Does Sydney Trains need Platform Screen Doors?

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[@geoffshang3564]

As a blind person, I am a big fan of platform screen doors. Fortunately, I've never fallen off a platform or train, but I know people who have, and the fact that they managed to get away with it without serious injury or loss of life is as much about Luck as anything else. I appreciate the limitations that you mentioned, but I believe that it's better to have them on some platforms than on none. I realise there is cost, but can we really value a life at $200,000?

[@whophd]

Yeah since that number is a lot of guesswork anyway, I could take another guess that is $2,000,000 or $20,000,000, by altering the starting assumptions. Think about all the time saved from not having to rescue people, or, more mundane, not having to chauffeur them instead. Children should be using trains, and so should everyone regardless of ability. The fact that we are adding the mere ability for fast + heavy impact, to an everyday part of life, is vital to look at again.

[@whophd]

Just to open up on “time saved”: Just add up the disruption costs alone. A Sydney Trains service has 1,000 seats. How long is a disruption? What does a passenger earn, in the job they’re late to get to? Yep, it’s easy to show $200,000 is underestimating it.

[@jm56585]

I thought the 200,000 thing was per life per year? so like someone with 50 years more of life expectancy is worth 10 million ig

[@glauberglousger956]

@@geoffshang3564 If I remember correctly, I read somewhere that the US values it as 85,000, so... But yeah, doors

[@TomHommus]

Speaking about cost of human life i believe thats one of the main reasons against them in the new York subway. They did a calculation and calculated it would be cheaper to just get sued by the families of people killed rather than install psds across the stations

[@mgp1203]

That’s… wow.

[@ecopennylife]

That's how car recalls work, if the cost of the recall exceeds the likely costs of being sued then they'll not do the recall & just pay out any claims that happen ...

[@varno]

The issue is that when you get to this scale of project money IS people's lives. $5-10M is the entire life's work of a person, and $20M IS the number of waking hours a person has in their entire life. So, building something that rarely saves a life but is hugely expensive is wasting people's lives on something. You could perhaps Argue if the amount of money it takes to waste a life is $5,10,20 or 50M, but at some point in between these numbers spending that much in construction wastes that many lives.

[@calculuscondensed812]

@@varno Not to mention the opportunity cost. At a certain point it becomes cheaper to fund more lives saved using the healthcare system or some other means than through transport safety.

[@declanwinchester5146]

Can happen on the metro because it is driverless, platforms are straight and all stock is identical. Will not work on the other existing stations. Besides the platform screen doors aren't the problem, its the gap between the train and the platform - which is a major reason why the Bankstown line is being shut down for a year.

[@joshporter5422]

They also increase platform capacity by doing away with the regulatory safety spacing from the platform edge. Stations with narrow platform widths could see a capacity increase of (roughly) 10% using PSD’s. Think Town Hall e.g.

[@whophd]

Never mind lightning strikes! WE DON’T TALK about cars killing people anymore. Do people realise we can memorise every single tragedy on the railways, and with e-bikes for that matter? That’s not true for cars! Why? $$$ ??

[@user-gc1ky2rf3y]

ATO isn’t strictly needed for PSD. In Stockholm, commuter trains without ATO use platforms with platform screen doors just fine.

[@thetrainguy4]

It's not strictly necessary but considering the stopping accuracy of ST drivers I think it's more than a good idea

[@quacky1350]

I think we should consider what they did at Olympic Park, where they have barriers placed in the platform between the doors, but without the gate part a psd. Definitely won't work at a lot of stations, but may help with safety, and it seems relatively cheap to put a couple of metal gates down.

[@TomHommus]

Not overly a concern as the metro platforms at Olympic Park will have PSDs. And will be servicing the city and Parramatta corridor. So I'd say 75 percent of the patronage will move from trains to metro after it is opened.

[@quacky1350]

@@TomHommus true, but maybe adding fences in between where there aren't doors on a platform a half decent idea (until intercity trains come into ruin it all)

[@flamingfrancis]

In speaking of OP it operated brilliantly during the Olympics when passengers alighted from one side of the train and then doors on other side were opened for entry of the joining passengers on the other platform.

