Dominions 5: The Worst Nations in each Age (and a few that aren't that bad)

[@romulusnuma116]

The real reason for la Ryleh insanity is them finding out that their free spawn has upkeep

[@romulusnuma116]

@conan263 I would rather they starve or desert

[@Self-replicating_whatnot]

@@romulusnuma116 I would rather you could shovel them into void gate en masse in exchange for goodies.

[@Axz92Axz]

Regarding Asphodel I think It would be fun if Illwinter doubled down on the forest theme. The black centaurs could be requirement restricted to all forests instead of your capital, and your dominions popkill could be inverted in forests so it caused a growth by 1% per candle instead. Your forests would be these prosperous metropolises of life and vitality, surrounded by wastelands and death as the siren call of the pretender is slowly drawing life to it. I don't know how viable this would be but lore wise it would be really sweet :)

[@johannsergl9102]

I really like that idea, it would make them unique and maybe not horrible. But I also think they need to switch some summons to D instead of N, you just don't have enough N. Maybe also N gems from temples in forests?

[@CantusTropus]

Dominions Enhanced changes them such that their Dominion puts people to sleep instead of killing them, changing your scales to Sloth 3, and also causes temples to create Nature Gems. They're uh, a lot more powerful there.

[@johannsergl9102]

​@@CantusTropus I'll have to try that at some point. I like the idea and theme of Asphodel a lot, but they are just not worth the frustration in vanila. I do like the idea of prosperous forest more, though. Makes them even more special and the asymmetry is a lot of what makes Dom5 fun.

[@teakwondochest3287]

lore wise it doesnt make sense. apshodel isnt the land of the forests. asphodel is the forest taking over the living beings after they died in the forests. asphodel is the forests with every living being in them dead

[@johannsergl9102]

@@teakwondochest3287 That is true. Maybe you could add a certain gold income independent from pop to forest forts or labs? Maybe something about the fruits the driad hags harvest from the plants overgrowing in the forest. It could scale with growth or it could also be a unique action (kinda like snake summoning for c'tis). I like the feeling of forests being something special and uniquely valueable and Asphodel won't work without some gold.

[@kevinhenrique4256]

Holy fucking shit,i just brought this game after a friend recommended to me and begun to search videos on youtube about how to play it,AND LOOK AT THIS MY FAVORITE POWERPOINT KZbinR HAS A WHOLE SERIES ABOUT IT!!!

[@DarkVeghetta]

Welcome to Early Age Perun, before the PowerPoint times. Mind you, these days there is a Perun Gaming channel, but it's not filled to the brim with Dominions content, sadly.

[@williamreese7828]

I played LA R'lyeh once. Thankfully Atlantis died trying to kill Lemuria, and the game agreed that I was so unthreatening that I could be allowed to have Arcane Nexus for 30+ turns. That was back when you could shroud Golems for regen, and I still couldn't pull a win vs the remaining players.

[@Self-replicating_whatnot]

The current meta for nations like Asphodel and LA R'Lyeh is to go for ultra low dominion. If this is not an indication of how much they suck i don't know what is.

[@VeilingSun]

Use bane venom charms to kill off the freespawn as LA Ryleh. Summon a shade, slap a bane venom charm on it, put it in a province that you don't care about, and herd all your free spawn to that location.

[@aceflashheart]

I know that part of the appeal of Dominions 5 is the asymmetry of the factions, but some of the factions are just so desperately in need of a buff/fix that it's laughable. How can a nation like EA Palagea exist in a game that also has nations like MA Nazca? How can the Carrion Woods *still* be an essentially unplayable, broken faction two years down the line?

[@jacksons9546]

The Mekone buff makes me rly happy, I think they’re one of the coolest EA factions. It can be tough but man it’s really cool

[@CantusTropus]

I think it should be mentioned that MA Machaka's weakness is probably the result of them just being power crept. They're one of the oldest nations in the game in terms of when they were added to it (notably, they're much older than EA Machaka, notice how every mention of the Spider Clan in EA Machaka suggests they're up to something), and I think it's just that they haven't been adjusted accordingly to compete with the standards set by the newer nations.

