Does The Finals Nerf Too Much?

[@Grantedpassage390]

“Get prepared for some big changes in S4” does Appoh have insider knowledge that we don’t?! 👀👀

[@Appoh]

maybe

[@RGisOnline]

@@Appoh 👀

[@abhishekak9619]

Hope they are good.​@@Appoh

[@Mokuro]

@@Appoh hahaha I bet!

[@coldfire6679]

I'm quitting this game, they're just stupid

[@jganrd]

I love how this is a really well thought out video about buffs/nerfs to the finals, but is ANYONE going to talk about APPOH's bow gameplay here? holy fuck dude is just tearing it UP! Gonna have to start playing Bow i guess hawt dayum

[@mellowker]

This is so accurate, you're spot on , I'd like to add the fact that playing next to the meta with a full stack ( to avoid people throwing for being off meta ) HLH with L being movement and heals or HMM with a full damage / demat M and heal M is very fun, H in these comps usually use the flame first 2 rounds and any gun for the last round. I've actually won more rounds playing non meta than meta ( probably thanks to team coordination ). Anyway, I'm done blabbing, your content rocks ! : )

[@alohame5582]

Confirmed

[@Ribstar]

Lol your winning son

[@gumball5215]

I was a Medium main for seasons 1 & 2, but got bored of the healing role. Season 3 I picked up Light because I love bows. Because of how bad the bow is, halfway through the season I decided to switch to the XP-54 so I could start bringing some actual value to my team. I'm a Gold / Platinum player. In those lobbies, a triple Medium team is near impossible to beat. They all have defib, so you essentially have to fight 6 players. Then there's usually at least one turret, which as a Light, might as well be another player with how much hp they have. No matter where you walk, there's a glitch trap tether or an explosive mine. On top of all of that, the Model 1887 is DEADLY to a Light. If I happen to cross the line of sight with a turret for a split second, then run into someone using the Model, it's a 1-shot. I hope something is done to change things up in Season 4. It's become a situation where there's no room for experimentation with builds because of how dominant certain combinations are.

[@gnhatch]

honestly i like the slightly longer time to kill, its more about skill and adapting to or breaking the environment and less about who jumps who off guard. the slower ttk with super high movement is what drew me to the game in the first place

[@Fiendir]

Big same. If you want short TTK then there's plenty of games there already. I think for the technical complexity of all the server-side destruction and movement, a low TTK just feels inconsistent and fickle. I think we're in a perfect spot rn, requires us to be a lot more consistent with my aim and tactics than getting "lucky" a few times. Even if it shows the flaws in my own aim more :P

[@Major_K_2]

While I kind of agree with this I feel like it's pushed the need for a coordinated three stack so far to the top. I actually feel like my tactical gameplay helped me more when guns had some guts to them. The problem now is I'm getting random teammates that are getting fried off the opening of the fight and I can rarely pull off a 1v3. I gave up my emerald grind because of this. But you are right, and I've been saying this the whole time that maybe the devs want the ttk to be slower. I think it's good but I think the games are to fast now and there isnt enough time to respond if you wipe part way into a cashout.

[@dante999rey]

Tbh the ultra high ttk is what draws me back a ton from this game, I like ttk being on the high end but this is waaaay to much sometimes, and I'm pretty sure is what draw others away too it may be more "skilled" but to me it's just not fun and that what a game is about so yeah

[@mershere]

if it was reduced slightly, i think we'd be in a good sweet spot for TTK

[@jericodawsonmarcos7529]

medium not using heal is a throw is crazy when silent breach and combat engineer can be impactful

[@Sizyphus]

True but not having at least one heal on the team is a throw at high level because it’s so insanely impactful.

[@gunmanjack3975]

@@Sizyphus meet the medic

[@jericodawsonmarcos7529]

@@Sizyphus that's fair actually even at season 2 plat i can tell they have an impact just by being alive

[@Fiendir]

It all comes down to what you're facing tbh. If enemy is running high burst like shotgun/sniper/etc and coordinating? Then you have no time to heal before your target is dead, and your gadget is basically useless. It'd be better off having a sentry to distract, or demat to flank/evade, and to most importantly have your own gun out to help do damage back. I love the heal gun and playing support, but in some situations I really am cursing that I didn't grab my demat loadout... I like to think that Embark's thought of balance is a rock-paper-scissors kind of deal (just look at how smoke/fire/gas/goo all have interactions) and is trying to apply the same to abilities

[@s2wuolf508]

@@jericodawsonmarcos7529i’ve had moments where 1 guys gets caught out not badly but could have died if I didn’t have the healing beam, it can completely change some fights even when thw turret is an annoying area denying pos. I’m glad they removed recon senses too tbh

[@nobleshmoble]

nerf appoh

[@shipwreck9146]

With the amount of variables this game has, I'd bet that balancing is just a ridiculously difficult task, and it takes a lot of iterative experimentation and data collection to get the values balanced where they want them. When a nerf or buff happens, there will always be people who are upset.

[@swarnavaghosh908]

Curent state is very ballanced

[@EliteCustodes]

4:20 The reason why so many people play the model not because it's 'op', but because the fcar got nerfed to the ground. Also, I don't think the ARs are in such a good place tbh. The AK is just the best one, period. More dmg per mag, very good breakpoints and ttk, easiest recoil. The famas is alright, not too good, not too bad, though it requires a much better accuracy than the AK. As for the fcar, it's just the worst AR rn. Terrible recoil and very low dmg per mag.

