Does Romans 7 Teach that Christians Will Continue Sinning? (Ben Witherington)

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Some point to Romans 7 as the proof-text for the saint-sinner paradox, suggesting that if even the apostle Paul struggled with his unrelenting flesh, Christians must face defeat in certain areas of their Christian life as well.
On the contrary, Ben Witherington reveals that the ancient context illuminates the text in a way that eliminates Paul as the subject of this passage and paints a more optimistic picture of God's sanctifying grace.
// Study the Letter to the Romans with Ben Witherington: my.seedbed.com/product/the-le...

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[@messengerisrael3817]

Seedbed , we all make errors , because we fail to understand that Moses and Jesus Christ are the key , to what is happening at the time just after Jesus resurrection . Moses and Jesus are the mediators of the covenant between the Father and the covenant people ( Israel ) . There were certain responsibilities under the ministration of Moses , and under the ministration of Jesus Christ . Moses was the Israelite husband/protection at the time of Mount Sinai up to being replaced by the mediator Jesus , when he appeared and was accepted before the Father in heaven on the morrow after the sabbath for our sins ( Hebrews 9:22-24 ) . Moses protection was of flesh/works - The law of animal sacrifice for the body , not the heart ; which means that , you became a transgressor when you violated the law of God . The law of animal sacrifice was to keep God from destroying your body , not to forgive your sins , but what is the final outcome if you do not repent by faith ? You die in your sins . The law of animal sacrifice was under the mediator Moses , through the Leviticus priesthood . This law was given to the Israelites because they were breaking the laws of God without repenting by faith . Romans 5:13 explains how the law of animal sacrifice affect the sins you commit against God ( Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world : but sin is not imputed when there is no law ) . Before the God of Israel gave the Israelites the law of animal sacrifice for sin , grace by faith was always available ( Abraham , Joseph brothers ) ; even after the law of animal sacrifice ( King David ) . The children of Israel did not want to serve God by faith ; so he gave them statutes and judgments ( law of animal sacrifice ) that was not good , whereby they should not live ( Ezekiel 20:23-25 ) . That is why King David said this : ( Psalm 32:1-6 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven , whose sin is covered . Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity , and in whose spirit there is no guile . When I kept silence , my bones waxed old .............. ) . In Romans 7 , the Israelites were under their husband Moses , through the law of animal sacrifice , under the sins of the law of God . As long as they were under the sins of God , Moses , through the law of animal sacrifice was their husband . Even when they followed all the requirements through the law of animal sacrifice , it could not forgive the sin , but the sins became greater and greater as you sinned against the law of God because it was not of faith , but works ( Hebrews 10:1-4 and Romans 3:19-20 ) . Because it was an unrighteous man that committed the sin , it required a righteous man to take the sin away ( Jesus Christ ) . When Jesus died for our sins , all baptized under his blood is free our their sins , if they repent by faith ( Ephesians 2:8 For by grace ( free gift - blood ) are ye saved ( forgiven ) through faith ( So then faith cometh by hearing , and hearing by the word of God ) ; and that not of yourselves : it is the gift of God ) . The law of God is forgiven , and you are no longer bound to your first husband ( Moses - through the law of animal sacrifice ) , but you can be married to your new husband ( Jesus Christ - through grace and faith ) . Once you fall under the law of animal sacrifice , your sins become greater and greater as you sin , even if you complete all the sacrifices and oblations for the sins they have violated ; that is why Paul said that the commandments that was ordained to life , I found to be unto death . In Romans 7:22-25 ; Paul is delighted in the law of God after the inward man ( Serving God by faith , through repentance , under the new husband Jesus Christ ) , but he see another law in his flesh , warring against the law of the mind , and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members ( law of animal sacrifice - law of works/flesh ) . In the end , Paul said that he serve the law of God by faith through the LORD Jesus Christ , but with the flesh/body , the law of sin . The Israelites were still using the law of animal sacrifice for the purpose of cleaning the flesh from being unclean , but stated that the Gentiles would not go through the law of animal sacrifice for cleaning the flesh from being unclean ( 1st Corinthians 7:18-23 , Galatians 2:11-23 , Romans 2:25-29 , Acts 21:17-29 , Acts 15:24 ) . Paul circumcised Timotheus with the law of animal sacrifice and oblations , when he took him into their synagogue , because his father was a Greek , and he being a Gentile , was never cleaned by the law of law of animal sacrifice and oblation for the cleaning of the body ; so ever thing Timothy touch , it would be deem unclean . Paul would not circumcise Titus later in Jerusalem , because it was agreed that Gentiles would not go through the law of animal sacrifice . Shalom !

[@starglowpiano7701]

Paul was not specifically describing his life prior to being a Christian, he is simply describing the life of a person who is trying to please God under the old covenant law system, whether Christian or not. It is impossible to live the Christian life under a regime of self-effort and works. The only way to live the Christian life is through the regimen of the spirit, through faith in the finished work of Christ. That is why Paul exhorts us to live as people who have been set free from the law and not to submit again to the yoke of slavery (Galatians 5:1).

[@leonardu6094]

That's an interesting perspective. Is there an article, video or something I can read to learn more about your particular point of view?

[@Greg8098]

Amen!

[@allenmorgan4309]

In Romans 7 Paul is speaking rhetorically for us all, the human condition, or the Christian that is wrestling with sin. We will always struggle with sin. If anyone thinks they somehow don't have sin then they are deluded. Im 55 years old and I've never met a sinless person yet. We are considered righteous in Christ but in and of ourselves we aren't sinless at all and thats what Paul is describing.

[@destroyingtheworksofthedev9349]

You are the only person who gets it, I can't even believe this guy thinks his flesh is good!

[@drummerboy69n]

I can show you a "teacher" who claims to be just that.

[@Merih98614]

Can you please show who that teacher is? Thanks.

[@drummerboy69n]

@@Merih98614 Mike Rutkowski 3 months ago He is a false prophet. Are you a child of God or are you a sinner since it is impossible to be both? If you can get sick then you are definitely a sinner and I can certainly prove what I am relating in scripture. First understand that I am a sanctified disciple of Jesus Christ and I have overcome both sin and sickness in this life. That’s right, I am definitely stating that I cannot sin and that I can never get sick and you had better think twice before you try to disprove what I am about to relate since you may be condemning your soul in the process. If you somehow believe that you are a child of God but yet you possess sin and sickness in your life then try and prove it to me with scripture since I know that I can certainly prove that you are wrong and I can also prove that you do not know God at all. I can also prove that if you possess sin and sickness in your life then there is a very good chance that you are heading for an eternity in hell. So if you foolishly believe otherwise then once again try and prove it with scripture. I have had many foolish believers attacking me because I relate that I am a disciple of Jesus Christ who is sanctified in truth and that I have overcome sin and sickness in my life. Many of them just will not accept the truth that I can no longer sin nor can I ever get sick in this here life. I have related over and over how it is sin that allows the devil to destroy our lives with his sickness and disease and that if you possess sin then you certainly do not know God or scripture. Many believers will try to tell me that I am wrong and that what I relate is impossible because Jesus was the only sinless person. They mainly try to refute my wisdom simply because they are trying to justify the sin and the sickness that they possess in their own lives. So if you believe that I am wrong in my knowledge of God and scripture and you believe that you are correct then prove your misguided beliefs with scripture. Prove to me how you could possibly be a child of God and yet have sin and sickness in your life! Give me just one scripture verse where God instructed you to live in sin or where God stated that you will always sin. Give me one verse of scripture where God stated that a child of God will have sickness in their life or where sickness is a natural part of this life? I can certainly back up everything that I relate in scripture since I know that scripture relates how a child of God does not let sin reign in their body, he does not sin, they do not sin, he has died to sin, he has ceased from sin, and he cannot sin. All of these terms are used when describing a believer who is a child of Christ but yet most who claim to be a follower of Christ believe that they can never stop sinning and that they will always sin. So here are the scriptures that back up what I know and what I am relating. “Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬ “We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.” ‭‭I John‬ ‭5:18‬ ‭NKJV “Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.” ‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭15:34‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

[@drummerboy69n]

There is a lot more from this Mike Rutkowski. That was just a little taste

[@blackswanrevelations]

Finally someone that gets it. Thank you for sharing. I’ve only recently thought wait Paul seems to have figured out away not to sin anymore. That is revolutionary. Many Christian’s think we are powerless against sin. When Paul spells out exactly how to stop sinning. Anyway. Thanks for sharing.

