Does Powder Burn Rate Affect Rifle Recoil? - Season 2: Episode 72

Welcome to the Ron Spomer Outdoors Podcast! In this episode, I answer a question about powder burn rate and more.
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00:00 - Corrections
10:47 - Do they ever use shotgun slugs in Africa?
12:50 - Does powder burn rate change recoil? Is there a difference between a case with a slow burn and a case with a fast burn?
14:02 - Could you make a recommendation on how to keep a lightweight sporter barrel cool when sighting in with a new scope?
15:46 - What are your thoughts on the .50 Beowolf?
16:54 - How do they measure the exact chamber pressure on a rifle?
18:46 - Ron, if you could only purchase ONE reloading book, what would it be and why?
20:43 - What do you think of Weatherby calibers?
Links:
Website: ronspomeroutdoors.com/
Facebook: / ronspomeroutdoors
Instagram: / ronspomer
Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion - the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me - from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, to become an integral part of our ecosystem and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I've seen the beauty that everyone should see, survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
Produced by: Red 11 Media - www.red11media.com/
Disclaimer
All loading, handloading, gunsmithing, shooting and associated activities and demonstrations depicted in our videos are conducted by trained, certified, professional gun handlers, instructors, and shooters for instructional and entertainment purposes only with emphasis on safety and responsible gun handling. Always check at least 3 industry handloading manuals for handloading data, 2 or 3 online ballistic calculators for ballistic data. Do not modify any cartridge or firearm beyond what the manufacturer recommends. Do not attempt to duplicate, mimic, or replicate anything you see in our videos. Firearms, ammunition, and constituent parts can be extremely dangerous if not used safely.

[@bearmeat898]

I love Ron. He's such a decent guy. That's a dude I could enjoy being around. You don't see his kind of humility very often in a person with his knowledge base.

[@Mike-ul1xn]

He's like the Bob Ross of ammunition

[@gailbosgieter7556]

OI

[@Helljumper_2552]

Hey Ron, absolutely love your content. I work for Krieger Barrels Inc located in Richfield, WI. We make single point cut barrels and a good part of our work is test barrels for foreign and domestic use. I personally, with only one other coworker, do the chambering and other services on our barrels, including porting for transducers. A transducer is used to measure all pressure these days. With SAAMI spec centerfire rifle cartridge pressure barrels the centerline of the transducer is .175 inches behind the shoulder of the cartridge. For NATO and CIP barrels the transducer is placed right at the end of throat of the cartridge where the bullet sits. Many of the NATO and CIP pressure barrels also have a second transducer roughly between 11 and 15 inches down the barrel from the breech face. Thought you might enjoy some insider information about how and where pressure is measured on test barrels. As always keep putting out great content!

[@ronspomer4366]

Peter! Thanks so much for this inside information!

[@Michael-rg7mx]

You're very patient Ron. Thanks for repeating the basics to the masses. Yet still dig into new complicated observations. Good hunting.

[@brianklamer3328]

Anybody that shoots for sport or hunts should be watching Ron's videos.

[@22sniper70]

There was a really cool test done by the guys at Meateater recently, their test ran in ballistics gel and had bone in it. Out to some significant ranges. Definitely worth a watch!

[@jfess1911]

SAAMI, CIP and the NATO all use pressure test methods that involve drilling a hole in the barrel and inserting a pressure transducer. Each measures in a slightly different location, so each comes up with a slightly different number. The SAAMI pressure sensor touches the outside of the case. The CIP measures the gas pressure through a hole drilled in the case. The NATO EPVAT method measures gas pressure in front of the case mouth. edited to add: There are indeed some pressure tests systems that use strain gages glued to the barrel, but they are not used for certification.

[@Michael-rg7mx]

Apples to apples.

[@jfess1911]

@@Michael-rg7mx Yes, but it explains why sometimes you will see an odd Max Pressure number for a particular cartridge. Someone quoted CIP vs SAAMI. For example, 308 Win Max Average Pressure for SAAMI is 62,000 psi but for CIP, it is 60,191 psi . My understanding is that those pressures are equivalent. According to another source, both those are very close to the NATO EPVAT 55,000psi.

