Does This Improve MTB Suspension Performance?

[@vitalmtb]

Charlie goes deeper in his article on Vital - www.vitalmtb.com/features/can-pedal-kickback-denier-see-light

[@trillbill9378]

Really curious about the e13 sidekick hub! Also really like Charlie as a tester/presenter and thought his feedback in the enduro bike test was insightful. Cheers Vital

[@charliesponsel5091]

Thank you!

[@evanblackwell3920]

We need more Robot! Another interesting thing to test out would be a hub like the Onyx Vesper, which has super high engagement, but springs and a clutch rather than pawls. Maybe it was just in my head because that hub is silent, but it felt like it transmitted less noise/feedback than a traditional hub. It wasn’t a huge difference, maybe akin to an O Chain at the lowest float setting, but I think there was some difference.

[@treyblakeandrew]

I’ve definitely experience a “soft” sensation when the onyx hub engages. It definitely feels like it offers some damping. And the fact that your hub is essentially always engaged means there’s less distance for your chain to bounce around, so it has lower peak velocity. All that could translate to a smoother rider

[@DanielACroft]

I have an onyx vesper and bought it because the sprague (sp?) clutch factor makes it silent when I’m coasting. I think I’m in the minority wanting a silent hub. The other big factor is 0-ish engagement lag while I’m pedalling. Pros and cons of course but technical uphill I get no lag, downhill I do get a bunch of kickback. I had been thinking about the O-chain as a way to build in some kickback damping while maintaining the silent hub but it’s just super expensive so…

[@peterdhaile]

This was great, love Charlie’s humor and humility!

[@hallstewart]

its tension in the section of chain between the top of the cassette and the top of the chain ring that resists rearward extension of the suspension. when not braking, the cassette rotates forward as the rear centre lengthens, but it can't if braking and resists the suspension

[@davetscantech]

Put an O Chain on my Tazer and definitely noticed a difference, I used to think I was bottoming out my shock, once I put the O Chain on my bike in didn’t feel like the shock was bottoming anymore

[@michaelcuddihee6754]

why was this so hard to explain by almost everyone else. Charlie breaks it down, nice job.

[@charliesponsel5091]

Thank you, glad you liked it! It was super fun making the video with Spomer.

[@GarthFlint-nc2vj]

Oh, and it is much more interesting to see the amount of flex in the rear wheel on some of those hits. Fascinating. I never realized the extent of the flex.

[@adamhindle9215]

Indeed. The rear wheel has so much flex/movement I'd be checking to see if the rear axle is loose, or the rear swingarm bearings are shot.

[@charliesponsel5091]

@@adamhindle9215 All good. Axle was tight, spokes were at proper tension, and the swingarm bearings were great. That's just flex baby!

[@lsugimoto8361]

Agreed. That lateral flex was much more than I thought

[@lsugimoto8361]

I’m a huge ochain believer and have been riding one for a year. This was a good video to watch. It also made me wonder how much sound feedback makes us think about our bikes and its performance. Like I’m curious if a louder more rattling bike may subconsciously makes us think our suspension may be rougher. Just curious

[@andreano81]

Pedal kick back is very real with high engagement rear hubs. Solution was very easy - to switch to low engagement hubs :-) Much cheaper than o-chain and no problem with fitting DH chain guide.

[@charliesponsel5091]

I think it's a little more complicated than that, but I'd love to do a back-to-back test to find out. In theory, the Ochain is always floating whereas the low engagement freehub is sometimes 12 degrees away from engaging and sometimes 0 degrees away from engaging.

[@MitchEllison]

Remember that kickback is caused by a corresponding timing between an impact and a pawl catching. I would agree that with less degrees of engagement it is less likely to time and line up, but they will still occasionally line up causing kickback.

[@xLordSpicy]

Yea but what if I still want the sound of a hundred angry hornets chasing me

[@MitchEllison]

@@xLordSpicy Haha! Yeah, we all chased high degree hubs for 20 years, eventually it caught up with us..lol. I'm riding a silent hub now and it's the best thing ever. (Tairin)

[@benobiker]

@@charliesponsel5091 Exactly! It is also important which gear you have. A light gear means less POE at 360° on the crank, on the contrary, a heavy gear means more POE at 360° on the crank, i.e. a greater probability of kickback.

