Doing good or Sounding Good: A Skeptical Look at ESG!

[@robertshore6742]

Very insightful, many thanks for taking the time to post these videos Professor.

[@TGGWarehouse]

The way ESG is pushed is very little different to how Christian missionaries used to (and still do albeit on a lesser scale) spread the "Word of the Lord" in "heathen" countries. I used to blindly believe people who loudly banged the ESG drums. It does sound good and makes me wanna join the dance, the intentions are definitely noble. The implementation however, as so often is the problem with humanity because of our impatience, is skewed. This is a brilliant video, as always 😊 thank you for continuously sharing wise knowledge for free!

[@siddhantmaheshwari9399]

Hello sir, I am a 12th grade student from Ahmedabad , India. I have been watching your videos and learning from them, for over 5 months now! I am applying ED to NYU Stern ! I wish I get accepted and get to meet you in person and attend your Lectures. Your valueable insights through this platform, have enhanced my passion for finance. Thank you for all of it!

[@sakshis-6015]

hey did u get NYU?

[@saumyadityabose]

Absolutely aligned Prof. Damodaran! Brilliant insights.

[@kubilaycamurdan8863]

I really like the way that the Professor always become the voice of common sense.

[@kerrinnaude2777]

One of your most elucidating videos. I have been trying to get my thoughts in line as to why it seemed suspect from so many angles, but you laid out a great approach. Thanks Professor

[@JuanHernandez-im2jl]

Professor thanks for your honest assessment of ESG - I think you nailed it. I agree if ESG lowers cost of capital expected returns should be lower, and conversely if anti-ESG increases the cost of capital the expected returns should be higher - except if anti-ESG increases risk to the businesses free cash flows. The question you rightly pose is how long is the transition period - how long does it take the market to fully price in any ESG factors. There should be a short period of time where first movers should capture a brief ESG premium if the ESG factor truly adds value or helps to avoid risks. From my perspective the biggest case for ESG is the potential for catastrophic risk avoidance. In that case you would want to make sure your ESG screen is properly assessing risks of faulty oil wells (insufficient capex), power lines, and critical infrastructure at risk of wildfire, flooding, etc. The market should be pricing in these types of risks anyway but the challenge is in any given year the risk might be too low to factor in. During the financial crisis the market mis-priced systemic risk. There is probably similar mis-pricing around companies or infrastructure subject to catastrophic risk. Ex-ante we may be pricing for the 100 year flood that happens every five years ex-post.

[@gabrielmendonca1698]

Very good research gathering. Thank you!

[@user-dr.prashant]

Awesome that's called awareness 😘😘😘😘

[@apscoinscurrenciesmore7599]

Interesting video 🌷Profits are most crucial for valuation of companies. Only highly profitable and valued companies can afford to carry out esg😎👍

[@kadalkol]

While as a scientist I am inclined to agree with your research, at the end of your video you made a point that made me believe in ESG funds. People ARE buying products from companies that promise to be better environmentally and socially. Your argument about facebook reaching a market high is accurate but as Yogi Berra said, it aint over till its over. In the end, if I make 1% less than the broader market because it made me feel good about myself, its worth the price I paid. Humans are not all ubermensch that behave like 'economists' and maybe that is why fund managers take advantage of us. Thank you for another useful video.

[@andorealc6218]

kadalkol I think what prof damodaran is advocating is that we through collectively consume more with ethical companies, so that you can enjoy the same outcome of ethical investment via investing in cheapest index fund. Rather than giving management fee to ESG consultant for their questionable methodology. If people keep buying into ESG funds marketing gimmick it’s only going to fund active managers’ Porsche 911, instead of true welfare of society.

[@davidbenjamin8347]

Yes, consumers are not homo-economicus, and same with employees. Why do you think Damodaran works making 6 figures from NYU when he could be making 7 or 8 in the private sector?

[@simonboland]

Should be required viewing for any politician or company executive.

