The Liquid Metal Battery: Innovation in stationary electricity storage

[@hjjung98]

I can see how much he is good at lecturing. Lecturing is not just delivering information but persuading people to think something in a natural way. I appreciate his lecturing.

[@foolishpride8411]

Xg

[@yoramalon5273]

Brilliant. I like this professor. He showed a picture of his students, giving them credit. I like his humility and witty speeach. A design where components of a past device design are emitted, is always a better design.

[@joabarrera]

I am amazed, how good he still is after 25 year of siting in 3.091 with him. Also realizing how much his style had rubbed on me. A true visionary, and true teacher, and true source of inspiration for other nerds!!! And impeccably dressed as always.

[@joabarrera]

@Antoine Odil BOTS from hell

[@gabriele7059]

With nothing else to lose. If I had to take Einstein or Sadoway, in our time it's Professer Sadoway. I've always gone back to 3091 courses to stay entertained. By far the greatest teacher of our era.

[@mikeofallon]

Agreed. Einstein borrowed from the work of predecessors like Maxwell without attribution.

[@matthewsemenuk8953]

I've been into the idea of large, safe dirt cheap power grid storage for years and can relate to a lot of this information (as a hobby). Great to see so many like minded people come from Toronto.

[@darkofius]

Even prof. dr. Sadoway will admit, since his first draft of liquid metal battery, a number of battery startups succumbed (GE and Durathon), fuel cells lost their pricey status, hydrogen analyzer are becoming competitive, and we all realized that it is not all gold even if it shines. It still takes formidable amount of electricity to electrolyze, but electricity is often getting descriptions: "low priced", cheap", "negatively priced", "abundant"...liquid metal batteries are in the funnel to conquer the markets in grid specific applications, and new generation on "...liquid metal displacement batteries..." batteries are surfacing as an alternative... I respect dr. Sadoway immensely. I wish his team the best...

[@clavo3352]

I like this comment. In your politeness you highlight the important criticism; the grid is not sustainable. We have power outages regularly in my oil refinery town. trees keep fouling 'the grid"! So; the problem isn't supplying the grid; the problem is the grid.

[@shawnnoyes4620]

Professor Donald Sadoway is awesome. He adds a strong dose of reality to the whole renewable and advanced nuclear discussion. I am a strong supporter of Ambri and wish them the best!

[@HermanWillems]

Problem is. Some people look trough it and see that sometimes people say something is reality. But it isn't. Stay critical ok. He speaks well and seems to be a good social convincing person. BUT always stay critical.

[@MrZnarffy]

@@HermanWillems Agreed. I like the idea of liquids in batteries since it allows long time use. I also think he is right, cheap, big and heavy is no problem for fixed installations. However everyone shouldnt think that now we can remove all base power and have all renewables.. The amount we need would just be too huge. But for everyone who wants to save on the electric bill, this is awesome.

[@shawnnoyes4620]

@@HermanWillems You should always be critical. Not a bad way to go ... What I find refreshing from his lectures is that you take away from his lectures that Lithium Ion Batteries are NOT appropriate for grid level storage. May be it is Malta’s Electro-Thermal Energy Storage System or Moltex Energy Advanced Nuclear Molten Chloride Salt Reactor running on spent nuclear fuel or all of the above ... the market is large enough ... the shame ... Lithium Ion batteries are sucking up all the research dollars and we know they DO NOT work for grid level storage ...

[@SimonRichardMasters]

@@shawnnoyes4620 well said

[@markfaas6793]

Love this! “If you want to make something “dirt cheap”? Make it out of “dirt”! Priceless!!

[@RyanGarcia27]

He reminds me a lot of Feynman, this was a real joy to watch and I am excited for this tech to become implemented at scale in the future.

[@Haliotro]

Lol Ambri is screwed. Hilarious that despite his focus on abundance in earth's crust, his solution was Bismuth... which is almost twice as rare as Nickel (the current limiting factor for lithium cells). Dunno what is in his chemistry C battery, but tesla 4680 cells are already about same cost $/kWh as this $75/kWh being proposed for their chem C stationary storage.... sry but sounds like Ambri is screwed

[@0Arcoverde]

@@Haliotro this what tesla said on a presentation to make people invest in their company

[@Haliotro]

@@0Arcoverde uhhhh no. Factual

[@joabarrera]

@@Haliotro Target pricing is just that, targets, I am the biggest Tesla fan boy, but that doesn't mean I want total technology dominance by one players. If Ambri does things well we should expect various recipes and a constantly moving target price. All tech has room from improvement.