[@shabazmoliki521]

Paul says that he is the chief of sinners

[@aka_the-worst9111]

Before he was a Christian

[@tabasco7915]

@@aka_the-worst9111 You don't know that,

[@terrydonegan1622]

@@tabasco7915 Romans 5 it says God loved us 'while we WERE' yet sinners

[@tabasco7915]

@@terrydonegan1622 Yes Terry, this is true.

[@slamfire6005]

I wish scripture was easy to interpret… would make things so much easier.

[@debbiekling6065]

Romans 8 :10 kjv

[@jaybird8142]

When someone says there’s 7 different interpretations or even less of a passage. We need to stick as close to the scripture (text) as we can. Don’t take liberties with words, symbols or metaphors that are not there. Every time we do that a new denomination is born.

[@JoshuaHults]

This was EXCELLENT thank you

[@ChristopherSmith-Art]

Paul is explaining that his flesh has carnal passionate desires that he must resist. His flesh wants to do what he doesn’t want to do. “For I know that nothing good dwells in me, THAT IS, IN MY FLESH. For I have the desire to do what is right…” (Romans 7:18) He is clearly explaining that when he refers to himself, he is referring to his flesh and to his spirit which are conflicting with each other. And taking a look at the context of the passage, he is not preaching that we cannot overcome the flesh, only he is saying that the flesh has evil passionate desires that he must fight against

[@Mike65809]

Romans 7 is simply Paul saying that the Law was not sufficient to bring righteousness in him, but in fact, made it more illusive, as sin became utterly sinful. Only Christ does the "law of life in Christ set you free from the law of sin and death." His use of present tense verbs was only to illustrate the battle he had under the Law.

[@lawrence1318]

The analysis is incorrect as at v17 Paul says: "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me". That is, Paul is explicating the vital dichotomy of old man vs New Man which exists in the Christian. There is a non-believer in every Christian, which is why we are elsewhere told that "if we believe not, yet He abideth faithful, for He cannot deny Himself" (2 Ti 2:13).

[@frankmerendino1855]

While I agree with Dr. Witherington's equation of the rhetorical I in Romans 7 with Adam, I feel that he leaves out the entire dimension of Israel, under the Torah/Law, as being in Adam. Paul is driving this home in this chapter, he speaks to those who know the Law; he describes the hopelessly divided human condition in reference to the Law, not just to Adam, or humanity in general. This is the bitter irony that Paul is pointing out, the Law actually exacerbated the Adamic plight of Israel, providing no solution. His description of the divided and powerless will, of seeing the good but not being able to carry it out, describes the situation of those under the holy, just, and good law, who delighted in it, as faithful Israelites would have, but continually fell short of its ideals. Paul actually alludes to the Greek philosophers here, who describe the same dichotomy, of seeing the good but not being able to consistently carry it out. His point is that life under the law for Jews brought them to no better a place and condition than the best of the puzzled pagans, a futile and defeated pursuit of an ideal that can't be lived out with any consistency. The solution he arrives at and presents is the death and resurrection of Christ that pronounces no condemnation for those who join with him by faith, and the reception of the powerful and energizing Spirit, who transforms them into the very image of God, and fulfills in them, individually and in their community, the just requirements of the Law/Torah (which he later defines as self giving love), for those who walk in the way of the Spirit...both Jews and Gentiles.

[@gordmacgowan2137]

I agree with you that Paul is really talking about himself as a Jew, as a member of Israel before Messiah, who by living "under the law/Torah in Adam," as you say, found that the law only exacerbated the problem of trying to live righteously by defining sin and magnifying its effect upon humanity to produce sinful desires. I also believe it speaks to anyone who may unwittingly take a similar path of being under law instead of being under grace in Messiah Jesus. Perhaps this is why so many gentile Christians have identified with Paul's rhetoric here about struggling with sin, and may find comfort in his apparent perpetual defeat. They see Paul as someone like them who continuously struggled with sin, instead of seeing in his rhetoric the messianic believer as a representative of the true Israel, made up of both Jew and Gentile, who comes through that struggle and emerges in righteousness through the life of the Spirit. Not that anyone has achieved sinless perfection, but true life through the righteousness of God born of the Spirit is superior to failed attempts at righteousness under the law that only lead to death. The difference between these two basic interpretations is that those who see Paul as struggling and not overcoming do not have the hope of overcoming themselves, whereas those who see him as overcoming see hope in their own ability to grow in righteousness in the Spirit. The former accommodate death, while the latter pursue life with passion and vigour. Is not Paul's point that Messiah Jesus has changed everything through His resurrection so that now, the same Spirit that raised Messiah from the dead, can quicken our mortal bodies and produce true righteousness and life? And that this life is the early onset of the new creation itself, which will culminate in our bodily resurrection and the new heaven and earth?

[@drummerboy69n]

@@gordmacgowan2137 I can show you a "teacher" who claims to be sinless and disease free and says if you aren't, then your salvation is nullified.

[@drummerboy69n]

@@gordmacgowan2137 From Mike Rutkowski a teacher of sinless perfection - Are you a child of God or are you a sinner since it is impossible to be both? If you can get sick then you are definitely a sinner and I can certainly prove what I am relating in scripture. First understand that I am a sanctified disciple of Jesus Christ and I have overcome both sin and sickness in this life. That’s right, I am definitely stating that I cannot sin and that I can never get sick and you had better think twice before you try to disprove what I am about to relate since you may be condemning your soul in the process. If you somehow believe that you are a child of God but yet you possess sin and sickness in your life then try and prove it to me with scripture since I know that I can certainly prove that you are wrong and I can also prove that you do not know God at all. I can also prove that if you possess sin and sickness in your life then there is a very good chance that you are heading for an eternity in hell. So if you foolishly believe otherwise then once again try and prove it with scripture. I have had many foolish believers attacking me because I relate that I am a disciple of Jesus Christ who is sanctified in truth and that I have overcome sin and sickness in my life. Many of them just will not accept the truth that I can no longer sin nor can I ever get sick in this here life. I have related over and over how it is sin that allows the devil to destroy our lives with his sickness and disease and that if you possess sin then you certainly do not know God or scripture. Many believers will try to tell me that I am wrong and that what I relate is impossible because Jesus was the only sinless person. They mainly try to refute my wisdom simply because they are trying to justify the sin and the sickness that they possess in their own lives. So if you believe that I am wrong in my knowledge of God and scripture and you believe that you are correct then prove your misguided beliefs with scripture. Prove to me how you could possibly be a child of God and yet have sin and sickness in your life! Give me just one scripture verse where God instructed you to live in sin or where God stated that you will always sin. Give me one verse of scripture where God stated that a child of God will have sickness in their life or where sickness is a natural part of this life?