[@TheMelnTeam]

MA Machacka doesn't need that much help to be more of an average nation. Make sorcerers cheaper and/or sacred and they already start looking more competitive. Same if you just take away their earth random so they're always F2, D2, or N3. With death/fire Machaka can boost fire to 5 easily by summoning a flame spirit, and hit N4 for most of the big nature stuff you'd need in battle by just handing N3 random sorcerers a thistle mace. This nation could also be saved by a recruit-anywhere sacred variant or making the spiders cheaper. None of this would move them to top tier but a lot of it could make them average. Even as it stands they're playable. They can skelly spam pretty hard with soul vortex troll batteries, drop big battlefield fire spells, easily spam creeping doom, go away from fire and cast mass protection, or use it and cast flaming arrows. Black spiders do not carry vs players for long but they certainly carry expansion; just an awake demilich with S2 D5 (can cap to teleport later and remote search astral) for stygian flesh gives them 26 natural protection vs non-magic...good for > 20 provinces t12 with no losses to spiders easily. Avoid barbs with them (you can recruit some javelins or pigmy spam to get rid of those) and they easily dominate horse tribe, heavy cav, any tribe province, and of course light/heavy infantry without losses (I didn't even lose a rider). Death pretender is a natural choice for them too, as you can then go for tartarians or even just immortal summon spam using death income. Missing air and having costly but below-average battlefield mages drags them down below average, but I could see some nations not taking magic weapons and just getting blown up by spiders early on, or lacking air magic and getting roasted by hundreds of flaming arrows per round.

[@mergele1000]

Yeah MAchaka is 1 change away from being perfectly fine and there are several possible changes that would do it.

[@johnblankenhorn9730]

“notably, they're much older than EA Machaka, notice how every mention of the Spider Clan in EA Machaka suggests they're up to something” Oh wow that is BIG news to me because I played EA first. I noticed the spider clan references yeah but I didn’t realize that EA came after MA because I found EA fun and awesome to play and just didn’t feel that with MA

[@TheMelnTeam]

Been experimenting with Asphodel a little lately. I think they can do better (not well, but better) using dom 1-2 pretender, something like awake white bull. Preach forest summon forts to 7 candles, leave everything else 1-2 (or enemy dominion). Very slow popkill due to growth 3 with reanimation + living troops/mages. Basically sac using black centaurs entirely in favor of using regular berserking centaurs (directly or stealth elfing with them) and still having hundreds of manikins from preached fort freespawn + reanimation. With this setup it's more or less like playing with death 3 (with growth 3 scale cost) in exchange for reanimators/freespawn. IMO such a setup is better than suggested reliance on black centaurs or paying for more dominion candles and trying to rely on a larger quantity of freespawn (don't think having maybe 1500 vs 800 manikins in turn 20s is worth the exchange of faster popkill). I can picture some nations shying from challenging bull in year 1-2 when it has hardskin + can cast regen on self. Some hellbless sacreds can kill that, a lot of year 1-2 armies can't, couple defensive pretender with elfing and not dom pushing people much and I can at least picture Asphodel becoming a dangerous nation to deal with. I don't think this is enough to move it off "worst MA nation", but it's worst by less. Not a resounding depiction of them but hey.

[@KimmoKM]

I've seen LA R'lyeh played in a new way that actually seems to make them viable (they won that the game, granted it was a mixed-skill game with a chaotic ending): take dom1, full scales (except the usual turmoil and temperature dumps), try to keep provinces at one candle (or better yet, neutral), and play it like MA R'lyeh, except that Pelagia no longer exists, you get some new stuff like Void Spectres, and you have the biggest mages of the age. Everything you say about popkill is true: the solution is not to have high candles: it's not like you even want your freespawn which, as you point out, is useless at best and detriment at worst. It's like MA R'lyeh taking death 3, which of course is a detriment in itself and costs 240 points extra when you go G3, but it's an endurable detriment given that MA R'lyeh is top-tier. And if you design your awake pretender to counter Atlantis/Erytheia/Lemuria (to kickstart research, maybe cast stuff like foul vapors), with production 3 and heat dominion to nerf Atlantians, you ought to be at least competitive if not favored.