[@Michael-rg7mx]

@@jfess1911 What I meant was when comparing or calculating use the same source. It's like h4895 and imr4895 are not the same. Always check the details when reloading. I knew a guy who tried to resize some loaded 223 that didn't fit his chamber. He didn't check the die setup first. Bad idea right? Yep, he had a Dillon 1050 with a primer pocket swager. Multiple surgeries later and they sewed the 3 fingers back on. But he never could do a quick mag change. Always check the details and follow directions.

[@Oldhogleg]

I've only been reloading for a little over two decades, but I've never noticed a difference in recoil when trying different burn rates while everything else being equal. I've only noticed an increase in recoil when increasing muzzle velocity, or increasing bullet weight. But of course you'll never reach maximum chamber pressure if the burn rate is too slow due to insufficient case volume, and therefore lower velocity, and therefore lower recoil. Plus if you use a burn rate that's too fast, you'll reach maximum chamber pressure before reaching maximum case volume. Therefore you'll get lower velocities as well due to less total available energy in the small powder charge, therefore lower recoil. That's why typically the ideal powder burn rate is the one that reaches maximum chamber pressure at or near maximum case volume, assuring maximum available energy in powder volume.

[@scottearnst8152]

Agree , totally! Maximum , maximum, But , burn rates and barrel lengths? Combined with bullet weights ,and pressures being just right , in my limited experience. 300 wby, 300 winmag 300 prc, 7mm everything, plus 3 decades as well, ( by the way, great job keeping up with an ever changing hobby) Sometimes results in an almost unexplainable less felt or prolonged recoil. Maybe, I’m half crazy, I am a Missourian, but this has been my experience and what I search for in loading larger magnum’s. Appreciate your post and comments

[@CharizardFan_og]

13:06 - I can confirm what Ron is saying here. I load my 6.5x55 swede with slower burning powder because it has a 27" barrel and the regularly recommended powder causes pressure issues. The slower burning powder elevates that but I still feel the same amount of recoil...

[@tlloyd9325]

Great Q & A session. It’s always interesting to see what people are thinking and questioning. In my 55 years of reloading, jeez I’m getting old, I have always tried to keep an open mind on things. Having said that, when I find a particular sweet load, for a particular rifle, I’m hard pressed to experiment. I keep trying to think of something to stump you. Haven’t found one yet…..

[@Hammerback972]

Ive always wanted to learn about, and actually reload myself, have no one to assist, and im intimidated by it, afraid id damage something or worse, damage myself

[@charlessmith4242]

@@Hammerback972 * I would say that you have the first qualification necessary to become a good and safe reloader. That is you seem to be a cautious person. Reloading, is not that complicated, but one must be willing to follow the procedures precisely as the reloading manual outlines, and then have the ability to consistently repeat the process. Reloading, in itself, can be a very enjoyable endeavor, give it a try.

[@tlloyd9325]

@@Hammerback972 there are a lot of good reloading manuals out there. Get a couple of books and a “combo kit” and try it. There are also videos. Try not to get caught up in the minutiae of it all.

[@rogerramjet7567]

I started reloading when I was fourteen. I am seventy five now. I have taken all North American big game except the four sheep. The only factory load was my first white tail with my dad’s 06. Everything after that was taken with my own handloads. Still going strong.

[@richardfuerst5286]

One summer I went out to my range with 3 rifles. It was a sunny day about 75-78 degrees. I would shoot 3 shots then place that rifle in my truck in front of the AC vent. Shoot another rifle and then put it in front of the vent. Shoot the third rifle, then it goes in front of the vent. Then shoot the first rifle. Kept the barrels cool, only used 5 gallons of gas to run the AC!

[@Andrew-ql1cz]

Hey Ron, powder burn rate can make a big enough difference to be felt. Slower burning powders usually require more mass of powder to achieve the same pressures. Tis is because the more mass of powder the more recoil energy there will be.

[@chrisaerts6489]

Great show. Thanks for everything you do.

[@danieltustison822]

The one Weatherby chambering that i wish was used more In other brands is the 375 Weatherby mag. It added about 150ish fps to 300gr bullets and allowed you to use 375 H&H in pinch. On that note might want to pass on that the same gain you get with AI load is also the same as you loss shooting parent clambering in AI. If your .280 rem goes 2800fps then you chamber it for .280AI your fire forming ammo is going be only 2700 fps.

[@anthonygendron9737]

One thing I have noticed is that the slower burning powder it doesn’t hurt your ears as much when you fire around.

[@vincegordon6830]

Thanks Ron!