[@gordmacgowan2137]

@@drummerboy69n 1John 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

[@stephenbarnigham5192]

Sin IS the Human condition! Sin IS what we ARE! NOT what we do or do NOT DO! Transgression of the Law IS an inevitable consequence of the fallen human condition! 1John 3:9.states that a person who has been born-again by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can NOT sin because of the Holy Spirit! Although we sin every single day either in thought or word,if NOT in deed,those sins are NOT credited to the believers account because Jesus Christ has taken upon himself the wrath of a Holy God FOR those sins! We are NO LONGER children of Adam (sin) but children of God! God bless you!

[@cjrideson]

Thank you sir.

[@debbiekling6065]

If we no longer sin then why does God tell us in the model prayer, to ask forgiveness for our trespasses ???

[@noybiznatch]

IF we sin, we have an advocate with the Father... not WHEN we sin. This doesn't mean will NEVER sin either. This does imply that we don't HAVE to sin every single minute, hour, or day.

[@phillyvocalist]

The rhetorical methodology hinges on Rom. 5:13, which was misquoted. Sin is spoken about, objectively. Paul did not say “I existed before the law.” Sin did.

[@Mike65809]

Romans 7 is simply Paul saying that the Law was not sufficient to bring righteousness in him, but in fact, made it more illusive, as sin became utterly sinful. Only Christ does the "law of life in Christ set you free from the law of sin and death." His use of present tense verbs was only to illustrate the battle he had under the Law.

[@josremery]

This series is soooo helpful. Thank you for posting.

[@Theolife]

Where can I get a copy of that dissertation on Adamic imagery?

[@1156511]

Patrick Stitt Per "manonfire117" gradworks.umi.com/35/37/3537129.html

[@Cpthilton]

Understand that you are a spirit AND you have a flesh. The flesh and the spirit are contrary one to the other. Know this and you will understand how you can be a sinner (your flesh) and still be sinless (your spirit) seemingly at the same time. Your flesh is death but your spirit is life.

[@regimjosegospelofgrace5307]

Very poor understanding of Romans 7! The flesh in Romans 7 seems to be perpetually defeating the "I" of Roman 7! He is the slave of his fleshy nature, sold under sin! Does it describe you as a Christian? Are you under the bondage of sin? Then you haven't understood the gospel. Romans 6 states, "sin shall not have dominion over you" about a Christian. It also states, "though, once you(the Christian) were slaves of sin, but now you have been freed from sin by the doctrines taught to you, and became slave to righteousness!" This is a Christian! The man in Roman 7 is a devout Jew, depending on the law to seek freedom from flesh! In other words, Paul has devoted the entire chapter to defend the Law one one hand, and why is it not compatible to flesh! If Romans 7 is the normative Christian experience, all Christians should go to hell. Because they are slaves sold under the sin. This in fact is the most widespread heresy, justifying carnality in Christians. Christian life is portrayed in Romans 8, life in the Spirit. Do you think Paul was really the chief of sinners at the time he wrote1Timothy? No...proceeding verses shows it was his former experience. Kindly read Bible carefully.

[@destroyingtheworksofthedev9349]

@@regimjosegospelofgrace5307 So you never sin?

[@drummerboy69n]

@@regimjosegospelofgrace5307 So you believe that we are commanded to be sinlessly perfect in this earthly life??

[@gregory7320]

​@@drummerboy69ndo you sin?

[@drummerboy69n]

@@gregory7320 Less frequently. It is a process of sanctification. The sinless perfectionists believe that it is instantaneous, for if it is a process , then we are sinning by resisting the Holy Spirit ( according to them ).

[@josephbachota]

Amen, this is not a Christian passage but a person under the law who knows how to do good but can't do it, We have been set free from sin and death in Christ, So romans 8 is our passages! Amen!

[@robmarshall956]

But you are not sinless.

[@josephbachota]

@@robmarshall956 correct, never said we arnt, but we are still the righteousness of God in spite of that, so the question is which one do we focus more on? Our sinfulness or our Righteousness in Christ? I chose to focus in our righteousness in Christ which compels me and empowers me to do better, thanks

[@robmarshall956]

@@josephbachota the way I see it is we are done with sin but we still sin as we can’t be rid of our sin nature until we die in the flesh. So legally we are justified (made righteous in Christ) at our rebirth, that’s immediate and it is a legal declaration of our status as Children of God and heirs of Christ. Secondly we have a moral death (sanctification) which is a ongoing death and representation of a believers victory over the flesh Roman’s 7:24-25, the world 1john 5:4 and the devil James 4:7. So I died to sin in Christ once but I also die to self (my like Christness) daily wherein I realise I still sin and repent of this as 1 john 3:1-10 speaks too as I won’t ever be perfect this side of heaven and will always have this struggle.

[@danielclout5448]

Great insight, I liked the presenters style too.

[@jamesmiller393]

I didn't find this explanation convincing. The key to Dr Witherington's argument is the idea that the same Paul cannot be speaking of himself as a Christian in Romans 7 because he says he was "blameless" in Philippians 3, but that does not take into account that in Philippians 3 Paul is talking about his attitude to the law at the time he was a pharisee and a persecutor of the church, i.e. before he met the risen Christ. He considered himself blameless then. As a Christian, he later called himself the chief of sinners, and with that Christian point of view, Romans 7 can be - and I think is - about Paul describing the struggle of the normal Christian life. There is absolutely nothing in the text indicating when Paul starts speaking as another character or reverts to speaking as himself. I have to say I think that is reading a lot into the text for pre-existing theological reasons. How would the Romans hearing this letter read out possibly know Paul was suddenly speaking as Adam? I just don't see it.

[@frankmerendino1855]

The Romans hearing the letter would have understood the rhetorical conventions of the day, which were outlined in this presentation.

[@danieltober8574]

i agree. when paul says he was alive until he knew the law, i think that means either when he was young and just didn’t know the law, or more likely when he was a pharisee and thought he was doing good but then met Jesus and learned that he was wrong. in his mind he was alive, but the law showed him his sin. i don’t see any indication that he’s talking about anyone else, especially since in other letters by paul he will indicate or outright say when he’s speaking out of character

[@1oxyoke]

If you can't see it you are ignoring a lot, namely, the context and grammatical construction. In chapter 7 he is describing life under the law. In chapter 8 he is describing life under grace. Pretty simple and straight forward if you ask me.

[@jlopez47]

That Paul thought himself blameless “touching the law”, is exactly what he means when he says that “sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me” in verse 11. We had our hearts hardened by “the deceitfulness of sin” Hebrews 3:13, believing we were ok with God, as Paul did as a Pharisee.

[@kevinwells7080]

They would know it the same way you do when you hear anyone who is doing impersonation. Change of voice and aspect for dramatic effect (ever seen a child imitate a teacher)? I reacted the same way when reading witherington’s commentary on Romans. I sure hated to lose my excuse for living in continual sin, as the passage is frequently twisted. Anyway, read Witherington’s commentary if you want all the evidence. this is an ancient interpretation. the point is not that the commonplace interpretation contradicts Paul’s resume as a pharisee, but that it contradicts everything else Paul wrote about the nature of the Spirit-filled believer. Paul put himself forward as an exemplar of the victorious Christian. If Romans 7 was his experience, then He himself was habitually and continually carnal, and had no right to teach anyone, much less claim authority over all gentile believers.