[@Haliotro]

@@joabarrera hope so

[@timduncan8450]

I love your humor and unconventional (yet practical) approach!! Enormous capacity, small footprint, safe & economic storage is essential for unreliables (renewables) to work at scale. So 20% round trip (charge & discharge) losses. -What is the split? 10% in & 10 out or other? -How rate dependent are the losses? - What storage duration does this assume? Self discharge rate? - What percent of the normal temperature range does this use. Can duration be practically extended by more insulation? -Can external heat be added (process heat) to extend storage time? - If not external what electrical portion must be discharged to keep say double the useful storage time? -If it freezes with a full charge, sits 3 weeks or 3 years, does it still have a full charge when it is heated up again? -When heating back a frozen cell are the same charging parameters & equipment used? -Would a spherical cell be worthwhile to reduce cost of tank and insulation? -What is the hold up besides utilities not accepting life extrapolations? -What are the siting requirements and concerns? -Totally sealed? Or can they ever outgas? -How much/what kind of field Validation testing has started and is anticipated?

[@tonytone304548]

been listening for 20 mins and I already love this guy!

[@kathrynck]

When inventing, its important to have people present (who are not censored or browbeat) who completely fail to understand what's impossible in the current techno-scientific meta. You can't make serious innovations in what's possible if the conversation is dominated by people who are well trained in what's currently impossible.

[@MrDeicide1]

It's important to english

[@kathrynck]

@@MrDeicide1 I'ven't englished gooder in the life of mine! Seriously though, I don't really think in words. So sometimes it comes out in a verbose mess when i try to cram ideas through the verbal part of my brain. It's far worse when drunk or sleep deprived. But a rough translation of what i wrote (in fully caffienated form): "Lots of training in a field can put blinders on creative problem solving. So sometimes it can be helpful to have people who are less formally trained in a field present when brainstorming."

[@inotaarto8719]

@@kathrynck cram on you crazy diamond...

[@henryvalero9235]

@@kathrynck From Lil Giant I understood you the first time. There was nothing wrong with your English. Some people cannot read. 👍

[@stuart207]

When he said you could manufacture the battery virtually on site the money grabbing marketing guys will be upset. They will want to keep production at home and prices high. Limited availability available for a premium. Awesome presentation I wish them well.

[@TerribleP]

This man is not just incredibly intelligent, but also a fantastic persona - brilliant presentation skills. That was an absolute joy to listen to.

[@davefroman4700]

He has a product that is now proven to never need replacing. He does not NEED to compete with the price of Lithium

[@rogerstarkey5390]

I've not even watch the lecture yet and I saw the title was "innovation in *stationary* electric storage" It's not necessarily a direct competitor for lithium. I imagine as I watch the lecture I will see it's not meant for vehicle use?

[@bearup1612]

Dave Froman So were is the information . All I have ever heard is BLAH BLAH BLAH never seen or herd of a finished product

[@MsSomeonenew]

So far they have one pot that ran for 5 years in a laboratory, and they claim no degradation. It's only the first hint at something usable, but we really don't have any real product data, and he certainly would not be the first to oversell his own ideas. Hopefully it all works as claimed, but the first result is never the final one.

[@davefroman4700]

@@MsSomeonenew Wrong. They have a full sized model deployed already.

[@pierregoba5713]

@Brian Eitzen your not the target market, the target is states and countries. Not individuals, not yet atleast

[@ea3358]

27:50 Real Talk about publishing 38:00 Talking about Ambri versus 18650 Li-Ion I think they serve a different purpose. Li-ion is more mobility while Ambri is for grid level.

[@ericdew2021]

That's exactly what he said: Ambri for grid-scale storage. Li-Ion for mobility, although at the end of his talk, he did mention that Ambri has a group researching bringing their technology to mobile as well.

[@nicstroud]

What an inspiring lecture. Having never heard of Donald Sadoway before, I'm am now going to look up his online lectures. The half a dozen people not smart enough to tell the time, who ambled in after the lecture had started, didn't deserve to be there.

[@dewiz9596]

Nic Stroud : they probably heard his spiel from eight years ago. . . This guy is all talk, no action.

[@dewiz9596]

So, mister Toronto Sadoway. . . You’re like the Leafs. We’re still waiting. By the way, I have personally BURNED magnesium. High ignition point, lots of oxygen required. Duh.

[@PaulSebastianM]

@@dewiz9596 stop hating. You'll live a better life. Meanwhile this guy has a goal to help humanity in the long run and he's teaching and inspiring young students to continue to help humanity. There's nothing more honorable than that to me.

[@henriboersen4414]

I follow the professor from the begin of their battery project, he is superb.

[@hvodinh]

Why the knock on Tesla Giga Factory at 17:55? It makes battery appropriate for cars, with high energy density per weight and also per volume. And why the reference to the 2 steel factories?

[@mroberts63]

Thank you for your wonderful talk. The value of your grid scale electrical storage is fascinating. Your emphasis of contrarian pathway analysis is probably even more valuable. Consulting the status quo begets only itself. Absolutely wonderful. Thank you. The best of success to you, your team and company.