[@scottearnst8152]

Very much so , excited for this upload! Handloading has taught me so much about burn rate , pressure, barrel length, and felt recoil! Thank you in advance Ron! Appreciate all your uploads and writing, keep up the great work

[@reloadrefine]

Great video. Thanks Ron 😎🤠👍🏻👍🏻

[@michaelwilson9986]

One of your better ones,no ideal how I missed it. Manuals Best Western Powders if can still find. Powder burn rate dose affect felt recoil.. At least in my experiences..However Charge weight dose as well.not to mention bore size n bullet weight n gun weight.All things being equal faster burning powder gives sharper quicker recoil vs Slow burning .

[@mattevans-koch9353]

Great episode Ron. I just finished paging through my old copy of Barnes' "Cartridges of the World" and your video popped up. I don't know if this book is still published but it is a great read for those interested in the development and history of all of the various cartridges from both the past and those we enjoy today. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience. Take care and have a great week.

[@johnmollet2637]

Hey Ron, Good podcast, always like hearing different takes/opinions on things. Always seem to learn some additional nugget of information. Thanks a million!

[@gogart3]

good talk

[@kentowens2179]

I enjoy your videos, always well presented, and well done. Being an old reader and practitioner of firearms and gunsmithing, and shooting and reloading in general, I have high standards. I think you have the best content on youtube. Very informative, and well presented. Good luck in your adventures.

[@ChristopherKnN]

The Lyman Reloading Manual is a good one for a full overview because it is not bullet brand specific. It gives recipes for many brands. As always, never rely on a single source for reloading data in case of publishing errors. One thing I wish brand specific manuals, and labels, would include is minimum and maximum impact velocities required for optimal bullet performance.

[@Michael-rg7mx]

Some manufacturers have the ability to computer model that. But none photograph the stability at range. Interesting idea for a company doing tests for manufacturers. Put together the equipment and sell your services.

[@ChristopherKnN]

@@Michael-rg7mx Stability is not what I was referring to. Stability is fairly easy to ascertain just by printing on paper. I'm talking about terminal performance. Expansion and fragmentation based on velocity at impact. To low a velocity may not get expansion, and to high may get unwanted fragmentation. Since there are so many different cartridges that a single caliber bullet can be loaded in, this is important information. Or just using a pistol cartridge in a carbine or rifle length barrel.

[@Michael-rg7mx]

@@ChristopherKnN A long time ago I read about impact studies. The velocity below 2100fps only left a wound channel. Above and it had a shocking effect on the nervous system. Regardless of design, if it stays in the animal at that speed then there is 100% energy transfer. I don't have the details but I do have autopsy experience. I would like to read your figures when compiled.

[@davejones67]

We do!

[@altonhughes1685]

Try loading a 45/70 with IMR 3031 verses a load with IMR 4064 you can really fill the difference. Try if you can. Or any Cal.

[@zacharyfrench9935]

On forgotten wepons Ian shoots a 4 bore stopping rifle from the 1800s it was a cartridge gun the cartridges look like artillery shells it's black powder.

[@wdtaut5650]

20:29 Excellent points, too often not considered. The manuals give test barrel length and too many shooters (me included) think that's what counts. I'm pretty well convinced it's the inside of the barrel that makes the biggest difference in velocities, not 2" of length.

[@archangel20031]

Even if a rifle is a one minute of angle rifle at 100 yards the slightest change up in ammo, be it projectile, powder, whatever could turn it into a 3 minute of angle rifle, and when you buy Factory ammo could be a glitch at the factory where that 180 grain bullet gets swapped out with 160 grain or the powder might be off a few grains.

[@308dad8]

He’s not saying cup and core bullets aren’t adequate hunting bullets, he’s saying you have to factor in the construction and what range when fired from what velocity will that bullet reliably perform on the intended game species because inadequate construction for a task will result in inadequate wound channel and penetration which we all know can lead to animals that get away and die somewhere they can’t be recovered.

[@garywoodlief1976]

I dont know how much it helps but i keep the barrel trned up while waiting for it to cool

[@308dad8]

Reloading manual library can’t be complete without a copy of Lyman. I have Lyman’s 47th, 49th and 50th and they have great data. Also Modern Reloading by Richard Lee, I think it or the second edition is available as a PDF for free online somewhere. Speer publishes their data for their bullets in cartridges they developed data for on their website for free. Other free data is Hodgdon. Just read and be sure you understand each step and order of operations BEFORE you grab powder and start seating bullets,

[@jjgriffin3275]

Barrel Cooling - a small portable fan blowing at an angle down the barrel and chamber.