[@AJTramberg]

Outstanding

[@student207]

There are many christians who have read this as autobiographical of Paul , not just Paul's past but also present , at the time. Paul says as a christian he is carnal, not necessarily totally depraved but still falling short of god. He is not perfect, he doesnt do what he wishes (not always obeying god) again Paul says 1 Tim 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-of whom I AM the worst. rom 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. Paul seems to say he has 2- wills , minds, desires. repentance is a change of mind but you cant change your flesh body's will (it is no longer me sinning but sin in my body, not that the body is evil...). christians are between tensions, unbelievers are not between the tension of wanting to obey god or even his law at all... who will deliver me? -rom 8

[@debbiekling6065]

Thank you

[@roeadam]

I am puzzled by the line of reasoning that Romans 7 deals exclusively with the pre-conversion person. We are a new creation, but I've yet to meet the Christian who no longer feels the difficulties of the flesh. In addition, I'm unsure why Luther is so often made the Wesleyan foil. Luther certainly observed that the struggle to live in the Spirit says something about our spiritual state. The person who feels the pangs and pulls of the flesh is not wholly holy. Even so, it was Luther who wrote the following in his commentary on Romans: "For those who live according to the flesh, in the native state, not yet born again in the Spirit through Baptism or repentance, set their minds on the things of the flesh...But those who live according to the Spirit, men who are born of the Spirit and of God to become new creatures, set their minds on the things of the Spirit, that is, on the good things that are uncreated, that are God Himself." Luther, Martin. Luther’s Works, Vol. 25: Lectures on Romans. Ed. Jaroslav Jan Pelikan, Hilton C. Oswald, & Helmut T. Lehmann. Vol. 25. Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1999. Print.

[@Daviusheart]

Adam Roe If we read Romans 7:14-25 and interpret the verses according to its context then it cannot be a Christian whatsoever. Most Evangelials/Pentecostals ,however, will say, yes, it's a Christian. I digress. Paul is impersonating a Jew under the law, not Adam, which can be but in another sub-context. Why a Jew? Well In this chapter he's talking about marriage: with the law (under the old pact)and with Christ (under the new pact). In v. 14 he is sold as a slave to sin, no christian is slave to sin; In v.18 he cannot carry out what is good within himself, because the law tells you your sin, but the Holy Spirit under the new pact empowers you to carry it out; In v. 19 he cannot stop sinning-christians have been empowered to stop sinning through Christ; In v.23 he is a prisoner to the law of sin-we have been set free from that law through Christ; and in v.25 there are two forces: one in his mind and one in his flesh. He thus obeys his flesh. He is bound. This is a prime example of how the Jews under the law lived. Because the law was the mentor until Christ appeared. And it takes us to its fulfillment in Romans 8. Romans 6 flows beautifully to chapter 7 and culminates in chapter 8. Can 7:14-24 be a Christian who struggles with sin? If we take it out of its context and use a second interpretation, then, yes. It can. We all go through it. Some more than others. The beauty of the bible is that one verse can have two or three injterpretations. We must know when is the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd is being used. But it's the second interpretation, just like we can take other verses in the Bible and use their second interpretation and it doesn't constitute heresy. The Bible is clear concerning sin. We must stop. There are exceptions, though, to the extent that we can sin every second of our lives and repent and still go to heaven, but we run the risk of hardening our hearts and committing apostasy. The struggle happens because we feed the flesh more than we feed what the spirit desires. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, said Jesus. Plus, vs.14-24 is not a free pass to sin. We sin out of weakness, not out of occupation like the heathens. I hope this helps a little.

[@virginiashroyer2279]

If Romans 7 is talking about Adam and not himself, ( Paul ) why didn’t he say so. Even if Paul isn’t referring to himself doesn’t mean he reached a point where sin wasn’t real in his life.

[@Mike65809]

Romans 7 is simply Paul saying that the Law was not sufficient to bring righteousness in him, but in fact, made it more illusive, as sin became utterly sinful. Only Christ does the "law of the spirit of life in Christ set you free from the law of sin and death." His use of present tense verbs was only to illustrate the battle he had under the Law.

[@SibleySteve]

Love Dr W but 7:21ff says that I delight in the law of God in my inmost man while my members impulsively sin, and if Paul is impersonating an unregenerate sinner pre conversion in chap 7, thats a pretty far stretch to think that Mr Sinner pre conversion delights in the law of God in his inmost being with a desire to it but just cannot make it happen in his members. This sounds more like an augustinian paradox to me.

[@larrymiller4]

John in 1 John makes a distinction between "having" sin and "committing" sin. There should be no doubt that we all "have" sin as part of our human nature -- God did not remove that when we were born again and received Christ, and that was for a very good reason: So that we would learn to overcome sin by the grace (power, help) of God. But "committing" sin means that you are knowingly, consciously sinning, and that is something that too many Christians try to excuse and explain away.

[@patriciapost962]

Thank you

[@nathanielalexander4861]

Makes sense that the holiness tradition (one can achieve sinlessness in this life) would need a scapegoat for Paul....its Adam...unfortunately, this doesnt hold water...I john 1:8 states we deceive ourselves if we say we are without sin. But more importantly, Paul is clearly speaking about himself when he mentions Christ Jesus in rom 7:14

[@georgeakoto171]

i totally disagree with Dr Ben on this... Rom 7 has nothing to do with Adam allegorically. It is a biography of Paul. Your argument from philipians is too weak. While Paul strive to be a faithful pharisee, he hated Christ and persecuted the believers. Hence, obviously even as faithful a pharisee he strived to be, he was still the chief of all sinners. There is no salvation outside Christ. We are not saved by our robust fantasy with the law. We are saved by Christ unto good works. Until Christ sets you free, you are still a slave of sin even if you swallow the whole law. This my dear no one can. For if you break just one law, you are guilty of breaking all. Jesus took the law to heart and equated lust with fornication, unrighteous anger with murder and unbelief as the unpardonable blasphemy. We can only gain victory over sin when Chridt sets us free and us we obediently and reverently gaze on him, he sanctifies us to conform into his perfect image. This is why i reject wesleyanism although i was born in methodist and a pentecostal background

[@robwagnon6578]

King James has Romans 8:1 second clause saying: those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit..this is in the TR and in the Byzantine texts and in the Anti-nicen fathers understanding of Romans 8:1. The Alexandrian took it out:(

[@tabasco7915]

But we do find it in verse 4.

[@theremnant8721]

Amen

[@NorthernGate777]

The book of Romans is a book that is hidden until someone arrives at Rome. What is Rome?

[@bobmartin6162]

Just an observation..."Paul had a perfectly robust and healthy conscience about his behavior as a pharisee". Paul was persecuting the church as a pharisee, correct? This is the same person who is "chief of sinners" isn't it?

[@bobpolo2964]

He didn't consider himself as the chief of sinners until "after" he submitted to Christ

[@michaelestrada3773]

Right, and he wouldn't have considered himself a sinner if he were never saved. It makes perfect sense that Paul, finally seeing the truth, would recognize his own sinfulness.