[@hermandejong4309]

A very interesting concept! I have a question on the choice of Antimony (Sb) for the bottom electrode. In the chart of the elements and their scarcity, you show that Li is a lot less common in the earth's crust then Magnesium so your point is that it is so common that it won't become rare and expensive due to rarity. You compare it Megamol-wise relative to silicon. Li has an abundance score of about 200 to 300 and magnesium has a score of about 600,000. So that is a good point. The cost of Lithium will go up as we need more because of scarcity problems that can be expected. At some point, the price has gone up too much for additional use and we will stop using more. Lithium is not really used a lot for anything else except (rechargeable) batteries and magnesium won't suffer this problem. But I was thinking what is the catch here and I looked at your element chart and yes you are using Antimony which is about 3 orders of magnitude rarer than Lithium. The lead only sits there for melting point reduction so it doesn't participate in the electrochemical reaction with the salt. Antimony is almost worthless because of no important applications so actually, it only sits in ore as impurities that have to be removed, but if it is 1000 times as rare as Lithium it will give you the same problem as Lithium but at a much smaller market penetration before Antimony will be becoming expensive because of rarity. You would need something with a higher abundance score then lithium to matchup with magnesium in your cell. Otherwise, your product would only fill a small niche in the market until Lithium technology would become cheaper or am missing something? I've tried to comment on an earlier talk published by "MIT Center for Transportation & Logistics" but they have trouble getting my question to you, so I posted it again here in a much more recent talk. Hopefully, Energy Future Lab can pass my question on to you!

[@hermandejong4309]

@beebee Certainly Antimony is poisonous but this is not for your cell and the element is now discarded as waist from coal furnaces and it is in almost every ore so it is in all mountains that are ore-waist. In this way it will never be discarded as it only functions in this rechargeable battery that is not for home-use but for large scale stuff so at end of life these will return to the recycling of the manufacturer who just reuses it in new batteries. My thought is that it is better to use Antimony in these systems then to discard it in the waist from mines and coal-furnaces.

[@hermandejong4309]

@beebee His technology is splendid so I dont think there are issues with that. It is just the abundance of these two elements (Sb or Bi) that throws sand in the gears of his scaling argument, unless he has inside information that one of these elements is much more abundant than the DOE chart shows.

[@atam3977]

As far as I understand Antimony is one of several metals that could work here. Perhaps for home use technology would have to be adapted to more common materials. Besides that, I think this is the right direction for renewables of the grid as well as for homes with PV. LMB technology has far more potential for future than Tesla's Powerwall based on li-ion. Li-ion has also other (than rarity of lithium) properties that don't fit for some applications.

[@williamarmstrong7199]

He is also wrong on the price v demand of Lithium. More manufacturing and extraction capacity has actually reduced it's price. I do jot expect any massive price increases unless some get rich quick idiots start playing with the price on the Futures market.

[@mikepict9011]

His pitch if more for the platform of a liquid battery then a specific anode/cathode material.... the future is liquid metal..... the terminators are here

[@barryanderson3480]

How about selling a DIY sheet for home construction/assembly complete with shopping list, I will definitely buy one.

[@jeffreybell8162]

Liked the presentation but mostly looking forward to install and see it in operation

[@MestreXian]

Best time ever spent in youtube!

[@kevinembling9859]

this man is totally brilliant and i do hope that he and inventions do go a long way !

[@darylrwallace]

How do we get more professors with this attitude on tenure?

[@dejayrezme8617]

The biggest problem in this is the "low cost" and profit motive. We simply can't afford to be greedy anymore. Do this or go extinct. Great video and great to see smart and motivated people working on this. I just hope patents aren't holding up these technologies entering the marketplace asap.

[@chrisgreen4786]

wish this company all the best.

[@victoriaballard7354]

Will this battery be compatible with existing home solar systems ?

[@jcjensenllc]

Still not commercialized, have to ask when, if ever.

[@Pomaco4U]

He said two more years of testing to get the data to prove to the industrie that they can do what they claim.

[@jcjensenllc]

@W N Tesla was able to crack that nut in Australia. Hopefully that will help.change the regulators mind. Although, until we change our campaign finance and lobbying laws I suspect not.

[@MoDa87]

Simply Human GE is building a new battery with undisclosed tech and supplied by a secret company in Australia. I have the feeling that Australia will be the testing ground for a lot of these new technologies.

[@psycronizer]

@W N yeah..same old story...you have a solve, and then the lawyers and pencil necks get involved..why ? because there's big money tied up in the status quo..same thing with the oil industry....if you go against the grain..you have some unexplained bad luck or a fatal accident....happens more than people think...

[@ejazahmed4545]

China will be in the market in 2020 .you are still taking.

[@Tommybena]

Plot twist: the terminator rises from the battery. Great stuff. Amazingly interesting, and aiming just right to the world's necessities

[@nabhay583]

So brilliant yet so simple!

[@MoppelMat]

is that molten salt not very corrosive? just wanna know if this is problem here and if not, why?

[@lakshitdagar]

I think all batteries have a salt based electrolyte and I haven't heard of corrosion problems in lithium ion batteries..

[@chadpurser]

How is the metal liquefied to kick start the energy flow, after the battery has cooled and solidified?

[@kedwa30]

Good question... it seems no matter how it's done there is an initial loss used to melt the metal. However molten salt batteries are in use on trains already so it's already proven that hot batteries are practical.