[@jordanbrits3732]

Hi Ron, I am from South Africa, we almost never use shotgun slugs. You can’t even find ammunition for slugs. Well this is in my experience of the past 11 years. My father does not even recall ever hearing about one in South Africa for the past 25 years, that has been used.

[@ronspomer4366]

Thanks for this "on the scene" report, Jordan!

[@Michael-rg7mx]

Try casting your own. Simply open the shell, pour out the shot, and replace. I have shot deer as close as 10 feet away in the heavy brush. I'm quicker with a shotgun.

[@MrJtin69]

Well i know of a few who have lol so i call bs as u cant speak for everyone

[@jordanbrits3732]

@@MrJtin69 I stated my opinion on how rare it is for someone to hunt with a shotgun using a slug in South Africa specifically, I have a very wide knowledge as I am an outfitter in South Africa.

[@mfallen6894]

I totally agree with the first guy about the ELD-x; that's one of the worst performing hunting bullets I've ever used. Plain old soft points are far more effective. I had an Eld-x separate on impact of either a rib or the very edge of the shoulder of a whitetail from a .308 at about 120yd. I found a bunch of fur where he fell down, but he bolted. So the bullet just fell apart on impact. Very little blood to follow and I ultimately never found him. Maybe it was a fluke, but I'm never taking the chance with ELD-x again. I'll use Power Points or Core-lokts before I use the ELD-x, let alone more modern & proven designs like Partitions/Accubond's/etc. I'm sure other people have had success with them, but people have taken game with match bullets, that doesn't mean I'm going to start using SMK's, lol.

[@Suplexcityme316]

Punt guns / 2-8 gauge shotguns are what eliminated for the most part, Canvasbacks, which are super tasty and very pretty Ducks. Basically they were cannons loaded with nuts, bolts, pieces of scrap metal, mounted on a boat and let er rip. That's how the Chesapeake Bay Retriever made their name, cracking ice in the big bay with their bodies and retrieving Ducks all day covered in ice cycles.

[@Sourdough444]

I am getting into the 50 Beowulf to create the highest energy level and largest diiameter bullet for possible subsonic close range (@100 yards) hunting load. I am going to test it;s subsonic terminal performance against that of the 8.6 Blackout with 350gr Maker Trex bullet. In the 50 Beowulf, I'll be using a cast bullet weighing a little under 600gr.

[@lylewalters909]

Keeping the chamber/barrel cool you can buy a chamber chiller.. its a small fan that has a nipple that sets in the beginning of the chamber and blows air sown the barrel

[@ronaldjohnson1474]

The Lee & Lyman manuals are not bullet specific. The Lee manual, in particar, provides cartridge specifications that match IDENTICALLY to the originals.

[@approachingtarget.4503]

Good enough. Hit something with a 12gauge slug. Might not be in a vital zone!? But it's going to do some major damage. Is game down (good enough)?.

[@mikeparker2520]

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction (recoil) ...

[@dankosek2355]

Ron, I agree with the "Epistle according to Mark"... I love your channel and voice as well, but especially the knowledge you share. So what is the email address for us to ask you questions and add our ill knowledged opinions? I really liked the powder burn rate discussion as I am developing a new 20 gauge slug load and finding any data on amounts of what powder for a given projectile weight? I am currently using Longshot with some good results as I am trying to get to 2150FPS with a 200grain bullet. Any recommendations on which powder to use.

[@Hunting4knowledge]

450 bushmaster, you said .458 bushmaster socom. Tiny nitpicking over very similar cartridges. 450 bushmaster, .458 socom, 50 beowulf. All big bore calibers designed for the AR platform. 450BM is a straight wall whereas the other 2 have a slight taper if that matters for your regulations. Might be worth to do a dedicated video on them but in doing that I'd assume you'd find there are better options than the AR or 450 for straight walled outside of maybe a hog culling operation and the want of a big bore Caliber

[@fudgepie1]

