? The solution: ambiguity! You create storylines that are open to interpretation. Now my question is it possible to mix ambiguity with consent? 🤔 Truthfully I don’t know if it’s possible because I never seen a successful case. And KP is definitely not a successful case. And frankly it was doomed from the beginning because for that to happen you have to start with a good story and like I said the source material wasn’t it. One last thing I want to say is that it is possible to deliver a good toxic story but when it comes to consent it’s best to pick a side and give it your best. And as the public we need to take accountability too. As much as the creators have a responsible intention when creating their art we are the ones who give meaning to said art and choose to do with it whatever we want. So please have this thought in the front of your mind when watching and consuming something.

[@Eris_Norregard]

Amazing comment, and couldn't agree more!

[@aprillen]

Brilliant and very thoughtful analysis! I feel that with K&P, they did successfully address the toxicity and abuse, with some credible redemption for Kinn (the man sincerely expressed his apologies and regret, tried to set Porsche free and then took a bullet for him), but with V&P, they only managed to do that in part. It's obvious to me that Pete is a masochist and that he's also fucked up in the head, with the same being true for Vegas being a sadist and being also fucked up in the head. The problem comes with juxtaposing BDSM and being a mental case, because those do not necessarily go hand in hand. V&P did recognise something in each other, but the way they got from Stockholm Syndrome through being mortal enemies on a brutal battlefield to that totally non-sequitur happy-families scene was so disconnected and simply didn't make any sense. It was bad storytelling, and yes, it did romanticise abuse, because unlike what they did with K&P, it was never dealt with, never properly resolved. It's doesn't retroactively turn the previous torture and abuse into some kind of consensual kinky play. The only way I could feel even remotely good about those two being together is if they both (separately and together) went to some really intensive therapy... but I'm not sure that would be enough. Ideally, I would want a lot more time to pass before they could approach each other, with a LOT of character development and redemption (and healing) in between, instead of this rushed and highly problematic shoe-horned-in HEA.

[@darcy98331]

Hello! Resident VP trash here- thank you so much for your video and the food for thought. As VP Trash, I MUST admit they are toxic AF. I think a lot of the issue (and how their storyline could have been handled better) resides with their childhood trauma. Pete’s trauma allows him to bond with Vegas, and Vegas’s trauma and him being forced to act by his father (not for everything he’s an adult) shapes the way he interacts with others immensely. I feel like Vegas is very emotionally stunted, acting out when he wants attention or feels unsteady. He wants control at all times. I really wish more time could have been given to VP, because while their start was very bad, they do end up changing. Like you said, when Kan is gone Vegas is free. He then has to make the choice of how he is going to act and how he is going to treat Pete, and (bad writing aside) he does change his behavior. Unfortunately we don’t get to see this in the series, and we never will get a season 2 now. But I think KP is actually a bit worse off than VP in the end. Vegas and Pete tend to talk issues out whereas Kinn and Porsche tend to fight then take off their clothes. I think Pete’s story arc is “choice” and Vegas has a potentially great character development, because he knows he is a monster and actively works to change himself, whereas Kinn in my opinion (less in the series) has a hard time even acknowledging when he is wrong. I do agree that BOC tried to take a garbage novel (the trigger warnings in the second novel are a WHOLE PAGE long) and use it to express and inform. And the fandom is largely to blame for a lot of the toxicity. I think people are missing half the discussion. Portrayals of couples like these should not be censored, but they should be discussed. I think it’s fine to like something and also acknowledge it’s problems. This was way too long but thank you again for the video!

[@tracyumoffa5387]

U hit d nail perfectly....I got drawn to vegas/Pete story more than kp story....Vegas was determined 2 changed 4 Pete even if it's a little bit but kinn was extremely full of himself.....every fight always ended btw d sheets....but ur write up is good af

[@CJPDeQueen]

