Does WAX on ARROW HEADS Do Anything?

Needle bodkin arrow heads do penetrate fabric armour, but not that well.
In modern times there is a persistent thought that arrow heads may have had wax on them.
Does it do anything?
Lets find out.
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[@jakewagner7416]

"I might be a geek..." You're saying that to people who are watching a video on waxing medieval arrowheads. You're among friends.

[@tods_workshop]

so very true! - friend

[@KnightOwl1881]

Exactly hahahaha

[@SirDragonClaw]

@@tods_workshop It's an increase in penetration of 98.5% (if you use averages) not 55%. Basically double the average penetration depth, which is huge!

[@carpediem5232]

@@SirDragonClaw Yes he calculated it the wrong way around. The unwaxed tips only penetrate 55% as deep.

[@RobertKaucher]

One of us! One of us!

[@holyknightthatpwns]

"Don't tell me it's wrong, go look in a museum." What a fantastic line

[@john-paulsilke893]

Chevalier Mal Fet yup. I have a 14 century Prussian long sword. Someone told me it was fake because it was way too light, had a rounded tip and had a slight bend in it which is impossible since sword can’t bend they simply break. Wow, it’s like they’ve never listened to someone they disagree with or read a book. It’s absolutely okay to be wrong. In fact I had thought my sword was German since that’s where my ex-wife picked it up, but I was corrected by an actual expert who also said it wasn’t in any way rare or important and thus at best worth $400-$500, or almost double what she paid for it. 🤪

[@NevisYsbryd]

@@john-paulsilke893 Well, Prussia is in modern day Germany

[@Erpyrikk]

@@john-paulsilke893 with our HEMA club we regularly have a stand at local events and people are always surprised how light longswords are.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

I want to try some armour penetration tests with my 240lb@32 longbow. Using this prod with a han dynasty trigger system, we can Have reasonable idea of the power of Chinese crossbows (nobody makes +200lb sinew horn composites anymore so using longbow prod instead)

[@tods_workshop]

I nearly edited this out. I feel a T shirt coming on....

[@tods_workshop]

As has been pointed out - my percentages are wrong (maths not being my thing apparently) and in fact it is around 80%. And while we are at it, Teflon arrantly is to protect the barrel and I have fallen for TV junk information - sorry and damn I hate falling for this sort of guff and is exactly what I try to avoid with my films.

[@CristiNeagu]

It's an increase in penetration of about 95% (if you use averages). If you don't use wax, it's a decrease of 50%.

[@lewisheasman]

Good that you pointed this out. I could tell there would be people to rant about this mistake.

[@igorpuschner786]

Interesting. I wonder: you waxed the tips of the bolts. And when you showed them, it appeared to me as if you covered about the top 5cm of them. Could it be that the penetration depth corellates with the waxed surface?

[@Scarlet_Soul]

That part threw me off for a second whilst watching but glad to see you pin this afterwards

[@spider0804]

Was just about to write up some math. I hope this discovery will be useful in future videos about x vs y. Cheers!

[@blueeyedwolf4175]

Hi Tod, love your work ! I've got a tip about waxing metal : I'm a locksmith for historical monuments and I wax my locks almost all the time, because it protects it from rust and acts as a "dry lubricant" (grease eventutally catches the dirt and jams the mecanism). Plus it respects the texture and color of forged steel. I use a mix of different waxes, cause bee wax is a bit too soft when cold, and I apply it on hot metal (about 80°C), so it stays liquid on it and I can swipe the excess off. I know for sure this trick was used during the 18th century, not sure about the 15th, but it could be useful for arrowheads. I garantee even though there's just a thin layer, the surface is made much smoother and it does lubricate well, for my locks it's night and day. So yeah, there might be better to do than just dip arrowheads in liquid wax. Cheers from France, keep up the good work !

[@NoctuaStrigiformes]

That was a very informative comment and much appreciated. Would you mind sharing your recipe? I'm currently using Renaissance Wax.

[@fryingpancakes8445]

Hey maybe somebody back then just wanted to keep stockpiled bolts from rusting so they waxed all the bolt heads. And some soldiers who end up using these may actually find out that waxed bolts perform way better than unwaxed ones. It is totally a possible scenario. I wonder if there is any written records of this becoming a standard for arrow makers back then.

[@Dr._Spamy]

That's what I was thinking about when I saw and hear the goatfoot in action. It do not seems to work rather smoothly and it sounds like it's eating the pivot pin. Maybe a bit of wax would help here too. It may even be better to also harden and polish the pivot pin I guess.

[@blameusa7082]

tried that dry lube once.. mrs went fking mental!

[@NigelTolley]

Amusing coincidence I just saw this - I do old locks too, and doesn't a few hours this evening looking at the old Japan Black technique. Yours is also a good one.

[@gerardbryant4840]

As the heads are made of iron, maybe waxing arrowheads started out as a way to prevent rust. As you said they were medieval, and therefore limited by the technology of the time.

[@cheerfultrout4381]

Nevermind tech level, people are *still* using wax as a protective coating on stuff (eg cars) only difference is the type of wax

[@benjaminboyle7329]

I agree it seems likely that they used something to protect the steel. I wonder if other common anti rust coatings like animal fat would have the same effect on penetration

[@ABaumstumpf]

@@cheerfultrout4381 I think he meant they didn't try wax for the penetration but simply used it for storage already. maybe they never even noticed cause most metal objects were covered in some sort of wax or oil to prevent rust so they never shot them without it.

[@Glimmlampe1982]

@@benjaminboyle7329 sheep's wool famously has a lot of wax in it

[@Boomchacle]

@@cheerfultrout4381 Dont forget Bowstrings

[@2001herne]

When he said "Same brain", he reminded me of something my engineering teacher said a lot. "They weren't stupid. They weren't simple. They were only less advanced". And I think that a lot of people forget that.

[@kaikart123]

Many are stupid because education was not for everyone, many are simple because many are farmers, and it's true they were less advanced. But doesn't mean they have less brain capacity to modern humans. Your engineering teacher is a moron.

[@kaikart123]

@skrot schmobbler the same teacher also says they were not stupid and not simple when in fact, they were.