Hi Ron. Can't comment about the rest of Africa but its illegal to use shotguns for hunting antelope in most provinces in South Africa. The exception is in Kwazulu Natal where it may still be legal to shoot bushbuck rams and common reedbuck rams on driven hunts. Its a bit of a throwback to the British colonial past and shotguns were considered safer than having a line of hunters lying in wait with rifles. I don't know if anybody still hunts for reedbuck (which are now protected) or bushbuck in this manner and shotguns are considered unethical for antelope due to the poor shot patterns and high rate of wounding. The provincial conservation and wildlife authorities are in the process of overhauling the legislation and I suspect the use of shotguns for hunting antelope species will probably be banned. Shotguns are however often used with slugs for hunting bush pig in combination with dog packs. Bush pig are not classed as ordinary or protected game and most hunting is on farms where they are doing damage to crops especially maize and sugar cane. The professional game croppers also use them when culling from helicopters.

[@gizmocarr3093]

I never been to Africa but have spent time in Alaska fishing and researching hunting Moose and Bears. It was common to see a 12-gauge shotguns carried by locals fishing for salmon. Most had a pump action short barrel model just in case they need one. If you are planning a hunt, it is also a good to inquire what rifle the locals most often use. Including the bullets and ammo they use, it gives you an idea of what you can expect will be suitable. Your concepts can be better if there proven from your own experiences. What magazine articles recommended and what the locals use can vary. I feel better knowing what local hunters use that hunt the animals I am planning to hunt. From experience, I would not expect shooting long-range shots hunting dangerous game or non-dangerous ones are required. Having a rifle that produces fine accuracy is great. What happens to your tiny groups without a shooting bench?🤔

[@Michael-rg7mx]

Practice. I shoot every week in my shop with an indoor bb gun. Off hand is everyone's worst position. You won't get better unless...

[@jasonstinson1767]

Hey Ron, on the difference in powder burn rates I'd like to offer a hypothetical scenario. With all things being equal between two rifles such as caliber, bullet weight, velocity, rifle weight, barrel length ect. with the only difference being one is modern smokeless and the other black powder. Id tend to believe a noticeable difference in recoil, due to black powder exploding and smokeless powder burning, would be observed. However I think this only a thought experiment in the hypothetical not having a use in all practicality. Great content as always. From Knob Creek Ky my regards. Jason

[@z987k]

I think the difference in recoil there, is typically there's a lot more black powder, by mass, and that same mass must be accelerated, not just the bullet. If you have 20gr more powder for the same velocity, the load with 20gr more will recoil a good bit more. If you have hypothetical smokeless where one fast burning powder could give the same velocity as a slower, but do it with less powder, it'd recoil less.

[@jasonstinson1767]

@@z987k Yes I am certain you are correct. It would likely take close to triple the amount of Black Powder as Smokeless due to the much higher energy density. However with caliber, projectile weight, barrel length and rifle weight then Newtons third law dictates to get both projectiles moving the same velocity, all other variables equal, it must be the same energy being transferred to the projectile and shooter as recoil is the same. I know there is no practical use i can foresee for this thought experiment. I was just trying to give an example of different powder types causing a noticeable variation in recoil.

[@z987k]

​@@jasonstinson1767 No, you also have to accelerate the weight of the powder, even if it's gas instead of solid. The extra weight of that air, 20gr? 50gr? (whatever the solid weight was) goes into the equal and opposite. So the less energy dense of powder is, the more recoil it causes due to it's own increased mass for the same velocity. Practical application - the 277 fury 150gr at 3000fps with ~47gr of powder, 270wsm - 150gr at 3000fps with ~61gr powder. Recoil is 18% less in the fury given equal rifle weights. Due to less mass accelerated.

[@strat1080]

I agree about the whole MOA accuracy obsession. People should spend less time obsessing over getting the absolute most accuracy at the range and more time practicing shooting under field conditions. Carlos Hathcock’s rifle wasn’t MOA. But that guy in the field could shoot his rifle better than most folks can now with all the high tech gadgets and superbly accurate rifles and bullets we have.

[@edwardabrams4972]

MOS is not as important as knowing your rifle and what it is capable of doing and knowing where it’s going to hit in the target!

[@jerrymartin5100]

I have been using MPBR, for 3 decades, Hornaday Interlock, Nosler Partition, Nosler Accubond, Barnes ttsx, are the best penetrators, and mushroom consistently, Cup and core bullets kill, but terminal performance is poor at best.

[@Sanquinar]

you're aware that a hornady interlock is also a cup and core bullet, right?

