Don Sadoway | Innovation in Stationary Electricity Storage: The Liquid Metal Battery

"Innovation in Stationary Electricity Storage: The Liquid Metal Battery"
Donald R. Sadoway, Professor, Materials Science and Engineering, MIT
Energy Seminar - October 31, 2016

[@foxpup]

Wow!!! A man who understands both science/technology AND economics. You don't see that very often in academia. :-)

[@TerryPullen]

And style.

[@WarzSchoolchild]

Don Sadoway is in for a treat! Fuel Free Magnet Motors, have been around since 1710, when Gottfried Leibniz was examining old Mathematical Texts from India, and noticed they already had figured out "The Calculus". Today we call the Johann Bessler "Orffyreus Engine" a Switch Release, Halbach array, Permanent Magnet Motor. Andrew Carnegie got Nikola Tesla to install them at his Steel Works, though we suspect Electromagnets were deplored, as permanent magnets were not as strong back then. Today these Switch Release Halbach array Gantry Crane Hoist Magnets safely lift two tonnes, and are remarkably compact. Read The Andrew Carnegie Official Biography (Google Books) and learn how he was filibustered out of delivering his keynote speech, at the Steelmaker's Federation Annual Meeting. Andrew did manage to shock the entire audience by saying he could pay his workers three times the scab labour wages of his two main competitors, who were losing money hand over fist selling steel at $14 a ton (Gold was $20 a Troy oz.) and Andrew declared that at the next General Meeting he would explain how Fuel Free Energy allowed him to make a good profit selling the very best quality steel at only $9 a ton.... He never made that speech, because J.P. Morgan on instruction from his Rothschild Bank backers, bought Andrew's Steel Empire out for 4,500 metric tonnes of Gold. In fact only Paper Certificates at 5% Interest payable in Gold Bullion were delivered. "Sue Me for breach of contract, Andrew and you get nothing, your big mistake was going 50-50 with your workforce. they get nothing as well if I declare bankruptcy." In just over a week, it is the Centenary of Andrew Carnegie's departure, from a broken heart! The Bloody World War ended with a new World War looming, and FREE ENERGY buried! 1919. These Halbach Array Switch Release Engines have gigantic torque. As testified in all the contemporary literature.and eyewitness accounts. The Diamertic polarised cylinder magnets had to be wrapped in cloth to hide the magnetising hammer blows, and were then deceptively referred to as 'Weights" (about four pounds eact) China have all the details now, so as they say "Denial is not a river in Egypt! " and even better China have access to the minerals like Lanthanum, and Neodymium. These motors can also be 3D Printed The NITTO DENKO cold sintering powder is stronger that top grade N-52's. No more phone battery charging very soon.

[@brettkuntze8997]

Successful people practice uneconomical concepts to get rich as plucky off the gullible suckers en masse!

[@jeremycrisp4488]

"I'll give them to you for free, but you gotta wire them." Love it. This guy is awesome.

[@mikesattler1537]

At 28 minutes he states that magnesium doesn’t burn. Can somebody please explain. Magnesium is highly flammable in their pure form. I’m sure I’m missing a chemistry lesson here however I know Magnesium burns in molten or in powder or ribbon form.

[@gwangmookkim5031]

Thankful for sharing this video. He is great chemistry and also engineer that I thought when seeing this presentation.

[@zacharypernikliyski4830]

You should’ve name it T-1000 after the Terminator 2 liquid metal Robot 🤖

[@mrvaticanrag3946]

Could you convert New Zealand's Tiwai Point Aluminium smelter about to be decommissioned by NZAS into cheap battery storage? Or better into a Carbon free Steel smelter using Taranaki iron sands?

[@CHMichael]

2020 is there one operational?

[@brettmoore3194]

These could be placed in huge sand containers to contain extra heat🎉

[@peterkorek-mv6rs]

"I forbid to my students to work with this part of the periodic system"!

[@jasonc6194]

Good video!... You should do a video on Nano One Materials Corp. I'm sure you will be very interested in their cathode technology that make cathode materials less expensive, higher voltage, safer, less degradation and more environmentally friendly. Nano One has created partnerships with names such as VW, Pulead, and an undisclosed USA OEM and multi billion dollar non-chinese cathode manufacturer. Their technology has already been proven. Scale up and commercialization should occur in 2022

[@frederickwinn6574]

Correct, as always. Our group is, and has been for 10 years, or more advocates of Dr. Sadoway. His development is needed for decentralization / re-build of the grid. Great Physicist.

[@jcjensenllc]

Maybe an adequate physicist but is a failed businessman, entrepreneur, and inventor.

[@wearemilesfromnowhere4630]

Definitely admire this guys thinking process. Interesting how he looks at the development of the metals before the electrolyte.

[@bobc3895]

50 years ago I was working for a small electronics manufacturer that did something amazing. They hired bright young people and threw them into a lab where they could sink or swim and he wasn't concerned with what letters came after their names. The result was a small company that beat the pants off large competitors because we never worried about trying something new. the company fo;ded 25 years ago when the founder retired and sold it to a consortium that didn't understand how the place worked. All the technical people scattered to the winds and while nobody got rich, they all used the training they got at that small company to grow in their fields and hopefully show the incoming talent how to think outside the box.

[@janicefreedom8665]

@@bobc3895 What was the name of this company?

[@dell177]

Hyperion Industries, Watertown, MA i was lucky because it was a small company I got to do EVERYTHING, big companies tend to keep you in a very tightly strictured cubby hole. i started as a jr technician and worked my way up to engineering and management with nothing more than a high school education in electronics and a willingness to learn.

[@antonnym214]

I love it when I see technology leaps like this that actually EXIST. So much of the time we see breakthroughs announced that never make it out of the lab. This one, I'm expecting good things from. Well done, Dr. Sadoway!

[@robd3470]

I was also hoping for a momentum.. unfortunatly the green climate neutral activists wont allow its scaling..

[@blakjedi]

Still my favorite lecturer. Thanks Professor Sadoway.

[@slutica]

“To make something dirt cheap, make it out of dirt” Keeping that one in the bank.

[@jonhite7892]

You are my hero

[@henrygustav7948]

I wonder...what if he had UNLIMITED funding...

[@martinzitter4725]

Local dirt.

[@davidmayhall6567]

Sand battery is possible just use salt and water carbon plates

[@robertplajhnik499]

We could have it @@henrygustav7948 , only if we set our minds in the right way and stop with all this bullshit called wars, politic and economic tricks that are played now... Humanity has an enormous potential, almost endless...