[@HandOfThemis]

@@kaikart123 That depends on what you mean by stupid. You likely wouldn't understand how to do at least 65% of the tasks our ancestors had to do, just as they wouldn't understand most of our tech. Not saying that either party couldn't learn to use each others' tech, but it's all about perspective and relevance to your era's average job. Not to mention the fact that most modern people in the first world try and discard their primary education like its an unwanted baby nowadays.

[@LTVoyager]

ngentotsemua His engineering teacher was spot on. Methinks you are the moron. And there is a big difference between ignorance and stupidity. Look it up ... if you are able.

[@Ardjano234]

Mostly yes, but nutrition and other health factors have some influence on IQ. This means that high IQ is rarer among poor people and I believe nowadays we are better fed, this slightly smarter. From what people in history wrote and achieved, it is still evident that there were plenty geniuses back then.

[@kitchentroll5868]

I recall reading in a college text for medieval history that beef tallow was often used for candle-making, more often than bees' wax. It was a good deal later that I saw how this was done at a medieval fair. The part that had not been explained in the text was that the tallow is boiled until it loses nearly all its water content and is (at room temperature) as hard as bees' wax. I cannot help but think that the iron and low steel of the medieval era was very prone to rusting, so perhaps it was a general practice to dip all metal arrowheads in heated tallow to proof them against rust?

[@paulsalb1686]

Yes I would agree with you about rust issue makes sense

[@tarnvedra9952]

That would be good alternative for not very hot climates as beef (or mutton) tallow melts above the body temperature.

[@petergosden1]

Just my thoughts on seeing this video. Not sure about lard. I shoot a lot of antique and vintage firearms where bullets/paper cartridges are lubed. Historically pure lard became too soft for military use and storage, and the acid content actually leads to rusting of iron or steel. I can testify to that, I no longer leave any lard based lube in my steel dies! Beeswax alone if frequently too brittle and will flake off. A mix of both to soften the beeswax a little is preferred. No problem in the Middle Ages. Coating the iron heads if only to deter rust seems to make sense. Though an alternative would be to dip in Linseed Oil while still hot from the forge. Still common today in mineral oil.

[@viktorbimmel4007]

Rust on an arrowhead wouldnt be that much of an issue, because they are not that sharp

[@CowsGoMonkey]

@@viktorbimmel4007 Arrow heads wouldn't just surface rust.

[@bozo5632]

Week two of quarantine, everyone's just laying around waxing their bodkins.

[@littlebigheroman]

Hey, anything to improve penetration.

[@kyphe.]

So shiny right now

[@bigblue6917]

You can go blind doing that. 😮

[@loddude5706]

Now, there's an idea!

[@rothgartheviking858]

not going to deny it

[@TheHarleyEvans]

"i might be a geek..." Don't worry. we are too!

[@bigredwolf6]

TheHarleyEvans Some fringe UK politician: wait you can’t say that that’s a hate crime! (As I understand it, it’s not. Yet. The politician no shit said the word geek and nerd should fall under hate crime laws)

[@robgoodsight6216]

Hell Yessssss!!!

[@inthefade]

"Who is more the geek? The geek, or the geek who follows him?" I'm sure someone famous said that.

[@commondognut]

I read that as “I might be a greek...” and I have no idea why

[@Powerofriend]

It's an honorific these days anyway.

[@marz6770]

7:58 Wait, he is saying this is an increase of 55% but : - 26mm -> 45mm is an increase of 73% - 25mm -> 47mm is an increase of 88% - 18mm -> 45mm is an increase of 150% Please tell me if I just misunderstood what he is saying.

[@mikefule]

He's since accepted that he got the maths wrong. Your calculations are correct.

[@l2vorsen2k]

Was looking for this post. yes it's over 100% increase avrage

[@sevenseas2673]

I think he was probably not thinking of the actual increase in percentage, 26mm-->45mm an increase of 19mm, and 19mm, so 42% represents the part of the improved penetration that is due to the wax. The proper wording with that reasoning would be "Without the wax there is 45% less penetration". He got confused with the numbers, but I see where he was trying to get at.

[@Cisco88C]

Same thinking, I scrolled down until I found yor comment

[@niclastname]

I've seen this same mistake happen several times before. He did the math right but got the answer in reverse and didn't realize it's not the same both ways. If you took those same things backwards he got the percentage correct as a DECREASE. However, as an increase it doubles. So an 88% _increase_ is a 44% *decrease* if you're going the other way etc etc. I've seen people make this mistake when showing things like price differences as well. Saying something like $25 to $50 is a 50% increase, when it's 100% but they're just looking at it the other way, and applying the same number not realizing that it changes the percentage, because it would be 50% if they were talking about going from $50 to $25.

[@mrpolskija]

"When in doubt - More lubrication!" - Jamie Hyneman, Mythbusters

[@im8015]

I really miss that show, it was so great.

[@dragonsword7370]

@@im8015 it's alright. Jamie hyneman is making forest firefighting remote controlled AFV's.

[@nickthequick2011]

😔

[@TDGCmote]

mrpolskija nice likes

[@georgeford6056]

"There's no time for lubricant." - Evolution (2001)

[@perfidy1103]

This was really surprising. I was expecting something statistically insignificant like an extra one or two mm, not nearly double. Also it's easy to imagine the circumstances where someone used a bit of wax to stop their bolts heads rusting, so I could definitely see this having happened.

[@user93237]

One-tailed t-test: p = .0004, so highly significant indeed!

[@maryannaequeenofblades7148]

The reduction of friction is very import for this kind of point since they don't cut the fabric and have to forcefully move it out of the way...

[@tsmspace]

which might explain the fatter bolts, because they will impact the target , and expend their spreading force more quickly. The bodkin tips will gradually expend their spreading force, but IF the fatter bolts DO penetrate, they will penetrate before the energy can disperse so much, allowing them to have more energy for the soft tissue.

[@KageRyuu6]

@@tsmspace Actually the fatter bolts as you call them are widely believed designed for dealing with plate armor for both mass and reducing deflection, while I don't know about Tod but from my days sitting in front of the History channel I always figured bodkins were designed for defeating mail, given that the Stiletto was designed for such. After all gambeson isn't substantially different from an animal's skin, so broadheads could be used for such armor as well. I am however interested in a comparison of waxed broadheads to bodkins now.