[@jerrymartin5100]

@@Sanquinar always killed what I shot at

[@Sanquinar]

@@jerrymartin5100 then why would you say that cup and core bullets have poor performance at best when it has never failed you?

[@jerrymartin5100]

@@Sanquinar not a true cup and core bullet, you are mistaken, the Interlock groove, locks the bullet in the jacket, so prove me wrong

[@Sanquinar]

@@jerrymartin5100 at that point it's simply arguing semantics. Cup and core bullets perform fine, and many would argue they have the potential to perform better than bonded bullets or monos. As with all bullets, it's simply a matter of choosing a good one for your application.

[@WillyK51]

Remember when Brenneke slugs were labeled Suitable for Pachiderms🤣

[@davejones67]

Ron, Have you ever done an episode on the various Weatherby cartridges and your thoughts on each? I’m trying to collect one in each caliber……I’m up to .300 Weatherby but skipped the 6.5 RPM and will skip the .338 RPM too as I just don’t see the point nor do I like Adam going away from the classic Weatherby stock shape…..Dave from Canada 🇨🇦

[@jerrymartin5100]

Isopropyl alcohol, evaporates extremely fast and cools quickly, just don't be around anything that could ignite it, smoking for example, works well.

[@Ben-ry1py]

I think your team is a little too liberal with their corrections. Nit picks seem like a bit of a waste of time that could be answering new questions. Great stuff as always Ron!

[@tatsuhirosatou5513]

I definitely see why he said 1moa at 100yds, bullet design effects how long a sub moa groups stays sub moa as some bullets that are sub moa at 100yds might drift beyond 1 moa at 300

[@45lcHardy]

I've learned that max loads are not always necessary for hunting or long range shooting it's just what you are comfortable with shooting. I like just a little over half power works on my loads anyone else feel the same?

[@justin3594]

Need more 277 Sig fury content.

[@leeadams5941]

Not wanting to sound like an old foggy, IMHO you can't do much better than the Partition by Noxxler in North America, I can't think of anything it has not taken multiple times successfully

[@kylemartin832]

Could be wrong but I thought the 378 Weatherby case was based off the 416 Rigby not 404 Jeffrey 👍🙏✌

[@willpenny5717]

You are right the 416 also has the double radius neck that weatherby used

[@ronspomer4366]

I think the 378 Wby. and 460 Wby were an original because rim and head diameters do not match the Rigby nor 404 Jeff.

[@kylemartin832]

@@ronspomer4366 that's most likely right, they also made a special case for the 240 Weatherby. It might be a necked down 30-06 with an added belt.

[@fedup3582]

404 Jeffrey?? Don't you think it is more likely that weatherby used the 416 rigby case instead of the 404 Jeffery?

[@timjohnson2731]

***ATTENTION RSO TEAM*** CORRECTION: This is a big one. Not only for you but, this is widely misunderstood amongst the shooting community. This is going to fire up ALOT of people, but it's a fact. If you don't believe it, call Applied Ballistics or read their books. NOBODY knows more about this than them, and that's where this information comes from. On a personal reference note, I have hit targets beyond 2,000yds and have many first round hits beyond 1,000yds with 12 different rifles that I own. (I fully understand how this stuff works and what it takes to do it.) Here we go: While MOA is an angular measurement, which you stated correctly. Group size does NOT adhere to that angular measurement. It can't. Group/shot "dispersion" which is what we're talking about is a RATE of dispersion. RATES are based on TIME not distance. The only way your group size would adhere to that 1 MOA of precision as it flies down range is if the velocity was constant, which it certainly is not. So, how your group size actually disperses down range is directly correlated to time of flight to a given range. This is why high velocity, with High BC bullets matter, when you shoot long range. They are more aerodynamic, so they spend less time in the air. Which decreases the amount of time wind can act on the bullet, but it also decreases the amount of time the bullets have to disperse from your point of aim. Look at one of your ballistics charts. The amount of wind drift as it flies down range IS NOT linear. Wind drift increases per 100yds as the bullet slows down. Group size does the same thing, it's not linear/angular. How to figure out your group size at distance: most ballistics solvers will give you time of flight. Take your 100yd group size, write that down. Now, take your time of flight at whatever range you are trying to calculate, divide that by your 100yd time of flight, and multiply that by your 100yd group size and you have your REAL group size at X range, before wind or anything else. Example: 308 Winchester with 2 different bullets. The 180 Partition(low bc) and the 178ELDM(high bc). Let's assume both bullets are fired at 2700fps and shoot 1" group's at 100yds. Let's say at standard atmospheric conditions, which is sea level. At 500yds, both bullets should shoot 5" group's right? WRONG. 180 Partition ACTUAL group size at 500yds: Time of flight(TOF) to 500yds = .720 seconds. TOF to 100yds = .116. So, .720/.116 = 6.207 6.207 X 1"@ 100yds = 6.207" group at 500yds.(BEFORE wind or shooter error, or anything else.) 178 ELDM ACTUAL group size at 500yds: TOF to 500yds = .655 seconds. TOF to 100yds = .115 seconds. So, .655/.115 = 5.696 5.696 X 1"@ 100yds = 5.696" group at 500yds( Again, before anything else.) Group size dispersion is not linear/angular, it never has been and never will be. Group size grows as the bullet slows down. Distance has nothing to do with the RATE of dispersion. I know, this was a lot and probably made some heads hurt, but, I hear this explained incorrectly all the time and wanted to clear the air to whatever degree I could. Because it's important to get our facts straight. Thanks Ron, love the channel.

