Premack, Dog Training and Transfer of Value #90

Has your dog ever been so overexcited they just can’t seem to listen, and it’s frustrating for you? Dogs who want to go swimming, for a car ride, or a walk might be so intent on what they want they might not even sit when you ask, and you know they know how to sit! There are tools to fix the challenge, and you can use what your dog loves to do. We’re looking at the science of the Premack Principle and how you can transfer the value for what your dog loves to you.
In the episode you'll hear:
• How my puppy could not listen when she was outside with the other dogs.
• The IF and THEN of contingencies in dog training.
• About Premack’s Principle.
• Why to think about all the things that your dog loves that are safe.
• How to use contingencies to your advantage.
• Why the value your dog has for what they love transfers to what you want.
• What my dog Buzz taught me through his love of swimming and water.
• How the value Buzz had for swimming transferred to our relationship.
• Why the low probably behavior needs to be achievable for your dog when you start.
• The reason you need to be clear on what behaviour you want for clarity for your dog.
• The importance of your dog's history of reinforcement for the low probability behavior.
• Why not to repeat cues and how to lower the intensity of what your dog wants with distance.
• How I used Reinforcement Zone (RZ) with my puppy, This! so she could run with dogs.
• About training an excellent recall in all locations.
• How to play my new game called “I Think You Must Be Lost”.
• Why to break things down, so everyone has success.
• What you can easily do today to start premacking.
Resources:
Book: Shaping Success - dogsthat.com/product/shaping-...
Premack’s Principle (Wikipedia) - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premack...
Podcast Episode 86: How to Train Unmotivated or Overexcited Dogs - • How to Train Unmotivat...
Podcast Episode 53: Stop Your Dog Pulling on Leash and Start Walking Together - • Stop Your Dog Pulling ...
Blog Post: How Do I Train My Dog To Come When Called? - susangarrettdogagility.com/20...
Podcast Episode 11: The Power of Permission in Dog Training - • The Power of Permissio...
Podcast Episode 68: 3 Easy Tricks Every Dog Should Know - • 3 Easy Tricks Every Do...
KZbin #shorts Video The Thing Before The Thing (Walking with This!) - • The Thing Before The T...
P.S. Subscribe to our KZbin Channel so you get notifications of new videos!
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Dogs That is brought to you by Susan Garrett and the Say Yes Dog Training Team.
Susan Garrett’s interest in animal behaviour started at the University of Guelph where she earned a Bachelor of Science majoring in Animal Science. Since then she has developed into a preeminent dog trainer and canine sports instructor and competitor. Susan is one of the most successful agility competitors of the last three decades. She has won multiple Gold Medals at National or World Championship events with every dog she has ever owned over the past 30 years.
A natural teacher and an entertaining speaker, Susan is world renowned as a leading educator of dog trainers. Her understanding of how to apply science-based learning principles to both competitive and family pet dog training has been pivotal in changing how dogs are trained.
Susan is now helping many thousands of dog owners in 132 countries have the best relationship possible with their dogs. The real joy for her comes from bringing confidence to dogs and their owner through playful interactions and relationship building games that are grounded firmly in the science of how animals learn.
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Our Website: dogsthat.com
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There’s always something new happening at Dogs That, so if you’d like to be the first to know, visit our website, register to receive updates, and we'll keep you in the loop.
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[@annettefry9347]

These podcasts should be required listening for every pet owner. The wealth of information is unbelievable. Susan, thank you for your generosity in sharing all this for free. You truly have a teacher's heart in wanting to impact dogs and their owners.

[@ammi_10]

I have recommended Susan's podcasts and programs for several people since I discovered this a few months ago. 🙂❤️ I have often been asked to help with dog training since 1975 but I just recommend Susan now.😉

[@sagebishop499]

Love this , super clear description of this really helpful game. Thank you very much

[@danaflick8915]

As a dog trainer, I’ve listened to a ton of dog training podcasts. Shaped by Dog is revolutionary! These games are the bees knees & Susan is easy to understand and listen to! Love that Muttley moment 😂😂😂

[@ventoefuracao]

Finally understood the premack principle!!! Thank you, Susan!!!🙏🙏✊✊👏👏👏👏👏👏

[@DogsThat]

Glad it was helpful! ❤️

[@pascaleburnet7583]

Love the "mama is lost" game! On my training plan for the next few days... we are going to have so much fun! Thank you Susan.