[@pd4165]

@luigi mario If you've ever tried sewing thick fabric* you'd know that you don't use a knitting needle, you use something with the minimum cross section for the job (and you wax the fuck out of it). Broadheads against gambison? That's a ridiculous idea. It's as if you haven't thought about what you said at all! Or watched the video. Didn't Tod just demonstrate that a waxed bodkin (needle) performs well against gambison? You don't attempt to cut the fibres, you slide between them. A single layer of fabric (excepting silk - which you allegedly use to help retrieve arrowheads from wounds) has no real value against sharp blades, hence is almost useless against broadheads. But gambison isn't a single layer; a broadhead might penetrate gambison, but it would take a lot more energy than a needle bodkin because it's trying to cut through hundreds of fibres and losing energy all the time. Given the choice I'd be wearing plate, backed up by a gambison (silk if I was stinking rich), to stop anything but the most energetic projectile weapon. *leather is fibrous - you could consider it a fabric.

[@dragoscoco2173]

​@@pd4165 Tod's previous video of broadheads bodkins and platecutter against gambeson and more solved that conundrum. Broadheads were way more effective than anything against gambeson because of cutting the fibers and clearing the path.

[@asherandai1000]

@luigi mario There's nothing wrong with speculation. In fact most "facts" begin as speculation. Someone speculates an idea, they test it, they find out if they were right or not. To use your example; Someone speculates we should the flat side of spoon to cut steaks, they try to do it, they find it doesn't work. Never discourage curiosity. It's the worst thing you can do in science.

[@markhenryramsey9132]

As you pointed out I’m sure they’d have tried all sorts of innovations. It’s what humans do best.

[@anonymousmink5027]

Especially in times you really have a lot of free time-- In the modern world once you're out of work there's still a lot of things you need to manage, in times such as those, things were more physically demanding, but seasons such as summer when the crops were already planted, fields tilled, harvest not yet ready, etc, there were a few times where once the daily work was done you kinda were done for the day, and since they didn't have things such as the internet people in their leisure tended to explore, test, and invent things more to ideally make work easier or just life as a whole easier

[@Erikreaver]

Well. I've tested waxing arrowheads myself today. While testing my bow, I tried using a tanned red deer's neck put on a chainlink fence as a targed, just to test out penetration while the target had a good amount of give. (Too much I later found, but it is consistent) I found it surprisingly resistant, out of all my arrows only the bodkin seemed to penetrate it consistently, and not that much. Tod of Tod's stuff released a video yesterday on wax on crossbow quarrels, so I decided to try it out myself, and my findings have been almost exactly the same. I shot 15 times into the neck, which is from 6ish to 18mm thick. 7 (1into the thickest part) when dry, 8 (3into thickest part) when waxed - just rubbed a ball of beeswax on the arrowhead every shot Dry amounted to average of 32,5mm without counting the thickest part shot, 31mm when counting that as well. Waxed did 91,5mm not counting the thickest part shots, and 72,5mm with them. It should be noted that the thickest part of the bodkin itself is about 43mm from the very tip, followed by a thin neck and a socked which again tapers out. The dry's deepest was 65mm deep, the waxed 114mm, twice. Which was almost at the very end of the socket, wider than the bodkin itself again. Wax yer arrers, ladz.

[@EpicWorkshop]

Awesome video 🍻 I am pretty sure they did it. I wax my woodworking planes and other tools to make them go smoother and with less effort and It prevents rust. I love the line: "same brain different technology"

[@captaincaveman471]

Helps for driving long screws into hardwood as well.

[@vazi011]

Im pretty sure they did, I'm almost sure they did waxed or greased the resting pad of the crossbow as well as the string- for protections , and tha s already a small greasing on the the arrows.

[@tommihommi1]

wow, that's a huge improvement. And as a bonus you get rust protection if you dip the whole head :D

[@bigredwolf6]

tommihommi1 But I’ve only got enough wax for just the tip

[@thrifikionor7603]

They probably did that anyways for that purpose and never noticed that it does increase penetration because it was always waxed or treated with another kind of material like oil or fat.

[@DrTheRich]

or just put them in a dry box... if you keep steel dry it can last a long time before it starts to rust, without any oily protection.

[@ABaumstumpf]

@@DrTheRich And just a single bad fingerprint can ruin that.

[@themastermason1]

My money is that it's the other way round. They waxed the arrowheads/boltheads for rust protection during storage and they give a bonus improvement to penetration.

[@aussiebloke609]

1:00 "Don't tell me it's wrong - go look in a museum." Something that needs to be said to the vast majority of keyboard warriors. Bravo. :-)

[@rommedegraauw4060]

I mean, that's the kind of thing the keyboard warriors might say themselves too. It's exactly the me vs you mentality that goes counter to meaningful debate. I'd rather have a "This is where I am pulling my sources from, I think they are the most likely cases so I'm going with that but feel free to try and convince me otherwise"

[@rodparsons6719]

@@rommedegraauw4060 A naive faith in authorities might presume that no rubbish finds it way into museum collections or that the most commonly occurring type will be proof of best practice. Sometimes it might be, for example, that most commonly occurring items are evidence of lowest cost or most readily available. For a given application, what is the best combination of material, length, weight, taper, edge/point hardness and surface finish when shot by a "standard"" powerstroke? And how much variability is acceptable or even practical?

[@rockyblacksmith]

Reminds me of an Isaac Newton quote: "I have studied these things. You have not."

[@daveatman2989]

Would a waxy/oily coating also be valuable for preservation. After all, many arrows/bolts would lie in storage for years, wouldn't they?

[@viktorbimmel4007]

I dont think so, that would require huge amounts of wax. Keep in mind that someone has to keep all these bees, and you cant take too much at once from one hive. They also had rather simple bee hives, not as productive as modern ones.