[@anthonygendron9737]

For the love of God Ron it’s a 450 Bushmaster not a 458 Bushmaster. LOL you have said it wrong at least 6 times now.

[@artfejfar4062]

Sheeez😂 I am sorry Ron , some folks gotta not pick every single syllable they can to feel valued I could almost taste the sarcasm Love it My statement to them would be If you nit pickers actually know more than he does let me know , as I need to watch your perfect you tube channels…. Feel free to spell check me rofl

[@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast]

Well thanks Art. I almost hesitate to thank you lest readers think I'm making light of others. I like to treat everyone's opinions and ideas with respect, but sometimes, well, perhaps a bit of sarcasm leaks out. Sorry everyone. I still honor your right to disagree with me, and I always leave myself open to correction. Just provide us with the facts to support your position. Insults and name calling aren't needed. We're out to do something rare on social media: fact-based information.

[@techfixr2012]

Out to 300 yards, a 2 and a half will put food in the pot.

[@stormiewutzke4190]

I have some disagreement with some comments. First your guy who was complaining about rifles needing to be extremely accurate because of the margin of error. I work with standards for work. Most people don't really understand how they work. Nothing is perfect and a standard gives you the range of veriables are allowed to be in and be included in that standard. Just like what the speed limit changes depending on the area. A hunter should know what his rifle can do but acceptable accuracy depends on what and where he/she is hunting as well as any climate factors that come in as well as how he fits in. A 3" rifle is just fine under 100 yards but one doesn't shoot at game at a range when the only thing you know you can hit is somewhere on the animal. Hunting is all about knowing yourself and setting limits where you can be ethical. I think that likely it probably does have some effect although it's different than how your guy probably thinks. Slow powder doesn't mean that you can get more velocity if you have enough barrel. Powders contain different amounts of energy but then it gets incorporated into the case and how it's loaded and the rifle. What really matters is total pressure and gas volume. Often slower powders are designed to be more energy dense but they also have to deal with the fire retardant that is added to slow the burn. Your rifle can make a difference since pressure is part of increasing heat for a faster burn. Meaning a tighter bore will cause a faster powder burn. In theory a max load of an energy dense fast powder will develop pressure faster and increase the heat for an even faster burn and in a theoretical unlimited pressure bore this would develop the highest velocity and give the highest recoil. There is also something that you never talk about when it comes to recoil and that is rocket effect. This is the same thing that a muzzle break works off of so it does have a large effect. By using a powder that is at the fastest side of the spectrum for a given cartridge is likely to have an early pressure spike and will need to have less powder added so as to not go over the pressure limit for a cartridge. This would lead to lower velocity and less gas giving lower recoil. Why slow powders increase velocity is that even though most of the charge should be ignites while still in the case it's slow enough that the bullet begins to move and a small amount of movement will have a large effect at increasing internal volume. If you look at the pressure curve on a rifle that max pressure happens right away and the bullet travels out on the compressed gas and rapidly drops off. As the bullet moves down the barrel the internal volume is increasing dramatically. This is going to relieve pressure dropping temperature. The hot gasses are also being exposed to the cold bore further cooling them. Some experimental tanks cannons actually have plasma discharge the reheats the gas to keep the pressure up to increase velocity. This would increase recoil as well. Often people think that the powder is burning all the way down the barrel but that's not how it works and even on slow powders it's burned within the first few inches. The burning powder that exits is powder that has been smashed up against the bullet where the copper and the fact that it is compacted keeps the heat from building high enough to burn it until it is freed at exit. If we could keep pressure consistent for the full length of the barrel we could deliver far higher velocity but to do that we would need something much like a side fuel rocket engine sitting behind the bullet that keeps the bullet accelerated at the same rate for the full barrel length. We would then run into flame propagation limits. Flame propagation is limited by the speed of sound and that depends on the pressure developed. This is going to be one more factor in how fast a powder burns and what might be a slow powder in a low pressure cartridge will be much faster if used in a high pressure cartridge. So like you said it doesn't affect things in any real way but that's because we load to a pressure and expected performance giving the same total amount of energy m