[@endurodoctor]

Have realized that after switching my i9 hydra hubs to DT swiss 36 ratchet freehub. Much less pkb, much smoother ride. It gave me no chain feeling ride IMHO. Have tried it in Finale Ligure with my own bike, with the same suspension and same tyres and PSI preasure. Will go with ochain for 100 percent. The only thing is I have heard there is a weight limit using ochain. The rider weight I suppose.

[@khunlongpete]

On our fulsus e-tandem we broke a lot of driving chains. Plates coming loose from the pins. It took me a long time to find out it was pedal kickback related.(going fast(over 20km/h), big compression, braking, wheel lockup, cornering, hard underground, chain growth were factors that played a role). Idon't know if the fact that a tandem has a much higher sprung mass compared to solo bikes plays a role. The fact that on a tandem with the weighth of two riders on the cranks makes it more difficult for the pedals to kick back plays imo also a role in chain breaks. The force was so high that if the chain did not break the bottom bracket moved the excenter. This tensioned the timing chain up so much that sometimes the the timing chain broke or got so tight that I had to take the chainring of.Changing to 3-pawl hubs resulted in not braking any more driving chains. But excenter still moved but less.When I told this people said I had too much imagination. The only one who said can be was Adam Kieran from ZFC. Rulezman was not interested in making an idler for us. Pity occhain does not work with double cranksets.

[@charliesponsel5091]

That's a wild story! Definitely agrees with my test results and experience. But yes, there are a few respects in which tandems increase forces waaaaaay beyond the performance envelope of normal MTB components. Cool that you found a solution but sounds like a pain to sort it out.

[@michaelroy5989]

If I understand correctly. Bike with gearbox and belt drive, some have a chain, won't have pedal kickback? And will certainly be quieter and smoother too. Thank too test it. Some people said pedal kick back not really exist. Other said they are annoyed by that. Good job. I don't know how the wheels handled all those rocks at that speed. But I'm glad for you that it didn't cause any problems.

[@gg4760-k5n]

Another one to test would be to instal an iddler to reduce pedalkick to 0 and compare to ochain. If the iddler does worse than ochain it means that ochain isn't reducing PK but is damping chain slap (my preferred hypothesis). If you get similar results then chain slap isn't the issue and PK is real. Rulezmann made an iddler plate for some Banshee bikes, this could be an option to test on the SC. Most likely it will reduce PK a lot more than needed but that shouldn't be an issue and the product is bolt-on as long as you have ISG tabs.

[@charliesponsel5091]

That would be a great test! Doesn't the pawl-less test from the video make you think the hub/pedal kickback theory has something to do with the Ochain effects, though?

[@gg4760-k5n]

​@@charliesponsel5091yeah I rewatched the video and removing the pawls is about the same indeed. While watching another idea that came to mind is using a lower chain guide to reduce/cancel lower chain growth as much as possible. With the STFU on the upper chain that could be a good way to isolate PK from chain slap as much as possible. Actually if the lower chain guide allows for near 0 chain growth, using STFU (or a DIY equivalent) on the bottom chain could be an option to isolate PK and Chainslap even more.

[@chriscalomino5229]

Great video and trail choice. Question I have is what's better o chain and say hydra hubs or lower engagement hub and regular chain ring for dh For enduro pedal/dh trails, what's best for kickback but still putting power down in flatter sections? Definitely a interesting topic I hope spawns more videos and testing. Love this deep dive stuff

[@charliesponsel5091]

Great question and glad you liked the vid! Trail was sick indeed. For me if I'm downhill racing, I'd go with an Ochain and higher engagement hubs. I say "higher engagement" because I don't need an instantaneous hub but I'd rather not have a low engagement hub pared with an Ochain

[@chriscalomino5229]

@charliesponsel5091 makes sense why make a low engagement hub less engaging. Kinda sounds like with chain you can have your cake and eat it too with higher engagement. Just adjust how much ochain adjustment you need for the days riding. Thanks for the feedback

[@Alex_Abdullayev]

Pedal kick back is 100% real. Install an ochain and feel the difference but best perceived at 9 degrees (I run 9deg on my turbo levo and 12 deg on my downhill bike and it's NIGHT and DAY difference). Allows you to charge full speed through obstacles and keep your heels down the entire time as the rear of the bike is now so much more composed; also legs don't get nearly as fatigued anymore on DH runs since your quads and hammies aren't always fighting the the pedals. Ochain is a gamechanger for me as a DH rider here in the PNW (WA) but if you ride mellow trails or XC or don't go fast through the chunder It prolly won't make much of a difference.