[@jobunton8876]

On our walk this evening, poor recall reared it's head for the second time this week. Back to the drawing board. I needed to think of a game for some intentionally walks and just us two in ordered to iron out this annoying set back...then 'voila', Susan telepathically communicates with Podcast #90. I've now listened to the theory, tomorrow the practice. Thanks Susan 😊

[@indythedancinghovawart4883]

I started to watch your videos a couple of weeks ago and they are simply AMAZING! I have been reading and educating myself about training through workshops and seminars for years now but your videos still provide me with so many useful information and it is such a pleasure to listen to you!! Thank you so much! Acutally I loved the sauna analogy! :D

[@andreajennings2967]

At long last an explanation (that I can understand) of exactly what transfer of value is. Thank you. 🙂

[@jannellmeagher638]

I love listening to you! You just make sense!!! Doesn't matter what your video. There is something in every video to learn, relearn, or change. You rock!

[@DogsThat]

Thank you, Jannell! It's great to have you in our community 💕

[@denisejerue145]

The “It’s your choice game” works so well with high value rewards for my 5 month old puppy.. Now I will try to get an extended “sit” using the high value reward of going outside.. Excited to try this technique 😁 The higher value reward= increased focus and cooperation

[@fengliu2791]

Susan is a TRUE dog training pro

[@Chahalsonali]

This is one of your BEST podcast or maybe applied to me right now

[@annlincoln3379]

What a great video! Susan makes her ideas so clear & breaks them down so that they're easy to remember & apply.

[@judycollins2601]

This is probably the BEST podcast I have listened to (and the bar is pretty high as I have listened to most of Susan's podcasts) My 9 month old puppy is very excited by balls. He will sit before I throw the ball but the second I raise my hand to throw it, he is OFF. This happens regardless of the fact that I don't throw that ball, even to the extent that I walk around the entire park with the ball in my pocket. I have to admit though that when I first taught my dog to sit, I did not teach him to stay. (Unfortunately I didn't discover Susan until a few months ago) so his sit (stay) is still a work in progress even without distractions. Also after trying the sit stay with a ball and not succeeding, I decided that my dog was telling me that this was too hard for him so then I did the unforgiveable and threw the ball as long as I got a sit. Now I have listened to the Premack podcast I know I have done the wrong thing. Can I now correct this? Is it OK to hold his collar as I throw the ball? I expect not as it is "force". Perhaps I should just ask for another behaviour before throwing he ball (eg nose touch) until I have got sit (stay) off pat at home? Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you

[@VickyArcher-wz7tr]

Great question, I’m keeping an eye on the response as I would love to know too😊

[@rachaelkelly7969]

I used this at gates. I only approached if my dog was sitting and not jumping on the gate. If he got up, I would back up. He learned to sit until I got through the gate and released him.

[@lisarichmond1100]

I've watched this video a couple of times and some of the others and the penny has finally dropped! Definitely going to try this now! Thank you 🙏

[@allaboutcanines]

I love how you explain this principal, and you are so encouraging! Thank you.

[@janetrains83]

Really well broken down into easy-understandable steps! Thank you Susan!

[@carynrobson7299]

With my foster our new game is "CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?" 😁👍❤

[@wendycarey3656]

LOVED, LOVED, LOVED this podcast episode. Best explanation of premack I've heard. Thank you!

[@2coolBorderCollies]

Thank you.. thank you for helping to remind me that I don't and should not put up with behavior from my dogs that is driving me crazy.... like barking at the door to go to the car for whatever adventure that day awaits. In our hot indoor afternoon training, I decided this would be a good time to work on this. Within 5 minutes I had a quiet dog sitting calmly in reinforcement zone. In another few minutes could open the door and walk out CALMLY.. NO BARKING :)... AMAZING.. Now the consistency.

[@azogal53]

Whoa. Gonna have to watch this again. There are a couple of things we need to work on... Thanks! 🍪🍪🍪🍪🍪

[@mariebutler6619]

❤

[@suescheffelaar5977]

Brilliant! I didn't even realise that I was using premack commands but seemingly I do. What I don't do is the refinement you talk about, so fabulous I shall add this in. I do a similar exercise with Quincy who loves to play with his friends. So before he can go he must sit and wait whilst I unclick his lead I then release him to his friend. I no longer have to even recall and Quincy now often doesn't even bother to get near to his friends, he rushes off towards the dog but circles back before he gets there and he goes into middle (one of our reinforcement zones) and as a reward he gets his ball. I then release him back out. I also play the 'I am lost' game and have done this since Quincy was a pup as it's an amazing proximity game - he's always on the lookout to see where his crazy mama is going to next - she's so unpredictable you have to watch her (me!) the whole time. Thank you Susan, I shall refine both games

[@bwebster4835]

Such a great video. I love the way your present the information. Never boring and I usually laugh at some point

[@vickiyoung7809]

Excellent! Thank you.

[@jogrin-yates9722]

Great advice as usual

[@kathymccullough9152]

thank you...just the lesson I needed tonight for the puppy's lessons tomorrow!

[@magellanish]

I feel so related to you susan! my 10months puppy when running with other dogs, just ignores me!! thank you

[@patriciabrowne9450]

Really loved this one. Lots of work ahead. But having fun too. Are you considering adding this game as a bonus on current recallers which I am doing now

[@dawnbrandt5927]

I'm inspired....thank you. Will report back!

