Does Romans 9-11 Teach Calvinist Predestination? (Ben Witherington)

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Does Romans 9-11 teach Calvinist predestination? In this Seven Minute Seminary, Ben Witherington explains that Paul's aim is to refute the idea that God now favored the Romans, or Gentiles, rather than the Jews. In the process, he explains how the terms predestination, election, and salvation relate-or don't relate-to one another.
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[@abomination2theLord]

what does Ben teach on how to get saved and know for sure my soul goes to heaven? Love 4Truth!

[@jhabernathy690]

Horrible exegesis, behavior matters! Wow! I guess that is such hostile idea (sarcasm) that Paul says, “who are you to question God”. Foreknowledge is best understood as foreknown. Typical Wesley garbage. Methodist are just Catholics who don’t pray to Mary and the saints.

[@elduromiguel06]

This just blows my mind. God is so good to me.

[@catpocalypsenow8090]

Romans 9:18 So then, God has mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy, and he hardens whom he chooses to harden.

[@anthonywhitney634]

That's right, if God chooses to have mercy on Gentiles as well as Jews, that's his choice. Just as he can choose to harden Jews or Gentiles, their heritage counts for nothing. But we're saved by grace though faith.

[@Mattissaved]

You can’t take election away from God without elevating man as sovereign….this guy is no different. He doesn’t even know what foreknowledge is…..nothing to see here

[@forhisglory700]

Well said.

[@goodguy6271]

Jesus Christ died for ALL. Everyone has the choice to believe in Jesus. Calvinism is a false teaching. Kevin Thompson - Beyond the Fundamentals. Excellent Bible teacher who by using scripture, destroys the false teaching of Calvinism

[@tracyrheineck590]

Gods hardening is always done for redemptive purposes. Taken in context, Roman's 9-11 is God's dealing with the hard-hearted Israelites who have turned their back to God. Like the potter in Jeremiah 18, God takes existing clay and reshapes it for his purposes. In Rom 9, Paul is clarifying that God's shaping Israel into a vessel for destruction (like 2 Tim: 2) is to propel the gospel to the gentiles. And, btw, Paul clarifies in Rom 11 that, after our loving God grafts the gentiles into Him, the Israelites can be grafted back in as well if they repent...turn back to Him. Rom 9 says nothing about individual salvation. It is about God's sovereignty in how He Provides for All...if we humble ourselves and submit to Him!! Amen!

[@dennistsyts]

He’s assuming that Paul is assuming that the gentiles are assuming… this is not a way to study the scriptures. The word of God is accurate and precise. There should never be any “assumptions”

[@kevinbarton1661]

Do justly Love mercy Walk humbly

[@KingjamesAV1611]

Get that from a fortune cookie or something 🤔 🤣🤣🤣

[@Kevin-pe1kj]

Absolutely beautifully spoken sir, thank you for making this video.

[@tinamariedunn8278]

Thank you HEAVENLY FATHER THANK LORD JESUS FOR YOUR SALVATION FOR ALL WHO BELIEVES AND TRUST IN YOUR. BLESSED SALVATION AND RESSURECTION POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT FOR ALL GENTILES AND JEWISH BELIEVERS WILL BE SAVED.. BY FAITH IN YOU .... THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS WORD OF GOD SCRIPTURES 9:11 IN ROMANS...

[@charlespritchett1756]

Great summary

[@justinchamberlain3443]

Tremendous thank you sir!

[@paulmcwhorter]

For clarity in understanding what you are saying, today, there are Hebrews who are dying without Christ. What is your conclusion of their eternal destiny? Are they part of 'All Israel'? This is a sincere question.

[@falconguy4768]

Awesome

[@TheJpep2424]

Yes. predestination is clearly and repeatedly taught in scripture.

[@aposkaris2993]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/f6PMdGipnt57nZo Romans 9 explained

[@PocketMarmo04]

You apparently did not see the same video the rest of us saw

[@anthonywhitney634]

Yes, those who reject Christ are predestined for destruction.

[@calebd.1463]

Before the foundations of the Earth. does this guy have a booger in his nose?

[@calebd.1463]

When JESUS CHRIST was on the cross, only by his works (which is FATHER found acceptable) and by his blood. he washed away his churches sin (the saved). JESUS CHRIST would know who I am in the future and my sins that he washed away (it is my fault, due to my sins that the SON OF GOD - JESUS CHRIST came down and gave himself as a perfect sacrifice). What loving FATHER, MESSIAH (JESUS CHRIST) & HELPER (HOLY SPIRIT) we the church have. JESUS CHRIST knows all (from before time, during time and after time).

[@reaganspencer8235]

Here’s the thing, I’m in the middle on all of this but when you look at 7-23. Paul clearly is talking about some type election. Talking about Jacob and Esau before they did anything wrong they were lectured by God. These two are specifically talked about being picked by God, then he follows up with Jacob I loved Esau I hated. Back to 11 though “they were not yet born and done nothing either good or bad in order that Gods uprose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls--she was told” then states Jacob I loved Esau I hated. Then Paul says this, 14-18 “What shall we say then? Is there injustice on Gods part? (Injustice inferring by choosing some to have his mercy on…assumed) By no means! For he says to Moses “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion” So then it depends not on human will but on God, who has mercy. For scripture says to Pharaoh “For this very purpose I have raised you up that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all of the Earth” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills and he hardens whom ever he wills.” 19-23 explains it even more about Gods will and how he chooses. If Paul was simply talking about Gentiles and guys why this talk about mercy and compassion to whoever and that it is not man’s choose but God? Look I’m not a Calvinist I’m still trying to figure all of this out, but I think it’s starting be clear. Espesians 1 is very intriguing like this, but predestined and adopted are both used like they are in this chapter, I don’t think it’s a coincidence. But above all, Jesus did die for us. Don’t let this divide us or hate, for one thing is certain, Jesus died for us and as long as we have faith in him we are saved!!

[@bryanjeter]

To support his position, he could have easily recalled the story of Saul on the road to Damascus where Jesus patiently waited for Saul's works to cause him to come to faith. He could have also demonstrated the many great works done by the theif on the cross beside Jesus.

[@mickeyfoeller771]

Rightly dividing ( as per 2 Tim.2:15) through a Pauline Mid-Acts understanding of the KJB would clear up all the confusion that's out there surrounding Romans 9,10 & 11. Paul is talking about Israel's program in those chapters, which is not the same as the mystery program that the Body of Christ is under.