[@catsareevil101]

Freespawn with upkeep. WTF. I forgot about that but gold using pop-kill is normally terrible on its own. Only Therados seems to sort-of pull it off.

[@PerunAU]

Unfortunately for Rlyeh, being insane doesn't remove your need to eat.

[@Eivael]

Even Theredos isn't full popkill anymore - they get to keep some pop in forts!

[@rovsea-3761]

@@PerunAU Where are the ranking videos Perun? The people demand them!

[@Self-replicating_whatnot]

You mentioning Pangea and white centaurs brought back so many fond memories. I love the damned things, they are f**n addictive at how good they are. You just give them almost any bless and throw them at problems, and the problems go away.

[@Madhattersinjeans]

I think taking luck with popkill nations that rely on gold for infrastructure is a necessity. To get those free gold events. Taking misfortune with them seems like a dangerous idea if you're also taking turmoil. But otherwise yeah, these nations sound hard to play as.

[@Miskatonic81]

LA Rlyeh really is a huge disappointment in a lot of ways. I actually love the nation thematically, it's a really cool concept to turn people insane in their dominion. But yeah I've never played against them in any game, and I refuse to play them which is a shame.

[@zerg0s]

What you do as Asphodel with Apostates and Dryads is that you twiceborn them, and then just yeet them into the frontline or in the nearest lake to drown them. Transformation is really only for N1 centaurs, or if you feel like gambling with dryads. It's what I was planning to do during the Smokey the Carrion Bear game, but those darned birds got in the way. Overall, Asphodel is a very confused nation though, I absolutely agree with that analysis. A meme and nothing more, sadly.

[@Kris_Lighthawk]

11:27 The Oceanian Hierothant are by no means useless in combat, you just have to use them as light thugs instead of using them as mages.

[@TheMelnTeam]

They're stealthy too, so their light thugging can potentially cause a lot of problems. I don't like that Oceania is effectively married to using their fort spell if they want two commander points though, definitely hurts them significantly. Yomi is even more hamstrung by that (very hard to get research going).

[@aty57]

Aww, an EA R'lyeh game would be fun to watch for sure. These are some very interesting thoughts on the strength of nations. I feel that illwinter likes to make nations that are simply thematic, even if that means thematically weak. I don't have too much of an issue with that honestly, but I get why people would dislike them since this is a game that has winning conditions and not simply a Roleplay only game.

[@Bill_Garthright]

Great stuff, Perun. I can't wait to see your full video, ranking the Dom 5 nations!

[@johnbrearley9791]

Also Capricorns are guaranteed to gain a magic path from transformation if they survive, since their chassis has a negative path boost.

[@Madhattersinjeans]

Helps to take luck scales as well to reduce the chance of them dying. Feeblemind is kinda rough though. Some way of healing it is kind of required if you're going to transform certain units. Even a bit of astral for shrouds and a recuperation bless isn't a terrible idea. And randoming a foulspawn is a downside in most cases.

[@Bill_Garthright]

I watched this weeks ago, but it was fun to watch it again. Too bad I could only 'thumbs up' once. :) I'm still waiting patiently for your Dom 5 ranking videos, too. That should be fun!

[@PerunAU]

I hope so, I have about 75% of the nations rated. The remaining 25% are proving tricky.

[@Bill_Garthright]

@@PerunAU The whole _thing_ sounds tricky to me. But if it were easy, we wouldn't need _you_ to do it, right? :)

[@kirbyone]

Senpai noticed my comment from the other video ^^ Asphodel is my bae. And yes, they are hot garbage. They have some fun tricks, such as their national regen spell affects all undead, transformation/twiceborn shenanigans for early tart chassis, pretty good choices for pretenders. But that popkill is just too sad. Everyone always has their own opinion for how to "fix" Asphodel. All I have to say is after Mekone patch, Asphodel patch when Illwinter? :( As fast as LA R'lyeh chaff die to poison barbs is how fast Asphodel manikins die to anyone with fire shield

[@TheScathed]

Could you kindly explain that bit about transformation/twiceborn for early tart chassis? I feel like I'm just misunderstanding but maybe there's something there I'm not seeing. Thanks in advance!