[@Lou-f]

Nice riding Charlie! Also try loosening the clutch a 1/4 turn and riding down with the bike in 2nd gear, less loose chain bouncing and less pull on the driveline from the chain from the lower gearing. 👍

[@matthewtemplemtb]

Stairsteps is a sick trail! Just did some trail work on it a few weeks ago 👊

[@charliesponsel5091]

Thanks for your hard work!

[@CristianBurr]

Very interesting to hear about the clutch, Ive had an oposit experience. What about gearbox bikes?

[@robertoestivill]

Time to invent a remotely controlled hub that switches engagement on and off.

[@toast69123]

Charlie is great on camera, would like to see more experiments! Spomer- get that man some wheels!

[@pmaui]

Can you guys also test it on high pivot bike? Even it's pointless or stupid but would be cool to see it if they work or not. LOL!

[@BRINKUK]

Best upgrade!! We even run them on the Hardtail!

[@charliesponsel5091]

Do you notice a difference on the hardtail, or was that a joke and I missed it?

[@BRINKUK]

@@charliesponsel5091 Sorry it was a terrible joke...

[@mrln247]

​@@charliesponsel5091 Single speed is nicer than a derailleur whipping around out back. Just got to put up with all the other down sides.

[@jojotherider1977]

Fun to see that Seattle Mariner's hat. Not sure if Charlies is a fan or not, but they're doing their normal thing. Super hot team, only to fizzle out at the end. oh well, more bikes, less spectating.

[@charliesponsel5091]

Go Mariners! Grew up in Portland and lived in Bremerton for 4 years. Been watching the M's self-destruct late in the season for years. I'm choosing to view our brief playoff appearance in 2023 as a gift from the heavens and appreciate that wonderful fleeting memory.

[@alejoc1402]

We need belts or cardans. I hate chains, big cassetes, etc...

[@DandyHippo]

THIS

[@GrifftheDude]

When Shimano came out with 10 speed clutch derailleurs, I remember turning the clutch off made the bike feel loads smoother and shift easier. With the fancy electronic mechs we have now, would be cool to see a clutch that allowed for more initial movement to help free up the suspension from chain forces.

[@charliesponsel5091]

Yeah I remember my old Zee derailleur's clutches being mega tight, and that's what I expected to feel in this test- less bumps with the clutch off. I wonder if the clutches on the new 12-speed derailleurs are different, softer, easier breakaway, etc

[@catg9196]

I just loosen the tension a bit in mine. Enough to get away with it.

[@adamhindle9215]

I always ride with my clutch off. The chain guide stops any dropped chains, and the shifting is much better.

[@BockaufBiken]

„What if that next run blows your mind“ LOL :D

[@rob4608]

My thoughts are high engagement hubs contribute to pedal kickback, along with suspension design. A suspension design with minimal chain growth, well placed main pivot, and a floating brake system is the perfect fit for DH riding. Trail riding is another story. High engagement is great for technical climbing.

[@justing6614]

I had this ochain on my specialized enduro for over 9months took it off . Bike felt the same to me

[@summernewlands920]

I’m curious if you felt any difference between no pawls and chainless!

[@charliesponsel5091]

Huge difference. Chainless was much better than no pawls. I talk about this a little bit more at 7:15 and 10:20 in the video

[@PorridgeBlobber]

I echo your feelings of not having the clutch on making the bike feel terrible. To me it felt like someone had removed a load of air from my shock.

[@nathantoney.1501]

Can you test the new e13 hub? That might be the majik Chainless-like feel

[@cookie13spike]

More than once I have snapped off my deraileur, the bike is SOOO good descending with no chain and deraileur.. I'd really love to try a gearbox bike, all that mass and shit flapping at the back gone, it must be so much better!