Ok this could be long! I'm pretty in agreement with a lot of what you have said. As someone NOT in their very younger years, none of the relationship I usually see in BLs or many drama series are relationships I inspire to. (Well DeanPharm are the exception) So I can still love certain couplings even knowing they aren't in an ideal relationship. Now KinnPorsche was my absolute favourite couple in the series and I can still see and understand both of their behaviours even knowing that they were BOTH wrong at various times. The controversial scene in the hotel room is such a sensitive topic and very triggering for many that it is something that is hard to talk about without it being emotional for some. I KNOW Kinn was in the wrong to let it happen and yet it isn't like what would have happened if Vegas had had his way with Porsche. As much as Kinn goes into denial the next day because of Porsche's behaviour towards him in the morning, Kinn gave into his growing feelings for in that moment even though he knows he shouldn't because of the state that Porsche is in. Now Kinn is my favourite character from the series so it's likely my bias towards him is showing but I have to own that although it's not anything I would condone in a real life situation. What is at least done with the KinnPorsche relationship is that they deal with what Kinn did to Porsche and Kinn knows and understands he is wrong and apologise with real meaning. The Pete and Vegas relationship is a big NO for me. Plus I don't actually like Vegas as a character even though I do like and appreciate Bible the actor (which I may have already said before). Pete I do like and wish there was a better and nicer character for him to be with but hey ho, they are set in stone. I find Vegas a cruel and horrible person and even with the cruelty his father dish out to him, there was something inhumane about him at times. It made my skin crawl that some still wanted to pair Vegas with Porsche even after Vegas got Porsche to be drugged and he was going to rape him and yet there was compliments to Vegas about him taking Porsche on a bike ride even though it was made clear that he was doing this because of him wanting to get at Kinn. Sadly Vegas is like so many male characters in numerous tv shows where the more emotionally damage they are by their parent but yet charismatic and witty, well they are usually end up the most popular character no matter the cruelties they hand out themselves to others. Now it could be perceive that I'm a bit of a hypocrite considering of my love for Kinn but even I have my limits. I just don't view Kinn being as horrible as Vegas even with THAT scene. Still in terms of a green flag boyfriend, neither of these will ever touch my ultimate best ever bl boyfriend and partner. Stand up UWMA Dean 🥰

[@gaurishukla4989]

i thinking vp is about trauma and honestly this can be shown as a longterm solution in fiction but irl its a temporary thing so im ok w the ending

[@sunnydaze9332]

really enjoyed this video. watching the series itself had me in a similar headspace. still gonna sit on this one for a while...

[@robinmead5512]

Thanks for your take on the show. I’ve yet to watch it because of the abuse content and now with the controversy concerning the writer and actor it does explain a lot. Again thanks for the insight it was non biased and to the point.

[@ValerieMain-os2ov]

Excellent analysis, Kayla, as always. Very thought provoking.

[@sprinkles4375]

Love the topic. I think the series romanticized violence less than the novel. I thought series did a good job at not romanticizing violence, by comparison. It’s a pretty gritty story. I could not stomach some chapters in the book and could not finish reading. Many Thai novels contain explicit rape scenes. I do not understand this and it takes from the story, for me. How is rape love, romantic, or even erotic?

[@kuro-kuromi32]

i always thought that it’s poor management was the only reason that i couldn’t bring myself to rewatch kinnporsche despite watching every episode as it released. despite that, ever since the final (disappointing) episode aired i reflected back and just wished that i could rewatch a cut of kinnporsche where it’s just kinn and porsche’s storyline because of how poorly written vegaspete’s storyline was - and i always hated vegas pete as a couple but i could never succinctly describe it as you have. vegas is horrendously written and their storyline romanticizes abuse to the extent that it’s nauseating. i truly cannot fathom why they have such a devoted fan base that girlbossifies pete and neuters vegas (hyperbole, of course, the feral nature of vegas pete fans actually terrifies me so i want to clarify 😭)

[@rojara5857]

I couldn't finish KinnPorsche, I just couldn't. I really liked how they managed Porsche's feelings after being taken advantage of by Kinn, I mean, to me ep. 6 remains the best. But I couldn't pass through ep 7 and go on because damn, I think Kinn just demonstrated that he will never change. He literally called Porsche a sl*t for almost being r*ped ???? Like, he beats Vegas for kissing Porsche (out of jealousy I suppose) and then he proceeds to insult Porsche, I can't stand it. And then they resolve everything with sex... I don't know, maybe I'm overreacting here but I just thought that this could not be any better. And another thing that stopped me from watching was the relationship between Vegas and Pete. Istg I was hopeful that they wouldn't develop any kind of "romantic" relationship but seeing one or two edits made me so disappointed that I decided not to keep on watching, like, definitely. And, as you said, of course media and creators are to blame partially for some of the decisions taken when showing this great amount of abusive behaviours and relationships, but also seeing fans romanticizing this is worrying to a great extent and shoes the lack of education. It's sad to see but I hope coming series will do better to show that this is not right.