[@jakehoyer8668]

@@viktorbimmel4007 compared to the amount of beeswax, tallow, or equivalent already in production at that time for candles and such it's a pretty tiny amount. as I see it it would be a relatively minor investment to protect and prolong the far larger investment you've put into the reserves of arrows and bolts

[@cheerfultrout4381]

@@jakehoyer8668 not to mention the extra effectiveness it apparently provides, which I'm sure *someone* would've noticed, makes it even more worth the investment

[@pkz420]

@@viktorbimmel4007 It doesn't need to be bees wax. There were many cheaper alternatives. eg. tallow. Cheaper than letting arrowheads rust.

[@OutOfNamesToChoose]

@@jakehoyer8668 They wouldn't need to dip them, necessarily. Perhaps many of the same benefits were gained (and wax use reduced) through wiping on the wax instead, or wiping on a wax-oil mixture (something that has long been a practice in blacksmithing.)

[@ArcherWarhound]

8:23 Loved this and all your experiments! I just watched the previous head-type experiment with the wife last night. A geeky but important point of clarification: Teflon is NOT put on bullets to help them penetrate either fabric or plate armor, it is put on them to reduce damage to barrel rifling. The myth of increased penetration is a persistent lie widely spread by the sensationalism of news media and Hollywood in the 90s, and is complete bunk. Armor-piercing bullets are made of harder metals than standard bullets and thus wear out the rifling in gun barrels faster than normal bullets, so to reduce damage to the rifling armor-piercing bullets are coated in Teflon to lubricate their exit from the barrel. However, that Teflon is shredded in the process of traversing the barrel and does not measurably effect the penetration depth of the bullet when it hits the target.

[@norullzz]

maybe the teflon on bullets myth stems from the wax on arrows practice.

[@immikeurnot]

@@norullzz Nah. Teflon was used as a coating on hard solid brass bullets capable of defeating soft armor that were being developed specifically FOR police use. The sold brass caused pressure spikes and fouling (lead-core bullets deform quite a bit to engage the rifling, solid brass or copper won't so much), so Teflon was tried to prevent this. Anyhow, the project leaked, hit the media, politicians ran with it, and since the media and politicians are morons, they latched onto the Teflon thing along with the "defeats police style armor" while ignoring the rest.

[@RubberyCat]

@@immikeurnot Do not underestimate assumptions.

[@evilcanofdrpepper]

Every time Tod puts out a new video: Me " YES YES YES! What awesome interesting fact about the past is about to be uncovered?" Also putting wax on the head of arrows seems perfectly reasonable because if an army had thousands of arrows made and they were being stored in a damp basement somewhere you would want to keep them from getting to rusty. I suppose the other alternative would be oil but that might have to be reapplied over time and oil soaking into the shaft of the arrows might cause the heads to loosen up. Wax on the other hand is a much more rugged coating and would probably only need to be applied to the tips once.

[@bigredwolf6]

evilcanofdrpepper Wouldn’t soaking up oil make the shaft expand?

[@tsmspace]

Did you see the latest video series featuring shadiversity, theng-thrand, and nusensei, where they (somewhat argumentatively) go back and forth and in the comments about shooting bows holding the arrow on the opposite side of the bow?? They make some interesting commentary, and it may be a valuable concept when considering medieval art.

[@thomasjoyce7910]

Something I like about you is that you don't over-sell things. You keep expectations low/realistic. I'm glad that you got a gratifying and clear result this time.

[@kit888]

Goat's foot lever is squeaky. Would waxing it make spanning faster?

[@andvil01]

Just my thought too.

[@ianmacfarlane1241]

Wax everything.

[@cryoshakespeare4465]

Wax ALL THE THINGS!!!

[@jameshenderson4094]

Problem is it'll probably scrap off the wax every time you span it, maybe put a grooved wheel on the bolt that the goat's fool scrapes against?

[@andvil01]

@@jameshenderson4094 You only need a very thin layer wax or oil to reduce friction. And it will reduce rust as well. Never overcomplicate a construction. That will fail in it self. Thats why the kalashnikov just works whatever you throw at it. First rule of engineering: KISS, Keep it simple, stupid! Second rule (Murphys law) If it can fail, it will. More complicated details that can fail. See rule #1. Third rule: If people can missunderstand or missuse it, they will. See rule #1. Fouth rule: When it fails, and it will, some idiot has to repair it. See rule #1.

[@buckstarchaser2376]

Now that you have discovered lubrication, perhaps put some on your loading leaver thing. It should make it much easier since it was making galling noises.

[@dantherpghero2885]

Maybe the wax was used to prevent the metal from rusting. And it just had an unforeseen benefit?

[@beardedbjorn5520]

Most likely the case in my opinion.

[@fire304]

It may have started as simply preservative, then someone noticed that some heads worked better than others (perhaps the first shots during practice vs after several shots, or that fresh arrows in combat didn't bounce as much as ones picked up during the fight) and figured it out.

[@benholroyd5221]

Agreed, the question is, did they realise it also increased penetration? Wouldn't animal fats have been more available, and have a similar effect? So then the question becomes, why specifically wax, better penetration or better corrosion resistance, that could trade out a cause and effect.

[@Mrdark7199]

Yes its a traditional finish for iron/steal regardless of its use.

[@fire304]

@@benholroyd5221 any oil/fat would both preserve and increase penetration. Bees wax would have been available to archers as it's needed to lubricate bow strings as well. Wood could be preserved by oil such as tung or linseed as well.

[@mace8873]

-"I might be a geek". No Tod, you *are* a geek, and that's a badge of honour where I'm from!

[@octaverouge2148]

-Random bloke: "Tod why is your right arm so muscular?" -Tod : "I shoot crossbows"

[@sliceofbread2611]

now "shooting the crossbow" has a whole different meaning for me.. thanks

[@sliceofbread2611]

"waxing the bodkin" is another one sorry

[@CognosSquare]

@@sliceofbread2611 "Putting the ole wax on the tip".

[@CognosSquare]

"Cranking the goatsfoot"

[@blairbuskirk5460]

He also is a blacksmith.