[@terria.mccurdy9190]

...you do realize & certainly concede that you & i speak our opinions on spiritual matters that we are in the process of striving to understand ourselves... is it not clear to you that you & i will only truly understand anything, only according to when & how God has set our time & place to do so...? eccl 3, romans 8, acts 17, job 32-40... your knowing & my knowing are at this present time grossly incomplete...may we humbly, in increasingly love share our faith, our testimony of our personal relationship with God & our opinions about ambiguous issues of the biblical text...i pray that we are not so arrogant as to presume that our current understanding of spiritual matters is authoritative for all others... terri a.

[@Music-zm5bi]

Sounded like he snuck in works salvation in there at around 7 minutes in. Maybe he meant as proof? I would like him to have clarified that.

[@catpocalypsenow8090]

No it’s not works salvation. The NT says many things like this.

[@richardwashington421]

So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:17‭, ‬24 ESV He is saying "saving faith" is evidenced by the work of the Spirit outworking in your life. It's easy to say you have faith but saving faith will have works, but the works aren't in the flesh but by the Spirit inside. This is sanctification below. work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Philippians 2:12‭-‬13 ESV This is the out "working" of the what God's grace is working in us. Not works based salvation - present tense - sanctification since God is the one willing it and giving grace to "work" by His Spirit. Example below with Paul's ministry: But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. 1 Corinthians 15:10 ESV He "worked" harder but it wasn't him, it was the grace within him.

[@333Paradigm333]

Our behaviour does not determine our salvation, our faith does. Surprised to see this works salvation being taught so blatently. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

[@jaygee6261]

In pure Wesleyan fashion …

[@adamduarte895]

Easy believism

[@claudecharest7018]

Phillipians 1, 29 to believe is a Grace given by God only and the word "that "in eph.2;8 includes grace ,saved and...faith

[@333Paradigm333]

@@claudecharest7018 Sorry my friend Ephesians 2:8 is inclusive language that is referring to salvation as a whole "it is the gift of God" (Saved by the grace of God, by putting our faith in Christ, it is a gift, not of works). As for your first statement, you should read the Gospel of Luke, and take note how many times JESUS says: "THY FAITH has healed thee". You would really have to ignore Romans 4 when it says over and over that faith is not a work for your theory to be sound. Abraham Justified by Faith 4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? >>>“Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.>HIS FAITH is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness APART FROM WORKS:

[@brandonmshrock]

Just here trying to figure out calvinism and westleyan views. Appreciate these clear explanations with so much Scripture packed in!

[@forhisglory700]

If you "believe" that PREdestination began with Calvin; you'd be dead wrong. It began in Genesis.

[@florencialopez8599]

Can you reconcile what you’re saying with Romans 9:11-13 please?

[@bobpolo2964]

I think Romans 9 is Paul's existential argument for volitional choice. He's saying the big picture is God's choice of salvation without regard to human participation. Yet, individuals will still be held accountable for their response to the gospel. God's sovereignty is a mystery, but your choices will be judged, so choose wisely. That's Romans 9

[@markhaney2884]

Exactly, I call it the battle between old covenant mentality (by works/effort/following law i can please God) and The New Covenant Reality ( Grace of God available by faith In Christ period). Can't have it both ways and be the elect. Paul is warning the gentiles not to make the same mistake made by many Jews. And at the same time letting those lost Jews know they can be grafted back into the family!!!!

[@johncollins6755]

...I HIT SOMETHING...AND LOST THE POST...SO i WILL TRY AGAIN.... This portion of scripture is difficult for so many people... GOD...has not forsaken Israel, Paul is a perfect example. GOD has not abandoned Israel. GOD has not excluded Israel from the plan of salvation...based upon them being Jews. Paul lists all the reasons of history that belong to Israel...even though they proved unfaithful...GOD does not exclude them from obtaining salvation through Jesus Christ. Salvation is open to them, just like anyone else. That is what Paul is saying. First...this small portion of writing, Rms. 9-11, does not negate the fullness of scripture, as it discusses salvation of the people(s)...Christ has performed many things with his sacrifice, his ministry. Any work of Christ cannot be UNDONE. So, our understanding of any scripture must keep in mind, that we cannot change, or undo, anything that Christ has completed. "...you will be a father of many nations...". Abraham is the father of all those who believe......Eph. 2:14-22, informs us that Christ has taken these..."two men"... (peoples) and made then into "one new man" (people). This is so that Christ may present "us" to GOD in one body...by the work of the cross, a habitation for GOD. There is no work, no event, that is possible to...SPLIT...this one new man, back into two separate men (peoples). This is cannot transpire.... The verses speak of the blindness of the Jews; "...until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in...". Those next verses...DO NOT...speak of some great awakening of Israel. They speak of the conclusion of the salvation...of all people. "All Israel being saved"...does not address...a physical nation of Israel. In order to be saved, it must be through conversion...NOT GEOGRAPHY. "All Israel", is all those who are the children of Abraham, all those who are believers. That is what is being said, nothing more. Scripture repeats that we, who are believers, are the children of Abraham...AND...those after the flesh, the natural Jews...ARE NOT...Jews. Scripture describes it both ways...in the affirmative and in the negative...WHO IS AND WHO IS NOT...Jews! Unless you think that "all Israel" means...ALL ISRAEL....Then even the leaders of Israel, who crucified Christ...will be saved. Along with all those unrepentant Jews, from the days of Jacob, who died in sin, or without accepting Christ as their personal Savior...will be saved. Or even the Jews, at that moment in time that Paul is speaking of, who have not accepted Christ, will be saved...because..."all" Israel will be saved. Salvation is not based upon the DNA of anyone......

[@stevenklinkhamer9069]

Very good. Couldn't agree more.

[@randomdad1234]

How do you handle Matthew 24:14 with this logic? Or do you cut that out of The Bible?

[@DustinHarrisWHBC]

He says nothing to contradict Matthew 24:14

[@lilwaynesworld0]

Calvanist were predestined to make snarky remarks in response to this video

[@claudecharest7018]

Phil 1,29 believe it's a Grace given by God

[@bobfree1226]

Ben is exactly correct and in Context!!

[@lawrence1318]

"All Israel shall be saved" does not mean "All Israel at some time in the future shall be saved", but "All Israel whenever they exist shall be saved". So it is necessarily speaking of the Israel of God, the spiritual Israel.

[@lawrence1318]

@@Rileyed Your reply is precluded by what I have pointed out.