[@lynette365247]

Thank you for your very considered comments on this show. I very much agree with much of what you have said. For me, in the end it is about being able to enjoy the content while maintaining a discerning mind. I was very disappointed with people who insisted on romanticizing Vegas/Pete's relationship in their minds but then blaming to show writers for doing the same, which I don't think is what was really happening. At the end of the last episode, where Pete says he is following this heart, that he can't run away, it is just the continuation of the Stockholm syndrome. If the story of Vegas/Pete had played out further then it would have become obvious that Vegas as a character is irredeemable. I have watched several of your videos and I appreciate your insights on these issues that arise in BL and other media. It is important to discuss all these issues.😇😊👏

[@yuubbie]

I am just new to thai BL, I started a week ago and this is my very first thai BL. I have seen 5 already and I can say that this is my top as I really like the plot. But talking about the topic, I agree with u because it is wrong to force yourself to someone and of course if that someone is not sane or drunk or in Porsche’s situation, drugged. But as for Kinn’s character I have seen a lot so this is pretty normal and we can say that maybe happened in real life. So it is just up to you if you will fall inlove with that toxic person. As for Vegas I agree with u also. I can say that Vegas is psycho and a psycho don’t fall inlove as if that have 0 intimate feelings. So the ending to me is also nonsense because a psycho is always a psycho. But I love the series. The actors are great. This is fictitious anyway so it’s ok.

[@kirimai100]

Although I do not agree with some of your statements, others give me something to think about. The question of romanticizing abuse is quite interesting. I feel that Vegas Pete relationships may have some layers of human nature you do not cover in this video, but fandom need to romanticize abuse - it is an interesting question. I would think about it more. Thank you for your input, as a schoolteacher I find this topic extremely interesting and hopefully it will help me to understand my students better.

[@luunara7065]

At first, I was glad about the post credit scene, but the second it ended my brain caught up and I wished it would be just a dream from Pete. I love media about the dark side of humans, the bottomless hole that a human mind can be or be made to, and Bible and Built acted it pretty good, imo. Their story is so messed up, their "relationship" is a guideline for toxicity, abuse and the result of them, it made my own broken brain firing neurons all over. Maybe it is my way coping with my own traumata or something... I didn't romantice them, there is nothing romantic about it, but I enjoyed it, if that makes sence? I don't know how I should describe it..... like you like to watch murder mysteries or psycho thriller or something like that.... But their story should have ended at the pool, imo.

[@timefliesaway999]

As someone who hates romanticization of sexual assault A LOT, and hate the fact that those BLs seem to be the most popular ones (e.g. TharnType), I'm quite conflicted about KinnPorsche, honestly. It definitely is better than TharnType, as it acknowledges the fact that they did include sexual assault, while TT completely pretended that they're not toxic at all. I loved it when Kinn apologized and that they talked about their boundaries. I really did and I hope it does change future BL series, in regards of consent, while still having passion. But, as you said, high/drunk people cannot give consent and it bothers me so much that both their first times (kiss & sex) was when Porsche wasn't completely present. Not only because of consent, but it's also kind of sad that Porsche couldn't fully enjoy their first times. So, yea, conflicted. I hated episode 4 with the sex scene, but I did love that they apologized and acknowledged it afterwards. (Don't get me started on PeteVegas, though. It's not only physical abuse, but also literally Stockholm syndrome. While the actors may have chemistry and their emotional moments seem genuine (when they just talked about things), it is not romance. Pete feels bad for Vegas and is a good guy, but he clearly feels anxious and uncomfortable around Vegas. And who wouldn't? Pete's literally been tortured by him. Physically tortured. That is not love.)

[@emilyevans7642]

I think from Vegas kidnapping and cuffing Porsche together is no different than Vegas and Pete. There bond went from Porsche being unsure of kin to closer and exsepting to kin. My dad was toxic and abusive growing up I ended up dating a girl who would say really hateful things including saying wishing I was dead. It lasted a year before I told her I was done. It wasn't love she only hurt me. I do think though the series is trying to bring awearness in a way to toxic relationships. The only one that is fine was Kim and Porschay. Kim was kind and caring to him even if he also was looking into his past and his brother. He still was also trying to help him over his parents being killed he could have ingored it.