[@davidsalman8362]

*TOD* The Builder *CAN HE BUILD IT?* *TOD* The Builder *YES HE CAN!*

[@hiimryan2388]

*DESTROYING THE ENEMY* *YES HE CAN*

[@feanororonar5037]

that was really eye opening! by the way: i think waxing also protects the bolt from corrosion. so that may be another argument that people back then did this. Because when you want to re-use the bolt i think you just want to be able to pick it up and not polish it and the other arrows/bolts you shot for a whole day and poke your finger several times. great video! greetings from germany ;)

[@Knort]

it´s interesting, but still doesnt look like it would kill, injure yes, my bet is they did stick the tips in poo so the wound gets infected... Also wax was pretty expensive too

[@SonsOfLorgar]

@@Knort if they are waxed, they don't need poop, there is enough germs on the targets clothing for the wax to pull into the wound and get the same contaminating effect. And while wax and parrafin was expensive, tallow and grease was not that.

[@bigredwolf6]

What state? BW? Bavaria? Rhineland?

[@tiihtu2507]

@@Knort Unless you're made out of insulation foam, I don't think you can use the video to judge how deeply the arrows would penetrate human flesh.

[@Mrdark7199]

Traditionally most blacksmith finish with wax on iron or steal so there would be wax on them form the smith.

[@ArkadiBolschek]

Someone tell Matt Easton, he'll be interested to know about the difference in penetration!!!

[@AggelosKyriou]

He'll also point out the change in context.

[@ArkadiBolschek]

@@AggelosKyriou Context is important.

[@Poldovico]

Matt Easton is composed of 50% Historical martial arts, 50% context, 100% dirty jokes.

[@erzefranz3470]

The only reference I can find to this is a reference to a letter by "Count M. Mildmay Stayner, Recorder, The British Longbow Society. Letter, 8th April, 1976," mentioned in margo.student.utwente.nl/sagi/artikel/longbow/longbow2.html and other places on the web. "Stayner notes that the 6 inch socketed heads were often waxed to aid penetration." This referred to bodkin pointed arrowheads. It's quoted by many, but where did Count Stayner get this information?

[@tods_workshop]

Thank you!

[@GregoryPastoll]

Very impressed with your presentation. You speak well, get to the point, don't waffle, don't add distracting music. Clear and fascinating demonstration. Thank you, Tod.

[@sliceofbread2611]

does this mean i also have to build a beehives in Stronghold 2 to make my crossbowmen more effective?

[@DisorderedArray]

The extra mead production will be a debuff though...

[@john-paulsilke893]

You could always let the bees eat rhododendrons and make “mad honey” for your enemies to find. 🤮

[@lcmiracle]

Yeah, especially considering the size of the Cathedral it's probably better to have just wax for bolts and arrows.

[@alexandersarchives9615]

Huh, I never would have expected that. Then again, I never expected a 15th century dagger to have “eat cheese or die” written on it.... anyways, great video!

[@IanSinclair77]

Just rewatched the Agincourt video this morning. Was wondering if there would ever be a bees wax video - expecting it would be a wish and nothing more. Thank you so much for doing this. Love your work mate.

[@LokarofWS]

GREAT video! Thank you for not prattling on with a bunch of nonsense. you put the idea out there, did your trials and showed the results! Perfect. So many of these videos go on for 30 minutes about nothing.

[@adonoghuea02]

I've been thinking a lot about the first vidoe you did, and I think the reason the needle didn't do as well as the broad bodkin might be because, whilst the broad bodkin can cut through, the needle has a much smaller cutting edge (just the tip really) and so, once it has made the small cut, it needs to force the fabric out of its way, and the fabric is simply too dense for it to be able to manage. Fantastic follow up though, lots of food for thought.

[@LeonBenEnders]

for the bolts vs armor, having the bolt capped by a bigger blob might be better. To copy one of the two behaviors of a capped ap shell. not the balistic cap(apbc) (that's for flight speed only) but the normal cap (apc) which prevents hardnend penetrators from shattering on impact & can often increase penetration on sloped armor, since it being hit on the bottom makes the main penetrator buckle ever so slightly before it impacts, that it can align it with the armor and by that i mean align it to a perpendicular point of attack (benefit is usually under 5 Degrees of angle, but it should/could almost double the area in which a bolt/arrow has a chance at penetrating/damaging the armor)

[@srenmogensen7965]

It's seems to be like waxing a needle when sewing leather, they probably did that as well.

[@DrTheRich]

You don't wax the needle, but you do wax the thread. If you wax the needle, it will be too slippery to pull it through. Source: I'm a sailmaker (same needles, different material, as sturdy).

[@AggelosKyriou]

@@DrTheRich in Greece we did lube the bodkin needles with a mix of olive oil dregs, unsalted lard and wax. My grandfather who sewed leather did this. I don't know if it had to do with preservation or with aiding penetration into leather.

[@danilotodeschini6777]

Agreed

[@SeadartVSG]

@@DrTheRich You do to sew leather. Also carpenters have been using wax or soap to make screws and awls go into wood easier for centuries.

[@pd4165]

@@DrTheRich I've sewn heavy fabrics and leather - if you're not in a hurry then waxing the needle is good (I keep pliers handy and use a thimble, mainly because it has superior grip).

[@Str4vv]

"Lubricate the entry - maybe it goes deeper" Matt Easton and Skall would be proud. Edit: "You can feel from the resistance, that it is the right depth." 🤣

[@sahildhama6315]

Let’s pull out and see what we’ve got.

[@TheWaylandern]

Really amazing to have an idea, and just trying it to see if it works. That's what experimental archeology is all about and it's fascinating

[@HansenSWE]

Tod, your channel, and others like it, are so far removed from my daily life but so pleasurable to watch that it can be such a great relief. You are a delight to listen to with all your projects and conundrums to uncover. Thank you for everything you are doing here on KZbin. Your videos can truly be like a stein of ice cold water in a scorching desert.

[@daviddesmondlee]

Good lord, I didn't know this. Tod you magnificent man

[@pd4165]

It's a bit obvious - there are lots of people pushing points through tough fabric and using wax to ease the way. I've seen what Tod wears - he's not big on repairing his jackets.

[@soerry2]

"SHAD, SHAAAAAD. You need to see this!"

[@RawkL0bster]

I can get behind a mini-series in Tod's Workshop called, "Does ________ on arrow heads do anything?" -Vaseline? -Chocolate? -French onion dip? -Ranch? -Used full synthetic motor oil?