[@jamesbyrne9312]

Great talk..I will say that relative value placed on different companies relating to each persons opinion is not new. The price of gold for instance depends on sentiment etc. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying to do good things through ESG.

[@voxlabnet]

Absolutely great content

[@temitopeoluwasemilore740]

Thank you Sir !!

[@marine0341]

Preach !!!!

[@ssvv1]

Thanks for the presentation, professor. Only one question, how do you account for climate risk to value companies correctly? One example as you valued Vale some time ago, climate change will mean higher flooding risk on their operations with potentially new disasters, how do you account for that risk in your models?

[@AswathDamodaranonValuation]

You just did. That flooding risk will create higher costs for mining projects and lower their value.

[@finleyzo5921]

Aswath Damodaran, Is that not in support of incorporating ESG into your analysis - had one been mindful of the negative business consequences of climate change to corporate value one could’ve earned excess returns.

[@AswathDamodaranonValuation]

Finley Zo Why is that ESG? How is incorporating a higher flooding cost in earnings and cash flows any different from incorporating higher labor costs or taxes? It is best not to start creating special categories for expected expenses when you don’t need to?

[@marlon9531]

@@AswathDamodaranonValuation Is not incorporating scenarios for higher flood/environmental degradation costs adding an ESG lens into your analysis? ...whether that be from higher labor costs (perhaps more man hours are required to work in inhospitable terrain), higher capex for resiliency, or a flood reserve account on the I/S.

[@aniketgaonkar4804]

@@marlon9531 Companies were already reporting these risks (climate, labor inflation etc. before ESG came into vogue. Investors were already considering them when analyzing the intrinsic value (through higher costs or lower growth rate for example).

[@widmer64]

Very useful indeed! Thank you!

[@aconsideredmoment]

Thank you for the integrity to see something and say something. Prologis CEO rightly notes it must improve the bottom line otherwise it is a marketing expense. If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with... Companies that maximize profits minimize waste/muda. TPM long predates ESG.

[@thesinzer]

Agenda agnostic analysis is so refreshing. Thank you Prof!

[@marshmallow6921]

Totally spot on in every sense. ESG supported mainly by casual factors like fund flows and style factors. Thanks Prof Damodaran!

[@roberthammer2335]

Great analysis. Thank you for tackling this hotly debated topic. I very much appreciate the insight.

[@gautamsharma045]

thank you professor ❤️

[@MarieCrossbow]

Very interesting video

[@Lessdeth14]

You are asking the wrong question. It's not a matter of whether companies that are doing well find it easier to do good - the question is whether they are perceived to be. Halo effects tend to quite clearly indicate the latter, not the former. CSR rankings follow performance, not the other way around. Further, the entire hypothesis of ESG/CSR is that customers would think actively about brands. They don't. In fact, the entire point of brand is to act like a mental shortcut.

[@AswathDamodaranonValuation]

You are right and this is going to be true of any ranking approach. Once companies learn how the rankings are done, they will game the system. I have seen that happen with business schools with rankings, and how behavior gets altered to play the ratings game.

[@whatwelearned]

I think that's generally true but as we've seen from, as an example, Facebook some investors ARE looking at actual actions and reacting accordingly.

[@AswathDamodaranonValuation]

And how exactly has FB been punished? It’s market cap just hit an all time high last month, tracking revenues and profits that also did so. In fact, FB is the perfect example of how ESG is all hat, no head.

[@dhruvshah2800]

Agreed here in India generally a lot of investors invest in companies they feel safe in and companies like TATAs and WIPROs who are doing their bit and you can see how investors are content with earning less than in other companies

[@krishnanunnimadathil8142]

@@dhruvshah2800 The nauseating sanctimony of do-good corporates is even worse in India. Tata is especially to blame. Having profited for well near a century from captive access to the world's second-largest consumer market thanks to impossibly high protective tariffs, investors in Tata should be livid that they did not make even more money! That they have the gall to parade, after all this, their lesser earnings than other companies is the height of false advertising that anyone could have dreamt of! "Where did the money go?" asks the investor in Tata. Out comes the reply, "On painting a few houses down the street because I felt so." "But you are supposed to be making steel" "Where are my returns and where's my money?" Response from director "India is a great country and Tata takes pride in its role in building the nation and giving back." I am not sure who said it, but he was not far from the mark when he said "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." I might add, ESG/CSR also.