[@timothyhaug2060]

Electricity heats the metal

[@1Earl100]

@@kedwa30 What I missed is where do you get the 400 degrees Celsius to make the battery work? I apologize I just don't have time to watch this again.

[@dejayrezme8617]

@@1Earl100 In a commercial application where it gets charged and discharged daily it heats itself. So there is no energy loss and no cooling needed. I figure initially they heat it using resistive heating coils or maybe simply by charging it. Probably the efficiency starts very low so a lot of heat is produced.

[@david203]

@@timothyhaug2060 I think you mean electricity fed into the cell. Is this a guess?

[@alpha123-g1i]

Battery tech is a really exciting topic to keep track of. Will be seeing massive progress there sooner than we think

[@demoncloud6147]

@12:34, "A battery is not a voltage device, it's a current source". Love Professor Donald Sadoway sarcasms, the best, his voice reminded me about the online course I did with his lectures on solid state chemistry in 2013 (edx)

[@darkofius]

I have to praise professor dr. Donald Sadoway for not giving up, definitely, battle with time is ravaging, a lot is at stake. I like his approach, but as it stretches the rollout time scale on trust that high temperature sealing and the like issues have been also rolled away, one hopes to the best, timing is often all important.

[@kevinembling9859]

my background is in large power generation and it is good that the system uses DC for large scale storage and inverters to change it back to Ac for distribution

[@TasteMyStinkholeAndLikeIt]

Always nice to see technologies that we can enjoy 50+ years from now

[@TasteMyStinkholeAndLikeIt]

Puc Yu Yours would make a great license plate

[@davidwilkie9551]

Waiting to see. ----- Because at every level of the development suggested in this lecture, mining refining and methods of vastly improved management, this is the transformation of technologies required to reindustrialise globally.

[@CapitalWheeler]

Scale up to municipal or industrial?

[@SantaBarbaraAlberto]

Awesome! Couldn't agree more to simple common sense such as using cost as a constraint in the design process. In the real world, we called it, design to cost (DTC). Loved it! He is into something here. The future is here in this spot of electro chemistry.

[@gabebabe1]

Is nobody at MIT capable of turning up the mic volume? And where are these batteries - Sadoway supposedly had this working many years ago? Why are they not in use?

[@schsch2390]

deus ex machina? OTOH Li development started over 30 yrs ago.....

[@scotth9397]

How does this energy storage compare to liquid oxygen energy storage, redox flow batteries or solid state batteries, especially molten salt batteries?

[@strictnonconformist7369]

I’m working on a radical city design concept that asks the question: what efficiencies can you achieve, and resiliency and reduction of failures and failure modes if a city were all built under a common roof and structure, but not a high-rise building? This includes transportation as a major part of it. An all-indoor city (with oodles of greenspace) all connected by a single roof would benefit greatly with grid energy storage, and a large single building with all facilities inside would invariably generate a lot of heat you could put to effective use as a result of scale, and liquid metal batteries meld nicely into that situation.

[@JustNow42]

It seems to me that I have heard this quite a number of years ago. We need to se these batteries in function soon.

[@Radio_FM_3123]

Do anyone know why the CD disk in this size? Because it has to fit the full Beethoven Symphony No. 9 in it. (referring to Dr. Sadoway talks about the VHS at about 0:39)

[@saddle1940]

I wish I'd been there to ask questions, like: The energy to melt the metals and losses into the kiln bricks, is that the 20% loss? Does the loss occur as a part of the charge-discharge and is unavoidable (like resistive loss)? Could Aerogel padding on the outside make a significant difference to the losses or does that make it worse because you need to lose the energy to stop boiling? Does the product heat cycle during use? Will the fire bricks be the first failure point? (I've worked in foundries and these bricks do soak in metals over a period).

[@jimswenson9991]

If the battery is cold the salt is solidified, and high-resistivity, and the resustance generates heat, whether charging or discharging.

[@toptobottom247]

I'm confused about the part where he dissed Tesla about the battery chemistry they are using but later was saying his setup is too heavy to use. Did I miss something?

[@davemwangi05]

Oh, he meant that his balls are too heavy, it's why he's walking funny.

[@TerryPullen]

You're a dog, how can you type?

[@istvanmakai280]

Awesome concept. But I think the time has come to present a working prototype, like the TESLA. It is a very correct critics of the LiPo cells that their grid scale opportunities are limited... ... but they are now working too.

[@movax20h]

They do have prototypes and commercial demonstrator units for at least 3 years. There are some issues with a design. Efficiency is actually lower (about 80% at 0.2C), but if it is really cheap, it doesn't matter.

[@strykerace]

@@movax20h I am reading their commercial demonstrator isn't coming out until 2020 as they had some issues with seals to correct that took them years to solve. Ambri is way way behind, probably missed the boat as there is already proven tech in place with Li-Ion utility scale batteries.

[@MoDa87]

Stryker Ace if the price difference is big enough it does not matter. 75 USD is super cheap.

[@Nissearne12]

We need to evaluate all new solution now. No times to wait, it doesn't cost much to test lot's of solution now in the beginning of energy transition era. What cost humanity is if we miss some great new tech solutions. All on now for a while, time will tell what the best solution fits in different situations.