[@navagatingthroughthebeasts2908]

Its gets very confusing just as once saved always saved...... Alls I know is I don't want to upset my Lord Jesus Christ , I wish to please Him. Not sure of my salvation & way people who describe hell sounds like it really sucks , but I strive to serve Him outta love , if im rejected im sure its just

[@yestothetruth]

Without further knowledge of or considerations on what this minister teaches, this message here is an honest reading of Romans 7. And Once Saved Always Saved is a false teaching. I want to answer directly concerning what you have shared and I recommend you lookup this message on KZbin: _"Born Again Through Repentance And Faith"_ by Zac Poonen. You can start listening to the full message at 23:38. It will give you a good understanding of Biblical repentance. The result of it should be a permanent transformation by God's power making you a "new creation" literally (2 Corinthians 5:17). Your obedience to God out of love for God (John 14:15) is the key to your deliverance from any sin that you are bound in (Hebrews 5:9). And God's grace will help you to always overcome sin and live a new life that is pleasing to Him (Titus 2:11-14). That is the essence of being saved by grace. We are called to walk in freedom from sin (John 8:34-36, Romans 6:16-18, Romans 8:1-2), not a permanent struggle with sin. Serving God out of love is exactly the way to approach God and I encourage you to not get into a mindset of sure defeat. But many lies are in our way to serve God as He expects and I hope you will come to know the truth and to walk in it. John 8:31-32 31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in my word, you are my disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” 33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can you say, ‘You will be made free’?” 34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. Peace to you!

[@terrydonegan1622]

Romans 7 ,Paul is describing life under the law as an unregenerate man. Excellent insight sir

[@1156511]

Ro 7:7-24 is a picture of Ro 7:5: in it, we see a man "in the flesh" whose "sinful passions" are "aroused by the Law" [Ro 7:5, 7-13]. From this, we may gather that the subject is Jewish (Gentiles don't have the Law [Ro 2:14]), and that the subject isn't "in Christ" (those "in Christ" are "not in the flesh but in the Spirit"-compare Ro 7:5 and 8:9). In other words, Ro 7:7-24 depicts the condition Paul and his (now-believing) Jewish "brothers" (the kind of "brothers" who "know the Law" [Ro 7:1]) *had* (past-tense) been living in while *they* (not Adam: the context is a discussion between Jews who used to be under a Law [Ro 6:14] that forbade coveting [Ro 7:7]-a Law Adam didn't possess-so that they were "mastered by sin" [not that I endorse their spirituality, but, technically speaking, modern Jews-those who've incorporated other religions, like Kabbala, into what they erroneously suppose is service to God-might not qualify as "under the Law", but this is a different subject] which "arouses sinful passions" [Ro 7:5], wherefore it is rightly designated "the power of sin" [1 Co 15:56]) were "in the flesh". Because the Jew "in the flesh" is "taken captive" [v23] to that which those "in Christ" ("in the flesh" and "in Christ" being two mutually exclusive states of being) have "died to" and been "freed" from [7:6, 8:2] (you're either *taken captive* or *set free*), he is incapable of fulfilling the "good" [v18] "Law" [v12,13,16]; in contrast, the ones (be they Jew or Gentile) "in Christ" "fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law" [Ro 2:13-15, 3:31, 8:1-4, 13:8-10]. In fact, if I read Ep 5:5 correctly, the Ro 7:7-23 man has no inheritance in the Kingdom of God because he is covetous [Ro 7:8]! How is he a Christian again? Seen in this way, Ro 7:7-24 is a demonstration of the Law not being opposed to (in fact, working together with) the Promise [Gal 3:21]-shutting mouths from boasting [Lk 18:12; Ro 3:19, 20, 4:2] by ministering condemnation [2 Co 3:9] which crushes men, making them cry out for a Deliverer from themselves [Ro 7:24] (and finding this deliverance in the Deliverer typed by Moses-One Whose deliverance is not from *within* but from *without* [as Moses came from outside of Egypt, having never been a slave]-that is, Messiah [Ro 7:25]).

[@psalmninetytwo3594]

Indeed Daniel! You got it :-)

[@psalmninetytwo3594]

Ben you are close, but not quite. You are right that Rom 7 is an impersonation, but it's not quite Adam that Paul is recapitulating, although he's in the picture. It's Israel... Why? b/c of the key to the entire chap in v 1: "for I speak to those who know the Law". We gentiles should sing that Carly Simon song "You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you" when we do our exegesis, not everything Paul writes is directed to us! Adam didn't know the law. That explains the past to present tense shift from vv. 7-13 to 14-25. Israel was once alive apart from the Law (v 9), but when the Law was given, she went from being declared righteous/alive ( think Abraham in whom Adam is present) to dead again, when she tried to be justified by the Law. The struggle of vv 14-25 is not that of the believer in Christ who walks by the Spirit, it is that of the Jewish believers in Rome and Jews in general who were serving in the oldness of the Letter (v 6). When Paul exclaims I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord, he is speaking as a Jewish believer, to the Jewish believers stuck in the Law, telling them there's a Way out of this struggle! And then he shows them the way in Romans 8. To all the Calvinists/Baptists who think Rom 7 is about a Christian, I ask: Paul in 7:14 says that he is carnal, sold under sin. In 8:2 he says that he is free from the law of sin and death. Question, was Paul schizophrenic? Or does it make more sense that the one sold under sin is the Jew stuck in the Law or the Jewish believer serving in the oldness of the Letter?

[@bobpolo2964]

This is pretty much my interpretation as well

[@indo3052]

So we should still keep the jewish law correct?

[@donotcompromise]

Paul was speaking as if he was Adam???? I don’t see it, sorry.

[@holbrookth2]

Graeme Codrington uses this same hermeneutic to deny Paul's condemnation of sexual sin in Romans 1. It seems to me that this approach turns Pauline interpretation into a bit of a wax nose. Don't like what Paul is saying? Well he wasn't saying it,...it was just a "character" in his rhetorical argument.

[@psalmninetytwo3594]

Your objection is a straw man. Read Galatians 5:16-21, where Paul condemns sexual sin in no uncertain terms, and is not using a rhetorical device but instead speaking as himself, which fits with his other warnings in 1 Corinthians among other passages. That he uses a rhetorical device in Rom 7 does not preclude him from speaking as himself elsewhere. That's flawed logic.

[@terrydonegan1622]

Moffatt and JB Phillips render Romans 7 differently. Ending with Thanks be unto God through Jesus Christ our lord 🙏

[@tabasco7915]

After watching this presentation and reading a majority of the comments, I think of a Monkey Puzzle. There is no such thing as sinless perfection. Therefore, no matter how saved and sanctified we may be, the principle of Rom 7:13-24 is a continual present tense experience for the Christian (Gal 5:17) even though we endeavor to not practice sin and walk in newness of life such as is laid out for us in 1 Jhn. and many other passages of scripture. Rom 7:25 can only be objectively known until we redemptively / fully experience Rom 8:18-23 which for now is in the future tense. As James says, "We all stumble in many ways." This is never not true for the saved person and therefore Paul cries out, "Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?" This is because of our still present tense fallen condition (clinging vines). The Corinthians are a prime example. Thus, no matter what our interpretation of Romans 7 is, this should be the constant cry of the saved person simultanious with our rejoicing! I mean be honest, are any of us perfect in our obedience? When Paul articulated, "So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin" in 7:25, for us today, we can equate this (law) to our obedience and therefore we find this in principle to be a constant desire for the "truly saved person" (Rom 8:18-23). That is to say, "Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?" We must know that even Romans 8 is not yet a completed condition for us in the here and now as we are both sanctified and still being sanctified (Heb 10:14). This is why it is essential that we have a correct working knowledge of scripture relative to the doctrine of progressive sanctification as we are continually growing in our sanctification. unfortunately, growing involves much failuer and falling (Rom 3:23). We call it "trial and error."