[@GloGangPromoterr]

And people called me crazy for wanting the Pre nerf Fcar back I still play with it but I prefer 20 bullets more damage than 5 more bullets and less damage I feel like they nerfed it to make it on par with the AKM

[@bicman7826]

As always Appoh you make some new great points and ones I've thought but can't put as eloquently. I've got a few ideas, not sure how they'll be received through. Buffs: Reduce recoil slightly for FCAR and Lewis Increase Famas Damage by 1 Increase headshot multiplier on the bow Make demat go through 2 layers of wall/object instead of 1 Decrease damage drop off of the KS23 and the Revolver Increase damage of 93r by 2 Spear should do multi-hit damage like the Sword Dual blades have a slightly faster swing rate so increase dps Being able to crouch will Riot shield Add new medium specialisarion that can be used in TA Nerfs: Increase damage drop off Model, XP54 and light pistol Increase number of pellets on model but reduce the damage per pellet (getting 1 shot by it as a light is very common) Reduce the rate of which the heal beams heals (maybe to 2/3rds it's original) Decrease health spawned back in with defib Decrease RPG damage to 95 but increase destruction damage and possibly give 2 rockets I'm sure more will come to me but that's the ones I can mainly remember off the top of my head. Keep smashing the content Appoh, best finals creator going ❤

[@MetatronsRevenge613]

Rocket Jump NOW. No Self Damage or reduce it to 30

[@OfficialKingz_yt]

I think riot shield should block fire or block melee but not both because then it would be overpowered (this is so sword lights, and sledge/flamethrower heavy’s don’t always win every fight)

[@kkay0kay]

+1 damage to the FAMAS would make it completely broken against Lights cause then it'd be able to 2-burst them, the Model is fine as it is, and the Spear can already multi-hit, but other than that I like these suggestions.

[@alohame5582]

Buffs are mostly fine. But: Famas would be able to 2 burst lights Also, the fact that you want to add crouch to riot shield shows that nobody really knows what it needs, including embark. Just give us 100 damage with more attack speed at least. Reduce the smoke grenade cooldown dramatically For the nerfs: You should compensate model nerfs with a bit less awkward reload, since half model gameplay is already reloading. In my eyes RPG should do like 100 damage on a 30 sec cooldown. More consistent but less fight ending Nerf charge and slam damage at all stages. It does too much. Winch. Yeah, the whole thing is a problem

[@jeldraws3854]

I wonder how getting oneshot by model as a full HP light would be even possible. In shooting range you simply cannot oneshot lights with it. And playing as medium with model often I can tell from all enemies lights are the most annoying ones to deal with because of their tiny hitbox and mobility. And you have to land at least 2 shots on them while medium players also need 2

[@gumdev1]

I think for me, what drew me into this game was obviously and gameplay loop and destruction and game show style, but when actually getting my hands on it, I LOVED the mix of team-based gameplay and solo gameplay. It felt like I could make a lot happen on my own and have moments where I could really show off in a match and solo uncoordinated squads, while also being able to lean on my own squad mates if the match got sweaty. It currently feels like TTK is getting slower and slower, and specializations and gadgets that cater to the overwatch style of “forcing team play to get anywhere” are getting way more love than more solo play-focused stuff. Thats why cloak and stun gun and stuff got nerfed heavily while things like heal beam stayed relatively the same, or don’t get direct nerfs. Even heavy’s mesh shield that got nerfed so many times, they nerfed it suuuper incrementally, telling players like me that the devs desire to go in a more team based direction. Edit: I wasn’t gonna put my opinion on it, but honestly, if i wanted every gun and class to feel useless alone and be wielding pea-shooters, I’d play overwatch or a moba. I liked The Finals because it took the road less traveled, and I hope they don’t lose their identity because a bunch of people who can’t conceive being shitted on and only want to play variations of hero shooters keep yelling for things to be nerfed.

[@CILINKY]

I would say overall the nerfs have felt warranted. Anyone who played season 1 remembers the nuke spam, massive shield health, and SA12 dominance of heavies. While medium had legal wall hacks with recon sense and FCAR beaming you across maps from rooftops. I'm happier with the longer TTK times as it feels more skill oriented rather than who sees who first wins a gun fight. I would say explosives still need a bit of adjustment to counter the mine and RPG spamming right now that is less skill oriented. I think they should reduce the amount of explosive and and fire canisters on the map and make people use explosives more for breaching and trap clearing. Not reduce canisters but replace said canisters with more goo, gas, and poison ones. I think this would give C4 more of a place in the game again and a reason to use flash bangs more. Lastly I think medium could be more balanced by swapping the defib with the dematerializer so mediums have to pick between healing or reviving since both are strong. Could care less if turret gets love because it's a low skill ceiling ability that is DPS focused rather than support. This would make the dematerializer much more of a reasonable pick as well.

[@hybridstudios1449]

The medium changes would be a dream tbh. Demat is some of the most fun I've had in a game going for creative outplay potential but you can really feel the pain in giving up the pure power that is healing. And I do hate feeling forced to take defib when often I'd rather want more aggression etc. putting the two supportive abilities in the same slots limits how much support a medium can do while opening up secondary slots for more aggression plays

[@AbhijeetSingh-xr2ex]

THANK YOU for finally explaining what it feels like to play heavy now. Heavy has felt the worst to play this season out of all 3 and even though I had my fun with winch initially I just eventually stopped playing heavy because of how bad it feels to play this season(the dome nerf was the final straw). For some time now though if you say anything about how bad it feels to play heavy a million people appear before you on reddit to say HHM is meta, heavy is overpowered, heavy is the best class etc. not even trying to listen to your point. You can try saying lewis recoil is bad and made the gun not viable for most casuals and then people will pop up saying lewis is still the best weapon for heavy and skill issue or something. And to play light you need to be absolutely tuned in and play like an adhd kid popping off and destroying the lobby with all the movement and although I have a lot of fun doing that, it's only viable for me on weekends cuz after getting burnt out at work I generally don't got the energy to play as a light. Despite all that light is the only fun class left to play as it's got the best weapons and so many gadgets that are viable that I often get confused what to pick. So in the end with heavy feeling bad to play and not having energy to play as light, medium has been my default this season(kinda ironical since in season 1 I used to say medium is the most boring FPS class and Heavy/lights were so much more fun and dynamic). Although medium seems to have become even more boring now as only 2 weapons are viable, 1887 and akm. FCAR feels like a worse akm with lower dps and less ammo(only thing it has is it's scope) and I'm not a big fan of burst weapons so I'm not using the famas. CL40 got gutted, revolver has always been situational and you really gotta hit your shots to use it. So pretty much this season genuinely feels the worst to play in general and I really hope they do some good balancing next season to offset this L they had this season. The most important balance change I can think of for heavy is reverting lewis recoil and dome nerfs and for medium is just some kind of buffs for FCAR cuz right now it's just not it.