[@ashkonsenaati8530]

How about trying different front chainring sizes and seeing if you feel any difference going downhill?

[@charliesponsel5091]

That would be interesting! In theory the bigger ring means less anti-squat, replicating the effects of a high idler. I think my frame is compatible with a 36 tooth max chainring. I wonder is 28 teeth to 36 teeth is enough of a range to test the theory.

[@ashkonsenaati8530]

@@charliesponsel5091 I think 28 to 36 should make a noticeable difference if there is any

[@graham8316]

Fabien barel style brake arm thing next?

[@ninjabortion]

Has anyone tried ebikes with their regular versions back to back to see if the spindle engagement delay has a similar benefit?

[@robhaskins3068]

The best way to improve suspension is at the piont of contact. Try a 29x3 15psi front and yes 27.5 x3.25. 16psi rear on a emtb that can't get kickback because of the sprag bearing. But what would I know. E=Mtb²

[@Boostbro]

7:16 what's song is this?

[@morganheater6831]

I think it's actually chain tension and chain mass momentum rather than the hub

[@charliesponsel5091]

That's what I thought too before the test, but if the hub doesn't have anything to do with it, then why would it be smoother and quieter when I pulled the pawls out of the hub.

[@ludicrousbrickstudio]

@@charliesponsel5091If clutch on = less kickback than clutch off, the chain mass whipping around must be causing "micro engagements" of some of the pawls. Perhaps akin to ratchet pedaling, but in a quicker, less obvious fashion? I wonder what a belt drive would feel like back to back. The O Chain would mitigate that somewhat by not being static and blunting the chain flop/whip. -maybe :) I am only on one cup of coffee and am not an engineer. Chains aren't exactly lightweight, so my untrained mind is thinking of them as the wet towel you would snap your "best" friends with versus a dry towel. Really cool experiment and enjoyable video.

[@morganheater6831]

@@charliesponsel5091 I guess the hub might be what's getting the chain moving.

[@brassmnky33]

Pedal kickback is caused by chain growth between the chain ring and the cassette when you go deep into the travel. Generally pedal kickback can be alleviated by the rotation of the wheel but you will be able to feel some force. When pedal kickback is a real problem is when you lock the brakes up and the wheel can’t rotate.

[@Lou-f]

Put it in a lower gear will put less pull from the chain on the cassette.

[@charliesponsel5091]

Yes, agree on all points. It was interesting for me to learn in this test that the freehub can engage on impacts (even when riding at very high speeds) and prevent the cassette from rotating freely. Did not expect that!

[@loamchasers]

It’s great when bike companies create a problem that other people try to…..they don’t want to tell you we made a mistake in creating high engagement hubs that their old less engagement hubs are far better. It’s why dt Swiss has 32 and they’re the greatest hubs

[@charliesponsel5091]

The trick with low engagement hubs is that they're sometimes 12 degrees away from engaging, and sometimes they're zero degrees away from engaging. So you get less pedal kickback on average, but sometimes you get the same amount of pedal kickback as you would with a super high engagement hub.

[@jsdk3000]

You kinda get into it at the end there at a surface level, but its not entirely clear to me if it's the freehub engagement pulling (on the suspension?) or the movement of the chain [slapping around] that causes the sensation through the pedals. Would love to see, or try myself, the same back to back testing but also with a low(er) engagement hub

[@charliesponsel5091]

At 1:10 in the video I pull the pawls out of my freehub in the hope of answering that exact question. I instantly noticed a difference, which confirmed for me that the engaging freehub is a factor in pedal kickback. It was also a big surprise, because I didn’t expect that result.

[@charliesponsel5091]

No engagement is sort of like the lowest-engagement hub imaginable.

[@jsdk3000]

@@charliesponsel5091 lol absolutely true! Was thinking more in the lines of would a lower engagement hub give an equal feeling as the O-Chain, or do the elastomers/springs? within the ochain help dampen the chain pulling as well

[@ROSE-by5su]

​@charliesponsel5091 yup I have ridden 3 pawls hub for 4 years and it make the drivetrain freely dance around floping around switched to 6 pawl hub it has less noise on chainstay area and less chainslap. I rather have idler tho than low engagement hubs to keep the chain floping around and consistent feel I also got tons of chaindrop from the 3 pawl hub my chainguide gaved up

[@Tzed250]

Doing the hard work for us!!!