[@sasodekar]

I had been working on ESG aspects as well as some such jargons past few years while advisor, I sometimes wonder, rating firms comes up with such concept after every short while to grow their revenue. Result cost of business goes up. Even today ESG is manageable E was manageable already... and many a times non disclosures can also be manageable now. Its really dark area still. But good to have info about what comes up. I feel if any company value its employee as an asset and treat them well, its the best company to invest. I wonder, if there is any rating agency that have come up with such concept?

[@anuragraju5585]

Thank you for clearing the clutter on ESG!

[@acube123]

Is it worth considering ESG as a form of marketing budget? Could better marketing budget help companies move the needle on their profit? Could ESG reduce the cost of Marketing? Or if ESG helps employees be motivated to "work more" ... because they believe in the "mission"; could it be that taking a ESG position may be cheaper than paying for the next best alternative to motivate them?

[@AswathDamodaranonValuation]

Amitanand Aiyer Would you spend tens of millions on marketing if it did not pay off in higher sales? Right now, there is no evidence that it is. Would you spend tens of millions on motivating employees if it does not show up as lower turnover and higher productivity? Right now, there is no evidence that it is.

[@acube123]

Makes sense. Thanks for the reply.

[@akhilandasu7544]

Professor, there is evidence of long-term ESG focussed decisions paying off, such as Merck giving away free drugs to cure river blindness in Africa in the late 1980s. The subsequent decade saw it ranked as one of the most admired companies in the world and Merck saw an influx of researchers joining its ranks citing the Mectizan donation programme as their reason

[@AswathDamodaranonValuation]

Akhil Andasu I am sorry but anecdotal evidence is a dangerous road to go down.

[@nickfleming3719]

Motivated to work more? Maybe half, the other half will be angry they're helping an ambiguous cause that they don't believe in. I only see it as creating conflict within the company

[@haydenwilsonx]

Brilliant insights.

[@robc86]

Maybe this constrained optimal example in a different domain will be of interest to you? Sending emails typically has a very low/zero variable cost which is one of the reasons we all get loads of emails. Marketers have been optimising for conversion rates and excluding customers thinking they're growing revenues. At best they maintained a high % of possible revenue and gained a very marginal benefit from fewer upset customers. I believe in high quality communications as a customer, but commercially i want to reach the larger audience (unless their is evidence to show otherwise).

[@alexroge6495]

If ESG was so great for businesses, they wouldn’t feel the need to design a marketing program around every good deed they do.

[@dallasjohnson3236]

Perhaps both could be true. ESG increases core value, but marketing and making sure everyone knows can lower your cost of capital.

[@alexroge6495]

Dallas Johnson perhaps.

[@krishnanunnimadathil8142]

It is called sanctimony. It has been around for millennia - raid the town and plunder; then host a charity ball.

[@kerrinnaude2777]

Quite. I learned to be suspicious of ESG when working in advertising, selling financial services products/investments - while actually knowing something about finance :)

[@RajVaswaniRox]

Loved your take, your conclusion got me thinking deep.

[@JuanHernandez-im2jl]

I’ve been thinking about the second derivative of ESG or what Soros might call reflexivity. If large institutional investors and individual clients move money to ESG will policy makers feel more emboldened to approve more dramatic policy options? For example The state of California will mandate EV’s after 2035 - maybe pension funds and investors in the state are already ESG aware, and therefore policies like these hurt constituents pocketbooks less? Some of this could be self fulfilling.

[@davidbenjamin8347]

It's in a company's best interest to lobby for these changes if it's in a better competitive position to operate under them. In the example you suggest, not all companies will survive a shift to EV, so those that do will command more profit.