[@kirbyone]

@@TheScathed sure thing 👍 basically in one of the recent patches Illwinter changed how twiceborn works so that it costs more gems based on size and would also turn into different twiceborn forms based on size instead of always a human wight mage. Size 6 wights are essentially tartarians in all but name, big undead sacks of hp The gimmick is that you can cast twiceborn on a size two being at a cheap price then cast transform until you turn into a size 6 being, then when you die you come back as a size 6 wight. You need mages with nature and death paths, but that's what Asphodel has 😉 not optimal at all, mostly for memes

[@TheScathed]

@@kirbyone Oh wow. I didn't know that. Thanks for the info! Sounds like it has good meme potential

[@warpman]

perun: these nations are bad Challenge accepted Modding machine goes BRRR >:3

[@pharoahman475]

You telling me LA Ryleh combined the finacial issues of Asphodel with the inability to get out of the water and have good troops of EA Pelegia?

[@TheMelnTeam]

These are even harder to argue against than your top picks. Even pre-buff Mekone at least has an economy that scales up. Slower than other nations and with a major lack of sorcery, sure, but it could still throw a lot of F2 or E2 mages into fights, thug, and have money. These gold-reliant pop-kill nations are brutal, and EA Pelagia needing a constant factory of shambler skin armor just to put mages with more than 1 path in a school above water is also brutal. Maybe with EA Pelagia you can pitch a tent (underwater), cultivate pearls, and then tech rush arcane nexus (with a ridiculous over cast) + wish later lol. No big deal, just casually cast two level 9 spells. Nevermind most MP games would end with you still sitting in the water researching! Another way to meme Pelagia would be to move pearl mages onto land with shambler skin then hand them a thistle mace to cast transformation. What's sad is that going something like earth snake to grab some land holdings that at least SOME nations won't want to instantly kick away and make some hammers to forge shambler skin armor at 3 water gems per mage is probably your most viable play for fighting on land. Do any of these things have any hope of moving Pelagia up even a single spot in EA? No, they do not :D.

[@kunknown2340]

Coming back to this after winning 3 matches as MA Machaka (1 being a tied match amongst multiple top-tier nations). MA Machaka isn't too bad, but you have to play it as a forging nation. If you can somehow get your mages into communions with crystal matrixes/hearts (helps to get lizard shaman indy province & summon lamia queens for sabbaths) and get lucky with tranformation casts, you can pull off some pretty crazy stuff (ie. wailing winds, fog warriors, etc) and get some pretty good SC/thug chassis's. Another advantage is you can forge kithraionic pelts super cheap, and if you get dwarven hammers, that's like 2 gems a pop. You can literally kit out like 80% of your mage corp with them and now you got high prot mages spamming elemental magics all over the place. if you get 1e sorcerers you can kit them out with thistle mace, boots of messenger and kithraionic pelts and you got a pretty decent thug that can cast strength of gaia and creeping doom. The assassins are a bit niche, but effective nonetheless. Assassins definitely saved my butt a couple of times, but recruiting them is very far in between since they're cap only. I only usually recruit them if I don't have the gold for black sorcerers or if I have enough of them that I can spare a turn recruiting multiples of the assassins since you can get two per turn I believe. Don't get me started on how effective Machaka is at killing undead nations like Ermor and Sceleria.

[@fatrat92]

Will you ever go back and do more Dom5 or gaming content? I know after you channel exploding in popularity you probably won't want to.

[@rovsea-3761]

He has a gaming channel separated out called Perun GamingAU, only one dominions video on there at the moment, but he's been posting some other games semi-frequently.

[@durgtharaden7299]

I really like Pelagia even though they are so bad. Have you played the DomEnh version of Pelagia? You still have the crappy mages and troops but there are a lot of new conjuration spells that can help you get a foothold on land early as well as some good ways to generate more astral pearls from national spells.

[@lewisyeadon4046]

Uhhhhh.... bit strange seeing this guy when looking for some gameplay of Dominions, but okay. Definitely makes sense though 😂😂

[@rovsea-3761]

Ahh yes, our little corner of the internet's sole claim to fame lol

[@cypressz]

I honestly miss his dominions videos. These are where I found him first.