[@drummerboy69n]

I can show one who DOES say sinless perfection in this earthly life is not only possible, but commanded. And it is instantaneous. If it is a process then you are sinning/resisting the Spirit.

[@drummerboy69n]

From Mike Rutkowski a teacher of sinless perfection - Are you a child of God or are you a sinner since it is impossible to be both? If you can get sick then you are definitely a sinner and I can certainly prove what I am relating in scripture. First understand that I am a sanctified disciple of Jesus Christ and I have overcome both sin and sickness in this life. That’s right, I am definitely stating that I cannot sin and that I can never get sick and you had better think twice before you try to disprove what I am about to relate since you may be condemning your soul in the process. If you somehow believe that you are a child of God but yet you possess sin and sickness in your life then try and prove it to me with scripture since I know that I can certainly prove that you are wrong and I can also prove that you do not know God at all. I can also prove that if you possess sin and sickness in your life then there is a very good chance that you are heading for an eternity in hell. So if you foolishly believe otherwise then once again try and prove it with scripture. I have had many foolish believers attacking me because I relate that I am a disciple of Jesus Christ who is sanctified in truth and that I have overcome sin and sickness in my life. Many of them just will not accept the truth that I can no longer sin nor can I ever get sick in this here life. I have related over and over how it is sin that allows the devil to destroy our lives with his sickness and disease and that if you possess sin then you certainly do not know God or scripture. Many believers will try to tell me that I am wrong and that what I relate is impossible because Jesus was the only sinless person. They mainly try to refute my wisdom simply because they are trying to justify the sin and the sickness that they possess in their own lives. So if you believe that I am wrong in my knowledge of God and scripture and you believe that you are correct then prove your misguided beliefs with scripture. Prove to me how you could possibly be a child of God and yet have sin and sickness in your life! Give me just one scripture verse where God instructed you to live in sin or where God stated that you will always sin. Give me one verse of scripture where God stated that a child of God will have sickness in their life or where sickness is a natural part of this life?

[@tabasco7915]

@@drummerboy69n I am just so glad you are sinless!

[@drummerboy69n]

@@tabasco7915 Woops you missed the opening context. I was sharing what someone ELSE was teaching. He ended up calling me a child of the devil smh.

[@tabasco7915]

@@drummerboy69n Opening context? I guess I'm at a loss.

[@philipbooth8076]

So the Law here is not so much talking about Levetical law but the knowledge of God and evil.

[@bobpolo2964]

no

[@jelayastewart4804]

Can be but I believe it is about the mosaic law, but it holds laws that can be sinful even if we don’t follow it

[@andrereginato3538]

It takes time to be conformed in the image of Christ... Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. = the struggle in Galatians 5 which again brings us under Grace by faith. We are indeed dead to sin and should no longer walk in it, but walk in the spirit. Paul was not yet delivered from the body of death as are we...shall we go on sinning....GOD forbid. We are conformed daily to be like Christ the firstfruits of a NEW CREATION. Our sins are covered by the blood of Christ but struggle still remains until we come to the full knowledge of GOD's love. The love between the father and the son. To go on purposely sinning is to not have faith, but to trust in the working of the holy spirit in our lives is peace with GOD...anything else is man's religion and not the Gospel of the Grace of GOD.

[@Liminalplace1]

You didnt get it

[@victorcritelli5790]

I am trying to follow where does it say it takes time to conform to the image of Christ and how much time, ? What do you mean struggle, If you mean temptation or trials this would be biblical but if you mean struggle with sin that we will always have seen daily thought word and deed I would ask ware does it say that? You state Gal 5 which is very much a mirror of rom 8, and it states 16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. SHortened version but the same thing If you walk in the spirit you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh and the spirit and the flesh are opposed to each other like light and darkness they cannot be in the same spot together , If we are in the flesh we cannot please God The darkness is at enmity with the light 8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. In fact he states the same thing in gal as he does in romans 8 that If you walk in the flesh you cannot be saved, it is death you will not inherit the kingdom of God 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. Same thing as Romans 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Sonship Through the Spirit 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors-not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

[@andrereginato3538]

@@victorcritelli5790 Hello Victor, We can either "be conformed to this world" or we can "be transformed by the renewing of [our] mind" (Romans 12:2). The Greek word for "conform" is syschematizo and means "to be molded according to a pattern." A potter moulds the clay to create the pot, it doesn't take its form straight away, it takes time. If you read again what you set out.... Sonship Through the Spirit 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors-not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. So to be led by the spirit is to be walking by faith, not by sight. Remember we walk by faith and we are justified by faith... Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. You are certainly going to struggle in your christian walk, but whether you succumb to it is a different matter. If you loose your faith you will fall. The sinner does not have the holy spirit and therefore does not have the teaching of the holy spirit in dwelling. Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Walking in the spirit means to trust in the power of God not yours.

[@destroyingtheworksofthedev9349]

@@andrereginato3538 Yea you are completely off base here, you are saying the spirit is only in you if you are not sinning lol?

[@andrereginato3538]

@@destroyingtheworksofthedev9349 NO, I did not say that. If you truly believe in GOD's grace and believe you have eternal life through his son, then why would you willingly go on sinning. We have the holy spirit because of our belief in the testimony that God the father has given of his son. Paul puts it perfectly...Romans 6...What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?......For he that is dead is freed from sin. We still have the holy spirit even if we do sin, but GOD is not looking at our sin but rather that we are becoming a new creation formed in the image of his son... Romans 8 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

[@duncescotus2342]

If you put yourself under law, yes.

[@giggleman9908]

Romans 7 reminds me of a section in chapter 20 of the Tao Te Ching where Lao Tsu describes a cosmic neurotic person with "i" .... "In spring some go to the park, and climb the terrace, But I alone am drifting, not knowing where I am. Like a newborn babe before it learns to smile, I am alone, without a place to go. Others have more than they need, but I alone have nothing. I am a fool. Oh, yes! I am confused. Others are clear and bright, But I alone am dim and weak. Others are sharp and clever, But I alone am dull and stupid. Oh, I drift like the waves of the sea, Without direction, like the restless wind. Everyone else is busy, But I alone am aimless and depressed. I am different. I am nourished by the great mother." (Gia-fu Feng and Jane English translation)

[@terrydonegan1622]

At last the correct understanding. Thanks for sharing 🙂

[@SpielbergMichael]

If you think that Paul isn’t talking about himself or Christians towards the end of Romans 7, and you want to say he’s talking about Adam or people who aren’t Christians - then you also have to explain why Peter also says the same thing about Christians: “Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage **WAR** against your soul.” ‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2‬:‭11‬ ‭ “but I see another law in my members, **WARRING** against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭7‬:‭23‬ ‭ This defeats the argument presented in this video. I believe Paul in Romans 7 is looking forward to our adoption by God in the future: “Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭7‬:‭24‬-‭25‬ “to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.” ‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4‬:‭5‬ ‭ “[we] groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭23‬ ‭

[@privatepilot4064]

It’s simple. It doesn’t take a bible “scholar” to figure this out. When a person gets saved their soul is saved, not their flesh. Our DNA is still corrupt. Paul tell us this in Romans 8:23 “And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.”