[@ericlawrence9060]

He is brilliant. I love his style and use of clever humor. VERY dense info, natural professor. Reminds me of my own top teacher Douglas Raymond.

[@AaronHahnStudios]

Wow....just...I'm speechless Wowed. This changes everything. I am so glad for the internet and what it has done for the human race to spread these idea's so others like myself so we can add and better life not just for people but for all life on the planet.

[@niko-laus]

there are many concepts of large batteries now the nanoflow is one too my worries is the patent system buries them to make extra money

[@allgoo1964]

This works because it doesn't have to be portable. It's stationary, so the weight and the bulk won't matter. I can imagine a multiple story building size battery for the community use. Other way of saying it is it's a step above lead-acid battery. For the portable devices and transportation, they still have to come up with something else other than Li-Ion. I think. We'll need many more battery technologies for different uses. There probably won't be one dominant technology.

[@rRobertSmith]

Assembly is almost impossible since no one has figured out the bus work on top of the cells (make a bus work that all you have to do is bolt together).

[@CraigHocker]

this competing for large storage backup on an industrial scale against gas/oil backup generators and pumping water up a hill, it's not about mobility. if Li-Polymer batteries can be improved they would be the next step past Li-Ion for mobility - some variations of Li-Ion are expected to be out commercially in the next few years, but none of these are capable on large scales of liquid metal.

[@Tarbabyification]

think of all the buildings amazon is putting on the market for availability like old K-Marts or old Blockbusters centralized and dirt cheap

[@garytulie8567]

One area of transportation which may be suitable for this battery is shipping where weight is less a concern.

[@daleval2182]

Acadian changes earth , proud of you Don. Thank-you brother and stay safe many greed brokers must be watching this intently

[@Coltrabagar]

Zero fade after loads and loads of full cycles is awesome! A lot of this is great stuff.

[@Macroscience]

Absolutely fabulous lecture. I can not recall when I recently or ever listen/read to quarter an hour speech that so comprehends and logical. Something so spectacular that even Me with nature to find defects or improve cannot find a fault or better. Congratulation Professor.

[@Kwolfx]

I checked out Ambri's website. Like this video it's all promotion of the concept, but nothing about testing, or more specifically, commercial testing. I'm not saying this idea won't work or he's a fraud. However, I want to see specific steps that will be taken by Ambri to bring this concept to fruition and a timeline to do so. I might excuse Dr Sadoway's lecture for not giving us a demonstration of mundane business planning , but Ambri's website needs to do exactly that to show that this company and its product is for real.

[@EmilNicolaiePerhinschi]

www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/ambri-is-still-alive-and-chasing-its-liquid-metal-battery-dreams#gs.s9JbZBSK

[@karlp8484]

But he gives the answer to this in the lecture. The first and main investor was TotalFinaElf. The oil and gas company. They bought in, to squash this project, the O&G companies do this all the time. I worked for Chevron and you wouldn't believe how many alternative energy patents they own - all bought from original inventors. Just to make sure they never make it out into the world.

[@axeman2638]

You are dreaming if you think this will come to market before 2050

[@jimd1944]

@@karlp8484 Sir, IMO, the only problem with this "theory" is that patents only last from 14 to 20 years. After the patent expires, the technology is public and can be used by anyone so, if the technology is viable/valid, why haven't private investors taken this to market? If there really was a 150 mpg carburetor out there (like I heard back in the 70's), one would think some car company, like Chrysler back then, GM or a independent, when it was going broke would market it?

[@uberultrametamega946]

I just watched this in August, 2019. Can anybody out there tell me how this project has progressed since October, 2016?

[@selfstudypk]

there you go to kzbin.info/www/bejne/p4PTgn9nq6uKgsk

[@davidpiepgrass743]

They report that they won't finish the first major commercial deployment until 2023, which is a bit surprising given that they had photos of numerous apparently-working cells in 2016. ambri.com/business/

[@antonnym214]

The more I see about this man, the more I like him (Battle-hardened! Tenured means never having to say you're sorry!). He has a sense of humor, as well. I wish him all success! P.S. I subscribed! Great stuff!

[@easyfencing]

All very good but all we need to know really is: the duration of the battery, the efficiency of the battery, the energy density per kg and volume of the battery and the cost of storing 1kWh. Simple.

[@suprememasteroftheuniverse]

He's a fraud. He doesn't have the technology yet. He admits that pumped hydro is cheaper and it's just water in a damn Dan.

[@paulcandiago9339]

Thank you and congratulation for the lecture on the Philosophy we should have when we are involved in the fields of science and technology: to mantain a free mind.

[@davidwilkie9551]

The best kind of Professor, expects better results from the uncluttered minds of the Students who still rely on his long-term knowledgeable delegation to begin acquisition of practical experience, but with a different and current perspective. Is the Grid Customer/consumer always right? The Henry Ford is attributed to the idea that if he'd asked the public what they wanted, they would have said "faster horses".

[@wizlish]

And to Steve Jobs can be attributed the great popularization of 'people want you to tell them the technology they should want'. I suspect the great majority of 'Grid Customers' mostly care that the Electricity Fairy provide ample reasonably consistent electricity at the lowest possible "deregulated" cost, and consideration of storage of "charge/current buffering" as in these large distributed-meighborhood projects (the GURL system of space conditioning is another example in a different field) requires more careful education to prioritize.

[@stevemadison7895]

Never had a prof like this when I was in school. Quite a dissertation!

[@arthurgranopoulos5995]

I am not a rocket scientist but every thing I heard maid seance I am watching this for the second time but Dr Sadoway makes a lot of seance to me.The science is complicated but that don't mean it don't make seance good luck

[@edmondedwards6729]

the issue of whether the unit generates energy on it's own or not determines if it is a battery, or a giant capacitor. The description seems to indicate capacitor.

[@BracaPhoto]

Ummmm you do know a capacitor IS a battery right?

[@strictnonconformist7369]

@@BracaPhoto you do know the difference between a capacitor and a battery, right? They are superficially the same in that they can charge and discharge, but there are other issues that make them different.

[@yetanotherjohn]

Fascinating! I solder electronics under a microscope for a living, solder is made of tin and lead, and solder's melting point is BELOW that of tin or lead. This lecture reminded me of that.