[@KermodeBear]

I so badly wish for Asphodel to be viable. I played them once, a long time ago, in a multiplayer game. I stalemated-mostly my first war and considered it a success.

[@onomastikon7975]

I know this is late but - yey! I miss your dominions stuff! Also, which map was used for asphodel? Looks really nice 😊

[@Ragatokk]

On asphodel: You can make an expansion party per turn with 5/6 black centaurs, you can use twiceborn and get your apostate back as sacreds without upkeep.

[@Hapsasa]

Both Asphodel and LA Rlyeh have wonderful reworks in the Dom Enhanced mod. Asphodel is very close to your ideas with the nation

[@BrutaLordD]

your dominions videos are very helpful 👍

[@MrCaome]

What about Asphodel in a disciples game?

[@basileusbasil4041]

surprisingly good, they have basically the same sacreds as Pangaea but also have D N mages. and they can summon commanders that can make free spawn. it's just the pop kill and shitty free spawn that makes them bad. at least that's how i understand it.

[@PerunAU]

They're a perfectly functional offshoot of Pan.

[@Self-replicating_whatnot]

@@PerunAU Wait a smidge. If Asphodel is a disciple they don't get popkill, unless their daddy has popkill?

[@ruben1151]

@@Self-replicating_whatnot correct

[@Self-replicating_whatnot]

@@ruben1151 Well then, i guess we found the root of the issue - the nation of Asphodel is poorly designed, if turning off popkill not only makes it better but more coherent too.

[@nicolinrucker5181]

LA Erytheia as Pretender and LA R'lyeh as disciple for the shiggles! Also that'd probably just be a scary team let's be honest.

[@onomastikon7975]

You keep mentioning your tier list - can anyone link to those?

[@stephenmoynahan6211]

Can't recommend DE enough! Asph rework removes their popkill, among other things. LA Rlyeh also drops their popkill. Balanced in other ways, of course

[@jamesmaxwell1940]

DE has a lot of cool ideas, but I can't help feel that there's no way they can truly balance some of the ridiculous stuff they add to the game. The minor balance changes are nice, especially the adjusted gem costs for some of the crappier items, but then there's ridiculous new spells like The Stars are Right, a Rlyeh global that spreads unrest across the world in addition to giving you a ridiculously strong flying immortal supercombatant with W3S4D3H4. It's a fun idea, but better suited for singleplayer than multiplayer imo. I think I'll be sticking with vanilla.

[@stephenmoynahan6211]

@@jamesmaxwell1940 Mhm, that's the critique I hear most often. I personally disagree as someone who plays pretty much only DE multiplayer, but no worries. To each their own!

[@nicolinrucker5181]

@@jamesmaxwell1940 You mean an SC who goes away if someone dispels the global? He's easier to get rid of than the Genie of the Lamp and that guy is so easy to get rid of no one ever relies on him for anything.

[@jamesmaxwell1940]

@@nicolinrucker5181 Good luck out-competing MA Rlyeh for Astral gem dominance to dispel their globals. Not to mention they can just throw it right back up and get their SC back.

[@nicolinrucker5181]

@@jamesmaxwell1940 Ah yes, they can totes just throw it back up to get their chassis back, sure... there's DEFINITELY no other globals competing for that limited global slot and he's gonna pop RIGHT back to where he was already geared and everything! You definitely bought no time at all!

[@dogebestest7187]

Man I wish Ashpodel didn't suck. Such a cool premise for a nation. Would be awesome if they got maybe like a Sacred freespawn that didn't suck and would arrive in decent numbers

[@whats82]

Everything is moving up in Mekone

[@sdfsdfsdfsdfsdfsdf3053]

Pelagia has high w gems incom, just summon gelatinous cubes, buff them and be happy. Real pelagian problem is its expensive, slow requiting, cap only thug chassis has S1.

[@thtb]

Asphedel should have pop spawn without pop kill, focused on forest

[@flamedeluge1332]

Asphodel is ok if you keep the popkill but just give it `#defdeath -3` so that it starts with Growth3 scales for free.