[@lawrence1318]

@@Rileyed You haven't thought about what I have said. Again, the sentence "All Israel shall be saved" means, by definition, that every Israelite who has ever lived, will be saved. That is what the sentence means. So it can only be referring to the Israel of God.

[@lawrence1318]

@@Rileyed No the word says what I have quoted. "All Israel shall be saved". The sentence means what it says. So it is necessarily the case that it is referring to the Israel of God. For it means all Israelites, whenever they exist in history, shall be saved. Similarly, if I said "All English people shall be saved", I'm not referring to some time in the future, but to all English people whenever they exist. So whatever you've read elsewhere in scripture, you need to submit it to the logic of this here at Rom 11:25,26.

[@lawrence1318]

@@Rileyed We interpret the OT by the NT, not the other way around. "All Israel shall be saved" doesn't mean "It will eventually be the case that all Israelites shall be saved", but simply "All Israelites shall be saved". Since it is obvious that all Israelites of the flesh are not saved, the verse necessarily is in reference to the "Israel of God" which pays no regard to the flesh. So that is our starting point when we read the OT.

[@lawrence1318]

@@Rileyed We do in fact know. It is written: "All Israel shall be saved". This means any Israelite, whenever in history he may live, will be saved. Clearly then this is not speaking about physical Israel, for they are dying like flies right now and going to a lost eternity. So it is speaking of the only Israel God is concerned with, His Israel, appropriately entitled "the Israel of God". "The "Israel of God" means "God's one and only Israel". You need to spend a lot more time reading Paul.

[@fernandopaulus9088]

This video going over the heads of Calvinist, so sweet.

[@joelwoody517]

Afraid not. He's just not correct

[@timothykring4772]

@@joelwoody517 that is correct. He is wrong, and he started with erroneous definitions of foreknowledge and election.

[@timothykring4772]

Then he got into his erroneous view of eschatology.

[@aposkaris2993]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/f6PMdGipnt57nZo Romans 9 explained

[@KingjamesAV1611]

@@joelwoody517 can you prove Calvinism using scripture in CONTEXT??

[@christophermetze757]

Clear refutation of Calvisint doctrine. Paul is actually warning the gentiles NOT to be secure in salvation- why would he need do to such a thing if he's purportedly laying out the understanding of double-predestination?

[@vebnew]

I started out as a creature of dust with free will. (Romans 8:13 KJV) I resisted sin unto death and was saved under the blood of Jesus Christ, resurrected and sealed unto righteousness by God. (Revelation 12:11 KJV) Then I was predestinated and placed in this world to be manifested in power and glory as part of the body of Jesus Christ by God. (Romans 8 :29, 30 and 9:11 KJV)

[@PocketMarmo04]

What?!?!? If you had free will and you resisted sin unto death you could not possibly have been placed into the world a 'second' time. There is then no predestination.

[@vebnew]

​@@PocketMarmo04 When commenting on videos or talking about God with others I attempt to be mindful of the other individuals level of understanding before write or say anything. I fail in this often. I was and continue to be overwhelmed by Gods love for all of us. In the Isaiah 64:1 - 5 KJV Isaiah starts out in verse 1 longing for God to put and end to this world. In verse 2-3 Isaiah is remember what it was like as the last world came to an end when he was unaware and not looking for it to end. In verse 4 Isaiah acknowledges that people in this world this day are just like Isaiah was in the last world; in that is he had not seen by eye or perceived by ear what God was going to do at the end of the last world --- therefore the people of today have not seen by eye or perceived by ear what God is going to do at the end of this world. (Romans 8:13 KJV) In verse 5 Isaiah address the others like him (the ones that remember the end of last world) (Romans 8:29, 30 and 9:11 KJV) and yes there is predestination. I hope this helps clarify…. May God bless!

[@vebnew]

@@PocketMarmo04 Romans 8:29 KJV must not be in your Bible: “For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.” Good luck and may God bless!

[@drb8786]

What do you guys think about Norm Geisler?

[@nealwright5630]

Ben emphasized corporate election in Romans 9-11... and then switched to individual behavior concerning the same scripture in order to refute "security of the believer". I don't think that's right. Ephesians 4:30 my friend.

[@The_Scouts_Code]

Agree. The wilderness generation were unable to enter the promised land, but that didn’t mean the promised land is a picture of eternal life. Moses didn’t enter the promised land either, but wasn’t he was saved?

[@reformedtulip4093]

This man is deceived.. Read RC sproul books and MILLARD ERICKSON books..

[@johncollins6755]

@@The_Scouts_Code ...A couple of comments for you (?)...# 1...the "wilderness generation"...DID ENTER...the promised land. # 2 Moses didn't enter the promised land...because...it took Joshua...to lead them into the promised land... Should you look at those passages again you can see the correlation for...every believer... # 1...we all are on a journey, a wilderness generation...looking to obtain the "promised land"....."in the world, but not of the world"... # 2...the unbelieving world, also a wilderness generation, will all perish...without obtaining the "promised land"....." the wages of sin is death"... Moses...was/is the "law giver"...which was/is...NOT SUFFICIENT...to bring us into Eternal Life...and therefore, by extension...bring us into the "promised land"... Joshua...in the greek is...IESOUS...or...JESUS...who is necessary for us to enter...IF...we follow him... Should you look at the verses that declare that the "children" had not been circumcised...while on the journey in the wilderness... AFTER...they had "crossed over" they were then circumcised...ON THAT SIDE..... O.T. saints...crossed over Jordan (passing into eternal life)...WITHOUT...the baptism of the Holy Spirit (see Paul regarding "circumcision" of the flesh/of the heart)... They would receive this "baptism/circumcision"...Holy Spirit...AFTER THEY HAD "CROSSED OVER"...and we would see their resurrection in Mat. 27:52, 53...Eph. 4:8... There is much more there...but I thought I would just send you this... Bless John

[@aposkaris2993]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/f6PMdGipnt57nZo Romans 9 explained

[@matthewpohlman]

What 'behavior' are you referring to in order to maintain salvation? Jews were cut off for unbelief, not failure to keep the law.

[@bobfree1226]

GOD Knows that i will attend church this Saturday but GOD also knows if i wont show up!!

[@michaelbrickley2443]

Bob Free, He sees all

[@paulgarduno9756]

If getting into the promised land, equals Salvation ?..(as you imply) then Moses did not get saved. That's bad news.