[@jeffreyjohnson1874]

The way I see it is that Pete from him youth was a servant (body guard) of the Theerapanyakun family. Vegas is a member of the Theerapanyakun family. It is ingrained in many servants to always see the family. So Vegas and Pete care for each other, in the end Pete is still a servant of the Theerapanyakun family and Vegas is a member of that family.

[@girlwithoutpearlearring]

I watched this show for fun and it served it's purpose. Was it the best thing I've ever seen. Definitely not. Did I enjoy myself. Yes. Well, most of the time. Pete was my favourite character. He was just so sweet, silly and kind. What Vegas did to him was absolutely dehumanizing and I don't think I read their encounter as romantic but as an instance of starkly unbalanced powerdymanics that takes a sexual turn. The show then depicted the aftermath for Pete in a way thought was quite realtistic and respectful. He was clearly traumatized, hating Vegas for what he did to him, but also hating himself. And I was screaming at my screen: "Get this man a therapist!!!" But of course, in this series full of tough men there are no therapists. The acknowledged the mental toll days of captivity, torture and abuse had taken on him, but failed to draw the consequences. Later, when the minor family attacks, Pete resigns and joins Vegas, saying these disquitening lines about being a pet that has come back to its owner. (Who would even think that was romantic, let alone healthy?) When Vegas gets shot, I thought that he had died, that this was it. And, as some other comments have already pointed out, it should have ended that way. Vegas' death would have devastated Pete, but it would also have set him free from his captor and given him a chance to mentally recover from the abuse he'd suffered. With the help of a therapist, mind you! I will admit, yes, it warmed that peculiar little heart of mine when I heard that Vegas had survived and that Pete was now taking care of him (As far as I can remember, I didn't even see the post credit scene. They must have mentioned it in the dialogue). Still. When I think about it, there is no basis for the two of them on which to build a romantic relationship. Pete hasn't overcome his trauma, and Vegas has not redeemed himself. And no, having an abusive father and then klinging to the only person in your life that you can control because you abused them in turn, just so you would feel a little less alone, is no repemption. Vegas should have died, bringing both his arc and that of his relationship with Pete to a close and giving Pete a chance to heal. Their relationship was never about love or romance. It was about power, violence, and control.

[@marticeinwonderland7481]

This is a dark romance BL. Dark romance is a thing, not for everyone, but some people like it. Did I like Vegas in the show? Yes. Would I like him in the real life? I would run miles away at his first sight!😂

[@gabby127_]

Admittedly i love vegaspete, i know it’s extremely toxic however i’m very interested in the psychology of their relationship. But of course i would never support this kind of relationship in real life, because it’s fiction i feel like im allowed to be fascinated with it.

[@FPBJ2024]

Just ran into this. I love your video essay ❤❤❤❤

[@aaron20410]

you sound so strong and unwavering that if i ever had to fight for lgbt rights i may waver and go berserk,id ask you to come with me. even in the brutal old historical times (if i ever go back to live in time travel cases) and current times.

[@ridita5221]

I red the novel, just to understand the story. It's still fucked up, but in the novel we can see more of the characters tought and interactions. I'm not sure if KinnPorsche should get a second season, because the writers abused the actors and didn't made a good work anyway. However the series is a goldmine to new actors and I hope that we cyn see them in different projects.

[@nellybell32]

great video...and really appreciate the points you made. Maybe this is why I haven't rewatched KinnPorsche in the way I have other BLs that I've watched at least 2x maybe even more (UWMA...still has me in a chokehold...LOL), even though I enjoyed KP while I on 1st watch

[@patroclus787]

A controversial topic as the series didn't actually clarify either or give stable resources to give a clear conclusion to this question, it was ,like u said quite poorly written. Tbh in my opinion i think in Vegas pete relationship the series does romantize abuse as Vegas quite clearly treated him as a "pet" Vegas didn't treat pete as a human abused, tortured and kidnapped him . The excuse that the writers gives to handle this situation is that Vegas was getting yelled and hit by his dad , but mainly focused that Vegas had a competitive growing up environment , being constantly compaired to kinn and overall having a shitty life . This is not an excuse to ruin someone else's life , torture them , taking out your trama , physically and mentally on another human is not accept, especially when u don't treat them like a human.