[@DesignatedMember]

I came here despite not even playing Dominions anymore just to hear Mekone get shittalked like the trash nations that it is only the find out that they've gotten buffed?? WTF?? EDIT: Wait! No MA Xibalba!? Those guy sucks too! Did they get an update too?

[@mergele1000]

Nah. But MAXib isn't that bad. They got a weak start but once they get going they are mostly fine.

[@DesignatedMember]

@@mergele1000 Yeah but Xibalba is so weak that if you border them, why not invade? Its free real estate!

[@mergele1000]

@@DesignatedMember If you bring enough Leather Spear Muuch they are actually surprisingly good against the heavy stuff players usually like to recruit. If you got some hellbless or are bringing the right troop combo though yeah they are just screwed.

[@tornielsen2888]

Im a little surprised Eriu didnt get any honorable mention in MA. They seem so bad people often dont even pretend they exist. I mean, what are their redeeming features besides a A3 StR Cap mage?

[@PerunAU]

You can still elf people. you can still thug. you still have a sacred infantryman. My theory is eriu gets called out because it's worse than TNN while most MA nations are upgrades. They're not junk tier though imo

[@mergele1000]

Eriu is notably better because they have the elf thugs and ok infantry that does get you a decent part of the way though the game. The problem is that sooner or later there will come a point in the game where elf thugs as the only thing you have aren't enough anymore and then they don't have anything else they can do and hit the wall hart. I'd put them similar to Machaka in that regard as they have thing they can do and they have some edge they can levergae, it just isn't enough long term. (Btw. Eriu does NOT have any assassins)

[@tornielsen2888]

Well yeah, if Eriu are suddenly worse than just about every other nation, a weak EA nation stuck in MA, then they do also suddenly land in the Machakka tier. At no point was it said they had a shot at the top (bottom) spot. All the same. Their sacreds are not that good. Their thugs are not that good. Yes they can elf people. And if anything thats gives people an incentive to rush them, before they can get elfed.

[@TheMelnTeam]

@@mergele1000 By late game there is an expectation you're breaking into other paths. I my recent game with them I could cast big spells in every magic school but blood before turn 60, and that's despite taking an earth serpent for them. I actually had a small amount of blood income too, but only enough to forge a few axes and lifelong protections. In final battle for last throne I had mass flight, mass protection, fog warriors, will of fates up on the chaff and made a bunch of fire elementals up front using flame spirits (which got the flight buff). Also had a few mound fiends with trolls on guard commander spamming skeletons, though they later killed the enemy SC using disintegrate too. I used a golem with a hat + power of spheres to cast will of fates, only needed one empower since I was able to forge a skullcap off an indy random. I also had both kings of fire + kings of earth, air queens changed hands a bit due to a ridiculously lucky assassination. Even before the last big war started in the mid-late turn 40s, I already had elemental royalty, including fire, plus had searched death significantly with some troll shamans. They are way better than Machaka because of their access to cloud trapeze/air magic in general, which generic nations can barely get. There are very few counters to storm + tstrike + lots of size 6 air elementals...but Eriu is a constant threat to raid *and* shuts down many types of raiding/thugging easily (cloud trapeze in, trample with elementals or use counter-gear). Even killed a fully-kitted 50% regen water queen using sprites (for fatigue) + sharpness weapons/moon blade. The nation has some real problems, but the mages are enough to keep it out of the true bottom.

[@flamedeluge1332]

If Eriu had chorus communions they would be quite adequate.

[@kunknown2340]

You won as ea rlyeh??? How!?

[@GaldirEonai]

Called all three :D.

[@johannsergl9102]

LA Pythium? I mean. they are in now way as bad as Ryleh, but worth an honourable mention in my book.

[@TheMelnTeam]

They are pretty bad, owing mostly to the fact that they struggle to recruit useful mages outside their cap. Before long R'lyeh struggles to recruit mages anywhere though and Pythium does get some interesting national summons. Pythium seems clearly low tier but is still better than the worst stuff.

[@aliquis5487]

Great video as usual, but personally I wish only land nations were considered.

[@tadouglas529]

It can go on land!

[@malibelizec2543]

Erytheia seems to be better than you give it credit for. Underwater it can be better than Atlantis.