[@terrydonegan1622]

Law gave sin it's power

[@manonfire1174]

I found a link to a sample of the paper here. gradworks.umi.com/35/37/3537129.html

[@student207]

I see no indication of "impersonation of the Adamic". This is Paul speaking autobiographically. Adam doesnt know the Law is spiritual. He didnt even have the Law. Only command he had was not to eat from the tree.

[@bobpolo2964]

The "I" is Israelite believers (under the law) before they submitted to Christ. They were miserable because they couldn't obey God's law as they wanted to.

[@student207]

@@bobpolo2964 IMHO Paul is saying "I" as any human ( not Israelite who received revelation of the LAW) It seems more like Paul or anyone who begins understanding moral law and an outside claim on their life (god and neighbor). Adam didnt have the Mosaic LAW but his conscience became a law rom 2:14-15 (not speaking about the ceremonial but moral) 7v9-Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

[@bobpolo2964]

@@student207 The first verse of chapter 7 addresses those "who know the law", in reference to Jews. That's a specific audience. He's not talking to Gentiles in this section. It helps to read Romans 7 in the context of the entire letter and bring in the historical context as well. My understanding has grown because of these added dimensions

[@Liminalplace1]

Eithere way.. what is described is not a christian experience. I became a christian from realizing this struggle as someone brought up in a christian home... likewise someone who knows the Law of God. If you experience this struggle it is no ground to take assurance of salvation from. The Holy Spirit sets us free from when he comes thru the gospel. As an aside Romans 2:14-15 is a reference to Gentile Christians ."law written upon their hearts".. which is new covenant. It isnt a reference to natural law. (Cranfield, Wright)

[@1doceth]

Just to understand - so you are not christian if you struggle?

[@collin501]

I think you run into contradictions interpreting in both directions. First, if you say that Romans 7 does not apply to a true Christian, then why would Paul say to "put off the old man" and all the deeds of the old man. If it was completely past the old man would be automatically gone and not require putting off. But if we say Romans 7 is the perpetual experience of the Christian, this would contradict Romans 6 and 8, Galatians 5, and other places where we're commanded to put on the new man. The new man walks in righteousness and has none of the weakness of the flesh. Read all references to it in Paul and in 1 John and that will be clear. And by that we come to Romans 8:4 which says the righteous requirement of the law will be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. walking according to the flesh is Romans 7. Walking according to the Spirit is NOT Romans 7. It is the law being fulfilled IN us and even in our walk. So to me it's plain that there are contradictions in both directions. I don't see any way around that. Romans 7 MUST be something that a true Christian can experience. But also MUST be something a Christian can escape by the Spirit(Romans 8) and by faith(Romans 6).

[@Mike65809]

Romans 7 is simply Paul saying that the Law was not sufficient to bring righteousness in him, but in fact, made it more illusive, as sin became utterly sinful. Only Christ does the "law of the spirit of life in Christ set you free from the law of sin and death." His use of present tense verbs was only to illustrate the battle he had under the Law.

[@djs9315]

I still sometimes wanna punch people in the face. That's my flesh.. and tge residue the old man left on my patterns /conformity/learned ways.. it doesn't mean I act on it.. but my flesh has flesh (ego) tendencies My flesh will return to tge earth whete it came from.. it's a vehicle while I'm here on earth.. My spirit, his spirit, is pure and blameless

[@patrckhh20]

It makes no sense to say that Romans 7 isn't about a Christian. If it is not, it is utterly irrelevant to Paul's argument, because the whole question that he has been dealing with since chapter 6 is the Christian's walk with God and his relationship to the law. Besides, unbelievers do not long to be righteous before God in their heart. This is a struggle that only believers no. Gal 5 The Spirit wars against the flesh, and the flesh against the Spirit.

[@Daviusheart]

CalvinistOnACouch If we read Romans 7:14-25 and interpret the verses according to its context then it cannot be a Christian whatsoever. Most Evangelials/Pentecostals ,however, will say, yes, it's a Christian. I digress. Paul is impersonating a Jew under the law, not Adam, which can be but in another sub-context. Why a Jew? Well In this chapter he's talking about marriage: with the law (under the old pact)and with Christ (under the new pact). In v. 14 he is sold as a slave to sin, no christian is slave to sin; In v.18 he cannot carry out what is good within himself, because the law tells you your sin, but the Holy Spirit under the new pact empowers you to carry it out; In v. 19 he cannot stop sinning-christians have been empowered to stop sinning through Christ; In v.23 he is a prisoner to the law of sin-we have been set free from that law through Christ; and in v.25 there are two forces: one in his mind and one in his flesh. He thus obeys his flesh. He is bound. This is a prime example of how the Jews under the law lived. Because the law was the mentor until Christ appeared. And it takes us to its fulfillment in Romans 8. Romans 6 flows beautifully to chapter 7 and culminates in chapter 8. Can 7:14-24 be a Christian who struggles with sin? If we take it out of its context and use a second interpretation, then, yes. It can. We all go through it. Some more than others. The beauty of the bible is that one verse can have two or three injterpretations. We must know when is the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd is being used. But it's the second interpretation, just like we can take other verses in the Bible and use their second interpretation and it doesn't constitute heresy. The Bible is clear concerning sin. We must stop. There are exceptions, though, to the extent that we can sin every second of our lives and repent and still go to heaven, but we run the risk of hardening our hearts and committing apostasy. The struggle happens because we feed the flesh more than we feed what the spirit desires. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, said Jesus. Plus, vs.14-24 is not a free pass to sin. We sin out of weakness, not out of occupation like the heathens. I hope this helps a little.

[@patrckhh20]

What you call the "first interpretation" only confirms my view. Paul says he can't do what is good, and you say "but the Holy Spirit empowers you to." You're right. THAT is exactly why it is such a tragic struggle. Only someone who knows what the Holy Spirit has enabled them to do, and who truly has the desire to do it, could lament their own wickedness in the way Rom 7 does. Jews who are under the law, like the pharisees, are perfectly content in their outward performances and think they are righteous. Unbelievers do not know God and do not care to know God. Only a believer who desires to obey God from the heart could possibly under stand this chapter.

[@Daviusheart]

No, brother. The law was meant not only for outward performances but for inner revelation of sin. Most leaders of the O.T. only maintained hypocritical outward appearances and that was one of the reasons why God punished them in the O.T. besides their sinful lives, etc, of course. Most pharisees, Sadducees and religious leaders in the time of Jesus were the perfect example of hypocrites. You know that; I know that. Paul does what it's good. It's through out his epistles. If 7:14-15 applies to a N.T. Christian in its 1st interpretation then chapter 8 is ludicrous. His epistles and other writings would be weird. This chapter is about the people under the law (O.T.) vs Christians under Christ (N.T.). In its 2nd interpretation it can apply to a Christian who struggles with sin, and I have no problem with it. It was meant to be. I believe God allowed it to be like that. Just like many verses have 1, 2 o 3 interpretations with out going into heresy/misinterpretations, God allowed Paul to write it in such a way that would make this letter everlasting and have its meanings.

[@psalmninetytwo3594]

You miss the fact that the epistle to the Romans is written to both Jewish and Gentile believers. And chapter 7 more precisely, is written to those "who know the law", v 1, i.e., Jews who were still serving in the oldness of the letter (v 6). I know this is hard for a gentile mind to accept, but the truth is that Jews long for righteousness. They delight in the Law, reading more of it in a week than some gentile Christians will in a year! But of course they are going about it in the flesh, i.e., without Messiah. That is why the struggle depicted in Rom 7 is so intense. It is not normative for believers.