[@bimfred]

is pinion with a belt and hight pivot a similar effect? If so, why do we need derailleurs at all?

[@dtacto]

because pinion is expensive, heavy, and inefficient

[@GarthFlint-nc2vj]

Different bikes have different priorities. XC is weight and efficiency conscious. Pinion is great for DH and ebikes. A derailleur is cheap and easy to maintain.

[@charliesponsel5091]

I think it all depends on whether you have a freehub engaging in the back of the bike. If you do, you're going to have all the same pedal kickback symptoms on a belt-driven bike as you would on a bike with a chain, and belt-driven bikes still use a spring-loaded tensioner (similar to a rear derailleur, but not used for shifting gears). The difference would be the reduction of chainslap, but we need to do more research to understand how much of an impact that has.

[@donavinnezar]

if your bike sounds likea shopping cart mine would sound likea drum set with rocks in it

[@charliesponsel5091]

We should make a band and take our music on the road.

[@GarthFlint-nc2vj]

Pedal kickback is very much subject to suspension design. Suspensions where the crank axle to rear axle length increases through the stroke can have a lot of kickback. High pivot suspension will have no kickback. Can it effect your riding? Depends on the length of travel, suspension design, how hard you ride and how stiff you ride. I doubt the average rider will notice enough kickback to justify an OChain or a new bike just to get rid of it. All of this can be simulated on high school geometry software and a little trig. But why bother? Just go ride and have fun.

[@charliesponsel5091]

Well, kind of. High pivot designs have a lot of rear center growth (where the crank axle to rear axle length increases through the stroke), but they typically use idler pulleys to offset the amount of growth the chain needs to do as the suspension compresses. So a high pivot bike without an idler would have the most amount of pedal kickback of any design (a la old 26" Scott Gambler), but high pivot designs with an idler often have the least (a la Norco Range).

[@GarthFlint-nc2vj]

@@charliesponsel5091 Yes, definitely. I should have specified with an idler like the new Norco bikes.

[@Twentykixx]

For DH this may be a thing worthwhile. For Enduro I don’t think it’s reasonable. I’d be more interested in high-engagement for pedal control. For DH makes it plausible about how much mech can counter the kinetic energy through the braking, drive train contact, and suspension kinematics.

[@luca_cometti]

how could you film on stairsteps? its clearly a climbing trail!

[@charliesponsel5091]

Like Judas Priest we're Breakin' the Law

[@luca_cometti]

@@charliesponsel5091 what if you hit an uphill e bike athlete trying to get a KOM?

[@charliesponsel5091]

@@luca_cometti Don't hate the player hate the game

[@CodaHale]

Giving the people what they want

[@SingleTrackMind207]

Just get a less engagement hub?

[@pauls1128]

Deviate high pivot for the win.

[@PeteMac69]

The bike tech industry strikes again! A fix to a problem that barely existed before high engagement hubs (must have that buzz!). I guess this adds weight as well as wear and tear/running cost $$? Sucked in. Again! Next there will be a mullet specific version!👍👍

[@euanbegbie]

How high is his seat😮

[@charliesponsel5091]

High enough

[@robhaskins3068]

Is all this highpivot guff just marketing. Please give it a test. Look at the high pivot Cavalerie Anakin V2 with belt drive and swinging arm high pivoting around the drive sprocket with no need for any tensioner. Ducks guts E=Mtb²

[@KevinSmithStrikeman]

Peddle kickback is a pain in the feet... But I have the solution to this and you can have high engagement hub! comment below on what you think my solution is and the winner gets a thumbs up.

[@nathantoney.1501]

I got it!!! Suspension SHOES!!!

[@MasterChronometer]

Explain this Seb Stott

[@weirc]

out here selling o-chains!

[@LaurentiusTriarius]

Very interesting to see as a kickback denier... I have a local bit of trail like that, it's the trail head I can't really avoid it. Could go slower since nobody gives me 500$ for my wheels every time 🫠 pls help 😂

[@MrStonedraider]

the solution to kickback is idlers to maintain chain length

[@troymortimer3487]

Yeah so many enduros running high pivots these days.