[@evank27]

Sri Lanka

[@ashutoshsingh221]

11:00 all truth nothing but the truth

[@GNBcorporal]

Thank you for takeling this sensitive topic its an insightful analysis. some might call you morally deficient for doing so but I personally think an ugly truth is preferable to a pretty lie. A business is a vehicle for generating value for its shareholders. Those are the incentives and these do not always align with doing good or bringing about positive social change, pretending that it does does not help. i am also not convinced that the consultants, advocates and lawyers who promote esg have the public intrest at hart. I believe under the cloak of esg a lot of government lobbying has been done that benefits narrow interest at the expense of the public. I also agree that the companies who spend most on esg are often large corporations often in tech who have a lot of excess cash or access to capital to spend on these types of projects but one does need to ask if it actually creates value for the shareholders. Lastly, thank you for posting your lectures and content its been invaluable to me.

[@nickfleming3719]

I always go back to Peter Drucker the purpose of a business is to create a customer

[@krishnanunnimadathil8142]

Sir, would it be right to say that the messaging of ESG credentials works in sectors where the consumers can afford higher costs associated with the demands of ESG? For instance, Body Shop is all about ESG and hugging a koala. Or Organic Yoghurt - the margins are astronomical compared to ordinary yoghurt. Is it too early to conclude that high morals and high moralizing works well in an era of relative plenty ie when consumers can take it? It will really put to the test when the real deal - the consumer - struggle to cough up the costs involved.

[@krishnanunnimadathil8142]

The father of a good friend of mine - a shrewd, sharp businessman - once advised me on giving money as a donation to a "dera" (religious gathering). He said it is useless to simply donate thinking of the almighty and doing so anonymously; instead, show the coin you are donating to every single one in the room so that they all know about the act of you making the donation, and that they talk about your magnanimity in doing this. He may as well have advised those biggies on the ESR ranking!

[@phantomcreamer]

I'm from a religious region where it was forbidden to do so. That the act of bragging and showing odf meant it was not an act of charity, but an act of selfishness.

[@krishnanunnimadathil8142]

@@phantomcreamer Most acts of charity are for showboating. Doesn’t mean a charitable impulse is bad; just that most of it which happens is for the express purpose of showboating one’s largesse. Being religious or non-religious has little to do here. The religious indeed are oftentimes the masters of gratuitous showboating of piety and sanctimony - frankly sickening.

[@sourabhbhattacharya3411]

Very good and apt headline.....

[@sak079]

Thankyou Professor Damodaran. I am interested in reading some of the studies you mentioned under "Constrained Optimal" as it relates to ESG - any recommendations on good papers to start reading on this?

[@PercyWellington]

The most valuable asset of a company is its employees. When a company has better social policies and has a mission that betters society, it creates an incentive for employees to work there. Companies with stronger ESG have less turnover and can attract/keep better employees. People who are better off mentally are also better able to perform than someone who is stressed and/or resents their employer.

[@anant0089]

you awesome love u sir :)

[@yu-anchen5714]

Love this video! Makes a good sense.

[@stylezNsmilez]

8:19 you can add fighting/ending racism to bullet point three in this latest edition of wokeness

[@RicardoVladimirWong]

agree

[@AswathDamodaranonValuation]

Nope. Not touching that topic with a ten-foot pole.

[@anthonyesquire9830]

@@AswathDamodaranonValuation I agree. A very delicate topic that even the most rational and nuanced could never wrestle without backlash.

[@BradKaellner]

@@AswathDamodaranonValuation you'd probably get less backlash talking about systemic racism than valuing Tesla ;)

[@hradayeshk06]

Analyses of ESG investments have an inherent drawback because they are backward looking. The problem is compounded by the difficulty in assessing impact of long term climate change, not to mention the skepticism of climate change naysayers. Questions around ESG should not focus on profitability alone, but also sustainability. We have all seen how markets fail from time to time and how governments rush in to prop them up. The reasoning provided is that no intervention would mean more widespread harm to economy. Central banks can print infinite money but cannot reverse impact of global warming, if it goes on unimpeded. Question here is of survival, not profitability (and definitely not of morality). With respect to climate change, we are taking risks that we don't have the capability to price. It's no different from the complex derivatives that brought about GFC.