[@zackwilson8701]

Oh this series most definitely romanticizes abuse. The extent to which it humanizes abusers in a realistic way, then shows them changing in a wildly unrealistic, unearned way... it's a pretty harmful narrative. "Love can change him" isn't a great message to perpetuate. That said, the Kinn Porsche storyline is handled better than the Vegas Pete storyline, and it helps (slightly) that at the end of the series Porsche no longer works for Kinn and is finally his financial and political equal. But despite Kinn's apology, I just think it's unrealistic that he would change so quickly within 2 episodes... that's not earning a redemption or putting in the work to change or re-establish trust. And the show does manage to mostly salvage the horrific books, which were arguably worse than 50 Shades of Grey. Kinn Porsche was in my top 5 favorite BLs last year, mostly because it was campy, fun, sexy, and I genuinely felt emotionally invested in Apo's performance as Porsche. But yeah, that doesn't mean it doesn't have its problems. Most media is pretty flawed, but yeah, we can enjoy a show and still acknowledge when it get stuff wrong.

[@nanikazoldyck1457]

Thank you for the video!

[@Psynergic]

Well said, Kayla! 💙

[@priyabarlota5137]

Little late to the party, but I really wanted fans to talk about it. I hated that they showed love angle in Vegas Pete story, in my opinion it was absolutely disgusting, I agree with all your points, I honestly felt enraged after seeing the end credits, Pete suffered some much, he was mentally also strong, that's why he was capable to run away, to me it didn't make sense for him to leave Major family to go to Vegas, NO, A BIG NO, that dude like Pete said took even humanity from him, regardless of how conflicted he was (like you said his case was a classic example of Stockholm Syndrome) yet I cannot see it him going back to Vegas & it's not solely because Vegas is pure evil but also because Pete is not weak, he is not so ill willed to go back to someone so destructive especially when he is in clear headspace, also he was extremely loyal to Major family & he had good bond with everyone, now suddenly he can kill one of them for someone like Vegas doesn't make sense to him, it's extremely contradictory to his nature. He is soft and good but he is also strong & smart, the entire narrative was off-putting me to me. However, I will say that the actors share good chemistry & their scenes translated well if I forget Vegas's bg, I would have enjoyed them together, so my hope for the two of them is to see them together in which one of the character is not this messed up!

[@jennifercook-lf6jj]

Confusing sex with love. Being intimate sexually is not the same as having a romantic relationship. Sex can be part of the relationship, but it can't be the only basis for the relationship. Toxic, abusive relationships are based on the power imbalance between the two people. Just like rape is not about sex, toxic relationships are also not about love. Trying to have total control and manipulation of another person are not acts of love.

[@user-nh1lg7vg3g]

maybe I feel like I had harder time liking vegaspete pairing than Kinnporsche ( though weird power dynamic ).ik it's dealing with mafia none them are really good people but handles most of issues better than most.

[@ShanaJahsintaWalters]

I haven't seen this drama KinnPorsche as yet.

[@waeeeezeeeee]

in the book how the hell could pete fall in love with vegas in the series honestly theres no reason for pete to fall in love with vegas as well why can't we have a healthy couple like malec T_T

[@JammyJacketPotato]

I thought you really hit the nail on the head with this one. Kinn and Porche start from a toxic place with abuse and it is never romanticized, but addressed by the narrative for what it is. Your Pete and Vegas was spot on for me too. I was actually fine with their story line from the perspective of telling a story about something horrific, not romantic. But that ending scene was not cute and changed the tone of the relationship entirely into a total "look, Petes love cured Vegas of being himself!" I hated it.

[@Dominik-00-42]

minha opinião sobre kinnporsche, a serie romantiza abuso? SIM, quando eu assisti, meu maior problema foi com o VegasPete, antes de assistir, eu via muitas pessoas dizendo que VegasPete era o melhor casal, que o Vegas era o melhor personagem, que eles eram melhores que o Kinn e o Porsche e eu fui assistir esperando que eu encontrasse um casal tão bom quanto os protagonistas... mas o que eu encontrei me horrorizou tanto que até hoje Kinnporsche é um das series que mais odeio do fundo do meu coração, primeiro: eu achei estranho, já estávamos no episodio 11 e até ali Vegas só tinha tentado estuprar pessoas, e segundo: tudo que eu pude tirar do sequestro do Pete foi um SINDROME DE ESTOCOLMO e nada mais, eu fiquei pensando, como isso é romântico? de onde está vindo o romance incrível que todo mundo estava enxergando que só eu não estava vendo? e o final com o Pete no hospital com o Vegas foi a coisa mais horrível que eu já assisti, como se até ali eles tivesse tipo uma trajetória linda que os juntou.... Kinnporsche podia ter sido tão bom que eles tivessem excluído esse suposto romance entre VegasPete, sem eles a serie não teria se transformado em uma das piores que eu ja assisti, enfim, concordo com tudo que você disse no seu video!!!!!