[@TomHommus]

@@flamingfrancis the Olympic Park metro station will have this design as well 4 platforms 2 tracks

[@lachd2261]

I would support them on the busy underground platforms in the CBD. Wynyard and Town Hall especially - those platforms get stupidly busy. Maybe even Circular Quay could benefit

[@todplatinum5789]

Could also address the air pollution issue from train brakedust

[@suave-rider]

they will be less busy from tomorrow and next year when the metro diverts passengers from those stations

[@akswalia6588]

Quickly becoming one of my fav youtubers!

[@thebats5270]

I agree with your comments on the use of guards on the Sydney Trains network. Melbourne doesn't have guards on their suburban trains. Same Union in Melbourne and Sydney, but it's ok for Melbourne for Driver Only Operations and not for Sydney? Yes, additional cameras were set up in Melbourne for drivers to assist with Driver Only Operation. No one is saying that the Drivers won't have additional supporting infrastructure, but what is needed to decrease the cost of getting people from A to B. Currently in Sydney it take 2 or 3 people to release a train from a station, whereas the same scenario in Melbourne its 1 person. Certain scenarios I can see there being need for flagging staff (e.g. Parramatta at peak hour). Back to the topic at hand, where possible I think Platform screen doors would be a net benefit. No one is saying they all need to be installed all at once across the network. But doing these works over time would likely be a net benefit. But also understand that this is another potential point of failure and point of train delays.

[@CaptainsChannel58]

Considering it's almost a daily occurrence when the network grinds to a halt because someone thought they need to be down on those tracks. Yes these are absolutely necessary in Sydney.

[@carisi2k11]

Yes but probably gates like what is at platforms 1 and 4 at olympic park and not screen doors. Tilting the platform away from the edge would also have stopped the issue at Carlton.

[@jm56585]

I think the benefit of platform screen doors/gates can extend beyond just saving lives: - they get rid of problems with Bernoulli's effect so trains can pass faster/accelerate faster around the platforms, and reduce overall travel time and increase line capacity - they increase train reliability because you're not going to have some drunk bogan walking onto the tracks/someone committing suicide

[@Techno-Universal]

They will also have PSDs in the new Melbourne Metro Tunnel and a new moving block signalling system will be used! However it will be fully automatic within the metro tunnel! :)

[@jack2453]

Great video. Sets out the costs and benefits really well. My understanding is that a further benefit is that acceleration and braking can be faster, allowing for higher frequencies.

[@quarkcypher]

I support platform doors on the metro lines but it would be too expensive to install on all Sydney trains stations. I have witnessed an intoxicated person fall under a train at Lidcombe Station. As a regular traveller on Sydney trains over the years, I have been delayed by people falling, jumping or threatening self-harm at railway stations quite a few times. I do agree though that it would be unviable to make all stations on the network totally safe.

[@koharumi1]

There is another option instead of using screen doors for station platforms, rising barriers. In Japan they use this. "Made from a series of long, thick wires threaded between pillars positioned along the edge of the platform at 10-metre intervals, the barrier is intended to keep travelers safe and prevent accidents and suicides as trains pull into crowded stations whose platforms are rarely fitted with barriers or safety gates. The wire rope screen will remain down at the edge of the platform until trains make a complete stop at the station."

[@This_is_a_test572]

He mentioned this at the end of the video but isn't a fan. I think this could be a decent stop-gap option and would presumably be cheaper.

[@louieuow]

Common safety sense tells me that baby prams should always be facing along the length of the platform and should only be turned to point to the train after it has stopped. With this in mind, would have the Carlton tragedy occurred even if the pram brakes were not activated?

[@FlyxPat]

Those platforms have stood for 100 years, inner ones 150, but suddenly now we need platform barriers. When I was a kid red rattlers ran with the doors open, we’d lean out in the wind on hot days. imagine the carnage that would lead to, with the present population …

[@thebats5270]

@@FlyxPat Good point. The issue is that there are two general types of train platform. The ones you're talking about that are 100+ years old that slope towards the track for rain run off, and the newer platforms that slope away from the train to a centre platform drain. As a passenger/customer you may not be familiar with one type or the other. If you get on at a centre drain platform (e.g. Revesby) and you haven't had an issue with the pram brake at this station, you may then attend an older station (e.g. Carlton) and not realise the difference. Funny thing is that most of the more heavily trafficked stations (Parramatta, Westmead, Blacktown, Central suburban platforms, Hornsby, Revesby, the City Underground) and more of the unstaffed stations have the older track drainage style.