[@SonsOfLorgar]

Cosmoline?

[@jacklonghearse9821]

Cum?

[@favkisnexerade]

fire?

[@MushVPeets]

Silicone lube? It is penetration we're after, after all.

[@okami36]

This was very interesting. I'd never thought of waxing arrowheads before, but it makes a lot of sense. Except we put teflon coatings on bullets because it reduces barrel wear. It has more or less nothing to do with penetration, especially since all of the teflon coated rounds I've encountered seemed to be hollowpoints.

[@dragoscoco2173]

I do not know about wax as it was somewhat more rare and more expensive. But i can assure you every bit of metal back in the day was greased or oiled for corrosion protection. I imagine that every arrow or bolt tip, though not particularly expensive in themselves would be oiled for storage and transport and nobody ever bothered with cleaning them before use. It might be that a clean non lubricated tip would actually be the exception raising wonder at the low performance it achieved.

[@TheCinderfang]

So possibly tallow instead of wax?

[@pd4165]

Anything that wasn't corrosive. Apparently lard is a bit acidic - I believe olive oil is too. Arrows were assembled - one person could make all the components but for industrial quantities you'd farm it out to specialists. So you had fletchers and...the others ;-) IIRC the heads were manufactured and bought in pots - the wooden shafts don't need much in the way of preservation so leaving the heads in a pot filled with fat would make sense. Assembling the components is a relatively quick and easy job, it's making the components that is time consuming.

[@dragoscoco2173]

@@pd4165 While some greases (solid fats) and oils might have a small acidic component. In time that would only make a patina and the acidity would drop somewhat. For storage purposes I doubt this would be a serious problem, but I am sure through observation the best ones would spring out. Rust was a given back then and storage was not really intended to go unchecked for years. About grease pots, that would require a high mass of grease, and that is seen just as wasteful as today. Rubbing iron and steel with the so called grease cloth (oil cloth- but not the drying kind) would suffice. This is still the case in carbon steel mechanical parts today, although oil baths are used for large quantities.

[@martinroth1263]

This is awesome. Geekishly faszinating! Thank you! Now I will have to try it out with my bow (recurve, 50lbs, 32'' draw... and using short botkins and broadheads). You got me hooked!

[@markfergerson2145]

The geek in me says "Ooh, that's really cool, I'd never have thought of that!". The ex-soldier in me says "Almost two inches still isn't a guaranteed instantly fatal or even debilitating wound, but four or five of them will put anyone out of action. A bucket of melted wax is a hell of a lot cheaper investment of time and effort than razor-sharpening every bolt and gives a better return- it's worth doing".

[@cav-spartan4201]

Mark Fergerson former army scout here, and I thought the exact same thing!!! You can take a man out of the military, but you can’t take the military out of the man!

[@pd4165]

You don't exactly sharpen needle bodkins - but medieval people had lots of time on their hands to fettle their gear - you'd expect bladed weapons to be the correct sharpness and everything to be over-decorated. As for the waxing idea - it's common knowledge in the sewing world - and in those days everybody knew how to sew.

[@Seth9809]

A lot of armor at the time had to be covered in beeswax to preserve it, so I imagine it was a useful resource kept close to armies of reasonable quality.

[@petrkinkal1509]

Also should help with corrosion I would assume.

[@EeekiE]

This channel is a fantastic resource and great entertainment. I don’t say that as someone that came here because of an interest in medieval arms, but as a random KZbinr that found this channel and because of it is developing an interest in medieval arms.

[@tods_workshop]

Glad to be of service - thanks

[@malarkthemad4300]

ohhh, been waiting on this since mythbusting

[@Poultryphile]

That was fantastic. I wouldn't have expected such a clear improvement.

[@MrRobbi373]

"Being the boss" sounds much less appealing in a medieval setting.

[@britishmuzzleloaders]

You could see in your eyes that you wanted to put on a huge grin at the end there! As would I have! Top shelf stuff, Todd!

[@MetalGamer666]

I also find that my depth penetration is not really there when going in dry.

[@GuntherRommel]

Alright, you got me. I've watched a few of your videos over the years, but your work with Joerg got me back over here again. Let's just dig through the archive now.

[@Kwodlibet]

"This is my crossbow. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My crossbow is my best friend, it is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me my crossbow is useless, without my crossbow I am useless..." - *Full Beeswax Jacket*

[@tods_workshop]

Nice!

[@jacklonghearse9821]

As a Marine 0311 infantry Rifleman, I approve of this comment.

[@Snagglepuss1952]

Very interesting, but the thing that truely amazes me is how effective fabric armour is. I love your no bs style thank you

[@orthografe]

Hey I worked a lot with those insulation foams and in my experience they have a hard time getting pierced or even cut (I lubricate my knife before cutting it or just use a saw), which could also affect your results of both this and the previous test. Do you think you could try and shoot the same bolt on different "stopper" materials see how it affects? I honestly believe the bolts could go deeper without the resistance of the foam

[@fair2guy]

youre right, they could have gone deeper- but for the sake of the test, uniformity is more important than depth of penetration. The test isolates variables so that the only thing we are observing is the relative change of penetration due to a lubricated tip. This answers only this question; "Should I wax(lubricate) the tip of my arrow for piercing cloth armor or not?" with a resounding yes! I think a better next test would be changing the surface- ie, does lubricating a (type of) arrow increase deflection on plate mail?

[@Poldovico]

@@fair2guy Although then you have to ask if the wax is helping with the gambeson or with the foam. It could be that against a flesh analogue the difference would not be nearly as marked.

[@fair2guy]

@@Poldovico Totally! I agree, I actually wrote a longer comment to Tod asking if he could test different arrows, lubricated, against their intended purpose- thick hide, plate, flesh analogue, etc. I think we can probably assume that "wet" targets probably dont need lubrication, but that the wax does help with rough surfaces like gambeson or clothing.