[@Mirro.555]

Maybe "to get saved" is more relevant?

[@geraldjohnson8871]

**I beilieve all Gods Word states in the (Deut**5:10**) Mercy of Almighty God depends on one and only one thing, That.keep my,** (Gods) commandments**

[@TRUTHINCHRIST-cw8ke]

I dont understand why christiand call themselves and their religion after another man. Didnt Paul talk about this?

[@aletheia8054]

It’s not Calvinist Predestination. It’s Paulist Predestination. Or Christ predestination. WHOM he foreknew knew he predestinated to conform to the icon of Christ.

[@Darthrocker06]

If you're going to quote a verse, quote it correctly.

[@aletheia8054]

@@Darthrocker06 Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

[@Darthrocker06]

@@aletheia8054 Yes, look at how that verse is worded. Because he knows who's going to believe in him (foreknowlege) He predestined those who will believe in him to be conformed to the image of his son. Foreknow and predestinate are separated by the word "also",which means they are 2 different things.

[@aletheia8054]

@@Darthrocker06 But you said I didn’t quote it correctly. But I did.

[@aletheia8054]

@@Darthrocker06 “ God knows who’s going to believe” you got that right. He sure does. And he predestinated them to conform to the icon of Christ.

[@hopeunlimited2024]

very good explanation. There’s the small matter of AD70 though. Paul write this letter well before that time and was expecting Jesus to return at any moment. However, history has overtaken what he spoke about. The question remains, that after AD70 Israel ceased to exist. So which Jews is he talking about that are going to be saved? Sorry, but it’s not the current poilitical nation of that name. Otherwise, good stuff.

[@christophgouws6199]

Analyzing to much, trying to reason according to the flesh, just read what it says. Remember Paul didn't divide it into chapters and verses.

[@willpotter8772]

Wait a minute...you could be an Israelite and not know God that is by blood, but one can not be in the body of Christ without being born again by Gods spirit..which means everyone in the Church is individually saved. Seems an mixing of categories is taking place at 4:18

[@bayreuth79]

Paul does not teach that there are people who will be lost (i.e, damned for all eternity). In fact one can make a cogent argument for the notion that Paul taught universal salvation. Finite sins are simply not commensurate with an infinite punishment.

[@user-cc1rc1gr3k]

God elected individuals. 1Thess1:4-5 Abraham,Jeremiah,Paul, John the Baptist, Jacob, etc. Every individual who is , or will be saved, are elect,i.e.chosen.

[@mel3256]

This commentary is good but does not address a significant element. He states thee is no predestiny but in the segment of Romans it refered to the story of Jacob and his brother, stating God hated the brother before he was born . That guy was screwed by his predestiny. What could he have done to change that? God states the guy was hated/not chosen before birth. Really think about that. Very few commentators go into predestiny because it is hard and I don't think we like it. Much is beyond our abilities, but it is still hard to swallow....how can humans have 100% free will yet predestiny is mentioned many times throughout scripture. Both cannot be 100% true.

[@johncollier3175]

Saul/Paul's free will was putty in God's hands.God does the choosing, why didn't Jesus appear to Saul's companions ? It's all there in this story of Paul's conversion

[@dionsanchez6097]

Foreknowledge in the Greek NT does not mean simply "knowing something before hand." See Edgar Goodspeed on this. It means to mark out someone Rom 8...Those whom he called...he JUSTIFIED...

[@dionsanchez6097]

Dr. Witherington forgets that in the NT there are two types of calling.

[@dionsanchez6097]

They only problem with foreknowledge being equated with causation is in your mind. As Gordon Clark argued, in the scriptures, God is presented as the cause of all things, even evil, yet is not the one who is held responsible. Judas was foreordained to betray Christ, he couldn't have done anything different, yet, he was the guilty party.

[@dionsanchez6097]

My concept does maintain both His sovereignty and man's free will. But of course, your understanding of free will is not from the scriptures if you mean free will as a human person choosing to do something apart from the divine will. Nothing happens or can happen apart from the will of God. What's the issue? You haven't shown how this view is unbiblical, only that you don't like it. Have a nice day.

[@bobpolo2964]

escow - Does God learn? Has there ever been a time in eternity where God acquired new knowledge?

[@aposkaris2993]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/f6PMdGipnt57nZo Romans 9 explained

[@jameshughes2911]

He's just plane wrong. I'm a little weary of the debate right now. For Arminians its the hermeneutic of feeling...

[@raffakaruzo8611]

Faith without work is dead

[@rev.stephena.cakouros948]

Acts 13:48 is Calvinism.

[@billyr9162]

8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. If you want to say God predestined people to get saved you couldn't say it any more clear than that. yet somehow people still deny it.

[@johndoe-ln4oi]

He created all of us with the hope we would choose Him over evil, but He gave us the choice. That is the meaning of the passages you quote, not that God created human beings for the soul purpose of tormenting them in hell. That Calvinist misinterpretation is not in keeping with the nature of God.

[@KennyandJordie]

What does this passage say that we are predestined for?

[@KingjamesAV1611]

@@KennyandJordie ....to be CONFORMED to image of His Son!!! 🙌

[@anthonywhitney634]

Fore-knowing who will accept Christ ("love God") is not causal. Those who accept Christ are predetermined to become conformed...etc. The same who "love God" are called, are justified, are glorified.

[@billyr9162]

@@anthonywhitney634 yes. That's what it says. He knew them beforehand.

[@johncollier3175]

Calvin's beliefs are shown to be true in the account of Paul's conversion on the road..

[@KingjamesAV1611]

Great job!!!! If only Calvinist could see a biblical view of Romans 9-11. Keep up the good work!!

[@aposkaris2993]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/f6PMdGipnt57nZo Romans 9 explained

[@paulgarduno9756]

You obviously donot understand Foreknowledge..,Predestination,.. Calling for justification, Glorification. Every single action, is God's alone!

[@jeff4truth]

I agree with some of this guys conclusions, but disagree with others. I am looking for someone to study this with.

[@michaelbrickley2443]

Bible Studies with Jeff, Differences in opinion are allowed. It is only heresy/no faith, that will get us condemned

[@pearuh496]

@@michaelbrickley2443 that's not what Jeff was asking.

[@pearuh496]

Man, did this guy just say Moses was lost since he wasn't one of the 2 that got into the promised land? Moses was at the transfiguration. With Elijah...who was carried into Heaven. 🤦‍♀️

[@goldenweather]

I agree with most of it! But did he say, we're not eternally secure until we're in eternity. Apparently if we don't behave properly God will cut us off, so no-one can actually be sure of their salvation. Work based salvation is always something we have to overcome.