[@adama1294]

Here is a question. If your rifle is rated at 80k psi and the cartridge Sammi spec is at 55k, would it be dangerous to go a little over 55k. Was wondering since sig rated the sig cross to the pressures they would see in the 277 fury.

[@ronspomer4366]

Adam, the only sensible approach from my perspective is to always stick with industry standards and SAAMI specs. I cannot condone experimenting with cartridges/rifles that are out of spec. Sig Sauer has built the 277 Fury and matching ammunition to withstand 80K psi. This is why the case heads are steel. I would not push a 55K rated case above that pressure.

[@techfixr2012]

Dude, just shoot the damned deer. Start with something .24 or above and until 200 yards your good. Just shoot it and enjoy you dinner.

[@JefF-rv7gp]

Lol.. I couldn't agree more.. 👍

[@edwardabrams4972]

Now if we could get all the sniper want to be’s to do just that hunting would be more enjoyable for everyone but what do I know about hunting and reloading just 60 years by best friend has been doing it for over 70 years and is still forgotten more then I will ever know!

[@jameswhitaker1324]

Maximum point blank range has nothing whatsoever to do with terminal ballistics. The argument is silly. While considering the bullet construction in choosing a hunting round is important, the terminal performance of that bullet has nothing to do with the mpbr of that load. Nothing. I get that he’s advocating for good hunting practices, but his brain is oatmeal mush.

[@ronspomer4366]

James, I might modify your declarative statement by noting that some bullets do not expand well at the MPBR of some cartridges/bullet B.C.s. One must consider impact energy when selecting bullets for terminal performance. Bullet materials/construction has no impact on MPBR from a ballistic perspective unless said construction degrades B.C. Fair enough?

[@johnnash5118]

Where's your argument? I just see a childish insult.

[@jameswhitaker1324]

@@ronspomer4366 what I’m trying to say is that maximum point blank range is simply the range at which your bullets will impact your target within the radius that is important to that shot without adjusting holdover. While it’s certainly important to consider what that bullet is capable of doing after impact, it’s not a factor in determining mpbr. I understand why a person would want to combine mpbr and bullet performance at the velocity at that range, to combine the two is to muddy the definition of point blank, a term often misused and already poorly understood. Also, yes, it’s certainly true that not all bullets will expand adequately at the mpbr, fmj doesn’t expand at any range, or at least not by design. Still, maximum effective range of a bullet is different from maximum point blank range. They’re two different things.

[@jameswhitaker1324]

@@johnnash5118 I would say that calling someone’s brain oatmeal mush is more of a grumpy old man’s insult, but I’ll leave that there. My argument was mostly summed up in the first sentence, which you evidently skipped reading.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast]

@@jameswhitaker1324 Yes sir. I've been an advocate of MPBR for hunting since the 1960s and it drives me nuts how reporters, especially, misuse the term. "He was shot at point blank range!" The range over which your bullet's trajectory stays within the vital zone of your game determines PBR. Carry on!

[@danielswartz6818]

It took over 12 minutes to get to the point of your title. Tooo much bull shit.

[@roddecker1900]

Heavy 4 caliber up to 2800. Ruins enough.if that doesn't work get bigger caliber .[ 4 hunting ] its really just like that.3030 only goes1800. / 2400 ( books) works fine. When reloading its to inspiring to get in paper chase. Not worth it . Tell her u going get another gun. Add 300$ to price for tool head and material. More like 500$ rember that part later 🥺🦬🦬🦬🐎🐎