[@Andrewstown]

Some notes from me: 5:45 - I don’t think the LH1 is in the worst state, in fact, it’s in the best state right now! I think the disaster it was at the beginning of the season showed us that it should NOT have anything more than 49 dmg per shot, especially with the 2x HS it has. Yes, its recoil is still a bit high, but it’s controllable and still a very powerful weapon. I personally think this is one of the weapons they could be done with, unless you want to see it at 49 damage, so you can tracking dart a Med to kill it at 5 HP lol. 6:19 - At first, we all cried about this change, but in reality, we needed it and we didn’t even realize. A heavy being able to just sit in their cocoon and make presence for free was really suppressive and annoying to deal with, and the idea that it can’t hold a whole steal, with the idea that you need to take the area first, is healthy in my opinion. We saw a huge strat back in season 1 and 2 where 2 heavies would just pile shields onto a steal, mesh, heal beam, and get it. I think heavies should work for the steal, and maybe we’ll see it buffed again if glitch is looked at to be more effective in the future. 8:05 - I would like to see heal beam stay around this potential, but make it more difficult it utilize properly. Maybe to keep it for getting someone patched up instead of easy mid fight heath. If a person has been damaged in the past 3-5 seconds, make the healing rate slower, kind of like how Medics Medi-gun works in TF2, or make is an energy beam like line that you have to track your teamates with, or BOTH that you can change between 9:52 - Sometimes, I feel restricted on my Heavy choices too ;) 12:32 - I completely agree, I think that light has the most manageable and balanced kit of the other 2 builds. I think it’s because his build-specific gadgets aren’t too impactful enough to just be better than its other options. That’s where the game should be IMO, where you can just look at your options, and say “Hey! I want to use gas grenade instead of Done shield today because, I feel like playing a more aggressive defensive role today instead of a passive one!” Appoh, you really have the most tame opinions to express here. I think you are very right in the fact that Medium and Heavy need to be more diverse for the sake of diversity! That point you said about seeing someone off the meta build and being a free kill, I’ve seen this a TON as an MGL32 main. It’s crazy how easy it is to poke your head, or shoot in a certain direction to get someone’s attention, next thing you know they are chasing you down the stairs into 2 Pyro mines and a grenade or 2. People also doubt Embark too much due to their bad dev PTSD, but they really need to put their trust in these guys. I have personally never felt more alive in gaming with this game, and that was the #1 theme everyone always expressed when this first dropped fully in December! I am absolutely ecstatic about Season 4 and what it will bring, and I hope you guys are too. ❤

[@Appoh]

well no i mean stat wise LH1 is currently the worst it has ever been, you can look at any other patch of the game where the lh1 was in the game and it was stronger, they lowered the rpm this season with the higher dmg, then nerfed the dps putting it at 280rpm where it was always 300 before, this is why xp54 is the best choice on light now

[@Andrewstown]

@@AppohHmm, I didn’t realize in the pool of changes that LH1 got a slower RPM. I personally didn’t use it much before the recoil change. I’d say if the XP-54 gets a range change, we might see it more, but I still see it sometimes. It’s still very fun to use

[@Appoh]

@@Andrewstown xp54 range nerf only further pushes our close range meta, I'd rather we just get range buffs on everything, without recon in the game range meta wont be as toxic

[@Andrewstown]

@@Appoh Yea, maybe the vision is a bit skewed right now about stuff not being as good at range, I can agree to that. Up with everything we go!

[@Weary01]

I miss the old APS turret. While i understand nerfing it to have a health bar, its not the sanctuary it use to be, i think it should be buffed to consume more projectiles than it does, but maybe have a time limit to how long it lasts

[@tinygaru]

Exactly what i thot. Aps should be " no more throwable in area in 5-10 second". Not limit like this

[@Fiendir]

While I get that they wanna stay away from Battlefield 2042, the change to the APS one of the "operators" can put down was good imo. It basically has an idle/timed active/recharging state. I'd be ok with The Finals APS basically being only idle/timed active and then you have to place another one after recharge. Make it impactful, but not broken.

[@kadekeqw23]

Appoh I hope you read this. Just wanna say you are my fav content creator on finals and thanks for all ur hard work and effort in making videos. As well as ur reasonable takes in the discord server. I really enjoyed this video, in fact it’s my favourite one of yours since it’s a fascinating look back at the game. I still firmly believe the removal of nukes took way too long and it resulted in many players quitting. The dash nerf was also wholly unjustified as nobody was complaining about it until the throwing knives buff. There’s a lot of great things embark has done such as removing recon sense, nuking nukes, etc. But there are some glaring issues like RPG, throwing knives, and the complete guttering of Heavy LMGs. Anyways, I’m excited for s4, it’s the last chance for redemption to me for finals as s3 has been a disaster. I’m speaking as an OB player.

[@SomniaCE]

Getting this out there before watching but I can say as someone who started playing in April that the game feels about the best it ever has. Classes still have things that feel absurdly powerful but every class feels viable and multiple ways of playing each class feel valid even if there is still obviously a meta/optimal way of doing things. I'm very excited to watch this and hear about how the game has changed since before I started playing and what your thoughts are. You tend to be someone who really echoes my sentiments on the game but in a far more educated and reasonable way than I ever could lol

[@SomniaCE]

I definitely agree that the heavy guns feel overnerfed especially on controller. Recoil is already inconsistent to control with analog sticks but my friends who play on controller just don't play heavy despite formerly maining the class because the guns just feel that shit outside of the SA12

[@realmaximusfps]

If they nerf the XP54 instead of actually making the 93R, M11 better, i'll be quite dissapointed. Alot of people are complaining about how it's really easy to beam people with it, but truthfully without the XP54, light would probably be the worst class, and I hope Embark doesn't once again take advice from their discord with this.

[@Killjoy.Z]

It can still retain the same insane DPS but the damage range has it competing with AK beams which just seems weird. They should reduce horizontal recoil for M11 and give 93r a clean red dot optic.

[@christopherrivera9299]

It needs a damage fall off nerf cause it shouldn't be destroying people in long range

[@sSteppingStones]

literally, without XP light would be cooked

[@sSteppingStones]

@@christopherrivera9299 Long or close range is where light is supposed to be played. Its a class that takes off angles and punishes players out in the open. The XP is fine as it is

[@christopherrivera9299]

@sSteppingStones a sub machine gun should not be out playing snipers dude. XP getting nerf from bullet drop off will not mean light will be cook.