[@fullfrontalgrace]

Greetings in our Saviour Jesus Christ. With respect and humbly with love in Christ: Behaviour??? SERIOUSLY??? Behaviour??? Paul is clear as the day is bright, it was for UNBELIEF that were cut off. Where do you get off even implying let alone outright declaring it was their behaviour? Unbelievable. Let me be CRYSTAL CLEAR: In English from the Greek the word Paul uses is UNBELIEF (In and out of CONTEXT). Splice it dice it blend it; for UNBELIEF they were cut off. PERIOD. Humbly with love in Christ, TJBreen🕊✝️❤️🔥🔥🔥

[@johncollins6755]

...so then...are you saying that...UNBELIEF...IS NOT...BEHAVIORAL...What is it then? Would you say that "walking after the spirit"...is not behavior as well? Behavior is what we do with our lives...how we live them out. It is "how" we behave.....in either accepting Christ, or rejecting Christ.....

[@fullfrontalgrace]

@@johncollins6755 No John it is not behavioral. Nor is walking after the Spirit, though walking after the Spirit DETERMINES our behavior as does our believing. But these in and of themselves are not our behavior. Believing is deterministic of our salvation and then of our behavior by the Spirit. Walking after the Spirit is walking in that which we have been recreated, not simply behavioral. This new state then determines our new "behavior"...most of the time. With love in Christ Jesus, TJBreen 🕊✝️❤🔥🔥🔥🙏🙌

[@johncollins6755]

@@fullfrontalgrace ...glad to see you utilized the word.. .behavior.. .repeatedly in your response...great post, unfortunately...it undermines your perspective...try again...

[@fullfrontalgrace]

@@johncollins6755 Don't need to John, the point is made and you failed to defend your position because it's indefensible. You conflate behavior, belief and its purpose in the gospel. It's not to iniate change of behavior unto salvation, it is to save by His grace alone by faith alone in Christ alone THAT NO FLESH CAN BOAST (behavior) do ya get it yet?. I'll let that sink in for you...⏳that should do it. (But judging from your lack of understanding, probably not) If you think I'm being insulting, think again, think Hebrews and milk and not meat.

[@fullfrontalgrace]

@@johncollins6755 And by the way, pick up your KJV bible and look up Romans 11:20 that he is misquoting. IT WAS FOR UNBELIEF that they were cut off NOT for misbehavior! Such corruption of the scripture is unconscionable.

[@gracearmor]

Everything sounded good until he said "If you misbehave you'll be broken off" The Bible makes it very clear that we're not saved by works. I guess nobody's going to heaven then. Am I saying misbehaving's okay? No!

[@abckids3476]

You kept using the term for knowledge as a noun. Something God has or possesses. But it's a verb. It's something he does. And the word in The Bible is not an English word. It's a Greek word.

[@lisalord6706]

2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” JESUS died for ALL Sinners. He provided a WAY for ALL Sinners to be saved. Sadly, most Sinners choose to reject God's free GIFT of Salvation, by faith alone, in what he DID to atone for the sin of the world. We all have a FREE WILL to believe in what Jesus DID = DONE, to pay for the sin of the world, OR....we can choose to reject God's free GIFT by our UN-BELIEF in what Jesus DID on the cross to (provide redemption for mankind) (be reconciled back to a holy and just God). The first Adam in Genesis, chose to disobey God's command to NOT eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The second Adam (Jesus) chose to OBEY God's will, in order to fulfill Old Testament prophecies about the coming Messiah. His sweat was very intense in the Garden of Gethsemene (like as blood - thick) for the agony and pain that he was about to go through, as the perfect sacrifice for the sin of the world. John 1:29 (KJB). Jesus chose to become the sacrificial LAMB of God that taketh away the sin of the world. No man took his life from him. He chose to GIVE his life as a ransom for lost Sinners. Romans 5:8 says so. NO sin can be in the presence of a holy and just God. Only JESUS was without sin. He obeyed God's 10 Commandments perfectly. GOD ALMIGHTY GAVE TO MANKIND THE GREATEST GIFT OF ALL. HE GAVE HIMSELF IN HUMAN FLESH. Jesus was GOD in human flesh. Many people falsely believe that they have to DO certain good deeds to EARN their way into heaven. A true GIFT can NOT be earned. It does need to be received by faith alone in what JESUS did (DONE) on behalf of sinful mankind. I've broken ALL of God's 10 Commandments. I deserve God's justice. I deserve to burn in hell for my sin debt that I owe. I could never DO enough good deeds in my entire lifetime to earn my way into heaven. Either you have a DO (works salvation religion), or you have a DONE (personal relationship with Jesus) (by faith in what he DID) on behalf of ALL Sinners. We have FREE WILL to choose LIFE or Death. Those that lived in the Old Testament days also had FREE WILL to choose LIFE or Death. Deuteronomy 30:19-20 (KJB). Most of them died in the wilderness due to their UNBELIEF in what GOD was able to do for them. Only Joshua and Caleb entered into the Promised Land, because they BELIEVED God was more than able to DO what he said. JESUS LOVES ALL SINNERS. Sadly, most Sinners do NOT love Jesus. Ephesians 2:8-9, John 1:12, John 3:3, John 3:16-18, 36, Acts 16:30-31, Romans 3:10, 23, Romans 5:8, 12, (Romans 6:23), Romans 10:9-13, 1st Corinthians 15:1-4, 2nd Corinthians 5:17. Read from the old Authorized 1611 King James Holy Bible online. Beware of the 1769 Blaney KJV. Things that are different are NOT the same.

[@michaeljaymurdock8421]

How is he sure Cyrus is not saved? Out of the same book..... Romans 10.9 that if thou shall confess with thy mouth Lord Jesus and thou shall believe that God raised him from the dead thou shall be saved" NOW, what about this one "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord' Isaiah 45-48; Philippianssss 2:11 etc/?

[@Over-for-now]

No NOT calvininist predestination BUT it is scriptural predestination. God receives ALL the GLORY and will not share HIS GLORY with another

[@1944wesley]

It,s about the Church not Isreal

[@PocketMarmo04]

Calvinism destroys faith, because it destroys the need to explore one's relationship with God, or pursue the grace that faith brings, and trains the Calvinist to believe that he is somehow virtuous automatically in the eyes of God, and that he does not need to participate in his own salvation.