[@Freeloader-jw9ug]

First up Kinn Porche Their relationship was not the idealistic mafia romance. Their are instances that made me believe that Kinn was toxic. For example when Porche got drunk and was forced by Vegas, Kinn blamed Porche. Another one Porche being accused of spying on Kinn(though Porche did spy on Kinn but the intention was different and I won't justify Porche's actions). Porche did suffer atleast mentally after Kinn lowkey r*ped him(as discussed in video). Second is Pete and Vegas The author did them so dirty in the book that it traumatized me to some extent. In the book Pete was so badly treated and him getting used to it ugh! I don't know how to express the feeling. Vegas was humanized in many ways like by showing ( when Vegas kidnapped Porche) that he won't force anything on him. Vegas stating that he won't hurt the ones he loves. Vegas being beaten by his father(creating empathy in the minds of viewers, I guess) well there are more. I guess there is plot hole to how Pete accepted Vegas completely. Although I did not want atleast the main leads to die I did like the fact ( I don't know why I feel this way) that Pete Vegas ended together. I would like to add that the series is much better than the book( it's outright violation of consent and abuse both physical and verbal and romanticisation of utterly disgusting abuse). I'm no expert and these are my personal views from whatever sources I have read the book and seen the series.

[@daeith1233]

Kinn was basically being jealous so expressing humans emotions, people can be very different but ig some people can find it weird to see their loved one with someone else. Then did he know Porsche was drunk at that time? Like maybe he heard that he drank but to the point of being drunk? Also then Porsche also brings an argument that iritates him so he answers with angriness ig, I feel like we're forgetting that Kinn is a human, obviously he's not going to be perfect up to the down

[@terencesilva4499]

I think they should have just rewritten the whole vegas and Pete ark. Like enemies to lovers like if kinn's father finds out about how bad his brother abuses his sons he could banish or kill his brother later on sends Pete to take care of vegas young brother because vegas is total wreck.

[@aaron20410]

ud be a great teacher if u ever make lectures based off ur degree.

[@Bsps_22615]

I think it did partially but I think it showed Stockholm syndrome with vagespete relationship

[@ms.chuisin7727]

So.... I read the novel. First off, about what happened to Porche. The writer made it sounded like Kinn asked for consent and getting it but he knows very well Porche was drugged and it was mentioned he felt guity for giving in to his own lust later on but what he doesn't know was how it affected Porche. I don't see you mentioned it in the video so I am gonna assume it wasn't in the drama, Porche actually broke down crying telling Kinn that his dignity was shredded and how he suffered from what had happened. It was at that point that Kinn finally realised what he had done to Porche and apologised. I personally think this is much better than what was shown in the drama. As for Vegas & Pete, not done reading yet but what he did was too brutal to be described even in the comment section. Yeah, this dude really doesn't deserve forgiveness. Stockholm Syndrome is destroying Pete and he should listen to Vegas and leave. And btw, I read a lot of novels and this 2 writers aren't really that gem they think they are. Personally, I think the actors were the reason the drama got so popular. I heard that they wrote a 2nd season which is filled with worse abuse

[@ashna08]

This was a refreshing take on the drama series. I hope people watch this and at the least starts thinking about the dark impact the entertainment industry leaves on us in the name of love and romance. It's safe for all of us until this type of love and romance stays in the reel world and is just enjoyed as a means for time pass and nothing more. Btw I am very late to your video but glad KZbin recommended you. I usually cannot stand reaction videos for more than 2 mins but I watched your KinnPorsche pov back to back. You doing a great job and kudos for citing the researches. It shows you've done a thorough research before giving your opinion. Yours' is the most underrated channel. Wish you success. Take care!🫰