[@phatandlazycow9284]

You touched on the heal beam. I do want to note that the nerf increasing the heat buildup has made tracking overheat extremely important, and gotten the beam to a much better spot than when it could nearly unlimited heal from around corners

[@chrisux444]

It is a good day when you see Appoh's new video essay in your feed. Keep up the awesome work!!!!

[@jaydendupisanie5209]

A completely underated strat is 3 meduim turrets and mines only. Rush cashout before deposit and setup. Although it sounds cheesy and campy, the fact that it has flown under the radar as a good team comp is crazy. It of course has weaknesses like sledge and destruction in certain cases, and thus making it slightly balanced, but damn is it still wild that no one is going for this. Won most of my emerald grind this way and I hope it puts into perspective the power of camp ( which honsetly shouldn't be the way the finals is played... but it works)

[@Dustygoodz]

Its funny you bring up that if you dont run a meta class your consider a troll. I have so many people thatll talk crap or leave because I main Medium Class Dual blade, demat, gas mine, goo, explo mine and half the time I do significantly better than them or winning that match with new randoms but I do hope they slightly buff the dual blades!

[@josephvalentine4820]

YES THEY DO!!!! Nerfing makes the game feel less fun. We need more buffs than nerfs

[@jeldraws3854]

I don't agree, getting oneshot by stuff that you could not even see (from invis or across the map) is not fun

[@mtd_epic7759]

@@jeldraws3854 See but thats the thing, we aren't talking about the classes that can do things from across the map like that. Its medium and heavy mostly. Since Light is the most flexible rn

[@jeldraws3854]

@@mtd_epic7759 i just mean we should not just blindly buff weak stuff because there is a potential of breaking the balance in other areas than intended

[@mtd_epic7759]

@@jeldraws3854 We still need buffs though lol, just because we ask for buffs doesnt mean we need op instakill everything or this ability becomes busted

[@jeldraws3854]

@@mtd_epic7759 I agree, let's buff the weakest stuff and nerf the broken op stuff to a point everything is in balance and harmony

[@Gameticksgg]

The ttk getting slower is actually a huge problem, recently I asked one of my friends why they dont play the finals that often and he replied that the ttk is too long. The problem is if the ttk goes back to how it was in season 1 then it feels too short for lights

[@BrianTruce]

The only nerf I can get behind is an Appoh nerf

[@AlejandroGarcia-rv1jr]

The main issue with this game is that heals and shields are just way too strong and will be as long as thats a semi viable playstyle for casuals. The easiest thing to do right now might be something like giving the rpg a damage nerf but cdr buff, so its strictly destruction and its no longer the "im losing a duel time to win it" button.

[@Fiendir]

I've wanted to see this on the RPG for the longest time tbh. Make it the bunker buster with a bigger radius and destructive power, but less player damage. I'm so tired of always having to run it on all heavy builds and initiating every fight with it or just feel suboptimal lol. Put some damage back into the guns instead!

[@GloGangPromoterr]

No that would make the game ass then yall just want them to keep taking the fun anyway that’s why I got into the finals in the first place because I had fun doing different shit I wish the rpg would become just an destruction weapon I’ll quite the finals so fast it’s a fucking RPG for crying out loud & shields not even strong no more it got so many nerfs I hardly see ppl using them anymore

[@GloGangPromoterr]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@Fiendir that’s a you problem then you don’t have to initiate with an rpg every time & running a heavy without an rpg is INSANE

[@prismer7655]

Would love to see more bow play! It's awesome

[@SukixChaos]

i definitely feel the game is at a better balance but the evasive dash nerf hurt a lot and in my opinion wasn’t needed. as much as i hated it the nuke nerf also sucked maybe the damage could’ve been reduced while allowing the aoe building damage to stay. i remember being in a HLH format and we could completely demo a building with a couple nukes. i think they should bring back nukes as a way to get more damage to the map it’s so fun to have it randomly break. for medium i want the revolver to be reworked it feels like what i aim at isn’t even where the bullet is going.

[@TwinkleTutsies]

i havent even watched the video yet but omg thank you for making this video, legend!!!

[@SomeGuy-qd3li]

I was very on the fence about sanguine saying that heal beam and defib is too op, because honestly, I think they're so fun because of how op they are. But now looking at the meta, I completely agree, too many things are balanced around heal beam and defib, and ttk is always balanced around that as well. I still wish there was a way to nerf heal beam and defib without it feeling like crap, or buff the other gadgets in a way that makes them much more viable and smarter pick in situations

[@whitewhalo]

Daaamn - I like, watch 1 min and already shocked, gonna watch till end! Even then I stopped playing few weeks ago, you videos are must to see. Thx!!

[@Patrick_Nguyen]

When I throw my mesh shield down to put the key in, it’s already gone by the time I pick up the key again…

[@edmundfung]

As an average skill casual console player, the longish TTKs are already even longer than MnK lobbies by default at launch. Embark’s fiddling with recoil and now straight damage nerfs has made the guns feel awful, the increased TTK also makes getting third partied feel even worse. Lastly, their approach to recoil actually only serves to give XIM and Cronus cheaters an even bigger advantage.

[@JuiceManJ91]

Respect man, appreciate the hard work!

[@sleepymushroom9403]

This was a very informative look into the game i love at the moment, though you're thoughts on the medium does match up with my views on the class, the medium is more like a glass cannon at the moment, very consistent damage with it's weapona but mostly good for it's healing; even with the way i play, I'm mostly just forced into support don't get me wrong it's fun but it's kinda what i have to do

[@realfreshvideos1501]

Thanks for the hard work

[@inflatablefish921]

nerfs are needed if something doesn't allow for meaningful counterplay. in all other cases balance can most often be approached from the angle of buffing the counters instead of nerfing the sources.

[@skom555]

Yes or introducing counters. As a "nerf" to defib, why dont we allow glitch nades and data reshaper to cancel defib in progress? Defib would still be strong, but there would be some more risk reward going on with it.

[@Fiendir]

​@@skom555I was thinking the exact same thing during the gameplay, even saw a glitch land right on the defib hologram and went "Wait... Why doesn't that kind of timing reward you with denying the rez??"