[@reaganspencer8235]

Well for a Calvinist that believes that has a problem because if they do believe God elects people then, he should know even though there is election God tells us what’s good and what’s wrong and “rules” we should follow because it’s his will. Any Calvinist that would disobey God because of he was chosen clearly doesn’t understand Gods desire for us to obey him. But also if you’re truly saved you will become more and more like Jesus(never will attain a sinless life clearly) but that is a promise from God. So hopefully those Calvinist’s would not damn anyone else’s salvation if God doesn’t elect us

[@yqafree]

I think this is pretty astute, there's a few things I'd add/alter to the commentary but it's very well put better than dispensationalism is to understand God's only able to marry and remarry His bride

[@yqafree]

It also deflates the hubris of Judean blood thinking it's a birth rite of blood line salvation, I think Israel is the church always has been

[@KingjamesAV1611]

Dispensational truth.....is Bible!!! 😊

[@yqafree]

Dispensationalism = 🌙🌙💩💨 and devil lies 😁

[@KingjamesAV1611]

@@yqafree ....very interesting 🤔 I think you're sound theology response, has changed my opinion about Dispensational truth. 🤣🤣🤣

[@SpotterVideo]

Based on Luke 21:24-28 the times of the Gentiles comes to fullness at the future Second Coming of Christ. Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, Israel and the Church cannot be disconnected. James addressed his letter to "the twelve tribes" who were his "brethren" in "faith". Who was James talking to if he was not talking to Israel? Watch the KZbin video "The New Covenant" by Bob George.

[@JohnAnderson-ss9vn]

WHY WOULD GOD HAVE CHOSEN PEOPLE IN THE FIRST PLACE SURELY THAT IS GROSSLY UNFAIR TO EVERYONE ELSE

[@aletheia8054]

Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

[@j.milesyasharahla1381]

Roman s 9:1 says "beloved of God called to be saints. They are Israelites. The wild olive branches are Israelites not Heathen Nations.

[@outofthisworld8037]

Deliberately twisting God's word.. be careful hell is a very hot place

[@j.milesyasharahla1381]

@@outofthisworld8037 scripture says grafted 'back' in. How can you be grafted back into something you were never a part of? Only Israel was given the law. 1 Corinthians 12:2 [2]Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

[@outofthisworld8037]

@@j.milesyasharahla1381 again deliberately twisting scriptures.. study the word brither before making false claims. I know koine greek I read bible in 4 different languages, nowhere does it say gentiles grated back again. Do you even know the reason behind why Paul wrote letter to Romans? I'm assuming no..Paul is saying, jews were cut off because of unbelief, but they will be grafted back again one day..but a warning to gentiles to not boast, just like they were grated in, same way they will be cut off.. id suggest you to pay close attention to Revelation 22, if you continue spreading false statements, and if your name is written in the book of life, you will be removed..you will have no share in the tree of life

[@aposkaris2993]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/f6PMdGipnt57nZo Romans 9 explained

[@reaganspencer8235]

@@outofthisworld8037great explanation but just because he may not understand, doesn’t mean he won’t be with Jesus because of that. Very concerning statement from you

[@bluebird6499]

Isn't it interesting what just believing what the word says can stop all these various doctrines? Romans 10:17 says, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.' That is where faith comes from, hearing the word of God, not by a special act of God to certain people to regenerate them so they can have faith. Every verse under study must be in harmony with this verse to understand the meaning. When we search for verses that "prove" our point and put a lot of them together, we do this to support a man's doctrine, e.g. Calvin's doctrine. Just go with the clear teaching. Calvin's teaching on regeneration is an interpretation. 2 Peter 1:20 "knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation," Let's get real about respecting God and what He says!

[@joshpeterson2451]

What on earth do you do with Ephesians 2:8-9 and Philippians 1:29, which say faith is a gift granted by God? Faith in Christ is not something anyone is capable of until God grants it. Anything else is Pelagian heresy.

[@a-aron6724]

@KTTGHMTJWYCBLAC he never stated that God had nothing to do with your faith or anyone's faith. He did quote the Bible though. The only way to prove true faith is by fruit. We can't know anyone's fruit by comments they make on a KZbin video. True faith produces works. Which are the fruits mentioned in Galatians. If you aren't producing fruit you've messed up somewhere along the line and you need to go back to your first works of faith.

[@JLeppert]

It's amazing how Calvinists come here to troll.

[@m1tanker64]

KTTGHMTJWYCBLAC - not this Calvinist. Generalizing like that does not aid fellowship. What did he mean by the comment “not eternally secure until securely in eternity?”

[@a-aron6724]

@@m1tanker64 he meant that we aren't permanently fixed into salvation until we're dead essentially

[@Over-for-now]

God KNOWS that NONE seek after HIM. HE will do ALL that HE ordained. He will NOT share HIS GLORY with you or me

[@j.milesyasharahla1381]

Paul is an Israelite from the tribe of Benjamin not a Roman & those gentiles were Hellenised Israelites

[@PaDutchRunner]

Romans is difficult…if you’re trying to avoid the natural reading of it.

[@kevinwells7080]

Many Calvinists believe not only that one’s post-conversion behavior doesn’t matter, but also that God directly causes all of it, including sin. For the consistent Calvinist, the tortuous effort to avoid a “man-centered” faith results in humans being mere marionettes for God’s entertainment.

[@billyr9162]

No one believes that. No preacher stands in the pulpit and says what you do doesn't matter.

[@patrickbarnes9874]

I thought the Bible said we are saved by faith. This guy clearly said we are saved by behavior. Something's not right.

[@PocketMarmo04]

No I dont think that he says that. Faith is a choice is it not? It entails repentance plus belief in Jesus Christ. These two things are a CHOICE that you make. Consequently there is no predestination, which entails no choices whatsoever, God makes all of the choices, and you are just along for the ride. You may believe in Jesus Christ with predestination, but you can not even pinpoint when that happened in your life, or where you learned about the gospel. It's a stupid concept.

[@anthonywhitney634]

Faith is a choice we make, so correlates with behaviour.

[@dervzfew9255]

Better read James 2:26 then jump to Galatian 5:22-23. Our behavior is referring to the fruit of Spirit.