[@AgileCait]

I’ve been trying to get Premack to work for quite A while with my now nine month old male Airedale puppy. The behavior that I want is for him to lie down in his crate, let me open the door, clip the leash on the collar, stand up, and then release him. He could do this before he became a teenage maniac!. However, there is an extenuating circumstance. We are in the middle of getting a medical diagnosis of his incontinence problem. If we make it take too long for him to come out of the crate, he will pee in there. So I feel we have a conflict; either we work on pre-Mac to let him come out of the crate and then go outside to pee and to have fun after that, or and this is what my husband does, open the crate door, lasso the puppy with a slip lead, and rush outside before he peas on the floor. I see this as to mutually exclusive behaviors; we either prioritize getting him out of the crate and out of the house before he pees or we work on having him lie in the crate and let us get that leash on. At this point, since getting the Leeshan can be a safety situation, I would be willing to let him Pee in the crate while we are putting on the leash. But my husband wants to avoid peeing in the crate at all cost. Recently our puppy has been trying to leap out of the crate that is in the car as soon as the crate door opens. He refuses to maintain the down until the door is open. This is a dangerous situation if he were to get loose and run into the street. I am open to any suggestions! I realize this has been going on so long, that it will take quite a while to fix. Hopefully the specialist veterinarian will come up with some solution to his incontinence problem. What are your suggestions? Thanks!

[@ammi_10]

So I have a question so I shall begin with a brief background: my 6 y/o miniature American (Australian) Shepherd that I have had for about 2 months was initially prepared as a show/ breeding dog when she was a puppy. The breeder never showed her nor bred her because her breeding program changed so the dog was just a kennel dog and didn't even have a name until I got her. She LOVES me! She is very overweight and so I have to be careful with the treats I give so I usually give praise. She stays close by off leash and had an amazing recall. Since she's lost 10 lbs her energy level is much better but I still haven't found anything she'd rather do or eat or whatever that be with me. When I first got her she was tired after walking around the block so sports are for the future as we're working on her fitness level. 🙄She has mild separation anxiety but she's getting better as she now knows that I come home after work and we connect then. She had very unclean teeth but dental chews are helping so hopefully we can avoid any issues with that. Because of that I haven't tried to teach tug yet but I will soon. She picked up "touch" super quickly and the same with the perch work but won't engage with "it's yer choice" once I close my hand. She "accepts" that she's not going to get anything and turns away. 🤷‍♀️ My question: how do I get her interested in anything other than me? How do I transfer the value of being with me to an activity? I have noticed she does engage in a little play posturing in the yard now that she's lost some weight. I plan on introducing agility once she's in better shape and looses another 10 lbs or so. Should I just give it more time? 🤔

[@simonnelauwers9178]

can you tell me the difference of th premack principle and operant conditioning ? Or is that the same ? thanks xxxxx simonne

[@Di4knight]

I love how you did this … so I have a very laid back, couch potato dog. Is not wild about toys (yet) not superfood motivated. But let’s say I have got her to the stages where I can call her to reinforcement area all around house, backyard, my horse arena. Etc. we live out in the country … I take her for walks 3x a week and maybe 3x a month we come across someone else walking there dog … obvious Y I can’t have my dog loose and ask them to let me see if my dog will come …. Birds, bunnies etc are no interest to her … so I have no BIG value to work with. I have done a lot of obed in my arena … she does great til a person or a person with dog walks by … my recall means squat … and as you said I might as well not existed … how do you take your scenario of training into mine when there is no high value to her.. I have just recently started her working in the reinforcement zone beside me.

[@DogsThat]

Hi Diana, there's a lot of things we can use as reinforcement, take a look through this playlist on reinforcers as there's lots of ideas - kzbin.info/aero/PLphRRSxcMHy1IUj_4P54q2PIuLNtnXjFO

[@silverleaf79]

Any tips on finding behaviours your dog loves doing enough that it's a good enough reward? I can easily tell you multiple objects that my papillon loves, but not actions (with the possible exception of running the A frame at agility class - but I don't have an A frame at home to use). And what happens if they just choose to do the high frequency behaviour without permission? What if This! had simply wandered off to do her own thing? What if Buzz had decided not to recall from the water but just continued to play, reinforcing himself for not doing what you asked?

[@kathiseaman]

Just to clarify, after your click you do not treat correct? The reinforcement for coming back to the reinforcement zone is the release/permission to go play.

[@kensithedog2053]

Usually that's what people do, I don't know about Susan Garrett, but yeah, that's usually the case. Your dog probably won't take a treat in this moment. Your click doesn't necessarily mean treats, it just means that good things will follow

[@amybergquist9021]

This explains why I can't get my puppy to sit before I open the door to go inside - he loves to stay outside! He does not see value in going inside! It's mosquito season, though, so I have to get the issue sorted.