[@strictnonconformist7369]

Alloys are funky things, aren’t they?

[@martingrundy5475]

Outstanding. That really was excellent.

[@AlexGutierrezPhotography]

I liked the Excitement, But where are they NOW!!!!

[@maxpayne2574]

probably bought out by oil cos and retired

[@johnarnold6847]

Tesla effort in Australia provided proof of concept with lithium battery less expensive than old coal and natural gas peaker plants! Now Ca, South Korea, and Australia lining up larger battery projects. So, the issues of how to use batteries should be sorted out by the time, if ever, this guy, or someone else, makes a demonstration level plant-and demonstrates much lower costs. There are multiple professors out there with fantastic sounding battery concepts. Not to be discouraged-but many try and few are successful

[@OriginalJetForMe]

"No computational materials science, no rapid throughput screening doo dah doo dah, I sat and I looked at this thing and figured it out by raw intellect."

[@iamafractal]

every single time I've seen an oil company invest in some kind of new energy technology, that tech has NEVER come to fruition. A company in TX was developing jet fuel producing microbes. they made a test flight from TX to CA using microbe generated fuel. it was working great. once the oil company bought them, though, they put out a press release saying that hopefully in 20 years, they would finally have some fuel to show. the shell eco marathon has been an ongoing joke since the 1940's, when the winner got 150MPG... the current record there is some crazy number like 26,000 MPG... so where is any of the tech? Stanford Ovshinsky was just building 3 manufacturing plants to be able to make enough asphalt based solar shingles to roof the world. once cheveron got a hold of the company the first thing they did was shut all that down. so why do you expect that taking money from an oil company will do anything whatsoever except completely thwart your efforts, while keeping you in a constant state of anticipation of some kind of pending release of your technology?

[@Pernection]

Doesnt make sense that capitalist don't capitalize on new things

[@andrewporter4636]

@@Pernection Counter Intuitive

[@claudiomaiasantos]

maybe because it's not the only investidor Bill Gates is funding it as well, and I don't think he has any plans to preserve oil status quo.

[@IKnowYouDidnt]

Ya don't wanna ruin the economy, lol.... Whoever said the "economy" was supposed to be "economical"? Not a capitalist I tell ya.

[@iamafractal]

Riot4Peace the best economy happens when we innovate so much it puts the old economy out of business over and over again.

[@PhilipRhoadesP]

Really great presentation! Don could do stand up if he gets bored with chemistry!

[@AJHyland63]

I think this would be good for cyclone/hurricane areas where each house could have an onsite battery charged by solar and hooked into a local grid. In the case of storm damage to the grid, each house would be able to stay powered and the grid of batteries could supply an area even if some houses do not have solar panels until that grid can be repaired. This means that neighbourhoods can keep running, food supplies can be kept fresh, local stores and fuel stations can draw from the local neighbourhood batteries to keep operating until utilities can be reconnected. Command electronics over the grid (similar to current technology where internet can be transmitted over the household electrical wiring) can be used to ensure batteries can cycle from the local solar panels while the household draws from the grid. It would probable speed up community recovery.

[@finddeniro]

Great Show....Heck of the development. Reason it Out...

[@dlovett1771]

This man is a true professor! He is not only confident in his research but he pushed passed the Nay Sayers... He is now an authority in his field but sounds very humble (I doubt his grad students feel that way - I'm sure he's a slave driver) - no one got anywhere worth anything without working hard though. He clearly has studied philosophy and the art of learning and first hand learned how to sell a used car to a masarati driver. Sweated out that lecture in a full suit... boss. I wouldn't shake his hand, I'd give him a high 5.

[@michaelparsons3159]

love what your doing Professor Sadoway. may God speed. Perhaps some sort of tubing exchanger could be incorporated as a cooking and space heating benefit. Also I currently use about 10 KWHr per day and probably half of that is for the refrigerator, if you could give some thought to cold with your chemical wizardry it might also prove fruitful for the world. You remind me of that song "WE ARE THE WORLD" good luck.

[@grendelum]

The *PowerWall* may be expensive, but the first time the neighborhood lost power and I didn’t notice? *_Priceless._*

[@pjpa305]

Doesnt the Powerwall need an active internet connection to work?

[@billdale1]

@@pjpa305 ??? Why would it need ANY connection to ANYTHING? With a Powerwall battery of sufficient size, you can be completely off-grid. That is actually how millions of homes today already are.

[@pjpa305]

@@billdale1 That is why I asked. I watched a review on it recently. And that was a major complaint. That because it needed connection to Tesla's servers to operate, that if the grid goes down, your "off the grid" power also goes down. It would be a major draw back of the power wall for me. Hence my question to someone who owns one...

[@tomswiftTTT]

. PJ Pa No. Internet connectivity is only needed to read the battery's state and change parameters. It can charge and discharge independently.

[@pjpa305]

@@tomswiftTTT Thanks Mike!

[@arthouston7361]

This video was a "recommended for you" on my youtube page, and I had just watched the CBS video talking about this man and his "revolutionary technology." What struck me is that there was not one bit of real information about HOW this battery was supposed to work, why it was inexpensive, and how it could last into a long cycle of use. I wonder if anyone else thought of that as being just a tiny bit too vague......? At least in this presentation, we have some specificity about the theory. Clearly, this can fit in with the current (sic) grid technology, since the battery can be charged overnight by the grid in summer, and discharge during the day during the high air conditioning load to help prevent brownouts.

[@billdale1]

No information on how it works?!? Did you actually WATCH it???

[@mikewurlitzer5217]

@@billdale1 Good question. I am an EE not a chemistry expert and I found this presentation to be very understandable and quite in depth as to how this battery will function. Unfortunately it seems energy has become a highly fractured religion.

[@vdinh143]

Because the CBC audience is not the same as the Stanford audience.

[@ru.kiddingme]

Art Houston - OK, but in this video Prof. Sadoway DID discuss the huge economic benefits of what I call "peak shaving" (the highways analogy). We also need grid and neighbourhood level storage to support the intermittent-power producing renewables. Now, if the 'powers that be' could revise the regulatory framework and remove assorted roadblocks we could get somewhere in making civilization more efficient and sustainable.

[@barrygroeneveld6901]

This is the Most Important Invention of the Century.

[@Milosz_Ostrow]

Running small-scale laboratory prototypes is fine, but for this technology to get off the ground, Ambri needs to partner with a public utility to build a pilot plant where the technology can be exercised and demonstrated in a real-world situation. This could be done even if the first batteries are inefficiently hand-built, without the automation envisioned for a full-scale factory.