[@franciscolopezus]

ESG is not something monolithic. Some companies could be doing some things that may seem ESG while doing stuff that wound put them with the 'bad guys.' From a share investment point, different things are the fundamentals (risk adjusted present value of the cash flows) or technical ((how and how much money moves +- into trading and pricing the share and how much in sync this is with the fundamentals adjusted for lag times and the economics environment surround the actions around the share. I prefer to see the macroeconomic effect of the components of ESG, rather than the effect of a broad and undefined concept in a group. I also disagree with MF in several things, first, there is no free market, which is the worst enemy of capitalism., mot business models use am monopsonistically induced imperfect market pricing model to their resources, as opposed to using the monetary value of the resources marginal productivity (subject to competition and floored by macroeconomic consistent government regulation, for i/e., items that becomes commoditized). Even if, in part, I disagree, was good to hear you. It woke me up from the doldrums of quaranin.

[@vivekramachandran2103]

I feel it very wierd that the so called 'Sin' companies have the most consistent returns over long term without any apparent 'ESG' orientation.

[@cancyhan8430]

could you please give some examples? like which companies do "sins" and how consistent their returns are?

[@vivekramachandran2103]

@@cancyhan8430 This term is generally used for companies which manufacture tobacco, alcohol or casino, etc. which are not much appreciated habits in society and hence by their nature are not ESG compliant. Examples include Altria Group (NYSE: MO), Diageo (NYSE: DEO), British American Tobacco (NYSE: BTI). However they have generated consistent returns over long periods of time beating the S&P 500. You can google the stock prices for their historical return.

[@cancyhan8430]

@@vivekramachandran2103 Thanks so much for the insights! It's pretty helpful. Is McD possibly a company that is not ESG compliant?

[@vivekramachandran2103]

@@cancyhan8430 Yeah, I do think so, because the fast food culture that MCD has promoted have contributed to obesity amongst the public and hence they do not comply with the social aspect.

[@krishnanunnimadathil8142]

It is not weird. It is only natural. The 'sin' status of their products actually makes them even more enticing in the eyes of the consumer. It is the same reason why alcohol makers often hanker governments for the banning of alcohol - bootlegging is much more profitable than regular sales. Do you really think, for instance, that there is no alcohol consumed in Gujarat - an ostensibly dry state?

[@ashdraked]

Youre based

[@TomerBenDavid]

:) thanks

[@rafaelmartins485]

👏🏼

[@dekzzx]

it is a destructive scam

[@polyunoventuresindia7860]

Important subject covered but only focuses on S.

[@gilbertkresna8474]

Very insighful sir, could please explain us what is working capital ? How to calculate it ? What's the story of it ? What's the drawback ?? I see so many formula out there, and thats confusing me 🙏🙏

[@apscoinscurrenciesmore7599]

😎👍

[@luxushauseragency]

So, fewer platitudes, more action!

[@kerrinnaude2777]

More free markets, less government interference!

[@davidbenjamin8347]

@@kerrinnaude2777 Regulation is essential to a well-functioning economy. You should push for smarter regulation, not less.

[@Sai-tek]

In the beginning itself is it sarcasm 😂. Add something to the old concepts and charge an extra amount.

[@pasanperera3785]

Should a fund really be called an ESG if they don't have Tesla in their allocation?

[@nirmaljain3251]

Hhhhh

[@abhishekbal399]

Incisive

[@davidbenjamin8347]

The idea that bad companies operate more cheaply is a fallacy. Look at Interface and Ken Anderson; operating the company more sustainably reduced costs and made it more profitable. Also, if you look at the weakest performers in the past 10 years, it's old oil/energy companies. saying bad companies return more is just factually wrong.