[@TuhonBillMcg]

Excellent video. Just a small note about teflon bullets from a retired law enforcement officer and former range officer for my dept. Teflon was used to coat bullets at the request of police agencies in the US because military armor piercing rounds did more damage to police gun barrels. It was the hard steel and sharp point (much like a bodkin) of the military rounds that made the bullet armor piercing, The teflon was added to help protect the barrels of police issue revolvers from damage, when compared to firing a military armor piercing round of uncoated hard steel. These armor piercing rounds were first designed by police officers in the 1960s to pierce car wind shields and doors , to aid police officers when a felon tried to crash a road block.

[@griffin5226]

I have heard some would mix beeswax and verdigis to fix the arrowheads to the shaft. The theory was that the head could not be pulled out because the beeswax would break and the verdigris acted as an insecticide for storage and additionally as a poison. Is there any truth to this?

[@tods_workshop]

Not sure really.

[@esclark75]

yes beeswax pine resin was used exactly like this. it would hold the arrow head on and if you tried to pull it out it would leave the arrowhead stuck in. they would also cut a channel in the arrowhead that would leave the wound open and a person would bleed out faster. you could also fill the void with many types of poison.

[@griffin5226]

@@esclark75 do you have sources?

[@pd4165]

I'm calling BS on the channel and the poison. Bodkins don't have channels and poisons on a battlefield? Europe* doesn't have poison arrow tree frogs and the tiny amounts of native poison an arrowhead can carry would not be fatal in the short term, though dipping in shit (or soil) would contaminate wounds for a potentially lethal infection. You might want to kill some of the enemy but putting them out of the fight is better..and you can't ransom dead bodies for much. As for channels on arrowheads - I've not seen one on a medieval arrowhead, but I've not seen them all. Link me up if you know otherwise. *Tod only deals with European weaponry so that's what I'm talking about.

[@onevastanus]

It's not often you can watch a vid with a question in the title and actually expect to get it answered. Thanks for that. Great work.

[@tods_workshop]

Glad to help!

[@Resvrgam]

Would this waxing technique extend to spearheads and other piercing weapons? Also; how long does the wax last? Is it only good for the first shot or would it have a small amount of residual efficacy for additional shots?

[@thrownswordpommel7393]

Maybe. You'd need to test.

[@pd4165]

Waxing helps needles get through tough fabrics (it'll be the same principle as the bodkin/gambison) at slow speeds - that's piercing. So a pointy spear would have some advantage, being waxed/lubed in some way. A broad headed spear tip less so. Prodding a gambison wearer with a rapier would probably be more effective than prodding with a broadsword - gambison is good against things with larger cross sections. Excepting cannon balls.

[@ala5530]

Regarding the follow-on shots- on arrowheads and bolts, probably not, given the intensity of energy transfer at point-of-impact but the odds that you're going to recover the ammunition for a follow-on shot with the same arrow/bolt without having the time or opportunity is pretty low (likely non-existent in a combat scenario, maybe in the case of an extended hunt, but it'd have to be *very* prolonged, especially considering you'd be carrying some wax to maintain your bowstring anyway). On spears or other piercing/thrusting weapons? Yes, some. It might be harder to do tests to determine how much, though, as unlike an arrow, a spear doesn't have a predetermined amount of kinetic energy with which to penetrate (most spear thrusts, your point-of-impact is going to occur while you're still pushing forward and adding energy to it), so any improvement is going to be harder to determine (and any follow-up attacks you make will be done when you're that little bit more tired, rendering any fall-off of effectiveness that little bit harder to notice), and somewhat subjective. I suppose you could rig up a wholly mechanical spear-thrusting machine (possibly spring powered?) and use that, but that's a lot of design and building work for one test. If you want to, though, go for it. I'd be interested to see the results.

[@stoictraceur4794]

This has been the most fascinating observation about crossbow bolts as far as I have seen.

[@LuxisAlukard]

2:54 Tod : "...wax lubricates the entry. Maybe it goes deeper, maybe not..." I'm going to try this myself

[@jacob1121]

Sorry to say that the penetrative depth is limited by the shaft length.

[@LeutnantJoker]

THIS is the stuff everyone hoped the internet would do. Help spread information, make experiements people do in their back yard available to a large community that can use that data for followup studies. Sometimes as an IT guy I feel we live more in the age of missinformation and nonsense, where it gets harder and harder to differentiate the bullshit from actual truth. The community around you, Skallagrim, Jörg Sprave, Modern History TV, Shadiversity, and a ton of other channels I cannot list right now but which we all know, are always giving me back hope that the internet is actually something positive still ;-) Great job.

[@DunkeysLongLostSon]

This is amazing! Never would have thought beeswax would prove such a useful addition to significantly increase arrow/bolt penetration. I'd love to see more exploration on this theory because it is fascinating to me.

[@PhotoBobBarker]

This is also a trick woodworkers use when dealing with old seasoned woods. It lubricates and helps prevent cracking on the way in, then cools and acts as a low-grade adhesive.

[@neilwarwick8653]

Hi Tod, great video. Many, many years ago when I was at school, after my physics teacher found out I was into archery, he would occasionally quote random archery facts to me during lessons. One being that blobs of beeswax were put onto bodkins to provide an initial 'stick' when impacting plate armour to reduce the chances of glancing off and then to lubricate the cut into the metal. I've never tested it, but I thought it might be of interest....

[@draven3838]

Wow that was really impressive, one that crossbow points are different and two that was made that big of a difference, thanks for sharing

[@mikefule]

Separate but related issue. I remember being told that mediaeval archers put a blob of clay on the tips of their arrows. This deformed on impact and made the tip grip for a split second giving the point time to dig into the armour rather than glancing off. I also remember being told that a similar technique was used in the 20th century with armour piercing shells: a soft nose of lead (or similar) that would deform on impact and just give the shell that split second longer to dig in rather than glance off. I have no idea if this is true but I remember that I considered the source to be reliable when I heard it 40 years ago.

[@proximo3257]

Incredible data, thank you. I was first alerted to how amazing gambeson and cloth armor is in general a few years ago, and your tests really show how it holds up against normal unmodified weaponry of the time. And wax! What amazing results!

[@DGFTardin]

You are becoming my favourite youtuber with this kinds of tests!