[@martingrundy5475]

Yes. I'm wondering in scaling to the extent of using concrete enclosures, with suitable refractory and steel linings. As he said the larger the more efficient and he also reported relatively low pressures. It is a very interesting idea. I'm sure that given some experimentation with Bismuth and some other similar metals they will find lower temp metals that will make the cells more efficient. I'm thinking in particular of the many different low melting point Bismuth alloys, such a fields metal, etc. There are also quite a number of different Lead alloys with different melting points. I'm sure there will be a few recopies that could yield some improvements.

[@abaddonbolero9605]

An intellectual TOUR-DE-FORCE. Maybe he IS the next Volta. He IS quite inspiring. I would NOT bet against him!! LOVE the idea of a small solar FARM, with neighborhood (or village) capacity. BRILLIANT!!! Whatta MIND!!

[@frozenprakash]

Great video, fully watched. Only thing which was irritating is Amp hours rather than Watt hours :| Thought he said in video that voltage = 1V, so it's same as Watt hour, in the presentation they could had used more scientific Wh (watt hour) notation.

[@wizlish]

ampere-hours are a pretty standard measure of battery performance, so perhaps think of this as the same 'legacy' as American preference to express engine power in hp instead of kW.

[@audiofella5066]

This is an awesome presentation and he seems like a genius, BUT THEY REALLY NEED TO SIMPLIFY THEIR MESSAGE AND HIRE A GREAT SALES TEAM, A LOT OF THESE TECH SCIENCE GUYS FORGET TO HIRE A GREAT SALES TEAM

[@nigelwilliams7920]

I love this concept. Hope it comes to fruition at commercial scale. Will work fine for transport applications too, of course. An issue for longer term storage in these liquid metal cells could be keeping a battery pack at its operating temperature. I guess you could play self-charge/discharge games by having a couple of cells at a low state of charge, then by grouping up pairs of batteries in series you get higher voltage than a single cell, then the pair can 'charge' the low cells (which are connected in parallel with a lower voltage), keeping both warm, then the now-discharged cells can be the sink for the next pair. The BMS can run this game on any cell whose temperature is getting too low. There will be some losses, but it is a method to keep the pack temperatures where required.

[@donsturm6366]

Absolutely awesome! What an inspiration.

[@MikeHarrison3266]

So this was in 2016 and China has not grown an industry from this mans work, astounding.

[@1969yomamma]

Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) for semi trucks would be large untapped market... noisy, troublesome, fuel consuming, environmentally dangerous. Would be awesome to see in trucking industry if size permitted. Thanks

[@zxwmabcdef5439]

Why can't the cells be round? We do work for a customer we run sheets of 310 stainless steel and RA330 on our punch/laser. The customer has a robot roller that rools them up and welds them. It is cheaper to roll the sheet into a cylinder than it is to form it on a brake or draw it through a die.

[@dengle2001]

Because, like COSTCO, you can get more rectangular "cells" in a space than round ones.

[@orlandopizzio5647]

Instant empathy with that (scientific) guy.

[@thinkmackay8954]

It is always fun to talk to people who understand!

[@jamesbirkett8412]

Electricity is reinvented I thank you for your wonderful work and open mind.

[@rodneysmith5894]

First class interesting lecture.Brilliant.

[@2nnhys991]

this reminds me of the introduction of the ice machines that was disruptive to the 'natural ice' industry :-)

[@petersonjoseph4410]

Nice work

[@NibsNiven]

Little known fact: poorly maintained ice makers can incubate and spread disease.

[@dengle2001]

@@NibsNiven Interesting... any supporting links would be appreciated

[@somaliskinnypirate]

The theory sounds valid. I've seen his previous lecture on TED. It's been many years now. This thing is made of primitive materials and easy to manufacture. Where is a working battery tied to a house with solar? If it's so simple, surely 5-10 years later this would be rolled out to every nook and cranny around the globe. The demand for this is literally mind boggling. Literally would make someone a trillionaire in a couple years. I would give the guy $5000 for a working 1kwh battery just to mess with it... But, I see nothing... hmmm

[@vdinh143]

"easy to manufacture?" I'm not sure you watched the same lecture I did. The claims I saw are: high energy density (80Ah/16in^2), high charge density (300 mA/cm^2), scalable (

[@somaliskinnypirate]

@@vdinh143 please look at 48:13. It's written right on the slide :/

[@jptrainor]

Can the thermal losses be captured and used for space heating, e.g. like co-generation?

[@martingrundy5475]

I can't see why not. Though it depends on how well the thermal management and insulation works. Ideally there shouldn't be too much heat external, or that would need be replenished in some way, costing energy, as would taking energy out from inside the insulation boundary. It is swings and roundabouts. However on larger installations it way be feasible, certainly for a heating source.

[@dirkryan5962]

(26:39) what really amazes me about this technology is the fade rate! for a battery to operate for 10 years-charging and discharging once a day-while still maintaining 99% of its original energy capacity is unheard of (at least by me). in fact, i'm actually surprised that i _hadn't_ heard of it before. that said, i really hope this idea is successful (not because i fear Climate Change-of which i think mankind's role has been _grossly_ exaggerated-but because of all the great new technologies and scientific advancements that are likely to follow).

[@OMGWERDOOMED]

Volta did not invent electricity. Electricity exists in the atmosphere of the Earth, the planets and the Sun. Electricity is as natural as it gets.

[@maxpayne2574]

And in the nervous system of every animal

[@OMGWERDOOMED]

@woof beast Volta "researched and discovered methane after reading a paper by Benjamin Franklin of the United States on "flammable air". " from Wikipedia

[@anthonykenny1320]

as usual thorium energy id the elephant in the room that no one ever mentions WHY?

[@Bugdriver49]

also ignored the fact that there's platinum and palladium in every modern car on the road today...inside the cat. converter.

[@Bugdriver49]

it has been obvious for some time thorium reactors are the ONLY real, cost effective, alternative today to wean ourselves from the fossil energy teat.

[@Travlinmo]

I love that quick discussion on flow Batteries at the very end. I believe in flow batteries but they certainly appear to be passing through the valley of death.