[@GloGangPromoterr]

⁠​⁠@@skom555 don’t yk it only take 1 maybe 2 seconds to defib a player right ? lol yall wouldn’t have to to throw a glitch Nade in time & thats why we have glitch traps now just put them on the trophy after a kill I died a multiple times from enemies doing that it threw me off

[@skom555]

​@@GloGangPromoterr Yes im aware it would be difficult with glitch nades to do. But I think that would just make it more hype. Its in incredibly impactful play if done well, and you mostly wouldn't do it on reaction but on anticipation. Reshaper would be possible on reaction tho since it's instant. And I like the glitch mines as they are now. Strong but very useful. I like the aspect of throwing them on statues to prevent defibs.

[@_MintArcade]

What embark managed to achieve through out the months is just changing the game from "silly and fun" to "serious and unfun".

[@GloGangPromoterr]

Fr that’s what made me like the finals it was hella fun could literally do anything now it’s hardly fun & sweaty most of the times

[@Mrshmeans]

I bet they will nerf xp 54 in s4

[@Mrshmeans]

Also I think we could all agree s2 Lh1 was perfect. At one point it was considered an equal to the xp54 before barricade meta.

[@RyanHarnerMCF]

If they nerf the xp-54 I will actually just quit the game

[@GaaraFPS]

They need to nerf the xp54 add more recoil and add fall off damage as well as the model

[@Mrshmeans]

@@GaaraFPS there is no need to nerf the xp, they just need to buff the other ranged light weapons. Xp really isn't that opressive rn. It's just the only good pick for high up. You can use the majority of the light weapons in Casual games and even wt and still get just as many kills. All that will happen if u nerf the xp is no one will use light in ranked cashout once again.

[@GustavoFavareto]

Only 30 bullets is already enough. Can’t kill more than 1 medium without reloading. If you miss a few shots, not even 1 medium.

[@Sizyphus]

This is a great video. We need more buffs to things that don’t see the light of day in medium-upper level gameplay. There aren’t many weapons in this game, it shouldn’t be too hard but needs to happen. Playing two weapons on each class is horrible. And things like the model that have felt good since the beginning are now seen as OP and people complain because most weapons are inferior. I pray to god they don’t gut that weapon and make everything feel like shit. I understand the balancing around each classes niche but they take it a little too far. And they also messed up making some changes to balance for TA. Healing is sort of its own thing that will be hard to balance. I think the best way is to make the heal beam heal a little less but retain its ability to heal mid fight. This is fair because you have to take a whole teammate out of the fight in order to operate it. Then they need to add some other healing abilities, like an aoe nade for example, that don’t stack and heal out of combat so that heal beam isn’t so necessary. Last thing is I think this game would thrive better in a 5 team format just due to the fact that a 3 person team with 3 classes means that certain classes will always be overshadowed and certain abilities (heal, shield) will always fit the teams “roles” so well. With 5 people to a team you have room for more niche roles and don’t have to focus on grouped up survivability. Great video, hope they start buffing the awesome weapons that need love.

[@questions5386]

It's refreshing to see a game that doesn't have a power creep issue. I prefer this tbh. I think they could change the defib to be a specialization instead of a gadget to balance it. Then it opens a slot for medium to use fun gadgets and gives a choice of heal sustain vs rez

[@mariusiurea]

My ideal changes to the game would be: Nerf heal beam so that healing isn't as effective when your target is getting hit. Nerf defib (by making it a specialisation, if needed you can actually make it be the instant revive from season 1 to be in line with other specs) Buff something on Medium to compensate for these nerfs (maybe new gadget, or just buff the guns slightly) Nerf RPG, so that every fight doesn't have to start with Jump Pad + Double RPG. Nerf the damage of Charge and Slam, but make it more consistent. Sometimes I can kill a heavy from full hp with CnS, sometimes I can't get more than 1 tick of damage off. Buff the damage of the Heavy machine guns (I feel like the recoil is in a good spot. Machine guns shouldn't feel great at range, they should be hard to control, and shouldn't be able to duel ARs and snipers at range). Undo the Invis, Dash, Stun Gun, Throwing Knives and LH1 nerfs, undo the glitch grenade duration nerf. I think that taking away some power from the gadgets of the strongest classes, and putting more power into the guns would make the game feel a lot more fair all around.

[@slavikbraun4788]

The stuff done to the lh1 is funny and ridiculous at the same time

[@kevinfortsch]

Nerf is a strong word. I'd say "a modest attempt at balancing" Definitely agree on giving things a buff instead of a nerf.

[@JusAFarmer]

Any game with a meta, deserves buffs to keep the meta constantly shifting and fresh😊

[@CommandoBlack123]

Not everyone plays a game 24/7. The meta changes depending on what elo you are at sometimes. Having a good meta is all that matters. A rapidly changing meta from patch notes makes the game unapproachable to people who dont play everyday.

[@chid2196]

Crazy to me that the riotshield is actually kinda decent now, especially in these sustained fights.

[@gamecubebro]

I actually was planning to make a list or video of individually talking about a lot of weapons and tools to give buff and rework ideas. The reason I am holding back a little is that I'm a very mediocre player. I didn't want to really receive backlash but I'll try my best with it. One example I was curious about was if the healing beam provided temporary health in blue? Meaning that you'd heal your teammates in a fight but after you stop healing, their healed health will tick down to it's original health. Almost being like a painkiller in fights than a full reheal to be back in the fight?

[@thedofflin]

All I want for christmas is for embark to give the riot shield some love and attention.

[@nahCyzar0520]

I have the feeling that healing beam needs a rework so that you have to really think about using it. Possibly where it heals a set amount instantly but it would be a charge system like evasive dash and you can no longer constantly heal someone. The heals I would say ~50 hp and you would have 3-4 charges. This also means it takes 3-4 charges to heal heavy from low health.

[@jericodawsonmarcos7529]

gutting dash just made sword dash miserable to use since its still easy to get in but nigh impossible get out of the fight

[@Killjoy.Z]

Sword dash is the top meta choice for Light right under MP5, at least for the top players. I agree though that the Dash nerf was unnecessary and just made map traversal worse.

[@sparquisdesade]

Honestly might be a tad bit harder to pull off but it almost feels like grapple sword is better.