[@LionPebsX]

It's pretty simple, chapter 7 is discussing the law of sin and death. 8:2 says the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death. So Romans 7 is absolutely not a believer, it's a lost person. But people love to twist it to reassure themselves in their sin.

[@destroyingtheworksofthedev9349]

Yes and you are going to hell in a hand basket for being a hypocrite.

[@henrka]

Even if you are correct that Romans 7 Paul is not talking about himself but about the adamic sinful condition, are you telling me that because I experience a Romans 7 situation every day I am not a Christian ? This is utter nonsense, whether Romans 7 is about Paul or not I do not care, it is the life of all Christians. And for you to say that only unbelievers can have a Romans 7 experience is an utter heresy. Period. I personally believe every Christian’s life is reflected in Romans 7, though some people may struggle with this or that sin, every Christian engages in habitual sin in the area where they are weak which is different for everybody. If we say we have no sin we make God a liar and the truth is not in us, writes the apostle John in 1 John 8-10. The presence of sin is with us even until death. End of discussion, anybody that tells otherwise engages in heresy and diminishes the high bar of the law by pretending we can be good people and behave in a good way, which is impossible to do for the Christian.

[@biblicaltheologyexegesisan9024]

yes, i sin all the time. No matter how small or whatever. If you say you have no sin you are a liar. not buying the adam theory.

[@spovlock51]

I find this to be a rather gross mininterpretation of the text. Where is Adam mentioned in Romans 7? Nowhere. Did Adam's sin come as a result of covetousness, well not necessarily, sure Eve desired the wisdom of good and evil, but nowhere in the text do we find that Adam desired it as Eve did. As far as Paul's description in Philippians 3, I would expect a professor of New Testament studies to know that Pharisees saw themselves as blameless as far as the law went because they were only concerned with the external adherence to the law and ignored the internal reality of sin. Jesus said that lust in the heart is committing the act of adultery and hate in the heart is murder. The act of abstaining physically from doing something does not matter if inwardly you are committing the act. Once Paul got saved he understood that the law must be observed perfectly in order to be considered blameless. Also note the structure of the book of Romans. Romans 5-8 are the results of being saved. Romans 5 discusses the peace we have with God through justification by faith. Romans 6 begins the doctrine of sanctification and chapter 7 continues this doctrine by describing a believer struggling against the sin within him. And chapter 8 concludes the most glorious result of justification; no condemnation. I am not convinced by his interpretation as I believe it is a very poor interpretation of the text. Present tense verbs and personal identification can mean nothing else but the fact that Paul is speaking of himself.

[@Mike65809]

Romans 7 is simply Paul saying that the Law was not sufficient to bring righteousness in him, but in fact, made it more illusive, as sin became utterly sinful. Only Christ does the "law of the spirit of life in Christ set you free from the law of sin and death." His use of present tense verbs was only to illustrate the battle he had under the Law.

[@elviselv7839]

Why an unconverted person wants to do the right thing or to do what pleases God??Bible says that an unconverted person is dead to the things of God. An unconverted person wants to sin,not do the right thing for God. Romans 7 is the strugle of a christian who is trying to live his Christian life in the flesh ,with his strength.that's why he fails.

[@bobpolo2964]

Can you support your claim from the text?

[@elviselv7839]

@@bobpolo2964 sure ,i can.the whole Bible is written to the church ,for the believers.romans is written to roman believers for example.is written to explain the christian experience.if you are serious christian i recommend that you listen on KZbin to a reading from Watchman Nee:Holy Spirit. it's about 28 min.and :How to enter the life that wins.you will understand what I'm talking about.thanks

[@bobpolo2964]

@@elviselv7839 You didn't walk through Romans 7

[@LionPebsX]

An unconverted Jew who seeks to obey the law.

[@triumphk9training687]

Unless you're a Jew trying to please God through the law. Jews are not born again and yet they try to please God all the time. So I disagree with your statement.

[@1oxyoke]

I have watched several videos by Withington and he has yet to get anything right. In all of church history, no theologian has ever interpreted Romans 7 the way Withington has interpreted it. I think Withington is trying to out do N.T. Wright's goofy theology. Historically, Romans 7 has been interpreted two ways. First, as a saved person struggling against the flesh or the sin nature. The other interpretion is it is a Jew under the law who delights in the law of God with his mind because it is holy and good but cannot obey the law from his heart because of his sinful nature. Obviously, it is not about a saved person but it is about a Jew under the law. Romans 8:3 sums it up by saying For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:" See the writings of Arminius and Godet.

[@MyRoBeRtBaKeR]

This guy needs to go back to the drawing board. It makes absolutely no sense to claim that he is speaking as Adam. Was Adam given the law? "I had not known sin until the law said do not covet". Paul was surely speaking of his own experience. "For I know that in me (that is in my flesh,) dwells no good thing". The will, that is in him, is his new spirit, that agrees with the law, that it is good (12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.) Therefore it is he, with his mind, I will say with his inward spirit man, that serves the law of God(vs 25). Galatians 5:17 backs up his point in Romans 7 15-23 Galatians 5:17-26 King James Version 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Two separate members, that is to say two sets of desires, dwell in the body of a Christian. One has been converted and born of God and desires to do all His will but then there is another law that wars against this new law, much like the body rejecting good medicine, and because we are weak in the flesh, we can not always do what, that is our spiritual man, is our WILL/desire to do. I emphasized WILL because that is key, when you willingly do what you know to be wrong, it is sin. James 4:17 I'll stop here but if anyone is interested in more of what I have to say then ask.

[@henrka]

Even if this interpretation of Romans 7 were accurate, which it is not, we still have the problem of millions of professing Christians going through Romans 7 experiences unable to keep their flesh into submission. Romans 7:17 clearly depicts a man sinning against his will, which is evidence of a repentant heart, and Paul stating that remaining sin God does not impute. to me Romans 7 clearly describes the Christian experience, and the continuous need for forgiveness after conversion.

[@Wunji1]

Before Paul found Christ (or rather, was found by him), he was the most blameless Jew on the planet, which made him all the more guilty because he thought this would save him. If he was the greatest Jew in practice, he would most certainly be, in his eyes, the greatest offender of the Gospel of Christ. To wit, Paul was so zealous as a Jew, that he would imprison, and even abide the murder of innocent Christians, which affording him the self-proclamation of "chief of sinners"! I see no reason to think that Paul was speaking "in character". Rather, it seems he is "looking back" at a time when he read the law, yet at that time, being fueled by his proclivity towards the zealous pursuit of God and untiring obedience, kept every word of it (the law). But, now (looking back) sees that it was the source of death that could only be realized when he, as a believer, understood what had actually happened when he read the law to begin with - not unlike 1 Timothy 1:13 where he, again, recalls his former self. Further, I do not at all read vrs. 9 of Romans 7 to refer to someone living "before" the law came. If you want to try and go around the text that way, then at least be literal enough with the text to realize that Adam would not have even known 1) that "you shall not covet" was part of a body of commands given to Moses (vrs. 7), and 2) what the "law" was in the context of a body of commands in which to call "holy...righteous, and good". So, it cannot be an impersonation of Adam. The struggle with sin (vrs. 14-25) seems to me to be Paul as well, and not someone else. He writes this way in other passages (1 Timothy "But we know that the law...", and 1 Cor. "For we know in part... just to name a few). This just seems the normal Pauline style of writing to me - but hey - I don't teach at Asbury either lol. Cheers...