[@sschmachtel8963]

Ich dont think so. I mean Vanadium is an example of non abundant element and is expensive. In this case I could envision something like pumping the Mg and the Sb and solidify/freeze dry them (respective the MgSb alloy into solid) for storage. And later you can remelt them when needed Anyway flow batteries are a technology as batteries with certain pros and cons. You could also be tempted ot say that batteries are not going to make it because capacities are too small or materials too expensive. Also, cell voltage versus iR drop in the electrolyte I think is important for the overall efficiency. Molten salt doesnt have a high reisistance, plus as he said reaction velocities are much increased at higher temperatures and I really do think that a molten metal flow battery could eventually be one of many possible solutions

[@rRobertSmith]

Cost per kilowatt hour assembled and on site about the same as stored hydro, and much, much cheaper than lithium, SO WHERE IS IT? Follow up please?

[@Psi-Storm]

They had it at $500 per kWh in the chart for the whole system. That's what current LiFeOP4 battery systems are already selling for. With Lithium batteries still having a chance of a 2x improvement in the next years. They probably have to go back to the drawing board to get them cheaper.

[@krrk6337]

FYI 1. It takes decades to develop something from the ground up, from lab to manufacturing. Give it time. 2. This kind of batteries are most likely for grid scale. So I think it would be Powerwall < Flow batteries < Liquid Metal 3. It's mainly competing with pump hydro so stop comparing to other types of batteries. 4. When we can produce too much renewable energy and don't have enough storage this tech will be the only solution and that's a long way to go. 5. Oil companies can turn into energy companies by using this tech because these days they invest a lot in offshore wind turbines so it's unlikely for them to buy this technology out and throw it away just to stay in digging oil.

[@billdale1]

"Takes decades to develop"... yadda yadda... NOOOOOOO. The lithium ion battery was invented in 1980... they started powering smaller stuff--- cameras, Walkmans, radios, soon afterward, and have been energizing our cars now for nearly twenty years, and have been going through countless iterations of improvements the entire time, so that the most state-of-the art lithium batteries can power an EV well in excess of 300 miles--- my 2017 Chevy Bolt was good for 366 miles max when I got it 27,000 miles ago, well in excess of its warranted range of 238 miles, and is still well in excess of that. The newest Tesla Roadster, which is not yet released, has advanced chemistry battery packs, has a range in excess of 620 miles at highway speeds, has a 0-60 mph of 1.9 seconds--- there is no ICE car on the market that can come close--- and it has a top speed of 260+ miles per hour--- WITHOUT A TRANSMISSION, not even a reverse gear. No EVs require a reverse gear, because unlike ICEs, electric motors can turn backwards. No transmission means eliminating as much as 140 lbs. of weight, and a huge source of mechanical and maintenance costs, and reliability problems. I digress. No, progress with EVs, unlike ICE cars, does not require decades to show off enormous levels of improvement; in less than two decades now, EVs, batteries, ultracapacitors and EV electronics have already made them far more desirable, practical and reliable than ICE cars, and EVs are very close to being cheaper on the sticker price as well.

[@krrk6337]

@@billdale1 Wrong. Lithium metal based battery was proposed in 70's. John Goodenough further developed to commercial in the 80's. It takes few years in the lab to create something in "research" but takes decades to be "proven technology" and "commercial viable". And I don't get your other paragraphs. Those are just irrelevant.

[@JamesThompson-xl4yu]

On this cell, once charged how do you keep the liquid metal melted with no current flow as in simple storage? In the storage is there going to need a constant current flow , and would there be losses involved to maintain the charge ?

[@JamesThompson-xl4yu]

Yes but the question is how long can they stay hot and melted salts be viable if they were static with no charge or drain current ?

[@jwestney2859]

Wow, this makes a lot of sense. Clearly he has a challenge to establish a market for grid-tied batteries. But I don't see any flaws in his science nor in his business approach. When I listed to Elon Musk, I see flaw after flaw in his spiel. I am a harsh critic because I have a degree in science and a degree in business and many years experience. When listening to Professor Sadoway, the science makes sense. And the business plan makes sense. I am not sure how quickly he can create the market for grid-tied batteries, but I am willing to bet that this will succeed.

[@makonaima1]

@IThinkWithMy Dick Hope big brother don't smoke his ass first. Quite a few inventors of disruptive technologies have either mysteriously disappeared or died under questionable circumstances. The world NEEDS this so i hope he succeeds.

[@thomascoolidge2161]

Multiple electric companies are pushing to get tax credits for investing in energy storage. If the push goes through then he will have a market to sell to.

[@billdale1]

J Westney: you're a sad fool! Elon has already saved you and everbody else on this planet a fortune by making commerce virtually instantaneous, replacing a system that often required weeks for even the simplest transaction to finish before someone would ship you the widget you ordered (PayPal). That was his first multi-billion-dollar enterprise. Then reduced the cost of space launches by tens of millions per launch by finding a way of reusing his boosters, a system that the entire industry and even astronauts disparaged him for. "Landing boosters on barges at sea?!? Is he on ACID???" His second multi-billion-dollar enterprise that is saving EVERYONE big bucks by reducing such things as cell phone bills, and reducing the cost of gov't. Then he succeeded in creating EVs that within just a few short years were getting the highest ratings ever, from Consumer Reports and the NHTSA and others... cars the entire industry proclaimed were a laughingstock--- until, of course, he was receiving hundreds of thousands of orders, WITH HUGE DEPOSITS, WITHIN A SINGLE DAY... that is something no other product in history has ever done, before or since. He started Solar City, a fourth multi-billion-dollar company (which was since bought out by Tesla). He has started several other massive businesses since then, all of which are innovative and groundbreaking. You haven't mentioned any of your accomplishments... you are not mentioned in Who's Who... in fact, I can find no mention of you. So, tell us all about what breath-taking, daring entrepreneurial accomplishments you have made, dear sir? Billion-dollar companies? Ooooh, I thought not.