[@joabarrera]

@@MoDa87 We estimate that teslas is now under 90 USD/kWh other wise the cars can't be as cheap. So although I love Sadoway, sometime great ideas get chased out by good enough. Maybe, Ambri need to a revamp and get to 50 USD/kWh....plus if a tecnololgy can be stable for 20-30 year that also have a very different set of economics that play in their favor.

[@MHasan-sx1vr]

Sir how do I find pros and cons for different topologies of the connections of the cells?

[@jalalabdallah7879]

it is very good, Prof. Sadoway , you are great Teacher Like R. Feyman , but you are also very good inventor too!

[@sgouletas1]

What is the impact of Maxwell's dry cell battery on comparative cost of production with your metal and salt battery?

[@MindeyI]

Exactly why we should develop our own world models, disregarding some of the existing theories. New ways to look at things is the true learning. :)

[@hemantmudgil726]

can we add a gyroscope to avoid mixing chemical in any shaky events

[@nabhay583]

mixing doesn't matter, they'll separate because of their densities anyway

[@charlesashurst1816]

Where is it? Where is the grid level storage? Big things were about to happen in 2012. Where is it?

[@saltspringdesign]

I remember meeting this fellow in Kensington Market, Toronto, ages ago, there is certainly no mistaking him, he's such a personality. I was a prof of computer graphics at the time at another university in TO.

[@joabarrera]

he is Canadian

[@CapitalWheeler]

So in smelting we heat the ore with electricity. Now we can store electricity with heated metal. Very elegant

[@NoToPCBS]

Great stuff and because this is so resilient, could it be used to capture lighting strikes. It looks to me that it needs a shed load of energy to get it up to operating temperature and lighting could do that.

[@budirving7007]

the audio is not adjusted so that i can hear it. so i doubt that you can do what you say in the video.

[@ZubairKhan-vs8fe]

Yes. Very brilliant. His first presentation was 9 years ago. Hasn't yet produced a penlight battery. But got lots of money in investments.

[@cavemancaveman5190]

Enough heat for cogen?

[@richardharries5551]

Is it feasible for another old geezer to build one of these at a smaller volume, and if so does anyone have any suggestions please? I live by the ocean so can pick up plenty of sea shells to crush for calcium and lead can always be found, so it's the building of a safe container about the size of a door and roughly a foot in depth which I'm hoping will safely add some heat to my ancient house, suggestions please...

[@Meditatum101]

21:45 relevant part starts

[@onmyleftmind9627]

The entire thing is relevant

[@parrotraiser6541]

Interesting point at the end of the talk about the value of teaching a subject to enhance the lecturer's knowledge.

[@malikacamus8084]

Note that French energy giant Total invested heavily in this project initially so big oil companies etc are not always competing against alternative energy projects like Ambri's as everyone constantly claims.

[@o1ecypher]

you need to turn up the mic please

[@Mavendow]

You know, he didn't just invent a new battery, he invented a new way of thinking about electrical storage. "Be realistic, ask for the impossible... _And sometimes, with enough ingenuity, the impossible becomes the inevitable."_ If his battery technology takes off, I think that last sentence is going to become a famous quote, like in history and science books.

[@theicedragon100]

could you construct these batteries on a large scale? like a conventional energy gentation.

[@firstnamehidden6514]

Great presentation but I was somewhat annoyed, but certainly not surprised to see that at such a supposedly learned assembly, no-one was apparently smart enough to dim the ceiling lights that were wiping out the projection screens, especially the largest central screen! Seems they might need to add 'Light Switches -101' to university level curriculums.

[@rdkater]

they had to much stored energie.

[@ascott6804]

Also thought the same! Lol

[@WJV9]

I imagine they had to fight over light switches with the video cameraman who wants more light to get blur-free images with his camera.

[@nickboylen6873]

Punctuality, too - apparently some are too smart to read a clock...

[@garyray2404]

we can't see the forest for the trees, I do not claim to be as smart as any of you guys but too me I believe the lecture was for the students in the class room and video was a second thought after some one realized that they wanted to capture this guy giving the lecture... so on a tripod on the steps in the corner some one videoed the lecture in the rawest form... we are blessed to have the info... but I agree with you the lighting sucked for us internet viewing audience... I still loved.

[@larrytroy3758]

Nothing stays hot... so there must be a cost or negative impact to keeping the storage hot.. there must be a cost to start the storage... what is this compared to storage or output.

[@vsiegel]

Good points. I wonder whether it can be started by itself if it is charged, by melting only a small part and then connecting both poles, heating it from it's own resistance. Maybe it needs a lot of electrical energy input to start it up.