[@SevenCostanza]

Cant have it with driver trains. Drivers would have to stop precisely like a robot. And also its common to over or under run the platform a bit in the slippery wet. Now they can look out and see if they are on the platform and then open doors, or not open the first car doors but open the others that are on the platform. These positioned doors will screw things up majorly. This will never happen

[@thetrainguy4]

Which is why I said it needs ATO...

[@glauberglousger956]

Horizontal/Vertical poles With sections that are automatically lifted when a train comes Not as effective as a whole door but good enough Either that or a bump to prevent things from rolling down combined with ladders so people can climb back up if needed Add a button that the station operator/anyone can push, and you can warn trains in advance

[@DorkBoy77]

To answer your question? Yes. Can't see it happening anytime soon due to the alignment and curves of platforms. Carriage doors are also in different positions on different sets. Short answer? All trains need to be Waratahs on straight platforms similar to Sydney Metro. Does anyone know of curved metro platforms?

[@dnaylor2484]

unfortunately none of the options current or possibly planned can fix peoples lack of awareness regarding safety nor the "deer in headlights" reaction in an emergency... those platform screen doors do also allow a lot more onto the platform in peak times without concerns of people being jostled off the platform... in the Carlton station instance both driver of the train and parent had little warning due to speed and curve of track.. driver wouldn't have been expecting to stop anyway due to the station not being a stop on that route, parent had plenty of space on outside of track curve away from platform to drag the kids with pram attached but unfortunately chose to try and get back onto the chest high platform... before and after the incident there have been plenty of safety announcements, signage etc, regarding prams though possibly not in the specific language required for the victims but even so people being distracted can't be guarded against by anyone other than those people themselves... 🙁

[@phillip1604]

The problem I see is that not all trains have the same positioning of doors. For example Tangaras and K sets which still comprise a 20-30% of the fleet have different positionings on their N cars compared to all the other trains, not to mention the V sets and regional services. The platform doors will not be able to handle the varying positions of each train

[@suave-rider]

Millenniums onwards had their door alignment massaged to match K sets

[@thetrainguy4]

Which is why I said they couldn't work with regional trains but could once the V and Ks are retired.

[@phillip1604]

@@suave-rider K sets (and Tangaras) are not matched. Only way it can work once retiring of K set is have T4 run exclusively Tangara. Another problem is that 6 and 10 car D sets will not work as car 4 of a 4 car train will not match to that of a 6 car train

[@mcplayer152]

@@phillip1604 kzbin.info/www/bejne/r5S0Zn2bg69mac0 Perhaps the vertical PSDs found in Japan could help with the problem.

[@TomHommus]

​@@phillip1604 Bondi junction to Hurstville should be converted to metro. Especially if the airport line will no longer have any services via Sydenham. People can then get off Hurstville on the Intercity and get a decent service to Wolli creek, which would resolve the need for 2 extra platforms at Wolli which is difficult to implement. Also gives stations with current rubbish service such as St Peters Erko Arncliffe Banksia Carlton allawah decent service. Services further from Hurstville can go to Sydney terminal.

[@MainTransportvlogs]

Yea I feel like some of the station need platform screens especially on underground station to prevent accidents but it requires lots of hard work.

[@samuelnicholls3068]

great video good pionts

[@oufukubinta]

They should, but the Intercity trains have different door placements to the suburban lines. Even if they don't install platform doors, having the train doors open at the same place each time would mean that people would line up to enter the trains which would mean less delays

[@ranger8237]

They could do it Without the technology the Train could press a button to open the doors

[@kingsbishop1479]

Professionally it is a great idea but personally not a fan of it people who grew up watching Thomas the tank engine would disagree with platform screen doors. Mabye it would be good for suburban stations but I don’t think intercity stations would need it However if Central had it train speeds at Central could be increased as the reason why the max speed is so slow there is because of the amount of people

[@whophd]

One economic benefit that can be added is: “Amenity” is increased by the proportion of people CHOOSING to go by rail instead of driving etc., because (and don’t underestimate it), people are scared or annoyed by the experience. And why not, it’s rational - several tonnes moving right past you at 100km/h? The problem with economic rationale is getting them right, not in attempting them at all. Predicting the future is always worthwhile even when you’re wrong.

[@thetrainguy4]

I don’t think it’s possible to put PSDs at stations where trains routinely pass through at speed, except possibly the Locals between Redfern and Homebush.