[@BerriBerriJam]

this makes a lot of sense to you ? whereas you see flaw after flaw in Elon's spiel? Tesla has been selling EV's, powerwalls, a battery factory of some sort all in the past several years whereas I've been waiting for Ambri to deliver something, anything for years. Not wanting to be demoralizing but it's a double standard when you put Sodoway on a pedestal and dump Musk in the trash. Two key vital stats that you should zero in on regarding Ambri's amazing batteries. 1. His conversion or efficiency is about 70%. I'm not clear whether that's one way or round trip. And because this is his basic energy conversion, his efficiency is as bad as a car engine. How do you ever overcome this deficiency? 2. His device needs to operate at about 400 degrees Celsius. Progress from the initial 1,300 degrees but nevertheless imagine having a 400 C furnace in your garage 24/7. Overcoming these two vital areas if your device has any moving parts means you'll have to be dealing with leakage. Over time, constant changes in pressure, temperature, chemical changes, you are going to have to address leaking. And indeed his coming out party more than 2 years ago was postponed due to leakage in his design flaw. I came to this site because it was the follow up site from the new CBC interview about his "new" device but disallowed posting comments. That interview is the one that had more holes in it than the spiels of Elon. Not any mention of whether and how he's been able to solve his problems.

[@jwestney2859]

Hey @@BerriBerriJam The approach that Sadoway described in the video makes sense to me. Grid-tied, utility-scale energy storage makes sense to me. Using chemical elements that are abundant and cheap makes sense to me. Developing batteries that have a useful life of decades makes sense to me. This is all explained in the video. I do not picture Sadoway's battery in a car, nor in you garage, nor in your cell phone, nor in anything with moving parts. I did not imply that, and if you inferred it, then you inferred incorrectly. HERE IS WHAT I DO PICTURE. I picture a beautiful, sunny island. Let's take Puerto Rico for example, generating electricity from sun, wind, and tide. And I picture each village having a storage battery big-as-a-shipping-container near the edge of town. I picture those batteries getting charged when the sun shines and when then wind blows. I picture a family as the sun goes-down, turning on their lights, cooking tropical dinner (yum), and streaming videos. They have energy when they need it: after dark. I picture this instead of the "old" model where oil is imported into San Juan, then burned in a turbine to make electricity that is distributed by high-voltage wires criss-crossing the island. I still picture some fossil fuel being used -- because buying enough batteries and solar to do the whole job would be affordable only for the richest people, and that is not acceptable. In tropical climates, utility-scale, grid-tied batteries can help renewables become the main-stay. That is what I picture. No offense to Elon Musk. Let him fill the garages of rich people with roadsters and lithium batteries. We will take renewables any way we can get them.

[@Reziac]

So why can't this be a battery in every basement, hooked to mini solar/wind on every rooftop?

[@--Valek--]

Because molten alkali metals getting accidentally exposed to oxygen would be a front row seat to hell.

[@zoki.to974]

@@--Valek-- how about no? arent they just froze if exposed to the air? even professor gave example of battery being shot with a bullet...

[@zoki.to974]

he said it could, but more efficient is if whole neighborhood is hooked to one battery bank...

[@BracaPhoto]

Ever heard of economy of scale?? Look it up... It'll explain why a bunch of mini things are not nearly as economical as fewer huge ones

[@Reziac]

While economy of scale is a Thing, it's also an It Depends. Economy of scale demands that we only use rail transport. Individual needs demand that we have the automobile. (First example that came into my head.)

[@kurtjensen7264]

I sure am glad that I am a super genius so that I can understand all of this.

[@martingrundy5475]

This isn't too complicated. It certainly doesn't take a genius to understand. Now, Dr Sadoway, the geezer talking on the stage, who was running the project, understands all this on a fundamental level and was instrumental in it's development. I dare say could be called a genius. Though I doubt very much he would consider himself to be so.

[@kokopelli314]

Going off-grid doesn't have to be expensive or complicated. It does require rethinking the way we use energy, particularly optimization of the way we use AC and DC. Off-the-shelf appliances are rarely energy efficient in terms of battery storage. DC appliances with BLDC motors are still a niche market, although with a little imagination, some skills and a desire any appliance can be reengineered to match generation capacity and form, including three phase. Conservation and efficiency are sadly lacking in most consumer electrical products, including electric cars. There's simply not enough grid capacity for a North American electrical fleet. The notion of a global grid is more science fiction at this point. A simple solution is to decentralize generation and rationalize consumption, in terms of capacity. There are loads of business opportunities out there.

[@billdale1]

Ken: you say EVs are not very efficient, and North American grid cannot handle the load. You are totally wrong on the first point... the typical EV is ~ 4 to 8 X more efficient than an ICE car; as for the grid capacity, you are missing the point, and are obviously not following what is going on. EVs actually ENHANCE use of the grid in a variety of ways. EVs are rarely charged during the daytime when load is at its maximum. They are charged at home, at night, when load is so low that EVs are being charged with energy that would otherwise go to waste. When energy use drops significantly at night, it is a serious problem for generating plants, especially coal generators. Such generators cannot start and stop at a moment's notice; battery backups, like the massive one Tesla just installed in South Australia, happen to be ideal for that exact function... they have kicked in within a few hundreds of milliseconds during a power failure, such that residents there were never even aware that it happened. In the months and years previous to that, massively disruptive power outages were common, and quite costly. When a power grid is robust, it does not crash as was typical in South Australia. But it is nonetheless a very problematical balancing act; when usage drops too low, generators cannot adjust quickly, and they cannot simply drop to any level desirable. If usage drops too low, the grid must literally dump excess energy into the ground--- gigantic terminals driven into the Earth take the excess energy, heating up the ground below with no end other than keeping the grid from crashing. I have two meters on the side of my house. One records the energy usage of my house; the other is a complex smart meter that measures not only how much energy my EV takes when charging, but what TIME it is being charged--- between 11pm and 7 am, my electricity only costs me 25% of what it would cost if I charge during the day. There is a third tier... between 7pm and 11pm, when rates are partly reduced. There are other sophisticated rate structures used by other utility companies in other counties and states. Another way EVs help out is called V2G, which stands for Vehicle to Grid. It is a system used in some areas and some foreign countries, in which the utility companies rely on EVs to back-feed some of their energy to the grid in the event it comes close to a blackout. It does not happen often, but on hot days or other times of excessive grid load, the utility sends a signal to the EVs that are online, asking for some juice. If the EV owner has his EV set to backload-- it has to be done with the EV owner's explicit permission--- the EV pushes energy back out to lighten the grid load, preventing a blackout. The more EVs connected to the grid, the more practical it is, and the EV owners are well-paid for the use of their energy. There is much more to it--- actually quite complicated, but relatively transparent to the EV owner--- but utility companies are quite relieved to have EVs on their grid, as it helps keep them from having to build very expensive new power plants, and the headache of finding places to install them in cities where there is no affordable real estate that is properly zoned and agreeable to nearby residents. No, EVs are NOT the problem you assume them to be, but a solution to many of their problems.