[@sparquisdesade]

@@Killjoy.Z I think light an medium melee should get a small buff, but rather than go the boring route of damage changes you should change it so killing blows on light with a melee weapon refreshes 25% of your current cooldowns and medium landing kills should restore a portion of health an MAYBE a small speed boost, like very small.

[@inflatablefish921]

sword is all but neutered by the sole existence of glitch traps

[@kevinquintana2647]

I've heard people asking for the model 87 to be nerfed and honestly I don't see why. DPS wise its less than the AK and because it fires so slow and has such a small magazine missing even 1 shot really hurts. Granted it may be easier to land your max ttk with it over the AK since you need only land 2 full shots to drop a medium and its got a pretty tight pellet spread vs the AKs recoil and your movement possibly causing them to miss a couple shots. But then again auto weapons are more forgiving dps wise since it fires so fast missing 1 or 2 shots is not a big deal, if the 87 is off by even a hair then it needs a third shot and that can cost the fight. It looks balanced to me, am I wrong?

[@duke9621]

I think heavy specializations are pretty balanced and they really are “specializations” charge and slam has good damage and a consistent stall. winch has good and consistent cashout manipulation and can solo out players. mesh shield has good protection for the whole team and really incentivizes teamwork. goo Is great for defenses movement and can push cashes a little less effectively than winch also it has good lock for stalling. (ngl goo gun can be one of the best heavy specializations, you just have to be creative and think harder)

[@SanguineNightsTV]

I appreciate the shoutout! But I couldn't agree more on the vid.

[@CalamityShreds]

You will never prove me wrong that the Evasive Dash nerf and APS nerf was just a horrible decision. Keep on nerfing exactly like that and the meta will only grow staler and staler. It's been known throughout the history of PvP. Also excellent job at recording the nerfs and buffs throughout the history of FINALS.

[@sparquisdesade]

I'm much more of an advocate for adding skill ceiling checks to abilities rather than jus nerfing their duration most of times. Like I said in a comment up top, I think a great compromise for lights would be giving them a passive that reduces the refresh on their cooldowns when landing a killing blow with melee weapons. Could even work this refresh percentage into a stat that changes depending on the specialization.

[@figgens123]

I mained LH1 in S1 and it was in a perfect state with clear weaknesses. Then they overbuffed the piss out of it and left it in a worst state than what it was before the buff. Give me that nasty vertical recoil and fast fire rate.

[@julio1148]

When did evasive dash get a nerf? I havent felt it

[@Zizou19989]

⁠@@julio1148it got its charge time lowered nothing crazy. Just stops bad players from spamming the dash constantly

[@julio1148]

@@Zizou19989 thats what I thought, didnt even feel it

[@a_g_bross2481]

Appoh didn't talk about Googun 😢 But said sledge is viable? Sledges are FREE unless they have winch

[@Appoh]

sledge only viable because of winch, we all know that, goo gun still good but other specs on heavy are kinda cracked lol

[@a_g_bross2481]

@@Appoh I've evolved with my goosledge! I'll make you eat those words on our run back

[@MonkeyDLuffy-lp4qz]

It's much less about the number of nerfs/buffs and much more about what is being nerfed/buffed. I think the cadence they've been going at is pretty healthy actually, avoiding too much power creep is good. However, I think they need to focus more on changing things more towards fun mechanics, for example: a lot of the weapon nerfs have been recoil nerfs, which makes the guns less fun to use, and don't really end up being super impactful at the higher end of things. The way they handled throwing knives has made them less fun to use, and have less damage potential than before, which is frustrating in itself. They still refuse to gut heal beam and defib which means the fun medium playstyles are virtually non-existent. I think if they want to buff things up a little, it should be the recoils of certain guns. I also think it would be a good idea for them to give all guns and valorant-style ADS which uses your crossair instead of a dumb chunky iron-sight. Or an old school zoom when right clicking instead of ads

[@wrnr-vo7jm]

IMO almost every nerf to the shields are also a nerf for the light class.

[@rival-slays]

Light: - Nerf mp5 range drop off significantly - Revert LH1 to its pre broken state - Buff 93r - Remove sniper from TA and Powershift, it completely ruins those modes - Nerf sonar to not go through walls or make it just one scan or reduce it to 1 use (any of these 3) - Limit invisibility to a single use per round in TA - Fix light footstep audio so I can actually hear it consistently Medium - Buff FCAR recoil to be normal, change damage and mag size to what it was before the last nerf. - Buff Demat to have more consistent opening shape. Also either add one more charge or make closing an opening not cost a charge. Also make the opening go straight through whatever is on the other side so I’m not opening up to be blocked by a slot machine. - Nerf defib so cooldowns are shared across the team so a team can’t go from 1 person to 3 instantly. - Nerf heal beam so 2 beams can’t stack the heal rate - Buff revolver so it doesn’t feel horrible to use - Medium is still owed its recon sense back - Remove turret from TA Heavy - Nerf RPG out of existence just like C4. Make it destruction focused with a huge environment damage but little player damage (50-75) - Nerf charge to do half the player damage and more destruction - Revert the last LMG nerfs Not class specific - Buff smokes to be much larger and denser - Remove mines from TA - Buff ADS strafe speeds for M and H - Revert the sliding into jump pad nerfs - increase slide speed - improve footstep audio directionality There I fixed your game Embark, no need to pay me.

[@night_wolf9734]

They definitely don't need to cuz some these changes are terrible.

[@Cluxiu]

i hate movement nerfs.

[@jamesfischer8667]

Giving the light and medium map destruction is a bad move imo. That used to be what the heavy was for but combining that with all the strong nerfs heavy has gotten they don't have the role they used to have which I think is a bummer. Also I think the only reason the winch got nerfed was because the heavies have now been forced to be more close range so of course they're all going to pick the winch

[@Fixer48]

They ruined my 2 favorite guns the lewis gun and the fcar and they also ruined c4 when they took the second one away. Why couldnt they just buff guns that were underused or doing bad to make them more viable and give them an advantage

[@huxsTF]

longer ttk (to a degree) is a good thing because it puts an emphasis on teamplay

[@Appoh]

to a degree, it just also creates a more frustrating experience for new players who get used to certain ttks and it then feels like their weapons are weaker every time they play

[@GloGangPromoterr]

No it’s not good try killing somebody with the M60 or Lewis it’s literally like a peashooter now lol I don’t play with guns on heavy anymore besides the Sa12 I never used flamethrower & sledgehammer but here I am

[@huxsTF]

@@GloGangPromoterr yeah they were over nerfed. Heavy weapons should be strong up close and weak from range. But something like the model is too strong. This game needs buffs and nerfs. But since launch has mostly needed nerfs

[@IAmSofaCouch]

A big reason why i stopped playing. Is the constant recoil changes on weapons. I feel like there really is no reason for the recoil to be so high on certain weapons. It just makes the game feel worse and it makes me want to stick to only one weapon because i know how to control its recoil.