[@omsingharjit]

Wow , i found his teaching so inspirational to me . And many of his thoughts similar to mine 🤔 Technical and Non technical

[@DeliciousDeBlair]

In theory this arrangement should be very close to perpetual/indestructible as long as you can always keep separating 100% of the alloy, or maybe even just keep a functional level of the original free metal. However... is the 20 cents per Kw/h a perpetual, never-ending cost of battery operation? ~( ,m,)~

[@rajneeshshetty1198]

nail polish remover is a liquid too

[@kevinembling9859]

even better when he answers the questions from the audience

[@chrisfrancis4478]

Inspiring lecture. Liquid metal's 80% efficiency is equivalent to vanadium redox flow batteries which operate at ambient temperature and enjoy similar no-fade properties, though they do need the membrane between the electrolytes changing if it leaks (estimate 15-20 years). VRFBs can similarly be charged and discharged 100% and can have their capacity increased simply by increasing the volume of vanadium stored. The engineering challenges of VRFB seem easier than liquid metal and more suited to low-tech installations. It will be interesting to see which becomes the VHS.

[@ratfacekick]

$1300/kwh vs ambri's projected $17/kwh.

[@CapitalWheeler]

Electric properties change with temp?

[@Soothsayer210]

I am a Canadian, I thought this was a very, very promising technology. Since this thing works on hight temperature, would it have any negative effect on performance in cold countries like Canada? (I am sure Donald Sadoway would have thought about that since he is also from Canada). is his company on the Stock Market?

[@hermandejong4309]

I know he has at least a few shareholders that invested, but it's probably not large enough for trading at stock markets. The temperature becomes less important as it gets larger, but he also has insulation and the cells produce heat while cycling. It works as long as it is molten and the melting-point is lowered by alloying with Lead, so it will stay liquid for longer, but if after days of no use you would want to use it you have to preheat one cell in the middle and use that to melt neighbor cells. Putting it under ground could also help against cold but extra wind-proof insulation around their shipping-containers will also increase the holding time for molten reuse. But at some point they will turn too hot if you keep increasing insulation.

[@jameshoffman552]

Herman de Jong - I wonder how his $100/kwh target is viable given the limits to use cases based on heat and size

[@hermandejong4309]

@@jameshoffman552 As far as I can see he just uses large steel cans that form the electric contact for the bottom. he uses an unspecified isolation material to separate the sides of this can from the three layers and the can is closed wit a lid that contains a ceramic separated feed-through to contact the top layer. the salt extends both ways if he extracts energy and the reverse process eats up the salt. this is not 100% efficient but for a full charge and discharge 25% is turned into heat that you need to keep everything molten. He also wants to conserve heat so the isolation material is also insulating probably due to foamy structure. He explicitly said that he sees it as energy storage for large scale as solar or wind but I think it will be good for solar in cloudless areas to allow storage for the night were during the day you can charge your storage and every night you can almost deplete it. In places like Germany wit dominant PV it could get foggy and zero wind for a week and you would be screwed. When the fog is gone after a week you have to restart the storage with heating, as I don't think it will stay hot for a week. So that's why I think it will solve energy problems for arid cloudless places but those are not very numerous. Now size works in his advantage because larger cells are cheaper to produce per unit of storage capacity and larger unit require less production steps to put together into larger units. compare Musk's Lithium battery that heat production does not allow for larger units, so his packs all have to be welded together in parallel and series and he has to always allow for cooling-strips, so his fit in between so they never overheat. the only thing that becomes cheaper if he can run his machines faster to produce more of the same units. now for a car you might be able to afford that type of effort but for localized storage you just need the lowest possible price by scaling. he uses the losses for keeping everything inside the cell molten. he doesn't care about heat he loves it, but Elon's batteries explode when they get hot. If they could allow heat it would probably scale to larger cells but it can't.

[@hermandejong4309]

@@jameshoffman552 I'm not a financial expert. I can say that his internal thermal range of the cell is huge, as molten materials that are covered by Argon gas nothing goes wrong bellow about 1200 centigrade and even then no considerable pressure builds up only some metal contacts might sag. As long a he insulates the metal cans from the melt and that is easy with foamy ceramics and other materials applied in furnaces. I did not find specs for the insulation. I guess by making things bigger it is easier to conserve heat as content (mass) scales with the cubed of size and exterior area scales with the square of size, that is if the insulation thickness is the same. I would keep everything closed when inactive but use convection to remove excess heat. It is possible to keep space tight so convection is hampered but it can accelerate above a certain temperature threshold. Only go for passive cooling as all fans have maintenance issues.

[@jamesclark45]

So climate change? Are you kidding? Did you notice that yellow ball up there?

[@ErikPukinskis]

Presentation starts around 22:06 and ends at 41:14. The rest is mostly trashing other researchers and setting the terms of the economic debate.

[@Will-W]

He comes across as a bit of an asshole. But I still like his idea. I wouldn't want to work for him, but I'd consider investing in the company if I had the capital.

[@klausbrinck2137]

@@Will-W He isn´t any of that, but just a scientist trying to solve a problem, insteat of trying generating profit. There is value in thousand more places than just in profit... A person like Elon cannot know that (missing education), he is a trador, trading values, generating profit, is all he can, and, most of the times, this isn´t simply useless, but even harmfull...