[@craigivison2951]

so i9 is not a sponsor 😂

[@mrfaffer-c3q]

So what I hearing is high engagement hubs aren’t for racing ?

[@charliesponsel5091]

I think it's a little bit more complicated than that. For starters, some bikes have worse pedal kickback than others. In theory, I think a high engagement hub paired with an Ochain would be optimal for bikes with high levels of pedal kickback. I'm also not convinced that low engagement hubs are a lot better than high engagement hubs, because a low engagement hub is sometimes 12 degrees away from engaging and sometimes 0 degrees away from engaging.

[@mrfaffer-c3q]

@@charliesponsel5091 yeah I know I was just summarizing lol. you been watching moi moi tv huh lol. personally the I9 1/1 feels the best for peddle kick plus good engagement.

[@catg9196]

Isn’t it why DH bikes are high pivots?

[@dejaya7945]

I don't think that saying the free hub is the cause of pedal kickback is correct, the cause is chain growth from suspension kinematics. I mean there's no pedal kickback on a hard tail with a rear hub right?

[@charliesponsel5091]

Correct. There really isn't one singular "cause," there are many inputs that create pedal kickback, including the freehub, chain growth, suspension kinematics, and more. I suppose you could say bumps and gravity cause pedal kickback, too.

[@pinchpeak5203]

Pedal engagement isn't fast enough so I buy new hubs for faster engagement, wait no that's too fast so I buy a chain ring to make my pedal engagement worse again. Stonks $$$

[@charliesponsel5091]

Yes, lower engagement hubs do reduce pedal kickback at the pedals, but it's not quite as simple as the story you're telling. The trick with low engagement hubs is that they're sometimes 12 degrees away from engaging, and sometimes they're zero degrees away from engaging. So you get less pedal kickback on average, but sometimes you get the same amount of pedal kickback as you would with a super high engagement hub. Whether that matters to you or not is a valid question. Low engagement hubs will be an acceptable solution for some riders.

[@50whatnomadtravelnursemtb5]

Seems really a non issue, people like gadgets

[@charliesponsel5091]

It is absolutely a non-issue for 99% of mountain bikers, but my hope is that it's an interesting research question for those of us who like theory and research and gadgets.

[@dont_hit_trees]

Why not just leave in your 18 prawl DT Swiss? Terrible engagement. Looks about the same play.

[@charliesponsel5091]

The trick with low engagement hubs is that they're sometimes 12 degrees away from engaging, and sometimes they're zero degrees away from engaging. So you get less pedal kickback on average, but sometimes you get the same amount of pedal kickback as you would with a super high engagement hub.

[@dont_hit_trees]

@@charliesponsel5091 Makes sense.

[@levinsonl]

Trail is nasty

[@marauder7412]

So you didn't time any of the runs to see what is actually faster? So you have no real data except for how you felt. Feelings are not real therefore this test cannot claim that pedal kickback is real either. 😁

[@charliesponsel5091]

My feelings felt really real to me

[@RatluBoogerbag]

So my takeaway from this, is that the company behind Ochain has essentially designed a solution for a problem that there was already a solution for, and is absolutely rinsing people of their money for it. The proper solution is cheap low engagement hubs that have been around for decades.

[@PatBK]

The point everybody seems to forget, is that often times you are braking through rough stuff, where the back wheel looks up at least everytime it leaves the ground, even with extremely controlled bracking. Now when the wheel is locked the low engagement hub doesn't do anything for you anymore, while the ochain still works. I ride 36 point engagement hubs and the ochain still made a huge difference in back to back testing, especially under hard bracking.

[@charliesponsel5091]

@@PatBK Exactly. Hub engagement doesn't come into play when your rear wheel is skidding. And even when your rear wheel is spinning, the trick with low engagement hubs is that they're sometimes 12 degrees away from engaging, and sometimes they're zero degrees away from engaging. So you get less pedal kickback on average, but sometimes you get the same amount of pedal kickback as you would with a super high engagement hub.