[@katsim6799]

probably not a big deal going in, just let him in, cuz you are what is of value inside. or biscuits. my dogs only have to sit while Im unlocking the door at the end of a walk. Sit before going out is for physical safety, coming in,not a big thing unless there is a reason like unlocking the door.

[@TheLucybme]

This is great! But what if all the things my dog seems to want most are not things he can have at all (safely)? For example I don't live in a place where I can let my dog run free or chase birds... I worry this technique will be less effective with lower value desires of the dog and I don't want to always cause my dog frustration by having to deny him the things he wants... any ideas for modifications?

[@DogsThat]

Great question Leslie, consider what "safe" things your dog loves? Belly rubs, a game of tug, going for a car ride, going for a walk there must be something he loves enough to get excited when he anticipates that it is about to happen? Start premacking these smaller things, that lays a foundation of critical thinking in his mind for the rare opportunity you get to use it for the big things like bird chasing when you do find a safe environment. Meanwhile, safety always comes first. We can do things to lower our dog's frustration by re-directing them to high value rewards like a game of chase me, or tug or hand touces for big pieces of meat. But in the end, as much frustration as it may cause our dogs to not be allowed off-leash to chase a critter across a busy road. we have to be the guardians of their safety first.

[@judycollins2601]

My 9 month old puppy is very excited by balls. He will sit before I throw the ball, but the second I raise my hand to throw the ball he is OFF. This happens no matter how many times I don't throw that ball - even when I then walk around the park with the ball in my pocket. Is it OK to restrain him by the collar as I throw the ball and then give him the release Cue? Or is there anything else you can suggest?

[@judycollins2601]

Sorry Leslie. Just realised that I posted this in the wrong place!

[@TheLucybme]

@@judycollins2601 that's ok! I'm following this thread to learn from other dog owners :)

[@biggeordie245]

@@DogsThat I am struggling to find an appropriate reward behaviour. My dog has allergies and exceptionally itchy skin, he hates pats and belly rubs. He loves dogs but loses control and plays far too rough to allow him to run up to and jump on dogs, he will play tug and fetch but literally only for a very short time before losing interest. He will run at my side but jumps up and grabs / bites my hands or arms and I am far too old to run far now anyway.

[@pennyjowagner290]

I know the answer, but I have to ask: With you requiring your dogs to be IN reinforcement zone - if we really work on that (your Pup ping-ponging back & forth til he comes back to be " on your seam:).... will be have a problem wanting out dogs to go OUT and hunt - maybe quartering 100-500 yards away.? Thank you.

[@DogsThat]

Hi Penny Jo, we train go outs as a behavior. Susan has insights in this video relating to where reinforcement is placed - kzbin.info/www/bejne/g4PSmYdontSAi6c Here's a short clip for you - kzbin.info/www/bejne/gJjQe2iclNpob5Y

[@alidaruiz9258]

Susan HELP! I do IGP/IPO. How can I shape head up heeling. Please!!! Can i sign up for a course with you. I've taken your recallers class in the past I'm currently signed up for homeschool the dog I would love to get private online lessons with you. Luring does not work for my Mali pup in heeling. I know you helped the girl who ended up winning the igp World Championships can you help me?

[@DogsThat]

Hi @Alida Ruiz you can use targeting, and we have a playlist to help: kzbin.info/aero/PLphRRSxcMHy3ylCyQ2bJQSCwo_ERiVHj3

[@makinois]

1 Is it okay to mix up the formal obedience training session with this? Mine likes other dogs and frustrated. I'm afraid to use premack for obedience if she confuses and look for dogs at trial. Or should I save formal obedience cue, and do different session like puppy class and do play interruption then play, to teach play as a reward? 2 Can I ask the dog to look at me for permission to play? I taught to stare at dog by doing It's Yer Choice in front of dog so I had to change to sit front and watch me or play, whatever. If I reach her halter close to neck she would look back anyway. But I don't want to encourage staring another dogs at first. Then I have to redirect or take step back. Its not a good habit as her goal is getting close to the dog so it creates frustration. I want to see how regular pet dog is improved by doing Susan's method in each session. Anybody please upload videos of dog reactive dog training if you are doing Susan's method and being successful. I'm stuck...

[@johncspine2787]

I get so disappointed in myself when I try to say fit a new halter instead of a collar, and 17 wk pup decides biting is a viable option..then I..react badly and push his lips under his teeth to make him stop..I put him back in his crate (w a small treat) cause that’s never a punishment, and I waited a while, got him back out, and just played ball with him until he got tired.I’m patient w everything.except..biting..he’s really trying my patience…

[@windywilliamson5069]

This I have to do she is or should I say I have been getting lazy and she thinks getting let off leash means go play instead of recall. So this is a good game.