Dojo Talks: Magnus

In this week's Dojo Talks, the sensei discuss the legend that is Magnus Carlsen.
Thumbnail Photo: Eric Rosen
Follow ChessDojo here:
Website: www.chessdojo.shop
Twitch: / chessdojolive
Discord: / discord
Twitter: / chess_dojo
Instagram: / chess_dojo
Patreon: / chessdojo
Podcast: chessdojotalks.podbean.com/

[@TheBigGuppy]

The champion owns the title as long as they are willing to defend it. The title existed before FIDE.

[@fundhund62]

Spassky was around 2660 in 1972, and I don´t think many 2660 players today would be on his level.

[@TheBigGuppy]

In the US this year’s match doesn’t approach 1972. The 72 match had nightly coverage on the ABC, CBS, and NBC nightly news. I started playing in 72. It was huge.

[@RobBCactive]

Live coverage? Now India & China have more interested players. Karpov v Kortschnoi and Kasparov also made news bulletins in Europe.

[@ishanr8697]

"In the US"

[@TheBigGuppy]

@@ishanr8697 yes that is what I wrote.

[@jamesknapp64]

I think no ones talking about the extreme levels of opening prep you have for a Match vs the amount needed for these closed tournements. That amount of opening prep is tough and he doesn't want to go through that again unless it's a player he hasn't played a lot. Foruzia and maybe Duda presents that oppurtunity to get the motivation to go through the training again. On 2900 in the age of engines, I don't see it happening, but its barely possible.

[@David-hq8ir]

I am definitely in the camp "rating deflation". Just look at the top guys, most of them peaked years ago, Carlsen, Caruana and Aronian for example in 2014! I cannot believe they became worse players, on contrary, we can safely assume they know much more about chess now than 7 years ago. If everybody gets better (which is clearly the case due to modern technology) it is not reflected in an ELO-increase, ELO just measures relative strength.

[@bluefin.64]

There are people with math/statistics backgrounds who say current ratings are deflated. It seems most chess players, though, believe without question that ratings are inflated simply because they are much higher now. But standards in competitive arenas of all kinds go up continuously. John McEnroe, for example, said that Novak Djokovic's 41 match winning streak is far greater than his own of 42, because the caliber of players was so much higher in 2011 than in 1984.

[@David-hq8ir]

@@bluefin.64 I think it's especially older players that believe in rating inflation, often it's kind of difficult to accept reality ;) As it happens in all sports, better training methods, nutrition, mental coaching & the possibility to learn from the predecessors obviously increased the level considerably. In chess specifically there is also the fact that nowadays much more people all over the world play chess and everybody has access to all the knowledge he needs.

[@bluefin.64]

@@David-hq8ir This is attempt three to reply. I wonder if including an external link is why one and two didn't post. I agree that it's older people who more likely believe in inflation, and that mentality also applies to older people and sports but doesn't stick so well because insiders like old former players will say the skill level in their sport is much higher now. You can also look at old footage and just see athletes weren't as good. With chess, it would need thorough analysis of elite players games using engines to settle the inflation/deflation/neither debate. To me, a good example of the past vs the present and the knowledge based advantages you mentioned is the end position from Colle vs Grunfeld, 1929, and Grunfeld's reaction compared to mine. Grunfeld resigned when I saw the drawing move within five seconds. Sure, I knew in advance it was a draw, but the theme was easily familiar to me. I might only be a big fish, but I had the advantage of training a modern introductory pawn endings course on Chessable. The position from that game was so easy for me to solve that I don't doubt any actively competing GM today, mostly players of far lower stature than Grunfeld in his time, would spot the right move instantly, and so would most IMs and even FMs.

[@WillToWinvlog]

Great talk! I am also in full agreement with Jesse on all topics, especially that Carlsen could be the best but hasn't proven it yet IMO.

[@RobBCactive]

Right on, Jesse!! The sham WC was due to going away from the match format.

[@TheBigGuppy]

This!

[@Diffusion8]

Nice. But I could talk about/listen about Magnus for at least a couple more hours! I love that he has called out Firouzja, but my initial reaction was that he did this to put the pressure on Firouzja, possibly making it harder for him to succeed (not everyone deals well with pressure... Nepo failed badly in this regard). I also like the aspiration to reach 2900, but I think that ship has sailed for him... If he could have kept high motivation back in 2014, maybe, but now it has become so hard with everyone else having raised their game and kinda figured out his modus operandi. I think that benchmark will be achieved by players who are now 10 or 12 years old. It was interesting the chat about money and chess and Magnus's motivations... The richest people probably never really focus on money they just do what they love and make good decisions/get lucky... I dunno. He is definitely crushing it on that front though. I think when all is said and done with his career, he will quite clearly be the GOAT... Until the next one...