[@maymyheartpray]

Another witness is Chosen...keep trusting God and making Right Choices. Israel is CHOSEN

[@brb1050]

Paul warns that disbelief, lack of faith is why the Israelites were not allowed to enter the promised land, and he warns that we should be concerned over such a fate if we fall into disbelief/ lack of faith. Faith in God shows thru our actions. We cannot continue willfully in sin and expect to be a part of the kingdom of God (Hebrews, 1 John 1).

[@randym.7238]

The reason people hate Reformed Doctrine (Calvinism) is because they would have to admit that God does what He wants, not what they want. Truth is that God has never rejected anyone who wants to be Saved. He's never Saved anyone who didn't want to be Saved.

[@michaelhochstetler2006]

Well, what they want is for everyone to have a chance to be saved. Are they more loving than God? Not knocking your view, but you really don't have the right to make assumptions about the motives other people have for their views. And I would say the same if someone tried to make judgments about why Calvinists believe what they do.

[@jamesbertram7925]

Romans Chapter Nine jhhb 1 Romans chapter nine is now a sacred shrine For in it Calvinism is deified in time The key to predestinations treasure Sovereign power without measure 2 Twin baby boys in their mother’s womb One for eternal glory, and one for doom Innocent and guiltless of any crime Elected by omnipotence divine 3 All before they had done evil or good Simply the result of arbitrary mood Justice is foreign to despotic power Inexorable majesty in flower 4 Innocent and guiltless of any crime Their destiny decreed before time Esau is hated, by His God we read Without committing a single deed 6 All this is a travesty of the text For sovereign grace a pretext The Esau of Malachi is a nation And not Rebecca’s generation 7 All Esau ‘s mountains are there laid low Because of the pride of heart they know As we read in the prophet Obadiah God hates the proud, in King Uzziah 8 Context is the key to comprehension Israel after the flesh a crucial mention In spite of their adoption as God sons They are not today God’s chosen ones 9 Paul illustrates this in various ways Through Abraham in His early days His first born Ishmael is cast away Israel, God’s first born son today 10 I refer to Exodus four and twenty two To prove that what I quote is true Israel, Jacob, God’s Firstborn Son Redeemed by blood, the beloved one 11 Baptised unto Moses in the Red Sea God’s sanctified people now we see All eating God’s spiritual food and drink Not merely carnal as some seem to think 12 But after Moses received the Law in stone The God of Abraham they deny, disown Worshipping below a calf of solid gold Idolatry in heart, they now unfold 13 And so God swore on an oath to slay All those who take a rebellions way Not one guilty soul will ever enter in Spurning sovereign Grace to sin 14 Isaiah chapter 1, is the canvas for our scene When Israel as God’s children have been But again rebellious after all His Grace He decides to destroy them without a trace 15 Like Sodom and Gomorrah, desolate Destroy the seed of Jacob in righteous hate But God in sovereign mercy spares a few Faithful to His oath to Abraham, true 16 This is the remnant of Romans chapter nine Those who God has mercy on, at this time But this mercy, is for all those who call Because God’s mercy, is available to all 17 But God has a remnant of Israel today Who have not stumbled over the way They wanted a warrior their wars to win And crucified their sacrifice for their sin 18 But those who by the Holy Spirit see Their Christ they crucified upon a tree Emmanuel, their Jesus who came to save When on that rugged cross His life He gave 19 This has nothing to do with Gentile nations Brought by promise into God’s new creation Blessed in Christ, who offers them salvation God’s pardon promised in propitiation 20 Gentiles who have not followed God’s law Are now saved by what the prophets saw Simple faith in Abraham’s promised Son The Lamb of God, God’s sacrificial One 21 But Jacobs seed who boast they can attain To a righteousness by which they can obtain Eternal life , for their righteous behaviour Sightless to the fact that they need a Saviour 22 And so we end with a Gospel whosoever Which cannot mean condemned forever When Paul prays that all Israel might be saved His might, means it is possible, to be saved

[@jonathanfischer5292]

Dude - that is awesome! Great theology & exegesis put into rhyme and meter - Charles Wesley would be proud! ;-)

[@aposkaris2993]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/f6PMdGipnt57nZo Romans 9 explained

[@stevegonzalez8324]

You are not eternally secure until you are securely in eternity? Behavior determines ongoing salvation? That's works pure and simple. Either we are saved by grace or not. Paul told the Galatians that they didn't get saved by works and they don't stay saved by works. It was by faith through grace alone. Process of sanctification doesn't even begin until you are saved. He who begins a good work in you will complete it.

[@jenex5608]

You can fall From grace

[@matthewpohlman]

@@jenex5608 That does not mean you lose salvation.

[@jenex5608]

@@matthewpohlman it does. Cause salvation is grounded and founded in God's grace. When God removes his salvific grace from you, you are no longer in right standing

[@matthewpohlman]

@@jenex5608 Salvation is a free gift. It is not earned, therefore it cannot be removed. If your works are part of the equation, then Jesus died in vain.

[@jenex5608]

@@matthewpohlman your logic is absurd. If someone give u a gift, you have the option, and will to throw away the gift, or forfeit it. Yes salvation is a free gift, we don't earn it by works. Faith is the instrument of receiving salvation. Faith is Not a work (romans 4:4-5). The Bible is clear on the possibility of apostasy.

[@willtesla]

I agree with most of what he says but does putting Dr. in front of his name automatically make him an expert?

[@roonski2048]

Yes, he's a "Professor of New Testament Interpretation at Asbury Theological Seminary" and he's written over 60 books. He's about as "expert" on New Testament studies as you'll get.

[@user-uo3pb3rr4f]

the many men trying to explain away the meaning of this passage is humorous and tragic. folks, please read matthew henry, john owen, john calvin, martin luther, and other honest theologians. regenerate people ought to have no use for false teachers, such as this guy.

[@Kevin-pe1kj]

Humbly sir, I recommend not using the saying "re-nigged" it is considered highly offensive to most people.

[@leonelmesc6670]

Reneged

[@InfoNathan]

Reneged is short for renegotiated. It should not be in offensive term unless someone is just trying to find ways to be offended.

[@MateoManolo-sl6xp]

One thing these false teachers can never do is walk you verse by verse through Romans 9..... what a butchery of the text this guy just displayed

[@Cpthilton]

Israel was redeemed at His first coming, not His second coming. If Jesus didn't redeem Israel during his first coming then He did not fulfill all that was written of Him and therefore it could be said that He wasn't the true Messiah BUT He DID fulfill everything, including the redemption of Israel, now it's your job to figure out how this was accomplished.