[@Will-W]

@@klausbrinck2137, nah, I stand by my statement, he is confident to the point of arrogance and bragging. His tech is sound. The lecture was informative. As I said, I like his idea, and I would be willing to invest in it if I weren't poor. I don't state that lightly. I dislike gambling. If I'm acknowledge that I would put money into something it means I REALLY like/believe in the idea. That said he still seems a bit of a dick. I wouldn't want to work for him, or go out for drinks, but I can still appreciate his knowledge, drive, ideas, and effort. The man has far more education than I do, and I'd be willing to bet he has a few IQ points on me as well. Credit where it is due. But humility is not something he has an abundance of.

[@thebotformalityknownasdale2564]

As a canadian i hate to say this but i agree with you and he did not need to bash others even if is or was deserved i would have a lot more respect for him if he stayed on the higher ground

[@manupupule]

big cheap and not efficient for storage volume per pound weight is a great idea for land-based batteries but, if you need something to fit inside a car and get 400 miles to the charge you may need exotic minerals and that's ok just be sure that 100% of the batteries are collected after the car is dead and those batteries are recycled and the rare minerals extracted . in this regard the Giga factory is smart not dumb. however you are correct about using abundant materials for land based storage systems where space is no concern.

[@strictnonconformist7369]

The funny thing is, it IS space-efficient overall, but just not light, but being “light” isn’t important for stationary power grid storage, so just make it cheap and long-lived/reliable with (apparently) no meaningful failure modes. Lithium-ion batteries have horrible failure modes, sounds like these batteries would require very meaningful efforts to cause problems.

[@tortysoft]

It's so good to hear this sort of presentation. I lecture and I too do my best to think on my feet but be honest when I have no answer. I found out this is not standard practice. Giz a job !

[@Wookey.]

The ability to say 'I don't know' when you don't is a very important indicator of competence (and confidence).

[@machtundrebel3127]

Not saying anything rather than making up stories is even better, though. He's telling a fairytale guys.

[@dicoll]

I was surprised that, among all the cost calculations, there was no mention of the need for rectifiers and inverters to charge and discharge the battery.

[@strictnonconformist7369]

As much as that’s true, anything other than perhaps pumped hydro storage has exactly the same requirements, as I’ve yet to see a battery naturally store and output AC power.

[@WJV9]

Same is true for solar cells, they put out DC only, so they need inverters as well. Also since solar/wind are intermittent you need low cost, long lived, reliable long term storage, that can accept very high charge/discharge amperage without shortening the life of the battery. Unfortunately Lithium-Ion cannot be charged/discharged very rapidly without shortening the life of the battery. Also as any laptop/cell phone user can attest, the Li-Ion battery will lose charge over time and will also lose ability to store full charge after several thousand charge/discharge cycles. This liquid metal battery has the potential to last longer and store very large amount of KWH's at a lower cost than Li-Ion. The weight is not important for stationary applications. I think the potential is huge and is necessary for solar/wind power grid applications.

[@CapitalWheeler]

Hind sight is so intuitive. A parallel may be how water conductivity changes at high steam temps

[@2011betterman]

Best Professor!

[@davidcox8961]

Is this still a work in progress or it ready to be deployed? Can anyone tell me if this technology is ready for action?

[@machtundrebel3127]

Not gonna happen imo. Hes a showmaster alright.

[@davidcox8961]

@@machtundrebel3127 There must be something to it or Bill Gates would not be giving him money. Lithium Batts are not the most suitable for grid storage.

[@machtundrebel3127]

@@davidcox8961 Not necessarily. It's like a startup. You give it money to develop and hope it will succeed, but most likely it's a bust. Not everything Bill Gates supports is a success.

[@davidcox8961]

@@machtundrebel3127 You make a good point. Do you have the technical knowledge to say one way or the other? I sure don't. Everyone seems to have an opinion but I am looking for an educated opinion. No disrespect toward you intended.

[@machtundrebel3127]

@@davidcox8961 No I don't. I can only wait aswell. Different topic: What I find highly interesting are flywheels! Have a look on yt for modern ones, they do have a lot potential, I believe! Or at least they are very interesting and easier to understand. //edit: This video is very educational: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bomVhmqYebOWhq8

[@OzzieWozzieOriginal]

Then to date, why has anyone not constructed this battery storage behind some supermarkets so that it can have alternate supply when there is a blackout??

[@affordablesolarguy]

I started a youtube channel on clean energy and organic gardening. This lecture is so refreshing. Finally, a man who knows he is battling a capitalist system who's only real objective is profit, despite the pollution and danger involved. We really need to stop the Lithium Ion monopoly, there are much cleaner, cheaper, safer and more abundant elements , such as the salt water battery (or blue battery) which anyone can make at home. Lets not stop one pollutant and just begin another.

[@martymcmannis8662]

In the beginning,there was sound... We never had to look past that. Thanks God

[@DeviantDeveloper]

Where the 4K at? It's 2019, my iPhone has had 4K for years.

[@UnicyclDev]

The Deviant Developer iPhones have never had 4K resolution screens.