[@omerben-ami2018]

About the 2900 goal - chessnumbers (I think) had a post that if Magnus wants to get 1 rating point from the Tata Steel, he'll be forced to get 10/13, and last year he got 8.5

[@suryanshshirbhate5954]

He got rating from tata steel

[@lazyfrog4163]

"Give me Firoujza. Give me that kid now." said Jesse evilly

[@bluefin.64]

Until recently I assumed for years that elite players' ratings were exaggerated, until I read somewhere that there are math/statistics types that claim deflation. It was explained, but I can't remember the details, just that it made sense. My own thinking now is that a good part of the reason for higher elite ratings is the size of the ratings pool. It's like a pyramid that grows, so that each percentile contains more people. It's unavoidable that the standard of a given number at the top will go up. It's also unavoidable that more people with relatively greater talent will appear. An increased body of knowledge, easier access, engine analysis, modern training methods, and the continuous quest for excellence do the rest.

[@tommonk7651]

Magnus needs a rival - someone he can hate; someone he can focus on; someone to get his juices flowing. It’s like in professional wrestling, which really only is exciting when there is a heel and a babyface who are at each other’s throats. Pro tennis is better when there is a rivalry at the top.

[@niclashedin4758]

Will Magnus ever wrigt a book? I mean a classic, well thought out thesis on his views on the game.

[@ChessDojo]

Hopefully!

[@austin4768]

I think 15-20 percent sounds about right too. He can do it, but he's way more likely not to just because he has to keep consistently scoring super well against the worlds elite. Does he sometimes improve his rating against the rest of the top 10? Absolutely. Does he do it every tournament? No.

[@kdub1242]

I'd like to see Magnus lead an armada of Norwegian longboats to reclaim the Faroe Islands, Iceland, and Greenland for the Kingdom. But no pillaging the British Isles or Ireland again! We don't want any violence for goodness sake!

[@zah936]

I want him to pilage the British Isles. Only the British Isles 😁

[@sdaiwepm]

Haven't watched all of it (yet), but I believe Magnus objects to spending a big chunk of his life training for yet another classical match against a single opponent he has been N times over the past ten years. Therefore not analogous to Kasparov in 1993, and doesn't preclude playing some other format for the WC, e.g. a rapid tournament.

[@ordinarryalien]

Wow, Magnus has changed a lot for sure. I didn't know he went bald...

[@interstellarbeatteller9306]

Imagine if Bobby Fischer had a 3000 rated engine when he was learning to play Chess....

[@lokento]

I think Magnus, unlike Kasparov with Karpov, is lacking a rival, his nemesis. Until he finds that, it's hard to consider him #1 in history I think. So it must be frustrating to see how every time there is a random challenger, still strong, but never someone who is really standing out as #2 in the world (maybe Caruana was but he's not regular enough) And probably he sees Firouzja as that potential and steady #2 who can push him to his limits for a number of years, and make him the greatest in history.

[@mouselipschanneltyrinprice7130]

His challengers are far from random.

[@siraf1234]

@@mouselipschanneltyrinprice7130 Anand was past his prime, karjakin was only slightly better than the rest, caruana did not reappear and nepo collapsed. They are def not consistent

[@bluefin.64]

I don't know, you could say having someone on your heels is an advantage because it provides motivation. In any case, it's not one player that defines a champion, it's how well they do against the field. In my book Magnus is not the GOAT, though, because that's still Kasparov.

[@NelsHenderson]

With 12 year olds becoming GMs, we are seeing the influence of technology but also rising popularity in chess as well affecting ratings. Can Magnus hit 2900? Yes but he's already the GOAT.

[@zah936]

You get tired. After one point you want to remain the number one and not keep proving it. Simple

[@carlosaugustopintomachado4010]

TL&DR: Magnus sends them Capablanca vibes, and is worried about not truly being overthrown in a proper way(getting outplayed). Lots of stuff about rating and etc. The question remains, will there be a Alekhine to Magnus' Capablanca?

[@dunkaruudunkaruu8810]

The magnus interview made him seem largely unmotivated for the World Championship. He lacks inspiration unless its Duda or Alireza. He mentioned being much more interested in speed chess which i think is more of a competitive open field of whos going to win and that seems exciting. He's easily the best classical player right now and has been for some time. Unless something changes, he will remain unmotivated and not seeing the value in effort/time it takes to compete is the match.

[@connormonday]

David always has an odd take

[@PocketFilms100]

Magnus loves to play chess and has a sense of humour. Kasparov only liked to win at chess and has no discernible sense of humour.

[@AntoniWroblewski78]

Serious rating deflation. Computers / internet have made today's players much stronger. GM count is an ELO problem and an access issue to the boomer's point. ELO is a problematic rating system and the gatekeeping in the past against women and POC was atrocious.