[@matt1631-l5x]

I only recently found your channel and I'm so glad I did. I've never wanted a medieval crossbow so bad

[@budahbaba7856]

Of all the testing that you see with ambiguous results, this was truly insightful. I could imagine an old soldier, clump of beeswax, prepping up their arrow/bolt heads by the fire. Tod, it would be easy to conduct a similar test with alternative substances like perhaps tallow, flax seed oil, etc etc that could imaginably be used as alternatives to wax.

[@Sabortooftigar]

Beeswax is also great at preventing rust, and repelling water in general so it seems very multi purpose practical. if they're just rubbed in some wax or dipped I would think it would help protect the arrow as well as the head, if you had enough around I suppose. Beeswax is also sometimes mixed with things like linseed oil for use on wood (though I haven't personally tried it) I definitely think it's possible one or more of materials like these proctectants would be used on arrows or other products depending on what was most available and useful in different contexts. I like beeswax for things like my walking staff or hatchet handles that I don't want to be oily, leave residues or be smelly. I want to protect and preserve the wood and it provides good grip as well and the water repellent effects of the beeswax help the grip too if it's raining or you get sweaty, as well as preserving it. Great video as always Todd

[@garethbaus5471]

Coating arrows in a thin layer of beeswax is also a great way to prevent a stockpile from rusting during long term storage. Even if they didn't know that it would improve penetration it is very likely that at least some people used wax.

[@charlesperry1051]

Another great video. As a research engineer I love watching experiments!

[@DisorderedArray]

On a related note, I once made a set of POC wood arrows with feather fletching, and I decided to wax and polish the shafts (as one does!) and they looked amazing. Until I shot them at compressed straw bosses. They penetrated to the same depth as unwaxed shafts, but completely locked into place. They had to be hammered through to extract them, stripping the fletching and bindings and smashing the nocks. Now I always leave shafts untreated.

[@macnutz4206]

I recently watched the video of You and Dr. Capwell discussing Agincourt. In that discussion, the topic of wax on arrow or bolt heads came up. So, I was thrilled to see this new video. I had thought the wax might have an effect since I was aware of the use of Teflon on bullets intended to defeat Kevlar, the modern equivalent of fabric armour. Criminals call teflon bullets "cop killers". You will do time if caught with them. Thanks much for this demonstration of the effect.

[@heitorp.c.1327]

Thank you for your quality content, accurate tests (pointing when it is and when it is not that much) and verifyable sources of information. As a history student it is really intresting to see that kind of practical test being done with quality.

[@smitbar11]

I'm a member of an NFAS field archery club, we bought some 2D targets from a guy in Australia that were crafted in Vietnam. They proved extremely tough and people struggle to remove arrows, compound bows and crossbows in particular but wooden arrows with screw on piles too. People started using arrow lube from Merlin archery etc and it did improve arrow removal and penetration so not too surprising to me :)

[@Warclam]

These arrow videos are so fascinating. I was thrilled to see another one pop up today. I must wonder, given the results of the last one, if you're going to try waxing flesh arrows? I expect it wouldn't give nearly the improvement it does to the bodkins, but it still might do something.

[@jaapbolt8780]

Can't remember the last time I was so skeptic about something and then so wrong o_O. This is stuff is so insanely interesting! To think it almost doubled the penetration.. just WOW! Cheers for making these videos Tod!

[@densamme1752]

and now on to tallow, lard and linseed oil. the other "standard" protective coatings for wood at the time. Tallow is the one I have my hopes for it becomes a very slick oil when heated.

[@johnormond8817]

Tallow maybe more of the working mans lubricant, true wax candles were very expensive, any military camp would have had animal fat in buckets.

[@manowartank8784]

This also show that fabric armor is indeed very effective against sharp weapons, even those needle bolts and similarly thrusting swords. It's the friction created by cutting through that grants stopping power. Reducing friction increase penetration, great observation Tod!

[@cdbc4023]

Absolutely Brilliant! Keep them coming Tod.

[@bt70a9]

This is the type of history i like to learn about. And these types of experiments are the best/most fun way to learn!

[@simonista8976]

Great experiment Tod. I'm always impressed by textile-armour, they really knew what they were doing back in the day. Keep it up!

[@brotherandythesage]

Wow another lesson from Tod about something I didn't even know I needed to know!

[@e.overbay7949]

Very interesting indeed. I really didn't think it would nake a difference with the blob on top but when u coated entire head with the wax i knew it would preform just didn't think it would be that much. Certainly the difference between a wound and a kill. Very nice awesome video

[@Zoulrage]

a wax coating would also prevent some rusting, so odds are they did it consistantly

[@MonkeyDespot]

Thanks Tod! Great test! I believe I had always heard the wax myth in regards to metal armor. The theory being that once penetration of the metal plate (or ring I suppose) had started, the wax would act as a lubricant and reduce friction to allow the arrow/bolt head to penetrate deeper.

[@Seekles]

Very interesting results! When I started the video I doubted it would do THAT much, but then I thought about the way waxing helps an awl penetrate into leather. Seems perfectly reasonable to assume something you do on leatherwork would be applied to arrow heads as well :)

[@dangermouse957]

Great video Todd I don’t think anybody is doing these experiments goes to show how doing practical experiments highlights facts and fictions great channel mate

[@frenchfries5445]

i observed the same effect in target archery. In some clubs they have very cheap targets made of pressed straw (like 20cm thick) for everyday practice. They are way cheaper than etafoam targets and last way longer, but pulling out carbon arraws was always a pain. In fact the heat on impact was so high, that some fibres of the staw kinda burned to the carbon. You really hat to seperate them with a knife again. Our solution was to use silicon oil. You can get these in a box with a foam and it will last for years. It was significantly easier to get the arrows back out though they penetrated deeper. Obviously people back in the days were just as smart, only with less materials :D

[@Stoic_Zoomer]

Hope you're keeping safe and healthy tod. I'm envious that you can make a living doing something so cool if I lived in the UK I would beg to be your Apprentice!

[@qwerfa]

I honestly didn't expect to see that much of a difference between waxed and unwaxed. Great video again.

[@ivyssauro123]

Bloody hell it worked! Cool piece of medieval ingenuity!

[@rons3634]

Why do I find this stuff so interesting? I have no idea. It helps to have the videos done by someone who knows what he's talking about and has a good voice for it.