[@richardpetek712]

Would you have any more information if it were 4K instead of HD?

[@incognitotorpedo42]

Maybe your high-dollar iPhone has 4K, but a lot of people don't have both the device resolution and the bandwidth. Perhaps more importantly, maybe they should work on lighting and presentation before pixel overload.

[@Frogman214]

Is compressed Hydrogen gas good for Grid Level use? And, storage for future use? Then why not generate DC current supplied from a solar array to an underwater plasma or arc to split water molecules and create H2, capture it, and use immediately or store as compressed gas and use when needed?

[@idiotbox4180]

Being the smallest molecule, H can leak through almost any containment, making short term storage most attractive. But an extremely efficient energy medium.

[@david203]

Hydrogen gas doesn't normally phase change to liquid when compressed, so it would be a poor energy storage medium. Plus it leaks easily and can be explosive when mixed with air.

[@Frogman214]

@@david203 Thank you! Is it possible to use capacitors to store enough free energy to strip the hydrogen via arc underwater, capture the gas above but use it immediately? Don't know how this would balance out just an idea guy here.

[@david203]

@@Frogman214 Seriously, to be an idea guy you can't just guess at things and use words that don't express complete ideas. I really can't guess as to what you mean here, nor do I wish to enter into a public conversation with you to find out. To really create useful ideas, get training in the field in which you wish to contribute. I wanted to help make quantum mechanics easier to learn, so I took some online QM courses to complement my basic education in physics in college, started understanding the subject, and now I can sometimes make a useful correction or contribution here and there.

[@Frogman214]

@@david203 Thank you and thanks for your contribution. There are many inventors in history that had no idea, where their ideas came from. Some of these ideas ended wars. Maybe there's a collective in the quantum world where sometimes things bleed through to even layman. Have a great evening and no need to continue this public dialog.

[@barryanderson3480]

Two years from production in Jan 2019, so hopefully we will get it all next month in Jan 2021.

[@cavemancaveman5190]

Five months?

[@Web3Dre]

What kind of salt was he referring to?

[@scottfrost5310]

How does the size go from cubic feet to cubic meters? They must of meant to show CF instead of M3

[@michelangelobuonarroti916]

must of?

[@en_coded]

where is it? is it still in drawing stage?

[@jairo8746]

He said in the video it needed 2 more years and 25 million to gather more data.

[@rokadamlje5365]

Yeah, i heard about this like 8 years ago.

[@МихайлоСєльський]

Still on talking stage, I'm afraid.

[@pierregoba5713]

Its doing cycle and durability test. His selling to govt not individuals so its a different requirement all together as he said they want 5 to 10year actual data. Not data projections

[@KingLutherQ]

Big flaw in Bloomberg's chart at 39:00 - Tesla batteries are already close to $100/KWh by the end of this year - not by 2026. Maxwell has demonstrated a path from Tesla's current energy density of 210 Wh/kg to 300 Wh/kg. Theoretically could go up to 400 Wh/kg. Sadoway's battery is at $75/KWh - the most economical if it's available today. But a 300 Wh/kg Tesla battery could cost around $60/KWh. So, when Sadoway's wet battery comes out after five years, Tesla's dry battery would already be in production too. Tesla's advantage is its speed of innovation and manufacturing experience. A 16x improvement in Tesla's production capacity from switching to Maxwell's dry electrode technology would be hard to beat.

[@fireteamomega2343]

So you made a battery that only operates at 800 degrees Fahrenheit... seems like alot of energy waste is involved. Could have a use as an efficiency cycling system in high temperature ovens or thermoforming.

[@roddoney7568]

The very end as he speaks about continuing learning is so, so, true! Never stop learning while teaching!! I love all the mentors I've had through my life.

[@naasikhendricks1501]

Where can I get the Slides?

[@AspartameBoy]

Al + H2O very explosive.. how is this safe?

[@lakshitdagar]

no

[@stardusttwo6262]

The professor is wrong about the gigafactory, they make 21700 cells there, not 18650.

[@jkgrey3067]

panasonic rents space to make them in the gigafactory

[@RonPaulgirls]

HE ALSO SAID THERE ARE 8 THOUSAND CELLS IN A TESLA, MORE LIKE 4441 DEPENDING ON SIZE, I DON'T KNOW WHERE HE GOT 8K, HE'S PROBABLY WRONG AND THE DUMMY STUDENTS DIDN'T CALL HIM ON IT

[@jamesclark45]

You are joking, right?

[@richardpetek712]

You are arguing over a small detail.

[@stardusttwo6262]

@@richardpetek712 , you are right it is a small detail and I should have added that I enjoyed the talk that Donald Sadoway gave.

[@klind57]

I wish you would start looking at Super capacitors. it makes a lot more sense to get the megawatts out of those.

[@matsv201]

Super capacitor make sense for energy output upp to about 3 minutes. For anything else, they are not economical. At 5 minuets using half capacity of a LTO battery is way cheaper. For power output of more than 10 minutes LFP become cheaper.... Then over one hour lead acid or even just going to generators are cheaper.