[@Ram8as]

I agree...I suggested something like that, while back on another channel. But the problem with that, they'll need to upgrade the trains themselves.

[@thetrainguy4]

It absolutely does not require a metro conversion

[@Ram8as]

@@thetrainguy4 hmmm won't that mean they'll have to retrofit existing rolling stock to be compliant with the PSDs?

[@blueryan12346]

I actually agree on your question

[@anyanyanyanyanyany3551]

If I could wake up 4am, I'd like to hop on the first metro from Sydenham all the way to Tallawong.

[@maccomplex]

To get PSD's you dont need gap fillers and vice versa. NYC subway use gap fillers at some stations and they dont have PSD's. Also I think we need a preliminary step and just place a gate about 3-4m wide to align with the center of each carriage to provide a safe area to stand behind and keep a wide gap for where the doors would sit for T, H, A, B and K sets.

[@TomHommus]

That's because they figured it would be cheaper to do a payout for the unfortunate people than install them like the video says there's economic costs to life whether you like it or not

[@user-pt8im9kl4i]

there are 4 problems 1. How hard it is to install them/ the time it will take to be installed. 2. making sure the signaling system works/ the time it will take to be approved by the safety commission. 3. retiring the regional trains, making sure the converted Xplorer's/ endeavor rail cars are able to meet the requirements of the signaling system. 4. if they we're to do it in major stations like central good luck running replacement busses the CBD that there part of is extremely congested. Solution for installing them: install them at certain stations where Sydney metro already runs Like Chatswood, you could run the replacement buses while there being installed.

[@jack2453]

We're about to find out the answers to a lot of these questions as a result of the Bankstown line conversion.

[@jack2453]

Re Q4. You don't have to do the every platform at the same time.

[@DavidHunter-cd3bw]

What about different train lengths and different location of train doors.

[@SharlosRevenkai]

I don't get why gap fillers are required and not just a nice-to-have/accessibility improvement? What stops us from using the existing (manual) gap fillers used today?

[@thetrainguy4]

How does one roll a wheelchair over a rubber strip 10cm below the platform edge?

[@gaosong2101]

I think you should talk a bit more on the rope platform doors. For the standard platform screen doors, they are basically impossible to be installed across the whole network as you said. The rope platform doors could very well cover most of the network, avoid the tragedy from happening again, increase the platform capacity and could cost significantly less than the typical platform doors.

[@thetrainguy4]

BUT- they are very complicated, there's very little international expertise let alone domestic, they don't provide nearly as much benefit and they are still expensive.

[@MariaRiveriaHernandez]

Why can’t the section of the platform between the train and yellow line have a slight “ramp” elevation so that prams or objects don’t roll towards the tracks.

[@WanderingBabs]

This could also mean that there could be level boarding the full length of the train, as in Perth.

[@JayJayGamerOfficial]

@@MariaRiveriaHernandez exactly that, bring some sort of small barrier which stops prams from rolling towards the edge but can be moved when the train stops, some sort of mechanical lip where the yellow line is would be beneficial as it Stops wheels from rolling over it until the train stops

[@Zorren0808]

Fantastic video!

[@maffarick]

Who wants to see TTG4 start making TSW videos again!

[@darkillusionists2595]

For the regional train not being able to fit the standard platform screen doors, I would like to reference the Umekita platform screen doors in Osaka. Which opens differently depending on the train type entering the station.

[@danieleyre8913]

Far too expensive Too much gap between carriages and platforms Few Mainline stations get crowded enough to justify them That accident with the pram was dreadful. But it was a freak accident mainly caused by lack of education of the victims. People need to know that railway platforms are dangerous places, even more dangerous than the side of a road, and be continually aware of it.

[@ludwigtails]

I am unfamiliar with how are Sydney train door layout is. However I wouldn’t suggest putting platform screen or gate doors. Because if you do you are basically stuck with a specific door layout on a carriage. In which if a new design trains would use a new door layout for whatever reason, the TOC won’t be able to implement that new door layout due to the stuck door layout of screen/gate door. Also need to consider rather or not can existing platforms are strong enough to hold the platform screen/gate door and that will cost more to upgrade existing platform structure. Also not related so safety but if screen or gate doors are implemented. It will just be harder for us to film trains-

[@AustralianCapitalist]

No it doesn’t cause makes our stations look ugly

[@thetrainguy4]

Oh wow big concern there