[@KingjamesAV1611]

....Not at all. Jesus presented Himself as the messiah to Israel and they rejected Him. Now its the church age, then God will deal with Israel again.

[@ozwall2670]

‼️ "CLAIMING TO BE WISE, THEY BECAME FOOLS" ‼️

[@williampayne]

I love Ben. However, this video is unconvincing, employs ad hominem characterizations, lacks substance, and sounds arrogant. Instead of insulting those who hold to a two-part second coming of Jesus (it’s lay theology, it’s dispensational, the NT doesn’t teach it, and other churches don’t believe it), say what you believe about the second coming. Then say why you disagree with a two-part second-coming theology.

[@validationboy]

Jesus was not a Jew. The Jews were never God's children. Time to read your ACTUAL Bible

[@bellie888]

Yes, we don't need Jesus any more because god predetermined who will be saved and who will go to hell already. I don't think so!

[@Yaas_ok123]

We do need, because place for salvation is IN CHRIST. God offers salvation by faith in Jesus. Our life can't contradict our faith, if that is the case, it is time for process of repentance and healing.

[@waynehinton2782]

You cannot co-mingle God's physical people with his spiritual people. The elect are not corporate but come to faith one person at a time after they have been regenerated by God's power and given a new heart. Men do not believe and get a new heart, they get a new heart and then believe.

[@ayekaye8055]

Wayne Hinton wrong. The Bible does not teach anywhere, not once, that regeneration precedes faith.

[@waynehinton2782]

@@ayekaye8055 John 3:3, Eph. 2:4-5, Rom. 8:29-30 all show that God must quicken a person before he can come to faith or as Jesus says even see the kingdom of God. If a person can come to faith without a change of heart, then what does regeneration accomplish... nothing it would not be needed. Does it make sense that God waits for a person to come to sincere faith and then send the Holy Spirit to change his heart? There are certainly no passages that state regeneration comes after faith!

[@ayekaye8055]

Wayne Hinton wrong again. The gospel is the message by which God calls people. That call can be rejected. “These things are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” ‭‭John‬ ‭20:31‬ ‭ESV‬‬

[@waynehinton2782]

@@ayekaye8055 Yes the external call goes out to all people, but unless God changes a person they will reject it. The passage you give is silent on this point just as John 3:16 is silent on whether man can come to faith unaided by the Holy Spirit. There is an outward call like the verse you give, but also an effectual call that the Holy Spirit gives to the elect. Such passages as John 6:37, 44, 65; Eph. 1:3-6, Rom. 9, John 1:12-13 and the other passages I have already given you. Your mistake is assuming that unregnerate man can respond to the external call without God's grace.

[@evanu6579]

Wayne Hinton Regeneration happens after faith.... Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) All that believed would receive the Spirit after Jesus’ resurrection and ascension.... Jhn 14: 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Jhn 15: 26 ¶ But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: Jhn 16: 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. The Holy Spirit is first given here.... Jhn 20: 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: So they didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until after the resurrection as Jesus stated in John 7. That’s well after the disciples believed, and many others as well...... Jhn 2: 23 ¶ Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. Luk 7: 50 ¶ And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. Even after the resurrection, faith still preceded regeneration..... Eph 1: 13 ¶ In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Just to clarify what regeneration is. It is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.... Rom 8: 9 ¶ But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Spiritual life happens after belief..... Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. The disciples hadn’t received this life before the resurrection of Christ..... Jhn 14:19 ¶ Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. Peter hadn’t yet been converted..... Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. (Matt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.) Could the disciples see the kingdom before the Holy Spirit was given?..... Jhn 3: 3 ¶ Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Acts 1: 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? (Luk 17: 20 ¶ And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.) No. Not until Pentecost..... Acts 2: 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 ¶ For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 ¶ Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now they can see

[@user-uo3pb3rr4f]

sadly, this man is misled and misleading others. the blind will ever lead the blind.

[@toddstevens9667]

Very Methodist interpretation! And really very bad. I think this is probably the worse interpretation I’ve ever heard … and I’ve been reading about these chapters for decades. I think it would be better to just stick to the text itself.

[@eltonron1558]

Ben, why dost thou wear a graven image? Are thou also a Sunday keeper? If so, thyne credibility, and reward small, while some of your opinion is sound.

[@peteadriansadiasa369]

"Those whom He forknew, He also predestined." Romans 8:29 You like the forknew but dont like the predestined because you say that salvation is only by grace through faith yet say that behavior matters in securing our salvation. That is pure selectivity of Scripture. Believe in Sola Scriptura, believe also in Tota Scriptura.

[@johngraves5444]

Poor exegesis. This is why we need expository preaching. Anyone can see the plain meaning of the text is in support of Calvinistic theology. 1. Election and salvation are the same. Look at passages that clearly refer to the elect. Paul and Peter refer to the body of believers. The term is never used to refer to refer to the nation of Israel. Reading the entirety of Romans 9 is clear that God created some intentionally as vessels of wrath. 2. Calvinists do not claim God to the author of sin. Clearly laid out in Lorraine Boettner's Reformed Doctrine of Predestination. God does however use sin to bring about His ultimate means and bring glory Himself.

[@DanielWesleyKCK]

+John Graves You have to account for genre when exegeting Romans as a whole, not to mention chapters 9-11. Paul masterfully mixes Greek rhetoric with Jewish midrash to make his points - we have to understand how these genres work... you can't simply rely on a grammatical analysis. In context, the "plain" meaning is not quite so obvious and if you don't account for genre, your reading will be naive. Also, Paul does not share a clear, synonymous reading of "election" and "salvation". Romans 11:28-29 spells this out - unbelieving Jews are simultaneously "enemies of the gospel" yet still "elect". The Calvinist reading of Romans 9 is in no way a slam dunk.

[@Manatti06]

@@DanielWesleyKCK Romans 9 is a challenging passage for sure. It surely doesn't dispel Calvin theology I would say. Passages such as John 17:9, John 10:15 and Eph 5:25 (to name a few) make strong cases for it.

[@michaelhochstetler2006]

Can the words 'elect' or 'election' be used in different ways in different passages? As to God being the author of sin, is there a distinction between what the Reformed *teach* and the *implications* of what they teach?

[@amonesotera9238]

If you say Romans 9:11 Predestination is inaccurate, where humans DO have free will, then you're saying your god infact doesn't know all things before they happen, correct ? Is your god all knowing or not ? If he is, then surely he knew your predestination, correct or not ?