[@dit4963]

Bad test, as the tester is not "blinded". If medical tests would be done like this medical companies would would worth trillions😅At the speeds you were riding is literally impossible for the hub to engage (without locking the rear wheel, which anyway you should not do, for obvious reasons). See "What is PEDAL KICKBACK?...Should you care?" from Trail POV and "How Your Chain Interacts With Your Suspension - The Tuesday Tune 31" from Vorsprung Suspension for explanations. In the comments the guy from Vorsprung says: "I don't believe it achieves anything. Same for the prototype system Canyon had on their bikes to manually disengage the freehub with a remote, which seemed like a needlessly dangerous system." And watch the Pinkbike drop-to-flat tests. The chain is flapping all over the pace, so how could a loose chain pull your cranks? 😅

[@charliesponsel5091]

"At the speeds you were riding is literally impossible for the hub to engage." That's what I thought before the test, and that's exactly what I was hoping to test. If taking the pawls out makes a noticeable difference, doesn't that mean the hub WAS engaging, even at high speeds?

[@dit4963]

@@charliesponsel5091 No, if you don't lock your rear wheel, which anyway you shouldn't do. It's highschool math. Testing is unreliable when it can be affected by placebo. There is a reason why doing experiements where humans are involved is so difficult and why non-blinded experiements are not valid in medicine or psychology. I suggest more reading on that.

[@testtesttesttesttest884]

TEAM ROBOT! One of the few people in/or adjacent to this stupid sport with a brain.

[@charliesponsel5091]

THANKS DUDE! Glad you liked the test.

[@jpgamer6856]

btw instead of taking the pawls of you could just take the chain off😂

[@charliesponsel5091]

Those are actually different things. I was trying to test if the chain has it's own effects on suspension, so I tested it with no pawls and a chain, and tested it with no chain at all. That way I was able to isolate variables.

[@jpgamer6856]

@@charliesponsel5091 ooooh, that explains it

[@nathantoney.1501]

SCIENCE!!!

[@425flex]

Couldn’t he have just removed his chain instead of removing the pawls?

[@vitalmtb]

you should watch the whole video : )

[@charliesponsel5091]

Those are actually different things. I was trying to test if the chain has it's own effects on suspension, so I tested it with no pawls and a chain, and tested it with no chain at all. That way I was able to isolate variables.

[@tonkshred]

Been riding sine the 90s and never ever have I heard of such a thing. My years of trials riding says that is the worst thing in the world 😂😂😂😂😂 but i see trends in mtb go towards technology over skills in every aspect. We got our engagement up, now we are faking less engagement?! Ahahahahahahahhahaha pure poison, lag? Paying for lag? Gtfoh go sit in the corner with headset cable routing.🎉

[@SpencerBaum]

Lol, what is this coping ass comment. If an ochain is such a stupid idea as you claim, then why do the majority of downhill world cup racers run them? Yeah, they're probably not for everyone, (I don't run one and don't want one) but for their use case, it's a good product.

[@ROSE-by5su]

You have been riding since 90s and still can't understand how things work, DAMN

[@SpencerBaum]

@@ROSE-by5su I never said I've been riding since the 90s... Just saying it's an actual solution to a real problem. If it wasn't, I don't think most of the best downhill riders in the world would be running it...

[@charliesponsel5091]

Did you ride a lot of long-travel full suspension bikes when you were riding trials? Because I don't think the Ochain would be very useful on a rigid trials bike.

[@tonkshred]

@@charliesponsel5091 I've been racing a 160/150 in enduros this year because of the absolute LACK of any trialsers in the asheville area !!! Wouldnt of wanted it on the pisgah enduro course last week thats for sure !

[@MarioXcore1]

ochain only helps with chain slap vibrations, not kickback

[@ROSE-by5su]

I get what you mean but it helps to reduce kickback actually it just depends on how much kickback the bike has.

[@charliesponsel5091]

Why do you think Ochain wouldn't help with kickback? Curious what your reasoning is. Our test led us to the opposite conclusion.

[@petersuchansky6703]

What is causing you to sit there and do BSing? Money. slight kick back is there but all of us can go along with it. The money you all spend here could go to Ukraine. Ask them if they bother any kickback on their bikes. PS your bike sounds normal and look at earthed vids what could old wheels absorb. Cheers my greedy speculator.