[@kokopelli314]

@@billdale1 try calculating the power demand of a completely Electric North American fleet based on a Tesla model three and the average miles/day travelled in the US. When you've done that convert gasoline energy capacity to M-joules to create a peak demand, then compare with the present energy peak generation capacity of the entire US grid. Its all on Wikipedia. My rough estimate was 14x the present peak load capacity. Either Electric vehicles need to get way more efficient, or there will need to be more generating capacity to offset fossil fuel energy input.

[@paftaf]

billdale1 Yep, very true. It’s amazing how much happened in the last few years. Every year we add millions of EV. Huge potential for SW controlled battery storage.

[@billdale1]

@@kokopelli314 you, sir, are busted... the proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing, doing your damnedest to spread disinformation and "fake news" about EVs, for the obvious purpose of keeping Americans addicted to oil, and to fatten the wallets of the oil oligarchs. Anyone who claims to be as well-informed as to direct readers to Wiki data to "prove" that EVs are a dead end, could not possibly have spent so much time reading up on electric vehicle tech without running into the term "V2G", which completely deflates any such misinformation you try to spread. "V2G", or "Vehicle to Grid", is a means for electric vehicles to be part of the solution of energy supply rather than part of the problem. It goes much further than just V2G--- there are thousands of people just here in the L.A. area that have been driving electric for long enough to show that EVs are sustainable and practical, and will one day soon replace the UNsustainable gasoline whose price can do nothing but continue to rise until it will eventually be too expensive for anyone to drive. I have been driving electric for more than.a decade and will never go back to fossil fuels--- driving without all that vibration, noise, oil changes, tune-ups, smog tests, noxious fumes while standing next to fuel pumps, and so much more. My money will no longer go to support people who are already drunk on money.

[@simonnnmnmb4282]

Are these actually deployed anywhere? And so like the Tesla grid battery in South Australia, how much would a similarly sized one of yours cost?

[@Billblom]

The numbers I've heard indicate that Tesla lost tons of money on the Australian battery. Given some of the numbers he presented (and by the way he DOES have prototypes running at this point...) -- The smaller cells with on-going stress tests showing the lack of degradation over cycles... I'd put the batteries in a shed in my back yard. The battery in Australia also doesn't really have the problem of cold temperature, where the LI batteries fail if you try to charge them below about 0 C. The solution there is electric heating. But that will take many watts of power.

[@wizlish]

@@Billblom Probably a better solution is a 'ground source heat pump' style loop combined with good superinsulation in the shed structure. For the running cost of a very small circulating pump with a fan on it, this produces reasonably consistent 55-56 degree at the inside heat exchanger; you could always use some of this as 'source' for a dedicated refrigerator-compressor-sized heat pump running as a "heater" only (no reversing valves and few potential failure points) if you need a higher rate of heat transfer to air.

[@Billblom]

@@wizlish The ground water is not very far down... Having a 5 to 7 ohm ground reading here (done with a megger) means the water is close by for heating and cooling. Keeping the system "happy" would be easy when the shed is well insulated. I had been looking at a vid where the guy that put together his battery system simply put the batteries in a well insulated box, and lined the box with some heating blankets that drew about 20 watts... The temp was set for 50 on them, so there would be no overheating because of the heat. (Along with a couple of thermocouples tied to a small computer that would turn off the power to the heating system). I need to look into a ground source for the house here.. the installation would be ugly, lawn wise, but would cut the costs of heating and cooling dramatically.

[@Kiyarose3999]

So we changed ALL Vehicles to legally need a Catalytic Converter(CC) that contains Platinum and what’s worse the CC’s only work once the engine has got to optimum temperature. Considering 80% of car journeys are under 3 miles means for nearly all journeys the CC is not only not working, but causes the vehicles to burn more fuel!. But besides that I’ve seen a couple vids on yt of people who have made Platinum free Fuel Cells.

[@Kezoman1]

How many of those 8'' battery canisters would be needed to power a Tesla for 4 or 5 hundred miles?

[@Piccodon]

...and the aluminum plant emits how much CO2?? Great presentation.

[@milcotto4153]

With all the heat being produced when you charge this battery (and as long as it is charged if I understand it correctly), couldn't you make some sort of stove out of it too? I need both heat and electricity. Would be great to get both in one package like that. A battery stove! :-)

[@josephstratti52]

The heat produced can be used to steam water and then turn generators as coal fired plants do.

[@jwestney2859]

Hey Zezizarjaars, thanks for comment. I am just hoping/ wishing for big improvements in battery technology so that solar and wind no longer have to depend on natural gas turbines when the sun goes down. I am interested in flow batteries, Ambri batteries, lithium batteries, or any battery that can overcome the limitations of solar and wind in providing reliable 24x365 power. Ambri batteries excite me because I think their technology is so elegant in its simplicity. I keep looking for current news about this battery. Sad that I never find any news.

[@roselineuduh2558]

I simply don't get how anyone in their right minds could possibly give this talk a thumbs down. Probably disgruntled competitors.

[@machtundrebel3127]

You probably assume he's telling the truth and he's very clever. But how do you know? What I know is that he's very wrong about LI-ION batteries so I'm wondering how much he really knows. He's good at selling himself and his ideas, but that doesn't say anything. I for one am very sceptical of the way he talks about himself mostly. I bet there are people who know more about it all than we do.

[@trevorfarren2186]

Fantastic lecture!

[@jamest.5001]

I was wondering if it is suitable for off grid solar power? I guess it would have to be used with hybro or wind turbines also. To keep it from cooling. If there is no sun for a while. And is there a minimum operating current? I'd like to have about 30 large cells , my off grid lithium ion bank is 29.4v, so I guess 28-29 cells @1v each? And at what cost?

[@strokex1]

noticed the video was made in october 2016, never heard of this since. now march 2019

[@maxsweetman6341]

Wonder why?

[@calvingreene90]

There is plenty of non-refrigeration long distance food distribution. Salting, drying, and canning.

[@timsteinkamp2245]

Parking lots use to be sized for Christmas shopping. That is why they are so massive. I don't understand this technology but there has to be other ways. Considering this is 3 years old I guess it is operational now but I'm still using a Trojan T105.