[@delaschado8196]

I do believe that this kind of game that push for creativity needs CHANGES, with a few nerfs and buffs for things that are out of the chart. When you keep changing things the game feels fresh, and since no one knows what is the best thing and you have to figure it out, it feels like there's no meta. Yeah, we need buffs and nerfs, but i think the most we need for The Finals are changes. I've said this ad nauseam, but imagine explosives launching players, or the data reshaper transforming you into a prop for a few secs, or the heal beam being something you have to aim like the character from overwatch, the one with the purple and yellow ray. i'm just giving a few examples right here, because I've think in a lot of stuff, and\ I don't even know if this will happen but I like to imagine something like this happening in The Finals, changing every season so it feels fresh every few months.

[@Fiendir]

Bro... Giving data reshape an alt fire that uses up both charges to turn you into prop hunt for a moment?? Pair that with dematerialiser and you could give people PDSD of getting revolver neckshot by what just looked like an office chair hahah

[@delaschado8196]

@@Fiendir Hahahahaha I imagine myself playing with my friends while defending the cashout: THEY ARE COMING, Quickly, transform into something; and transforming into a freaking chair in the most obvious spot near to the cashout

[@gmoney9332]

Appoh: 93R is the worst weapon in the game Riot Shield: do I not even exist?

[@Tallsilvr_twitch]

I feel like heal beam should work like how lifeline drone works on apex, it only heals you when you not take damage, that would definitely take it out the meta but it’d still be useful Also, id love to see the m60 to back to how it was, i like it more than the Lewis, it don’t feel like a workout controlling the recoil

[@boldisordorin9010]

Winch claw: Cooldown: 12 -> 14 Damage: 15 -> 5 Range: 20 -> 12

[@paskyy9527]

used to love the lewis gun, but now heavy is completely restricted to close range (flame, sledge, sa12).Spear is a btec sledge so its pointless, and M60 + LG just been nerfed so that they arent viable, I love winch & sledge, im really good at it. But there is no versatility in the class anymore. KS 23 is such a hit or miss gun, literally, so it lacks consistency there. In fact the whole class does, youll either see a heavy with 12 kills, or with 3 kills, it just feels so inconsistent.

[@SerpyDerp]

They like to buff/nerf the wrong things and cater toward casual

[@P0Omah]

Casual is also in the worst state it's ever been been though.

[@SerpyDerp]

@@P0Omah that’s because they catered to casual

[@davisbakker4904]

Idk man all of the niche non meta weapons and abilities largely still suck even in low elo

[@Presgamegaming]

Season 4 of the finals will fix the weapons buffs and nerfs problem

[@bbt0101]

You have REALLY good points. But if you look at it another way, melee Heavies were used to be called trolls, now they're strong AF. Mediums who didn't use FCAR were called trolls, now every weapon (except melee and the GL) is a toss up on which is the best. Lights, well, they're still pretty useless tbh 😂 the nerfs they made later in season 3 really hit the class hard so meh. I guess the point is, the changes actually shook up the META a bit weapon-wise. Whether that's a good thing or not is a whole other topic though

[@GaaraFPS]

Babe wake up!! Appoh dropped another banger!!

[@halenlazar9259]

I'd like to see FCAR stability come back to what is was after the damage nerf, model range decrease, revert M60 damage nerf and lewis gun stability. I flex play all classes and I hate that heavy feels like dog shit now without my M60.

[@Handsx]

During your gameplay I noticed glitch bomb doesn't effect the teleporter for light. It definitely should remove the portal it hits.

[@Appoh]

it does remove portals but glitch nades have been buggy for a long time now and dont always work

[@Handsx]

@@Appoh oh interesting I was wondering. I've noticed this game has issues with explosions and the geometry blocking blast radius in very odd spots. Maybe that's what is going on.

[@Appoh]

@@Handsx potentially, game can be a little funky

[@Handsx]

I just want my mgl to consistently do damage when it blows up next to people 😭

[@Appoh]

@@Handsx fair

[@dyreascension]

Worst nerf for heavy is Lewis gun and dome shield.

[@lukasdontknow7194]

I think that a simple change would solve many problems. Allow players to change loadout after death in WT.

[@dingbatfpv]

CL-40 needs a buff, they might as well have removed it from the game :/ Also, I'd like to see a beam weapon like the LG from quake, or Zarya's primary from Overwatch

[@bobbill8881]

Played against you recently. You’re really good.

[@david_ce]

Please more videos appoh, especially with this skin and the bow and arrow

[@Maximusls2400]

yes.... why? because this season specifically has been catered to the whim of light players.

[@OmniscientPC]

I think in season 4 I want a ton of new additions to gear, weapons, specs, etc. then for the rest of the season they should make aggressive tweaks. So by season 5 they can really see how the game has evolved and diversified.

[@johnsmith12421]

I think Light and Medium have a well balanced roster of weapons (except katanas which are lame and 93R which kinda stinks but a small damage buff would fix that). Heavy has been tuned in such a way that all automatic weapons (not including SA1216) are weak to define the class as a QCQ powerhouse that needs to be skirted around or chip damaged before engaging. I used to main Lewis Gun but c'est la vie; I actually think the change is a positive one and makes sense from an overall balancing perspective. People are constantly complaining about 'staleness' in every game. I've seen it so many times now. Personally I like the way the game plays - and so do you! Hence why you play it. Every game that caves in to the 'need a major change to gameplay every month' mentality ends up becoming a shitfest IMO and losing its core identity, ie the reason you enjoyed it to start off with.