[@brucebrucestofiston5554]

Wonderful talk

[@brianevolved2849]

But smoke and mirrors

[@RonzigtheWizard]

I can relate to DONT KNOW WHAT'S IMPOSSIBLE. I started selling real estate and didn't even have a car yet I outsold the other 24 salespeople in the office. The manager called me into his office and asked me DON'T YOU KNOW WHAT YOU DID IS IMPOSSIBLE, WE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF A RECESSION AND THE REAL ESTATE MARKET HAS CRASHED? I didn't know that but since I outsold them before knowing it I decided NOT TO KNOW THAT IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE and I kept outselling the rest of the salespeople in the office for ever. So yes I can relate.

[@RonzigtheWizard]

I went from welfare to a millionaire in 10 years.

[@sschmachtel8963]

Exchange current density of i0=600 A/cm^2 is indeed freaking high. Yet whatever happens it more or less always boils down to the ohmic drop having an important influence if not being the most important contributor to losses. Is there any information on that? Also, what I wonder is if you could make a liquid metal redox flow battery. And ... Approach of "dirt to make it dirt cheap" is something that a lot of influential people and industry will find to be a convincing strategy ... well done!!!

[@ericmartin2470]

what about *Thorium* ? its abundant, local in the US, considered a by-product in US rare earth mining and the US has estimates of over 1000 year supply. the technology was tested, proven safe and reliable back in the 50s through to the 70s and killed by Nixon because he wanted bombs built in California.

[@DiHandley]

Eric Martin Thorium is perfect however you can’t get weapons grade plutonium out of it. That might be the answer.

[@ericmartin2470]

@@DiHandley Thorium reaction "burns" waste from our current nuclear reactors and is why you cant make bomb material from the by-products. the reaction is much more efficient and walk-away safe, meaning no melt-downs.

[@ericmartin2470]

a power plant can be the size of a small warehouse and can be modular, no need for long transmission lines, built near to where the power is needed and expanded as demand grows. i think its a perfect "stop-gap" measure and give humanity time to develop long term energy solutions. solar, wind and battery technology is not ready yet and may not be for a while.

[@user-py9cy1sy9u]

@@ericmartin2470 "Thorium reaction "burns" waste from our current nuclear reactors" Thorium fuel cycle is Th 232 + neutron -> Th 233 -> Pa 233 -> U 233 Our waste is mostly U 238 and Pu 239 and is nothing like thorium breeding cycle. It has nothing in common. "you cant make bomb material" U 233 is weapons material. USA and India tested bombs made out of this material and decided that Pu 239 is better material but that doesnt mean you cant make bombs out of thorium reactors. The negative is that thorium reactors would shut down if you take out U 233

[@ericmartin2470]

@@user-py9cy1sy9u A nuclear reactor consumes certain specific fissile isotopes to produce energy. The three most practical types of nuclear reactor fuel are:Uranium-235, purified (i.e. "enriched") by reducing the amount of uranium-238 in natural mined uranium. Most nuclear power has been generated using low-enriched uranium (LEU), whereas high-enriched uranium (HEU) is necessary for weapons.Plutonium-239, transmuted from uranium-238 obtained from natural mined uranium.Uranium-233, transmuted from thorium-232, derived from natural mined thorium. It is difficult to make a practical nuclear bomb from a thorium reactor's byproducts. According to Alvin Radkowsky, designer of the world's first full-scale atomic electric power plant, "a thorium reactor's plutonium production rate would be less than 2 percent of that of a standard reactor, and the plutonium's isotopic content would make it unsuitable for a nuclear detonation." Several uranium-233 bombs have been tested, but the presence of uranium-232 tended to "poison" the uranium-233 in two ways: intense radiation from the uranium-232 made the material difficult to handle, and the uranium-232 led to possible pre-detonation. Separating the uranium-232 from the uranium-233 proved very difficult, although newer laser techniques could facilitate that process

[@RobertSzasz]

A couple tons of molten lithium for a minimum comercial scale cell. What could go wrong?

[@hillmans69]

Actually Tesla has Li-ion costs around $100/KWh and Gravity Power is developing a vertical tunnel system that works in any geography including urban and uses no water during use and can store 2 GWh in a 7 acre site.

[@MitzvosGolem1]

This and ITER fusion will change the world. Shalom

[@FalbertForester]

I do disagree with his statement that all the pumped hydro we have is all we're going to get. There are plenty of water impoundments around that are licensed and built every year... and that's what pumped hydro is.

[@claudiomaiasantos]

I think he should look for countries with more political will than USA. Politics can absolute disgrace this projects merelly by oil company lobby, corruption and interest conflict.

[@ejazahmed4545]

Ambri battery when it will be in the market ?

[@DavidFMayerPhD]

At the current rate of progress, NEVER. Too many problems exist.

[@davidschwartz5127]

If the electrical grid was not designed around meeting peak energy demand it would blackout the whole country 2 times every day and hours to recover from it, unlike the highway overload causes a short delay. Great Lecture!

[@thomasmiracle7826]

Could you mix water with the salt ? And use metals that melt at low temperature as long as its melting point is under the boiling point of water if not water a liquid will work

[@islabonita4193]

Why this Technology is not being adopted Globally?

[@DavidFMayerPhD]

Because it DOES NOT ACTUALLY WORK. It sort of works. It nearly works. It almost works. But it does not REALLY work in a practical way.

[@RioSul50]

Awesome discovery! Not sure if these batteries would work in vehicles because of the high temperatures and the "sloshing" around causing other issues. Looks like a winner otherwise.

[@strictnonconformist7369]

Even with anything resembling “sloshing” keep in mind the density of what it’d be, and the lack of space to do so. It’d be easier to work with larger vehicles than smaller ones, due to the heat issues. Even then, if you really got worried at all about sloshing (and the specific gravity of the components combined with their natural chemical affinities seem to be self-regulating) it seems it’d be easy enough to deal with via a suspension system.

[@g.gibson7781]

What about employing a Stirling Engine to put all that lovely heat to some good use generating even more power.

[@flashforensics]

One CRITICAL aspect he did not mention...... Recycling....... his cell is basically PURE metals that can be refined easily.. without having to remove loads of toxic shit & plastics.... you ever seen recycling lithium batteries.... filthy time consuming work....

[@strictnonconformist7369]

And the funniest thing is, if these batteries never degrade, you’d only recycle them if you needed the materials for a different purpose. These batteries appear to have hit the limits of how stupidly-simple you can make batteries, with the biggest issue being you need heat one way or another, and insulation.