[@derpyflyinbacon176]

Heavy gets alot of nerfs even with his worst weapons, my fav weapon (MGL) wich was already considered horrible is now unusable since they made the explosive radius diferent for everything

[@BigGuyBurrito]

It doesn't help we have two featured ranked modes that Embark is more than likely having dilemmas with

[@GloGangPromoterr]

WT Is Not A Rank Mode Tho Only TA Is

[@deegee6062]

I would be interested to see what would happen if they just removed heal and defib from medium, because I really like the FCAR and the 1887, but a lot of the time I don't want to play support, I like the jump pad and the zipline, but if I could then have mines or frags or goo as a third option then run demat it becomes a totally different playstyle! but in the current state of balance, doing that in ranked is just worse than running heal and defib, it really leads to what has made season 3 feel so stale by the end.

[@GloGangPromoterr]

I must be the only off meta player that succeeds because I disagree I always play off meta especially in rank & im emerald 3 so im not a casual the meta kinda overrated to me I like to mix up my loadout ik it sound crazy but it worked for me all this time I’ll run heal beem without defib so I can have more damage in my arsenal or I’ll run turret with defib don’t knock it till you try it 🤷🏽‍♂️

[@RockhoundBlack]

Love a great numbers video!

[@moothu_]

the meta just has to be switched up. it feels like the same guns and same comps have been meta for the whole lifespan of the game

[@runnin_myles8098]

Besides v9s:(

[@Zlittlepenguin]

I dunno I felt that way from seasons 1-2 but right now we’re in the shotgun meta which has never been a thing before.

[@moothu_]

@@Zlittlepenguin sa1216 has been heavy’s best weapons for 2 seasons, xp54 has been light’s best weapon for 2 seasons, and the assault rifles have been great-good for the same time although the model has gotten relatively better bc of assault rifle nerfs

[@Zlittlepenguin]

@@moothu_ I know what you’re saying about heavy, but people didn’t use the sa as often as they do now. The Lewis gun was the meta for heavy in season 2. And the fcar was the meta for medium, but nobody really uses the fcar anymore. You’re right about the xp though, that’s pretty much been the best light weapon the whole time.

[@little_error295]

@@Zlittlepenguinlol what sa been the best gun in the game since the beta it used to be even more ridiculous when you could animation cancel the chambering and shoot crazy fast

[@Zalown]

I've said it before, but im very hesitant to suggest nerfs, but I'd like to see the models range get a little nerfed and pretty much everything else should be buffed a little (excluding some obvious things that dont need it) id love for the bows head shot multipler to be increased but im deeply afraid theyre going to give it the ks treatment where they try to make it easier to use and in doing so make it objectively worse

[@jethro9919]

i legit feel like the issue is how the balance is between all the weapons, its so dull and boring, there's no life to it and not much option to choose really unless you are like a light player. medium's 3 AR's just function the same with really small differences like a scope on the FCAR compare to AKM high mag or the FAMAS high burst recoil damage. i miss the old style of the FCAR battle rifle where it legit hits like a truck, this was its role. sure it was a bit overtuned but if they just tune the damage and rate of fire slightly down it be perfectly fine but they instead rework it to be just... an AKM with a scope with less bullets? with its damage and rate of fire its almost the same as the AKM. with no spice to the weapon balance, no weapons that are like, yeah they are quite strong, there's no interest. its even worst with each time they add new weapons each season they are just so unbelievably underwhelming, there's no point of using them really, both from a competitive and a fun perspective. sure you can learn to use the KS-23, master it and understand its functions but why would you really when you can just use the SA1216 or hammer or whatever else is in the kit? why use light's bow where you can just use the LH1 which is a lot more versatile or the SR-84 where you can just aim and shoot straight on since its a hitscan that does more damage from some reason then the projectile bow weapon? there's no real reward you get with it aside from it being "satisfying" while you can do even more with other said weapons. not to mention weapons that are even so much more horrible like light's 93R with its lacking damage, the medium's dual blades with the reflect function that is really inconsistent, heavy's spear which is for the most part a downgrade compare to the hammer, not to mention the god awful rightclick/third person hits that just dont register half the time, weapons that constantly put you in some massive downsides compare to other contestants. the weapon balance is god boring and lacks life to eat and so far unfortunately, each season did not have any interesting weapons to at least, spice up the balance and add life to it, instead just fading really quick in the corner, i really really REALLY hope they gonna add actual functional weapons in season 4 that are usable and GOOD, to finally have something to throw the balance in a shake, and i dont mean something so overpowered, everyone has to use it, i mean some good ass weapons you can have massive fun with, both casually and competitively.

[@jordonwest6892]

Buff the bow!!! They need to reward us for our headshots more Appoh!

[@jamarilittlejohn6345]

This isn’t related to the video but I just noticed that when you where the hat from smoking gun event your character like turns grey. has this always been the case or could this be hit at something ?

[@Appoh]

always been that way

[@Aupathix]

Light is definitely the most broken and strong class.

[@TheRealRhino]

I worry that over time the ttk is slowly going down, making fights more drawn out than they used to be. I find it annoying and wish it was faster but I get that some enjoy the very long ttk in this game

[@THEEJONESY]

the finals has great balance

[@porafriken]

So many changes over 3 seasons but the weapon meta largely stays the same. That is one area i feel needs improvement.

[@michaelvoehl206]

Embark’s balance decisions are unfun and near sighted. They need to focus on making weapons feel like fun guns. Crazy recoil and peashooters is what they made.

[@StinkyMick99]

I liked the Nuke removal but why did they have to remove one of heavy’s c4’s? 😭 They can make it so the c4 is only/mostly structure damage. This is what annoyed tf out of me cause

[@Appoh]

tbf high elo players always use c4 still so they did balance it well, it still has some insane potential but its not always about killing or getting damage its about the utility and objective play that makes it so strong

[@Fiendir]

They removed nukes but C4 can still be used to "lace" frag mines for some reason, giving one enough damage to one-shot both lights and mediums. Having TWO one-shot mines breaks basically every team fight, so my guess is reducing it to 1 C4 is the emergency fix for that

[@basicwizard675]

The medium build shotgun are too strong. They need a distance dmg nerf . The shotgun can shoot fast and does a lot of damage and has good range

[@figgens123]

I’d rather have all things very impactful in certain scenarios rather than a blander slate with weapons not standing out from each other.

[@TheBigdan217]

IDC how much I invest in a game, if it nerfs fun, I leave, I left